|
Golden Bee posted:I have a question. How many different types of heels are there? There's complaints that all WWE heels are the same, but there has to be a lot of different ones. There have been plenty historically the problem is really right now there is a lot of cowardly in their heels. I know I know WWE is for kids I'm a durk for wanting anything else but I would still prefer some more variety.
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 00:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 07:52 |
|
|
Gonzo McFee posted:Not to do with matches but rather HHH's opinion of you in creative meetings. He's famously been reported on saying that RVD couldn't connect with the fans and that Kurt Angle wasn't big enough to be a main eventer. Yes and neither of those two jabronies went anywhere They were going to make Kurt Angle champion on his first day, but because Triple H cursed him, they waited until almost the end of his first year! 99% of Triple H hate is overblown nonsense based on nothing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 00:34
|
|
|
OneThousandMonkeys posted:Yes and neither of those two jabronies went anywhere to be fair though angle's first reign was pretty lovely and they never really let him main event on his own. he won it in a stupid finish, had a non match with the undertaker on survivor series in the midcard, was an afterthought in that 6 way hell in a cell match, had a dumb match at the royal rumble with another nonfinish, and lost the belt to the rock on his first true main event ppv and was stricken back to the midcard until his performance at KOTR.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 00:59
|
|
|
Lone Rogue posted:Nobody asked this question, and I didn't want to derail the WWE Discussion and put it there, but I just found out that one of Shane Carwin's trainers are Ron "H2O" Waterman, a former wrestler who was also a terrible Scott Steiner ripoff and a member of the first TNA PPV in the Gauntlet for the Gold. H2O might just be the worst nickname basically ever.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 01:09
|
|
|
Golden Bee posted:I have a question. How many different types of heels are there? There's complaints that all WWE heels are the same, but there has to be a lot of different ones. This is a tough question because you have to make a distinction between what a heel's gimmick is, and what type of heel he is. If you don't make the distinction then there are a million different heels--you have the trash man heel, the IRS agent heel, the undead heel, the racecar driver heel, the dentist heel...... But when you look at what makes a heel a heel, then there's only a few types. Traditionally you have the monster heel, usually backed by a manager, brought in to feud with the top face, whether it's Bruno Sammartino, Hulk Hogan, or whomever. Other than that, you really have 2 kinds left. There's the cowardly heel, of which the great majority of heels fall under. They cheat, beg off, and are altogether shown to be not as good as the valiant face they're facing. Look at nearly any heel modern day or in the past who wasn't booked as a monster--Randy Orton as a heel (remember the I quit match with Cena--he may seem like a badass, but he cowers when push comes to shove), Edge, Punk, Ric Flair, the Midnight Express; the list goes on-and-on. And then there's the badass and/or cool heel. These heels are much rarer than the cowardly heel, and often wind up becoming babyfaces. They aren't heels merely by virtue of their actions, but for whatever reason, whether they berate the audience or attacks faces, they are booed. But they aren't shown to be inferior to the faces. Think nWo here, although they were kind of in-between cool heel and coward heel. And this is an overly-technical analysis on something hard to explain, and is certainly non-inclusive. For the most part though, I don't think you'll see any other types of heel than these three.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 01:36
|
|
|
I think the problem is that the cowardly heel has the longest lifespan. With the cool heel, they end up becoming a face, because they're too cool to boo, and they tend to make the faces look like dorks, and who wants to cheer for the dork? The monster heel loses a ton of momentum as soon as they lose and are shown to be vulnerable. Also the creation of a monster heel requires them to be fed established faces. This worked well in the territory days, when a monster could come in, go on a hot streak, lose to the champ and never be seen again, but it's harder now. Plus, if the monster heel is too invulnerable, he ends up getting cheered too. Probably the most recent example would be Brock Lesnar. The cowardly heel can last a long time, because he doesn't need to be seen as dominant, just threatening enough. He doesn't need to win matches clean to stay over like the monster heel, although he should win them relatively clean - a poke to the eyes, a low blow, pulling the tights, feet on the ropes - these are examples of what I would like to call "heel clean".
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 01:50
|
|
|
Lamuella posted:H2O might just be the worst nickname basically ever. WHATCHU GONNA DO WHEN RON WATERMAN BRINGS A NIAGRA FALLS WATERFALL DOWN ON YOUUUU!?
