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Green Crayons posted:Uh, what are you doing? Stop this. SUCKING DICK IS ILLEGAL IN TEXAS. YOU COULD GET HIM ARRESTED JUST BY POSTING THAT! CmdrSmirnoff posted:After days of writing and rewriting and ultimately aborting a dozen [articling] cover letters for government ministries and firms that don't really do what I'm truly after, I'm thinking of only applying to the handful of places that really fit me. How terrible a plan is this ~*~in this economy~*~ ? Should I just submit some incredibly basic letter that doesn't really mention why I'm applying to the Ministry of Transportation (for example) or how I'm qualified? Am I just wasting both mine and the hiring committee's time? I think there are two approaches to this. Either an e-mail/cover letter that says "I am writing to apply for [___] job. I am currently a 3L at [____]. Thank you for your consideration, please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions. Thank you, CmdrSmirnoff, ESQUIRE" HooKars posted:Sooooo... what are you doing Friday night? I would pay one million dollars to see a video of this date (preferably with pop up video type bubbles commenting). It would be like the best episode of every dating show ever. I'm sorry to hear about the boy. He was a jerk anyway. Ainsley McTree posted:I applied for several call center jobs, hovering around the $12/hr mark. unshockingly i have not heard back 
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Jun 30, 2010 14:33
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HooKars posted:I'm convinced that God just sits up there and laughs at me. Aww, that sucks. If it's any consolation, he really did come off as a jerk through your posts?
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Jun 30, 2010 15:03
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HooKars posted:I'm convinced that God just sits up there and laughs at me. Aw, sorry to hear about the breakup. Timing really does suck sometimes.
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Jun 30, 2010 15:14
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Today is my last day at my law firm. I'm going to take this opportunity to talk about who should not go to law school. Normally, I don't buy into the "get into this level school or don't go" mentality. I figure if someone really truly wants to be a lawyer, it's not my business to convince them not to go. However, what I am going to say is don't go to law school if you don't want to be a lawyer in a law firm. I never ever wanted to be a lawyer. I don't have the qualities necessary to enjoy being a lawyer or be good at it. I was just bored a couple years after college and thought constitutional law classes sounded more interesting than economics classes (I was deciding between law and MBA). If you had asked me what I wanted to do when I was starting law school, I would have told you I wanted to do research. I have no idea now what I thought that meant. But you know, you can do anything with a law degree, right? I was lucky to clerk for the first three years after graduating. I loved that. But that's not a permanent job so eventually I had to move on. I've spent the last five years in firms hating most of it, and I've been lucky to be in places where I can count on one had the times I've worked weekends or stayed later than about 6pm. I've even worked with people I like. But I'm just not an aggressive person by nature, and don't really think quickly enough to be good in court or in negotiations. The thought of spending the next 30 years practicing law makes me sick to my stomach, and there's not much else out there that I'd be qualified to do, as we all know by now. I'm lucky that I've found something to do that pays well, uses my law degree, and that I love doing. So law school ended up being worth it for me. And certainly, there are people out there (and in this thread) that have found good government or other non law-firm jobs and have never had to work in a firm. But these are not the norm and you can't plan on that. So for anyone considering law school, be very aware of what you're getting into and carefully consider whether you should go if you already know you don't want to be a lawyer. I nearly wasted 3 years and $90K to do something I hate doing. tl;dr: don't go to law school unless you want to be a laywer and work in a law firm.
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Jun 30, 2010 15:35
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Adar posted:Aww, that sucks. If it's any consolation, he really did come off as a jerk through your posts? Aw, that's terrible, he's a seriously nice, good guy who supported my unemployed, depressed and mopey rear end for over a year - not a jerk at all, just not into law or being a lawyer. I hope the interview goes well, even though my thoughts about me and the law pretty much mirror Quepasa's.
