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Tolain posted:whats the average pay look like in cambodia? Vietnam seems to be 19-$35 if you have a TEFL, so I'm considering getting one as soon as I head back to the states and then returning there. But Thailand and Cambodia are also really appealing to me. You can do a TEFL cert in Thailand, there are a number of different schools offering them. I went through one that was accredited with the State University of New York system four years ago, it was a good mix of theory and practical experience. The instructors were all very professional. I think Vietnam's probably one of the better paying countries in the region on the average. When I was in Phnom Penh the expats I met were saying around US$10/hour is a fairly standard rate, although it could have changed since then. Also curious how you're making out, Astian!
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Apr 17, 2010 22:41
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Anyone do any trekking in SEA? The kind where you go out on foot in the woods and camp and poo poo for a few days. It's something I wanted to get into here in the states but haven't gotten to it yet.
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Apr 18, 2010 06:38
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Tolain posted:whats the average pay look like in cambodia? Vietnam seems to be 19-$35 if you have a TEFL, so I'm considering getting one as soon as I head back to the states and then returning there. But Thailand and Cambodia are also really appealing to me. Vietnam is easily a better choice from a financial perspective. Cost of living is cheaper and salaries are higher--though your quoted figures do seem a bit much. In Cambo with a BA+TEFL you should make a minimum of $8/hour, unless you're black or otherwise undesirable. Some schools pay less by the hour, but their schedules include less teaching hours, paid holidays, etc., so it can be hard to judge by the hourly rate. I make $10 per teaching hour. I know women who make more than that without a BA, but it is much easier for women to find teaching work here. The best language school I know of here pays $16 per teaching hour. If you have a PhD, the school I work for will pay you $20 an hour to teach something vaguely related to your specialty. I highly recommend that you take your TEFL course from a widely accredited provider in the country that you wish to teach in, rather than back home. 1: You will learn specific cultural and linguistic difficulties you're likely to encounter. 2: You have a chance to acclimate before you start work. 3: You will have an instant social group, which can be nice in a new country. This is providing you're lucky enough to have cool classmates. Ringo R posted:What is it teaching like in PP? Was it hard to get the jurb? What are the students like? I'm really enjoying it for the most part so far. My "University" is full of silliness and inefficiency and some of the textbooks are absurdly useless, but the department head is a pretty sane and helpful guy who allows teachers some freedom in developing curriculum, for the non-BA courses at least. I started applying for jobs in the middle of the term here, and got this job about a week and a half after I dropped off my CV. I have no doubt I would have eventually been able to land something, but I think I was lucky to get a position mid-term. For the most part, the students are an absolute joy. In general they're much more focused than Thai students, even more respectful, and very smiley. Strangely enough, my high school classes last term were more disciplined and earnest than my Uni-level classes. These 13-16 year olds actually forced themselves to speak English in the classroom--an awesome experience for a TEFL teacher. Of course there are some bad apples, but they are usually just sullen and silent. The ones who speak out in class and have "attitude" here are just fun, and easy to incorporate into the lesson, and/or get the whole class to make fun of them. And ReindeerF, re: teaching in Myanmar--Yes I am seriously interested. If it's not too much trouble I'd appreciate any info your friends could provide, or if they have links to other resources, etc.
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Apr 18, 2010 06:44
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Haggins posted:Anyone do any trekking in SEA? The kind where you go out on foot in the woods and camp and poo poo for a few days. It's something I wanted to get into here in the states but haven't gotten to it yet. I did that (with a guide) in the Northeast. What do you want to know about it?
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Apr 18, 2010 07:39
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Hopefully not beating a dead horse here... I've been trying to get a handle on the visa situation in Thailand and from what i understand, no visa needed for a stay of less than 30 days. I am planning on staying in Thailand for a little over a month, and for that it appears I need a visa? Is this something I can get at the airport? Do I need to show a bank statement or anything along those lines?
