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SWATJester posted:Ugh, there's nothing more annoying than self-righteous cat owners comparing surgical declawing to chopping off a child's fingers (hint: not the same thing). You don't condemn parents for getting their children's wisdom teeth taken out. Declawing is not so different. Wisdom teeth can cause all sorts of pain, mouth problems and damage to existing teeth if they aren't removed for some people, that isn't a good comparison. That said, my own cat is declawed because an ultimatium in my house was made over declawing him or getting rid of him.  My dad is not the most sensitive type with animals.(this was before I was aware of softpaws and cutting nails never crossed my mind) Our cat is fine, but I'll feel guilty about it for the rest of my life. I'll always see declawing as a very last resort.
Kerfuffle fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Apr 15, 2010 |
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Apr 15, 2010 16:47
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Kerfuffle posted:
I don't fault people when they are literally backed against a wall on the issue. It sounds like you didn't have a choice. I wouldn't berate you for that. I don't completely fault people for their ignorance on the matter, either, which is why I think places like PI are a great and important way to become informed. When someone has all that knowledge, though, and they still think its ok, it boggles my mind. I had cats that were declawed when I was younger and living with my mom (she was simply ignorant about the procedure - this was like 20 years ago). I think it's a horrid thing to do when it's simply for the owner's convenience and vanity, because there are better options. Apartment manager makes you declaw? Don't rent there or adopt a cat that's already been declawed. If your furniture is so pristine and awesome that you can't bear it getting mussed, then don't get pets (or kids for that matter). My beef with it is that the alternatives to declawing are easy, FAR cheaper, and overall better for the cat's health. I have yet to see any rational argument for declawing a cat in 99% of the cases where its done. It takes me literally three minutes or less to trim claws, and once trimmed, they pose no threat to the house. Quite frankly, it's the OTHER stuff pets do that tear the place up worse (puking up hairballs, deciding that their pristine butts can't stand the litter box, so pooping on the floor, knocking crap over, etc). I should probably let it go at this point, though. I fear I'm horribly derailing this thread, even though it was pertinent to the question posed by the cat owner above.
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Apr 15, 2010 16:57
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Kerfuffle posted:I didn't think it was the same either until someone posted a chart that shows exactly where they cut. It really is cutting off a pretty large part of their finger bones. I cringed looking at it and it's not even graphic, it's just like a scientific chart with a line that shows where the cut is made. No, it really isn't.  A proper declawing looks like this. It is the equivalent of removing a bone spur. It's a simple cut with a laser that removes the bone, severs the ligament, and cauterizes the wound in one go. Some vets use the old way (a pair of sterile clippers) which has a high risk of post-op complications -- this is bad and they shouldn't do it. Other vets perform a tendonectomy where they don't even remove the bone or claw at all, simply remove the tendon that allows the cat to extend them. RheaConfused posted:Can you talk to us about what you tried to keep your cats from scratching you? Why you came to the decision to declaw? I tried soft paws, I tried sprays, I tried training with shakey-rattly things and squirt bottles. Neither of my cats are particularly keen on being held -- the girl is squirmy and has better things to do, and when she wriggles she uses her claws for traction. The boy was abused when I got him from rescue, and has always been upset about being held. It's taken me 3 years to get him to the point where he's comfortable with a belly rub. After several months (also keep in mind that I'm mildly allergic -- I can deal with fur, but getting a scratch causes serious inflammation) and lots of accidental scratches with not much progress, I was at the point where it was seriously dampening the enjoyment that I got out of my cats. So I made the decision to get them declawed (front legs only). I researched the procedure, found the best and most advanced vet hospital within 3 counties from me, and took them over. I picked them up the next day, and even with the fentanyl patch the kitties were running around and jumping on stuff without any real discomfort. Whoever it was that asked for facts: http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.2001.219.932 quote:Cats had improved limb function immediately after unilateral laser onychectomy, compared with onychectomy with a scalpel, tourniquet, and bandage. This improved limb function may result from decreased pain during the 48 hours following unilateral laser onychectomy..... No cats required rescue analgesia during the course of the study. http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.228.1.65 quote:Objective—To evaluate signs of postoperative pain and complications after forelimb onychectomy in cats receiving buprenorphine alone or with bupivacaine administered as a 4-point regional nerve block. Around 75% experienced no post-operative discomfort. This is consistent with a claim of "vast majority". Also, this is with a manual forelimb onychectomy as opposed to a laser procedure, which typically has less discomfort and pain. http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.2004.65.1276 quote:Use of pressure platform gait analysis in cats with and without bilateral onychectomy etc. As for the zero chance of regrowth claim, because a tendonectomy does not remove any bone, there is no opportunity for regrowth. QED.