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Jun 30, 2010 15:49
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quepasa18 posted:I'm lucky that I've found something to do that pays well, uses my law degree, and that I love doing. So law school ended up being worth it for me. And certainly, there are people out there (and in this thread) that have found good government or other non law-firm jobs and have never had to work in a firm. But these are not the norm and you can't plan on that. So for anyone considering law school, be very aware of what you're getting into and carefully consider whether you should go if you already know you don't want to be a lawyer. I nearly wasted 3 years and $90K to do something I hate doing. What other job did you find?
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Jun 30, 2010 16:13
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CaptainScraps posted:What other job did you find? I teach paralegal classes at the local community college. I've been doing it part-time for the last couple of years and now will be teaching full-time.
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Jun 30, 2010 16:18
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quepasa18 posted:
I went the law school for pretty much the same reason. I was interested in civil rights, not so much being a lawyer, and I wanted to make some money. I think most people going to law school just don't know what they want to do and they like law school because they can delay life in the real world another three years and live on borrowed money. Really, what is a psych/soc/art/history major going to do with their degree? It has got to be more school, it just depends on which one. Law school is a good choice for these people. They just need to control costs. A lawyer with 100K debt is better off than a BA/BS Psych major with 30K debt. Yeah, the market sucks right now but it will get better and most people start off with a lovely job in the beginning no matter what degree type. I went to a T4 super toilet and I'm doing pretty well. In fact, I'm having my best year ever in this horrible economy. Every once in a while I check out my old classmates and while some are doing poorly, most are doing alright. Some failed the bar, some went back to their pre law school jobs but most are working in law firms. Some even made it to big law.
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Jun 30, 2010 16:24
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quepasa18, what kind of job did you get again?HooKars posted:I'm convinced that God just sits up there and laughs at me. Sorry to hear that. What kind of position is it? Litigation?
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Jun 30, 2010 17:46
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HooKars posted:Last week I broke up with my boyfriend and moved back home this past Saturday. All that studying for the MO Bar... 
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Jun 30, 2010 18:19
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poofactory posted:I went the law school for pretty much the same reason. I was interested in civil rights, not so much being a lawyer, and I wanted to make some money. You have a point, but I think it's essential that people in this boat realize that they really need to do well in law school and can't just throw money at just any law school and expect it all to work out. While getting into law school is something relatively disconnected with what you did before, what you did with yourself before law school is fairly influential on a job after graduation. If you're just some twerp with another liberal arts degree, having a JD without good grades and without getting yourself into a firm is pretty much like giving yourself another less useful B.A. You're not giving yourself options. Instead, you're just going further on a track that is not suitable for you. Plus, if you got yourself a soft liberal arts degree, your value system is probably such that you don't want to give the kind of sacrifices demanded by the firm law lifestyle. I know people come out with various example of how some dude working in-house only works form 9-5 and has 4 weeks of vacation or whatever, but 99% of attorney positions are highly demanding in terms of time and effort. You just cannot get around that. The economics of the law sector, which will not change, demand that. Like quepasa18 and other posters here have said, if you're not up for slogging it out at a firm, a public defender's office, or a prosecutor's office, you should not go to law school unless it's a concretely good way of getting back into an industry with which you already have connections.
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Jun 30, 2010 18:40
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TyChan posted:if you're not up for slogging it out at ... a prosecutor's office 
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Jun 30, 2010 18:51
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Lykourgos posted:By "slogging," I meant working really hard and going through lots of material. Is this somehow off? My friends at prosecutorial offices on the state and federal levels put Cravath-level hours into their jobs.