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Apr 18, 2010 19:55
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Smokie posted:Hopefully not beating a dead horse here... I've been trying to get a handle on the visa situation in Thailand and from what i understand, no visa needed for a stay of less than 30 days. I am planning on staying in Thailand for a little over a month, and for that it appears I need a visa? Is this something I can get at the airport? Do I need to show a bank statement or anything along those lines? 1) Come to Thailand, stay for 29 days and take a "visa run" which is basically a trip to the border and back, where you'll get either a 15 day or 30 day stamp depending on who says what. Or fly out and back in and get another 30 days stamp. 2) Get a 90 day tourist visa in your home country. 3) Come and stay until your visa's about to run out and then go to the immigration office and get a 7 day extension. Most work now is the tourist visa from home, but it's the cheapest in the long run and the easiest once you're here. If you do get one and you'll be coming back through Thailand consider getting a multiple entry. The visa run is totally do-able and a common occurrence. It requires a few hours each way in a crowded van or bus, but it's cheap and will only take you about a day - of course you have to pay for your visa in the country you briefly enter too. As a side bonus it's a good excuse to take a trip somewhere you wouldn't have gone, so a visa run can become a three day trip to Cambodia, for example. No bank statements, no nothing. If you re-enter by land you're supposed to show proof of onward travel, but I've never heard of this happening. The only time I've ever been asked is by the departure airport in a foreign country. I wouldn't sweat documentation. Just bring your passport and some money and the immigration form they give you to fill out.
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Apr 18, 2010 20:22
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Excellent. A visa run would be a very convenient way of allowing me to go check out Bali : ) Trip has been booked, I'll be in Bangkok May 23rd.
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Apr 18, 2010 20:46
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Sheep-Goats posted:I did that (with a guide) in the Northeast. What do you want to know about it? Was it fun? Did you get to see some cool remote places? Do they provide gear for you?
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Apr 18, 2010 22:42
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Haggins posted:Was it fun? Did you get to see some cool remote places? Do they provide gear for you? I went on a hilltribe trek. It was a four day trek but we did it in three (at my request). These things are very flexible and I went in the off season so it was also pretty cheap -- I don't remember the price exactly but I think it was like 2500B food included for the three days, the guy said he was just doing it to get out of the office and break even and honestly he couldn't have made much on that. During that time of the year he would have been up for guiding whatever -- jungle camping, waterfall excursion, probably a loving monkey hunt for all I know. At night we'd find a hilltribe village and he'd arrange for us to stay in one of their houses. As for gear there isn't much you need for the jungle. I wore pants and a long sleeved shirt and these were fairly high mountains for Thailand so even mosquitoes weren't much of an issue. I had a small school sized backpack, the heaviest part of which was a 1.5L bottle of water that I'd picked up in town. His pack was slightly larger as he had a machete in there plus a couple of sleeping mats and sheets and probably a little more than half of the food. You don't need much gear for the jungle. You sleep comfortably in your T-shirt. If you need a roof there are banana trees all over the place and you can get a couple of leaves and make yourself something decent in a few seconds. The main thing is building a little sleeping platform so you don't have bugs running all over you all night, but again, with a machete and thirty minutes you can whip one of those up with what's lying around on the jungle floor. The guide that I went with also does jungle subsistence camping treks where he shows you how to build all of that stuff if that's what you're interested in, but compared to the woods in Montana (where I'm from) camping in the jungle seems like a pretty happy-go-lucky affair. Instead of "always be prepared" the jungle more or less provides everything you might need short of medicine and a rain slicker and hiking shoes. The hike started in the jungle outside of Mae Hong Son (extreme NW of Thailand) and we went basically along the Thai/Burmese border for three days, finishing up in a national park. We didn't see another person while we were moving through the jungle for all that time, though, of course, we stopped in six or eight tiny rear end villages (like, four to ten houses) and a couple of farms along the way. There was a lot of cool jungle stuff, big plants, steamy Rambo valleys, picking up little mangoes and munching on them along the way (there was so much fruit just lying around in the jungle that the monkeys would just take a single bite out of each piece and then toss it). There were a few times when we could have stepped over into Burma but the guide wasn't too hot on that idea as both spots had Thai army outposts looking over them as, maybe 15 or so years ago, they were trafficking routes for heroin and/or meth and he didn't want to explain what we were up to to a bored, semi-ignorant mountain Army official. We spent one night in a Red Karen encampment and the next in a Hmong village. The Karen people had tasteful little gardens around their houses and bright clothes and acted about what American folks would act like if you were staying with them on a homestay -- friendly, not at all