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Apr 15, 2010 21:02
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Like I said, I don't believe it should be a first option. But I think if owners have tried various measures to mitigate the problem, without success, they should not be stigmatized for electing to declaw their cats.
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Apr 15, 2010 21:03
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SWATJester posted:No, it really isn't. Every vet I know believes that tendonectomy is much worse, because you are removing the tendon that allows them to control the claw at all, not just extend them, but RETRACT them. Causing many future accidents where claws are caught and ripped out. Also, this is not the equivalent of removing a bone spur. That's just pushing it. edit: You declawed your cats so you could force them to sit in your lap without being upset. To get "belly snuggles." No wonder your cats were scratching you.  edit 2: Also, THIS! Straight out of ole wikipedia, facts you did not post: Performing a tendonectomy on a cat is an alternative to onychectomy ("declawing") which severs the end of the digit. Tendonectomy may be considered less painful for the cat than onychectomy; however, it is not recommended by the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA). In the tendonectomy, a small portion of the tendon in each of a cat's toes is surgically removed to prevent the cat from being able to extend the claws. Unable to extend the claws, the cat is no longer capable of scratching. Claws will continue to grow following tendonectomy, and because the cat can no longer extend the claws to scratch, the cat will not wear down the claws as before. Therefore, among other considerations, the cat owner should evaluate the ongoing maintenance required in the form of regular claw trimming thereafter when considering this procedure. In terms of studies on the impact of onychectomy ("declawing") versus tendonectomy, the American Veterinary Medical Association reported, in its August 1, 1998 issue, on any major complications and drawbacks among the two operations. Their report included pain, future complications, and owner satisfaction. Cats who underwent tendonectomy displayed significantly lower pain immediately following the procedure versus those who underwent onychectomy ("declawing"). However, both procedures showed an equal frequency of other complications, such as bleeding, lameness, and infection. Cats took the same number of days to recover from both operations (as measured by normalcy in walking), and owners were equally satisfied with both options. One complication to watch out for later on in the cats life with a tendonectomy is the nails getting brittle. Nails that are more brittle are prone to spliting and shattering when trimed by the owner which is quite painful for the cat RheaConfused fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Apr 15, 2010 |
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Apr 15, 2010 21:46
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So you are severely allergic to cat scratches and were picking up and holding cats that hate to be held? That's why they were declawed? Am I missing something here?
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Apr 15, 2010 21:47
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SWATJester posted:Like I said, I don't believe it should be a first option. But I think if owners have tried various measures to mitigate the problem, without success, they should not be stigmatized for electing to declaw their cats. I don't know, I think a lot of them should be. You're allergic to cats, even if only mildly. Why did you decide to adopt cats with issues when there was a high risk of being scratched, which sets you off? Even if you did try to correct the behavior with various methods, you probably shouldn't have adopted cats in the first place because of your allergies, especially when your ultimate solution was to mutilate them. You made a poor decision regarding animal ownership, hth.
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Apr 15, 2010 21:48
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SWATJester posted:
Did you ever try trimming their claws yourself? What about getting them trimmed at a groomer/vet (they do that, right?)? Not trying to nitpick, but that's the one you haven't mentioned.