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Jun 30, 2010 18:56
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TyChan posted:By "slogging," I meant working really hard. Is this somehow off? My friends at prosecutorial offices on the state and federal levels put Cravath-level hours into their jobs. you have got to be kidding; if they're putting that many hours in then they work at an office entirely different from the ones round here, or they are really dedicated and are working on their own accordThe work is really fulfilling, though, so it's not a slog in the private firm sense where your mind is a slave whose time is purchased by a customer who is actually inferior to you in most intellectual respects EDIT: trial courts can get busy but I mean, it's not like the judge is there that early/late, although preparation and all could be taxing. I've seen people wait until their brief is almost due, and they've had extensions, so they need to knuckle down and write/research a lot before the deadline, but no, I have never seen anything that makes me think private firm also some positions like felony review can have crazy hours, but then you get time off to sleep Lykourgos fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Jun 30, 2010 |
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Jun 30, 2010 18:59
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Lykourgos posted:
quote:EDIT: trial courts can get busy but I mean, it's not like the judge is there that early/late, although preparation and all could be taxing. I've seen people wait until their brief is almost due, and they've had extensions, so they need to knuckle down and write/research a lot before the deadline, but no, I have never seen anything that makes me think private firm Where are you based at? I'm getting my impression from Commonwealth Attorneys in Virginia and attorneys at DOJ offices from all over the US. Especially on the state level, manpower cutbacks have apparently been making everyone's life miserable. It involves a lot of pavement pounding to track down and secure witnesses, a lot of court time for hearings and other proceedings, and, depending on what kind of crimes you're working on, a lot of sifting through evidence. Plus, there can be a lot of motion practice over jury instructions and evidence issues. Federal guys don't have insane caseloads, but my friends on the state level are dealing with ~80+ cases at any given time (or at least say they are). They stay af the office later than my M&A friends, that's for sure. Then again, their weekends aren't quite as hostage, but I think it balances out. I don't know. Maybe I just know really dedicated people? Either that or you think that private firms are more hellish than they are in reality.
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Jun 30, 2010 19:09
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TyChan posted:Where are you based at? I'm getting my impression from Commonwealth Attorneys in Virginia and attorneys at DOJ offices from all over the US. Especially on the state level, manpower cutbacks have apparently been making everyone's life miserable. It involves a lot of pavement pounding to track down and secure witnesses, a lot of court time for hearings and other proceedings, and, depending on what kind of crimes you're working on, a lot of sifting through evidence. Plus, there can be a lot of motion practice over jury instructions and evidence issues. IL; worked here every summer and a semester, currently sitting at home studying for the bar before I return. Largest courthouse/jail and 2nd largest office, there's like five hundred prosecutors not to mention the ASAs in civil depts (1000 total) and the AG's office across the street. It's not that people are lazy here, but I've never seen anything like private firm hours. And by that, I assume private firm means 12+ hour days. I've seen it done in small bursts for specific, rare reasons, and I hear that felony review involves working at all hours of the night, but absolutely have not seen anything even remotely like that in general
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Jun 30, 2010 19:14
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Lykourgos posted:IL; worked here every summer and a semester, currently sitting at home studying for the bar before I return. Largest courthouse/jail and 2nd largest office, there's like five hundred prosecutors not to mention the ASAs in civil depts (1000 total) and the AG's office across the street. Federal people are in a bit of a different boat.
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Jun 30, 2010 19:22
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Lykourgos posted:It's not that people are lazy here, but I've never seen anything like private firm hours. And by that, I assume private firm means 12+ hour days. I've seen it done in small bursts for specific, rare reasons, and I hear that felony review involves working at all hours of the night, but absolutely have not seen anything even remotely like that in general Manhattan D.A. expects a minimum of 60 hours per week, so five 12-hour days if you want weekends off. That's before the arraignment duty you get as a new lawyer (another 8+ hours), some of which is the 5 PM - 1 AM shift.
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Jun 30, 2010 20:11
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Draile posted:Manhattan D.A. expects a minimum of 60 hours per week, so five 12-hour days if you want weekends off. That's before the arraignment duty you get as a new lawyer (another 8+ hours), some of which is the 5 PM - 1 AM shift. Note to Self: Avoid New York.
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Jun 30, 2010 21:00
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Daico posted:Note to Self: Avoid New York. Generally good advice. Also, wait until you see the pay they're offering you for the privilege...