intrusive. The Hmong village was half emptied out as all the younger people went across the border into Burma to a larger village (the one I stayed in was only four houses) for some kind of seasonal celebration. The old men that had hung back were smoking opium in one of their houses when I got there (distinct smell) but didn't want to much to do with me so I just hung back and took it in (also I was pretty tired as we'd just done a day and a half of hiking and had to double back once because a burn had knocked down enough bamboo over the regular route to make it impassible). In the morning some people were coming back and one dude saw that there were guests in the village and ran all the way up the mountain in his loving flip flops so he could chat with us a little bit before we set off. It was also probably one of poorest groups of people I've ever seen -- two of the men were wearing the pants the a highschool in Thailand gives you and they were probably in their late 20s (they'd stuck around to mind the old men), one of the guys built and impromptu forge in the morning and beat a piece of scrap iron into a hoe for the rice/veggie field (it's worth it to him to do that rather than buy a hoe that probably would have cost only three or four bucks in Thailand). It was one of the more memorable parts of my two years in Thailand. I don't remember the name of the outfit but I'd recommend them, I also went on a couple of shorter excursions with my guest house operator (also a guide) in Mae Hong Son (one of which involved him giving alms and washing an old shaman ladies hands since the shaman lady had helped his wife give birth while she was on a trek up there, and the custom in the village dictates that the husband has to wash the shaman's hands before she can return to doing her regular household work in that situation). The place I went on the longer trip with had an office next to the little lake in the middle of Mae Hong Son town and were recommended in the Lonely Planet guide, so they probably won't be hard to find, but I had good experiences with the other operation too so it's not like if you can't find them you won't have fun. Treks out of Mae Hong Son are better than those out of Chiang Mai as Chiang Mai does too many of them for too many tourists and, therefore, you get more hokey poo poo (HURR ELEPHANT RIDE RIVER RAFTING HURR) and end up in villages where, during the high season, tourists come in and out fairly regularly. raton fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Apr 18, 2010 |
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Apr 18, 2010 23:18
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Sounds like a lot of fun and something I'll look into doing when I get there.Sheep-Goats posted:The guide that I went with also does jungle subsistence camping treks where he shows you how to build all of that stuff if that's what you're interested in, but compared to the woods in Montana (where I'm from) camping in the jungle seems like a pretty happy-go-lucky affair. Instead of "always be prepared" the jungle more or less provides everything you might need short of medicine and a rain slicker and hiking shoes. Good to know, I was worried about having to stock up on gear. Now I also know why, in Cannibal Holocaust, the group's guide only went into the jungle with weed, cocaine, and a rifle.
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Apr 19, 2010 02:07
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Sheep-goats, you spent two years in Thailand? Do you have a blog or post somewhere recounting it?
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Apr 19, 2010 02:35
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Broohaha posted:Sheep-goats, you spent two years in Thailand? Do you have a blog or post somewhere recounting it? I lived in Thailand from 2003 to 2005. No blog and I didn't post much when I was living there.
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Apr 19, 2010 04:54
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Where do I look/who do I talk to about getting travel insurance? I'm only worried about health while I'm over there and covering my ~$5000 from breaking/getting stolen. I got my gear insured in the US with Metlife, I guess I can ask them about covering my trip. As for health do I really need to worry about covering evacuations to the US? While I'm in SEA I won't have a home or health insurance in the US. One thing I really don't need is a refund if I have to cancle my flight. I'll have plenty of time and can always reschedule the flight if something happens.
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Apr 19, 2010 21:30
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I think we need a Visa FAQ in the OP...
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Apr 19, 2010 22:11
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Haggins posted:Where do I look/who do I talk to about getting travel insurance? I'm only worried about health while I'm over there and covering my ~$5000 from breaking/getting stolen. I got my gear insured in the US with Metlife, I guess I can ask them about covering my trip. As for health do I really need to worry about covering evacuations to the US? While I'm in SEA I won't have a home or health insurance in the US. Evacuation to the US, not really (unless you want body repatriation; I think it's dumb but the scholarship I was on required me to have it). Thailand has good hospitals that can handle just about anything, it's actually a fairly popular destination for medical tourism. But it's possible you might need evacuation of some kind to Bangkok if you get into serious trouble out in the sticks. I'm playing devil's advocate here; in all likelyhood you won't need it, but I don't want to be the rear end in a top hat that gets some goon killed in a Cambodian hospital or whatever. STA Travel sells health insurance designed for travelers, I'm sure there are plenty of other companies too.