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Apr 15, 2010 21:50
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And I'll post what follows in the wikipedia article after the AVMA statement you posted earlier that wasn't posted. The American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) policy statement on declawing states: "There is no scientific evidence that declawing leads to behavioral abnormalities when the behavior of declawed cats is compared with that of cats in control groups."[10] The most recent and most long-term study found that 33% of declawed cats developed behavior problems after surgery. 18% of cats had an increase in biting habits or intensity of biting after being declawed. [11] In another study, 16% of declawed cats developed behavior problems, and more declawed (55%) than intact (45%) cats were referred to a vet teaching hospital for behavior problems. [12] Eleven cats (4%) developed or had worse behavior problems post-operatively. Despite positive attitude toward declawing, 5 clients reported that their cats had developed litterbox and biting problems.[13] Behavior problems are a primary cause of cats being relinquished to shelters. In one study, when all factors were accounted for, overall odds of being relinquished to a shelter was almost double for declawed cats as intact cats (1.89 compared to 1.00). Inappropriate elimination was twice as common in declawed (52.4%) as intact cats (29.1%). [14] How old were your cats? Despite the clear ethical guidelines given by the AVMA, surveys suggest that 95% of declaw surgeries are done to protect furniture, and 76% of cats are declawed before 8 months of age, which precludes any serious effort at training or use of other non-surgical alternatives
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Apr 15, 2010 21:57
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RheaConfused posted:Behavior problems are a primary cause of cats being relinquished to shelters. In one study, when all factors were accounted for, overall odds of being relinquished to a shelter was almost double for declawed cats as intact cats (1.89 compared to 1.00). 
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Apr 15, 2010 22:01
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Crooked Booty posted:Maybe this has nothing to do with the actual declawing, and it's just that people who declaw tend to be assholes who care more about furniture than cats. I know 
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Apr 15, 2010 22:04
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RheaConfused posted:Every vet I know believes that tendonectomy is much worse, because you are removing the tendon that allows them to control the claw at all, not just extend them, but RETRACT them. Causing many future accidents where claws are caught and ripped out. Weren't you the one who called me out earlier saying "Just because you had this experience with your cats does not mean it is the rule. " I don't know what vets you know, nor if they are any good. I do know that the governing medical journal for vets has not produced any research supporting your statement (also research that blatantly contradicts the assertions you made about biting earlier, but lets not let that stop anything either, right?) quote:Also, this is not the equivalent of removing a bone spur. That's just pushing it. Actually it is when you look at the amount of bone being removed. But nice that you can say "that's just pushing it" while your side freely compares it to wildly amputating entire body parts. quote:edit: You declawed your cats so you could force them to sit in your lap without being upset. To get "belly snuggles." No wonder your cats were scratching you. What the gently caress is wrong with you, this isn't even remotely what I said. quote:edit 2: Also, THIS! Straight out of ole wikipedia, facts you did not post: HondaCivet posted:So you are severely allergic to cat scratches and were picking up and holding cats that hate to be held? That's why they were declawed? Am I missing something here? Yes. A lot.
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Apr 15, 2010 22:05
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RheaConfused posted:And I'll post what follows in the wikipedia article after the AVMA statement you posted earlier that wasn't posted. Once again, these statistics support my position. 66% in one study had no behavior problems, 84% in another, over 80% having no change in biting habits. Not to mention, when you get off Wikipedia and look at the actual journal articles that are being cited, the numbers and research are strongly in favor of no link between behavior problems and declawing. That's, you know, why the AVMA released the statement saying such. "There is no scientific evidence that declawing leads to behavioral abnormalities when the behavior of declawed cats is compared with that of cats in control groups.". As for my cat's age: they were over 1 when I had the procedure done. Leif. fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Apr 15, 2010 |
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Apr 15, 2010 22:07
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Yep, same old thing. edit: SWATJester posted:
Pretty sure I didn't misunderstand. RheaConfused fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Apr 15, 2010 |
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Apr 15, 2010 22:11
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Crooked Booty posted:Maybe this has nothing to do with the actual declawing, and it's just that people who declaw tend to be assholes who care more about furniture than cats. Heh, don't even get me started on the number of people who have animals they don't deserve even a little bit.
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Apr 15, 2010 22:12
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-e- deleted rant
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Apr 15, 2010 22:12
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My cats keep scratching me when I try to snuggle them and rub their bellies. So rather than not snuggling them and rubbing their bellies, I'm going to cut their toes off.  Yep, makes perfect sense to me.If your cats aren't keen on being held... DON'T HOLD THEM.