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Jun 30, 2010 21:30
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gvibes posted:Yeah, I'm in Illinois as well, and I share your impression. They seem to bitch a ton about their workload, but yet still are home at six every day. So are you in the office? whereabouts? home by six o'clock sounds like a near universal reality, albeit on the long-hours end. Trial courts can be tougher in terms of hours than offices like appeals, and commute to municipal courts/26th can be a pain, so mileage will vary over the course of your career. 9 to 5 is the general ideal in appeals, but I won't pretend its an expectation/requirement; it has always seemed like case output is far more important, and the bar is not too high. Draile posted:Manhattan D.A. expects a minimum of 60 hours per week, so five 12-hour days if you want weekends off. That's before the arraignment duty you get as a new lawyer (another 8+ hours), some of which is the 5 PM - 1 AM shift. pfffffffffffffff 
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Jun 30, 2010 22:13
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If it was good enough for Jack McCoy...
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Jun 30, 2010 22:16
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I'm still trying to convince my boss that applying Bilski invalidates all software patents, but he's not biting yet.
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Jun 30, 2010 22:18
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TyChan posted:By "slogging," I meant working really hard and going through lots of material. Is this somehow off? My friends at prosecutorial offices on the state and federal levels put Cravath-level hours into their jobs. I have friends at Cravath... I find it hard to believe that it's really on that level. I'd last 2 weeks at Cravath before I moved on.
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Jun 30, 2010 22:19
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Dallan Invictus posted:I graduated today and am legitimately worried this will be the highest point of my life. Guess who lucked out.  Short-term gig (3-5 months), so I guess I'll keep trying to find a way to article next year either with DOJ or some IP/techlaw firm in Ottawa/Vancouver/Toronto, or get some other permanent position. But it's a foot in the government door, it uses my law degree despite not being counsel-track, and it sure as gently caress beats unemployment. I start Monday. Now, to keep my bills at bay for three more weeks... Dallan Invictus fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Jun 30, 2010 |
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Jun 30, 2010 22:25
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poofactory posted:Really, what is a psych/soc/art/history major going to do with their degree? It has got to be more school, it just depends on which one. that's bullshit, the vast majority of "requires a degree" jobs don't need a specific major and don't need a postgraduate degree. not that things are great for those people in this economy, but as everyone in this thread should realise that's true of most postgraduate degree holders too
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Jun 30, 2010 22:29
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commish posted:I have friends at Cravath... I find it hard to believe that it's really on that level. I'd last 2 weeks at Cravath before I moved on. Maybe that was a bit hyperbolic, but the hours can definitely be up there as you saw from the Manhattan D.A.'s schedule.
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Jun 30, 2010 22:30
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TyChan posted:Maybe that was a bit hyperbolic, but the hours can definitely be up there as you saw from the Manhattan D.A.'s schedule. Yeah, I understand. One of my best friends at Cravath - I haven't seen her in 8 months, mind you - billed (BILLED) over 120 hours a week for the first 3 months she started at the firm. Now her hours are "much" better - usually around 80 to 90 hours a week billed. It's insane. I don't know what she did to get so much work (though I suspect she brought it on herself partly), but they are crushing her soul. I have friends at other firms who had it pretty bad as well and already quit after a few months. Makes me love my own firm all the more. It's hard for me to have sympathy for people who work these crazy hours as a lawyer. I'm not sure what they expected, working for major NYC firms.
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Jun 30, 2010 22:39
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commish posted:but they are crushing her soul. I believe it's called "paying off student loans".
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Jun 30, 2010 22:42
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commish posted:Yeah, I understand. One of my best friends at Cravath - I haven't seen her in 8 months, mind you - billed (BILLED) over 120 hours a week for the first 3 months she started at the firm. Now her hours are "much" better - usually around 80 to 90 hours a week billed. It's insane. I don't know what she did to get so much work (though I suspect she brought it on herself partly), but they are crushing her soul. I think some of those insane hours involve the billable "waiting around" time that comes with legal work, like camping out at the printers with the bankers or waiting for 2+ hours before your annoying opposing counsel actually arrives for a court-scheduled conference.