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Apr 20, 2010 00:03
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Haggins posted:As for health do I really need to worry about covering evacuations to the US? While I'm in SEA I won't have a home or health insurance in the US. IMO if you don't have health insurance back in the US getting an evac flight would be the opposite of what you'd want. If you get seriously ill in SE Asia you pretty much want to get to Bangkok ASAP, where healthcare is fairly cheap and probably a bit better than what you'd get back home (though if you ask US doctors what they think they say they're much better -- big surprise there, a doctor with an ego). Earlier in the thread it was recommended that you not go with a US based provider for your travel insurance as they like to gently caress people over, but honestly I think that's probably true of every insurance company and I have no direct experience with having to pay for emergency medical care anyway so my opinion is pretty much worth dogshit on that point. I was always very impressed with the healthcare in Thailand. You won't find nicer, more attentive hospital staff anywhere in the world and the doctors know their jobs as well as most doctors in the US seem to. raton fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Apr 20, 2010 |
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Apr 20, 2010 00:26
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Cheesemaster200 posted:I think we need a Visa FAQ in the OP... Nobody reads the OP anyway! :P But yeah, I'll write something, unless someone else wants to? Is there a decent dim sum restaurant in Bangkok that's not too expensive? I've been to two so far and they both served what was obviously deep frozen crap they bought in a supermarket. Terrible! Ringo R fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Apr 20, 2010 |
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Apr 20, 2010 04:01
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Ringo R posted:Nobody reads the OP anyway! :P But yeah, I'll write something, unless Sheep-Goatse wants to? I used to go to a good one in an alley off of Silom at the end of Silom (it's a left turn while you're walking toward the river) that's almost by the river and the alley had no sign and the sign on the Chinese place was in Chinese hope that helps... Good noodles and typical cold Chinese appetizer things too. I am totally unqualified to write about the current visa situation as things have changed a fair bit since I lived in Thailand 
raton fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Apr 20, 2010 |
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Apr 20, 2010 04:08
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Ringo R posted:Is there a decent dim sum restaurant in Bangkok that's not too expensive? I've been to two so far and they both served what was obviously deep frozen crap they bought in a supermarket. Terrible! Chinatown? I usually just got street food when I was passing through, but I'm sure there's at least one real dim sum place there.
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Apr 20, 2010 04:25
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Is an iPad worth bringing to Thailand to sell?
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Apr 20, 2010 14:45
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This isn't specific to SE Asia but I figure this is the best place to ask. I'm going to be going to several countries that require tourist visas and am trying to sort out how to get them all. I'm leaving in mid-June but won't be entering the first place where I can't get a visa on arrival in October (India). I also have to renew my passport since there aren't enough blank pages left to cover my trip. So that means I'll have about a month to work with for sending it to embassies etc. before I leave. What's the best way to go about this? If I don't have time, can I apply in person at that country's embassy in a non-US country? Like I'm going to be in Madrid in June, could I take care of everything in person there? I think I need to get pre-approved visas for India, Vietnam, China, Brazil and maybe a few more in S America. Any tips? Also, are those visa companies that charge fees to take care of everything a good deal? Thanks! edit: Forgot to mention, I'm American.
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Apr 20, 2010 20:34
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Hope you guys don't mind me spamming my Red shirt pics here. I think some of you old Bangkok vets who are now overseas might want to see it. Welcome to Bangkok!  Relax at Lumpini park!  
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Apr 20, 2010 21:15
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@Laopooh, AFAIK you can get extra pages added into your current passport in much less than a month. @Ringo R, they are dug in pretty tight. This is not going to end well. 
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Apr 20, 2010 23:13
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Dr Tran posted:Is an iPad worth bringing to Thailand to sell? No. Unless you're importing porn into Saudi Arabia or something else that's illegal none of these schemes are worth the effort any more.