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Apr 15, 2010 22:16
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Abbeh posted:My cats keep scratching me when I try to snuggle them and rub their bellies. So rather than not snuggling them and rubbing their bellies, I'm going to cut their toes off. How would you recommend I trim their claws then? Obviously the solution is I should get a cat and never touch it again ever. Forget it, you people are loving idiots. God forbid someone present and factually support an opposing viewpoint to your worldview. Obviously the answer is you should twist their words around and stigmatize them.
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Apr 15, 2010 22:19
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SWATJester posted:How would you recommend I trim their claws then? Obviously the solution is I should get a cat and never touch it again ever. Well, you never answered my question from earlier. Did you ever actually try using a claw trimmer and, you know, trimming them? Edit: You know what I find interesting? Some of the pictures from the place where he linked the source image. One of them calls it "feline [b]digital[/i] amputation." Funny, because I believe that's the comparison I drew right before I got called crazy. But no, no, of course I'm wrong. Amputating digits and removing bone in a cat is clearly not the same as amputating and removing bones from another mammal. Auracounts fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Apr 15, 2010 |
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Apr 15, 2010 22:21
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Or getting a scratching post they liked? Some cats like wood, some like rope, and some like cardboard. And my cat likes my chair, but whatever, it's a chair. vv I guess I lucked out since mine take care of their nails without trimming. Sometimes Ed looks bored and starts chewing on hers - I think she got that bad habit from me. Abbeh fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Apr 15, 2010 |
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Apr 15, 2010 22:22
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SWATJester posted:How would you recommend I trim their claws then? Obviously the solution is I should get a cat and never touch it again ever. Well, you see, lots of cats tolerate being held once every few weeks to get nails trimmed. I have one that will stand it just that long, because I slowly got him used to it. Effort. Time. That's how. LOVE. See, and you were worried about US calling YOU names. BUTCHER!!!!!11111!!!!! 
RheaConfused fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Apr 15, 2010 |
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Apr 15, 2010 22:25
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Abbeh posted:
Oh wow, I thought only my Yuuda did this. He chews up his claws to shreds. It's so weird. None of the other ones do it. He's also incompetent at nail biting. I swear he only makes them sharper with lots of tiny razor blades, instead of just the one. I HAVE to trim the others, though. Whenever they knead, walk over me to get to their destination, or do anything for that matter, they poke the crap out of me. I only really need to trim them like once every week or two. They haven't been too bad with scratching furniture anymore, but I wonder if its because of the newer furniture I got. I got some micro-fiber sofas and I can't really tell if they just dislike scratching it, or if it's just more durable than my former cloth couch, a small part of which did get shredded up. It's cool, though, I'm pretty sure the SO and I did more damage to that couch than the cats ever did.
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Apr 15, 2010 22:39
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SWATJester posted:How would you recommend I trim their claws then? Obviously the solution is I should get a cat and never touch it again ever. Wrap cat in towel, extract one limb at a time. This also works if the cat flails or bites when you trim their claws. I have one cat that'll lie on his back and purr while getting a claw trim, and another who usually gets burrito-d.
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Apr 15, 2010 22:44
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SWATJester posted:How would you recommend I trim their claws then? Obviously the solution is I should get a cat and never touch it again ever. My mom is afraid to trim my cat's claws so she always just took her to the vet to have it done. I think it's like $10 a go. I guess that eventually that would end up being more expensive than the surgery? I don't really know what you're whining about. You came here looking for a fight, you presented a lousy personal anecdote and the same statistics everyone here has already seen a billion times and then tried to claim that removing bone isn't removing bone. Sorry your argument wasn't terribly convincing I guess?
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Apr 15, 2010 22:49
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SWATJester posted:No, it really isn't. Yeah I don't know that still looks pretty painful and major to me. I see there have been lots of posts and I've said everything I have to say about declawing. I don't think you shouldn't own kitties or anything like but, but in your case, in the future if you get anymore cats, you should look into adopting cats that are already declawed, there's a lot of them. I didn't know people could be allergic to cat scratches though.