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Jun 30, 2010 22:44
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Roger_Mudd posted:I believe it's called "paying off student loans". yeh, that's what he wrote, they're crushing her soul. also  at nyc hours, another reason why chicago is the more honourable city, caring for its learned class of noble lawyer retainers
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Jun 30, 2010 22:46
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Blah is a full-service law firm seeking a legal intern to work 20-25 hours per week starting this summer and possibly extending into the school year. Blah is seeking help with litigation discovery on a project basis. The duties will include, but are not limited to, document management, keeping client calendars, filing pleadings, contacting courts to schedule hearings, etc. Qualified applicants must be proactive and dependable. Moreover, the successful candidate must be industrious and detail-oriented. The selected candidate must also take responsibility for new projects. Mastery of the discovery process is preferred but not required. The hourly rate is $10. Interested candidates should submit a resume and letter of intent as soon as possible to: The need is immediate. Yep, minimum wage is 7.25 an hour.
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Jun 30, 2010 22:52
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TyChan posted:I think some of those insane hours involve the billable "waiting around" time that comes with legal work, like camping out at the printers with the bankers or waiting for 2+ hours before your annoying opposing counsel actually arrives for a court-scheduled conference. I am sad that going to the printer is a thing of the past.  It was like Disneyland only with booze and drafting disclosure.
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Jun 30, 2010 23:12
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commish posted:Yeah, I understand. One of my best friends at Cravath - I haven't seen her in 8 months, mind you - billed (BILLED) over 120 hours a week for the first 3 months she started at the firm. I have a friend at Cravath in Corporate who pretty much does nothing all day but "professional reading." He's leaving for a clerkship soon so nobody will give him anything now but it's been like that pretty much since he started. It depends on a lot of different factors - not just on the firm but the practice group, how much you procrastinate, etc. I know a ton of people who seem to gently caress around all day chatting and don't even start their work til late afternoon but "work so hard."
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Jun 30, 2010 23:13
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HooKars posted:I know a ton of people who seem to gently caress around all day chatting and don't even start their work til late afternoon but "work so hard." depends on the nature of the work, really; some things tire you out more than others. I know one extremely taxing task that many lawyers face is "finding the end of the internet"
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Jun 30, 2010 23:18
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gvibes posted:Yeah, I'm in Illinois as well, and I share your impression. They seem to bitch a ton about their workload, but yet still are home at six every day. I'm not a lawyer, but I do work for the federal government. This is extremely true. We even get off every other Friday (we make up the difference in hours by working "long" 9 hour days Monday - Thursday). It's ridiculous that people don't realize how easy the schedule is... a lot of these people tend to be older "lifers" though. Sometimes I hear them say they're gonna quit, and it occurs to me that they don't have the slightest clue how bad the job market is out there. They've been in the government bubble too long. AndrewP fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Jun 30, 2010 |
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Jun 30, 2010 23:19
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Roger_Mudd posted:
They're still going to get a shitload of applicants.
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Jun 30, 2010 23:22
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HooKars posted:I have a friend at Cravath in Corporate who pretty much does nothing all day but "professional reading." He's leaving for a clerkship soon so nobody will give him anything now but it's been like that pretty much since he started. It depends on a lot of different factors - not just on the firm but the practice group, how much you procrastinate, etc. Yes! It depends on so many factors. One of my friends at my firm billed about NINE hours for all of June, yet I'm working on 4 different deals at the same time. Can be pretty random, but I like to tell myself that it's because I'm good. Yeah, that's it :\
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Jun 30, 2010 23:27
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commish posted:Yes! It depends on so many factors. One of my friends at my firm billed about NINE hours for all of June, yet I'm working on 4 different deals at the same time. Can be pretty random, but I like to tell myself that it's because I'm good. Yeah, that's it :\ remember this post when you look out your corner-office window and see your mate pan handling outside
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Jun 30, 2010 23:29
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maskenfreiheit fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Sep 29, 2010 |
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Jun 30, 2010 23:36
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