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Apr 21, 2010 00:37
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Ringo R posted:
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Apr 21, 2010 03:52
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I am planning to go to Thailand around the end of this month. Do you local guys foresee any problems in Pattaya or Patong with current events? I was thinking of doing about a week in Pattaya, catching a ride back to BKK, then flying to Phuket/Patong for a few days. Also, what is a good hotel in Patong for around $40-100? I stayed at the Aloha in Phuket last month for about $40/night, which I liked, but I ended up spending more time in Patong so figured it would be better to just stay there instead of wasting time/money going between the two so much. Dr. Video Games 0126 fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Apr 21, 2010 |
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Apr 21, 2010 08:37
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Malaysia should get more love in this thread! Its slightly more expensive than Thailand, but not by much. It doesn't seem to have the same backpacker culture that the rest of SEA has, but there are still some. If you don't drink, Malaysia is great. If you do, stick to the cheap liquor when on the peninsula. On the islands beer is more affordable because its duty free, elsewhere its pricey. So far I have been to.. Langkawi - Touristy island, kind of boring but still nice. Complete opposite of the party islands in Thailand if thats not your thing. The cable car there is awesome. Good roads for motorcycling. Apparently there are beaches that are really nice in the remote parts of the island. Cameron Highlands - Amazing weather and scenery. Delicious Indian food and great hiking. The tourist attractions are actually worth a drat (rose museum, tea plantation, etc.) Kuala Lumpur - Big city, nice place. You should be able to entertain yourself for 3-4 days. The Islamic arts museum and the planetarium are nice. I would recommend staying the Birds Nest guesthouse. Its cheap and you can cook your own food. Temen Negara - If hiking in the jungles is your thing, this is a wet dream. It has the best jungle I have seen in SEA Tioman Islands - I know some will disagree, but its the purtyiest island I have seen in SEA. There is a bit of trash lying around (ok quite a bit), but if you hike to the remote beaches it's much cleaner. ABC beach is cheap and easy. Make sure to hike to Monkey Bay if you go, which is about 1-2 hours away (a good hike). Malacca - Good food, nice town. I wasn't too crazy about the place, felt really touristy. I have also stopped over in a dozen other towns for a night which have all been cheap and accommodating. If you are looking for cheap places, the Chinese parts of towns have had reliably cheap hotels. If you are backpacking through SEA, I'd say Malaysia is a good place to end the trip out. As others have mentioned, the language is easy to pick up, but everyone speaks English. I also haven't noticed any double pricing or scams other than seeing some resorts charge high rates. ziebarf fucked around with this message at 10:29 on Apr 21, 2010 |
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Apr 21, 2010 09:38
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You'll be fine, I wouldn't worry. I suppose there's the potential that Suvarnabhumi could end up being seized or something, but I kinda doubt it. This stuff is going on in some other areas of the country, but I don't think there's much going on in Pattaya or Phuket.
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Apr 21, 2010 10:11
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ziebarf posted:Malaysia should get more love in this thread! Malaysia is really cool. I've only been to KL and Sarawak/Sabah over on Borneo (which are almost like another country) but I'd definitely recommend it to anyone.
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Apr 21, 2010 11:07
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Yeah, Malaysia rocks. I spent six weeks on Penang as a high school kid, and I've been back to Malaysia (but strangely never Penang) a few times since. I've got friends there, it's cheap to get to and cheap to travel around, and the people and food and scenery are great.
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Apr 21, 2010 12:14
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I've only been to KL, but definitely agree! Great food, awesome shopping, modern amenities, not much to not like.
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Apr 21, 2010 22:04
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Since I'll be going alone, I want to make sure I run into as many other solo travelers as possible to find kindred spirits to do things with. Apparently Thailand doesn't really have hostels so what are their equivalents? Guesthouses? Are there specific types of guesthouses that are more conducive to being able to interact with other travelers in certain cities?
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Apr 21, 2010 23:16
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I hope to go to Malaysia during my trip too. It's starting to seem like a year in SEA may just not be enough time. Depending on ticket prices, I may just start my trip in Singapore rather than BKK. I'll just let fate decide and go with what ever is cheaper. How bad is Singapore on the wallet? I heard they have the best food in the world, but I can't imagine wanting to stay more than a few days I checked into getting insurance today and it looks like my renters insurance (with a replacement value rider for my camera gear) will cover me world wide against anything getting lost/stolen/broken. As for health it seems like these travel insurance places only have a single package available that covers the usuals. I'm estimating it'll be around $500-$600 for the year.
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Apr 21, 2010 23:35
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Lumpini park is at Silom, right? I'm trying to picture exactly where that is without resorting to google maps - am I close or being retarded?