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Apr 15, 2010 22:54
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SWATJester posted:Forget it, you people are loving idiots. You were doing so well until you called everyone idiots. I get what you're saying though, and if you and your cats are happy and healthy then whateva's cleva. It most likely is a much better life than what they would have had. Arguing on the internet is stupid anyways.
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Apr 16, 2010 04:19
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All this talk makes me feel bad about us getting one of our cats declawed. However, she's polydactyl on her two front paws, and if I remember right, she has fifteen fingers between them. It was my mom's decision because she was afraid of ruined furniture. In the long run though, and it's likely a flimsy excuse, we potentially avoided serious injuries as a result of the deformities. They could have easily snagged on something and been ripped out. I also didn't really know about the dangers to declawing or how inhumane it was until a few years ago. She is a really happy cat except when my sister comes around if it makes any difference.  We haven't declawed a cat since her though, and it's been nine or ten years and we've had seven or so cats in that time (we did a lot of rescuing).
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Apr 16, 2010 10:07
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I'm shortly adopting an adult cat, which will mostly be an indoor buddy. In all likelihood, the cat will be over 7 years old, but I'd really like to leash-train him. Does anyone have any hints, tips and success stories in leash-training older cats?
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Apr 16, 2010 14:44
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Transmogrifier posted:All this talk makes me feel bad about us getting one of our cats declawed. Eh, don't feel bad about it, what's done is done. I don't know if I'd want to have to keep track of 15 claws on my front paws, either, haha. At least you know now to give it serious thought before you or a family member has the surgery done on another cat. I think fewer people would get it done if they knew more about it, really, but it's not always easy to get the real story on animal health matters. LargeHadronColada posted:I'm shortly adopting an adult cat, which will mostly be an indoor buddy. In all likelihood, the cat will be over 7 years old, but I'd really like to leash-train him. Does anyone have any hints, tips and success stories in leash-training older cats? Firstly, I hope you plan on getting a cat harness or walking jacket and not just a collar and leash. Cats are too good at getting out of collars and they can be injured by them. If you need help picking out something for your cat, people in this thread should be able to point you towards a good product. As for training, you'll probably have to take it really slow. Don't take him outside with it until you have been able to get him comfortable wearing it indoors over the course of several increasingly-longer sessions. He'll probably just sit like a lump on the floor acting like you stuck an anchor to his back at first. Try to play with him with his favorite toy while he's wearing it, that should help get him up off the floor and help him forget the harness is there. HondaCivet fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Apr 16, 2010 |
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Apr 16, 2010 14:45
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Transmogrifier posted:All this talk makes me feel bad about us getting one of our cats declawed. 15? O.o loving FIFTEEN? Good god, that's a lot of toes. It seems almost common to hear of kitties with 6 on each paw, so twelve, but fifteen? Wow. My mind is blown. Don't feel too guilty. I think a lot of people a few years ago were more ignorant about the subject. I know I was. So was my mom. We had declawed cats years ago, too. I only get mad when someone knows better, has all the information, then does it anyway. Auracounts fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Apr 16, 2010 |
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Apr 16, 2010 15:36
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New cat!   I've named her Abby and she's chilling in the laundry right now, she's very loving but she seems to have no meow!  She's four years old and exactly what I was looking for personality-wise. Now the fun begins! Well, in a few days as she gets used to the house slowly.  Then comes the harness and the vet! And so on. Yaynewcat!
inky101 fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Apr 17, 2010 |
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Apr 17, 2010 04:58
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inky101 posted:New cat! I dunno, doesn't look like they even cleaned her up before they handed her over. She is clearly an orange cat covered in soot . . . or perhaps a black cat with Cheetoh dust smears.
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Apr 17, 2010 07:56
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inky101 posted:New cat! Looks like Abby got into the bleach. 
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Apr 17, 2010 19:23
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So we recently got a cat, a very sweet ~5 year old thing that is probably part manx as she lacks the full tail. She's great to have around and is settling in well, but at times her behavior is kind of odd. She'll be very friendly for a period of time, jumping into laps and purring like drat machine, and so forth. Sometimes, however she just seems to get very defensive for no real reason and will swat and hiss at you if you come near. What throws me is that she doesn't display any other signs of fear or anger during these hissing periods. Her ears aren't laid back, her hackles aren't raised, and weirdest of all she'll sometimes immediately resume purring and being sweet right after she hisses. Like, within seconds. It is confusing the hell out of me, because I've never owned a cat that hisses with so little provocation, and return to a mellow state so quickly after getting aggravated. She doesn't have any diseases or behavioral problems that the people we adopted from were aware of. We only just got her last week, so I assume it's an adjustment thing and she just needs to get used to her new home, but I'm still worried. Any thoughts on this?
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Apr 18, 2010 11:07
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Seoinin posted:So we recently got a cat, a very sweet ~5 year old thing that is probably part manx as she lacks the full tail. She's great to have around and is settling in well, but at times her behavior is kind of odd. She'll be very friendly for a period of time, jumping into laps and purring like drat machine, and so forth. Sometimes, however she just seems to get very defensive for no real reason and will swat and hiss at you if you come near.
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Apr 18, 2010 16:43
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Abbeh posted:gently caress my couch. It's never once come running to the door to welcome me home, or played with me, or anything fun. On the other hand, my couch doesen't scratch the hell out of me when I sit on it
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Apr 18, 2010 17:20
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This is probably a really stupid question, but I'm pretty paranoid when it comes to my cat. I've got a rescue kitten who's about ten months old. We just moved to a three-story rowhouse type of thing from an apartment, and she's just now getting supervised outdoor time on porches and balconies and such, because there's really nowhere she can get to from either of those and she seems to like chasing leaves. Out in the back, she hasn't had a problem yet, runs around happily and tries to see out the cracks in the fence. There's a balcony going off the master bedroom that I've let her out on once or twice as well. It has a solid wall going around it about three feet up, with nothing within ten or fifteen feet that could possibly be seen as something to jump to. Problem is, it's third story, and every time she goes out there she jumps right up on that wall and starts pacing back and forth/leaning over to try and sniff the tree ten feet over. She's supervised, but if she loses her balance I sure as hell don't have the balance to try and catch a falling cat. There's a couple tree branches on the way down, but other than that it's three stories straight to concrete/the roof of a car. She seems super-coordinated on the stairs, and I've actually even caught her hanging upside down twenty feet up from the bottom of those, and walking around on the railing inside the house that's just about as high up, which makes me think she's probably okay on that balcony railing, but I'm still worried about her falling off the drat balcony. My own fear of heights probably isn't helping this any. Is she likely safe up there, or should I not let her out on the top floor balcony even with supervision anymore? And, if she were to fall, would she wreck herself as badly as I'm imagining? As bribery for helping, here's the little rear end in a top hat in question:  Bonus shot because I like showing her off/also the lower balcony where she gets to play: http://i42.tinypic.com/midor8.jpg Also, is her head ever going to get bigger? edit: I'm an idiot and this is probably in the wrong thread. Originally thought it would be a good question for the FAQ, sorry if it's misplaced.
Daemoxx fucked around with this message at 10:39 on Apr 19, 2010 |
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Apr 19, 2010 10:36
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Cats fall off of balconies all the time. I definitely wouldn't let her jump up on the wall.
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Apr 19, 2010 12:46
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You are right to be paranoid. Cats are pretty talented when it comes to balancing on tiny stuff but they still can screw up, and it only takes one time to seriously injure or kill her. I too have a tinyhead cat. I do not have much hope for his tiny dumb head ever getting bigger. His brother has a big head so I think he stole tinyhead's head size in the womb.
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Apr 19, 2010 15:52
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Got it, cat's not going out on the top-floor balcony unless I rig a way to keep her off that railing. She should be fine on the stairs and stuff, right? Highest drop there is about fifteen or twenty feet, and it's all carpeted. I really don't have very much way to keep her off of those, because it's in the middle of the house and her current favorite spot to play.
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Apr 20, 2010 03:17
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