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Apr 21, 2010 23:48
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Damnit, lost my reply.kru posted:Lumpini park is at Silom, right? I'm trying to picture exactly where that is without resorting to google maps - am I close or being retarded? Basically between the MRT (subway) and BTS (skytrain) not far from Siam Square, in the other direction from National Stadium BTS. Closer to the MRT. Lumphini district is where a lot of the embassies and nice hotels are. Haggins posted:I hope to go to Malaysia during my trip too. It's starting to seem like a year in SEA may just not be enough time. Depending on ticket prices, I may just start my trip in Singapore rather than BKK. I'll just let fate decide and go with what ever is cheaper. It's not that bad. There are some hostels like you find in developed countries, so if you're okay with a dorm you won't break the bank. I stayed at Bugis Backpackers years ago on the recommendation of some Japanese people I met in Indonesia and it was nice; a Thai friend of mine stayed there a few months ago and says it's still held up. You can get a great meal of street food for a couple of bucks, although certainly more expensive fare can be found in the shopping malls, etc (as in Bangkok, KL, and the other big cities elsewhere in the region). Probably the best place in the region to buy photo stuff, but buying in the US is still likely better. You'd be hard pressed to spend over a week there unless you really like the place, to me it feels like a hotter, cleaner version of Japan with more English and a lot of the quirky fun bits stripped away. The zoo is a definite must see though. If you're flying to somewhere in Malaysia next with Air Asia it's worth checking the fares from Johor Baru across the bridge, when I was there it saved me like $150 on my flight to Borneo because Changi taxes add a fair bit to those cheap tickets. Broohaha posted:Since I'll be going alone, I want to make sure I run into as many other solo travelers as possible to find kindred spirits to do things with. Apparently Thailand doesn't really have hostels so what are their equivalents? Guesthouses? Are there specific types of guesthouses that are more conducive to being able to interact with other travelers in certain cities? Ones that have a decent common area, not just a desk to check in. Books, seating, a pool table, or a TV (if that's you're thing). Some do, some don't. Restaurants, buses, and the tourist attractions themselves are other places to meet people. I found that a semi-campy t-shirt from your hometown makes a good icebreaker.
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Apr 22, 2010 00:40
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I just wanted to chime and say that my first real trip overseas was to Thailand and Cambodia; I had an absolute blast and if you're even thinking about going sometime do it. I did a package tour through Intrepid for about five days to get myself situated and did my own thing for a couple of weeks afterward. The tour helped, and I met some good people, but it was by no means necessary; I was on my own in Cambodia and had no major problems. Since then I've been back to Vietnam for another three weeks, traveling up and down the country and absolutely can't wait to go back someday.
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Apr 22, 2010 04:31
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Laopooh posted:If I don't have time, can I apply in person at that country's embassy in a non-US country? Yes, almost always. Russia in a notable exception. Maybe there's others but I'm not aware of any in SE Asia. Now, I have a day in Singapore on the 28th between my flight landing at 3 am and my sleeper train leaving at 10 pm. What should I do? For no money?
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Apr 22, 2010 15:29
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A couple of grenades hit Silom about an hour ago. People started to run and I thought I could get away on the Skytrain. However, they stopped running as one grenade hit the roof. (upper right) Edit: Three dead, RIP 
Ringo R fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Apr 23, 2010 |
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Apr 22, 2010 16:09
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Haggins posted:How bad is Singapore on the wallet? I heard they have the best food in the world, but I can't imagine wanting to stay more than a few days Not that bad on the wallet, no worse than any western country - except when it comes to alcohol, where the prices are actually more than in western countries thanks to their ridiculous alcohol taxes. Whether you'd want to stay there more than a few days or not depends on what you're into - I find the shopping, dining (highly recommend Iggy's) and nightlife in Singapore to be world class, and the general city atmosphere eg. around Orchard Road is fantastic (coming from a guy who lives and works in Sydney). Ringo R posted:A couple of grenades hit Silom about an hour ago. People started to run and I thought I could get away on the Skytrain. However, they stopped running as one grenade hit the roof. 3 dead
brendanwor fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Apr 23, 2010 |
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Apr 22, 2010 22:18
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But Bangkok is quite exciting these days.
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brendanwor posted:3 dead Now we need a :thailand: emoticon with the Thai flag and Phumiphon crying. Come on Thailand, I expected better out of ya.
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Apr 22, 2010 22:27
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