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 02:05
|
|
|
I think Waterman was in the first UFC game, the Dreamcast one. I also think he tagged with Lesnar in OVW or at some point before Brock made it to the show.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 03:53
|
|
|
Skimming through Have a Nice Day last night, came across Mick Foley hating on Mil Mascaras but not going into detail (only saying that he was sick to his stomach when he saw that he had to face him in WCW). What's the story on this?
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 19:23
|
|
|
To answer the question the #6 contender is Sheamus but the issue went to publication at the end of may. I bought it thinking it would make for a good thread to talk about Apter mags but they aren't the same now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 20:28
|
|
|
CVagts posted:Skimming through Have a Nice Day last night, came across Mick Foley hating on Mil Mascaras but not going into detail (only saying that he was sick to his stomach when he saw that he had to face him in WCW). What's the story on this? He is apparently a bit of a dick. Foley and Jericho have both mentioned that he doesn't really like selling moves or putting people over unless he thinks it is a good idea. Then again, he was a huge star in Mexico in the 70s so he probably felt he was entitled to act that way.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 20:30
|
|
|
MrBling posted:He is apparently a bit of a dick. Foley and Jericho have both mentioned that he doesn't really like selling moves or putting people over unless he thinks it is a good idea. He has always been a dick. Even Destroyer said it was tough to get him to do anything for you. You sometimes had to legit beat selling out of him.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 20:39
|
|
|
MrBling posted:He is apparently a bit of a dick. Foley and Jericho have both mentioned that he doesn't really like selling moves or putting people over unless he thinks it is a good idea. He is the Mexican version of Hulk Hogan. By that I mean the way he acted in wrestling, not how his family is. KungFu Grip fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Jul 4, 2010 |
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 21:35
|
|
|
OneThousandMonkeys posted:Yes and neither of those two jabronies went anywhere They gave him the title because Pat Patterson looked over at Hunter and said "If you two got into a fight, who'd win?" and that pretty much sealed it for Vince. And both of them went on to become World champions in spite of what HHH thought so I wouldn't call them Jabronies, especially Angle. But I think you're missing the point. If there's one thing about RVD that everyone can agree on is that the man has an incredibly strong connection with the crowd. And Kurt Angle is a credible champion no matter what because he's won Olympic loving gold. If Hunter doesn't like you he'll make up whatever bullshit reason he likes and no-one dare disagree lest they be shown the door. Edit: Oh hi sarcasm, I didn't see you there. Gonzo McFee fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Jul 4, 2010 |
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 22:11
|
|
|
Mascaras hates selling, but gets pissed when he doesn't feel his opponent has sold one of his own moves well enough. Not a good way to get popular.Gonzo McFee posted:They gave him the title because Pat Patterson looked over at Hunter and said "If you two got into a fight, who'd win?" and that pretty much sealed it for Vince. I think OTM's point was that your post was just the same old Hunter Hatred you can find anywhere on the 'net, supported by unsourced statements about him holding down wrestlers that seem absurd on their surface because both wrestlers you named became world champions.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 22:35
|
|
|
The sources were Kurt Angle and RVD in various interviews each have done. And there's plenty of sourced reasons to hate Hunter as well as live on screen stuff that we've all seen.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 22:53
|
|
|
I thought the story went that (around the time of Angle's promo about hating Jesus and The Blacks) Angle just kept getting cheered so Triple H said he was a bad heel or some poo poo, I dunno, it's all probably made up anyway, Triple H rules.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 23:16
|
|
|
Made all the more funny by the fact that when HHH feuded with Cena it turned him face too.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 23:49
|
|
|
There are so many stories from the wrestlers themselves about what a gigantic power hungry cocksucker HHH is, in addition to the "dirt sheet" stories plus plain old common sense based on what we see on TV that I'm continually stunned that he's white knighted at all. Well I'm also stunned WWE as a whole is white knighted at all too but yeah e: Oh wait this is everyone vs. OTM so why does anyone even give a poo poo
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 23:53
|
|
|
LividLiquid posted:Made all the more funny by the fact that when HHH feuded with Cena it turned him face too. Triple H turned himself face. He was supposed to be a straight up heel against Cena and what does he do? Crotch chops at him. This prior to the re-formation of D-X. He was mining for face pops to try to make Cena look bad. Not to mention saying right on Raw that Cena wasn't a good wrestler. I like to imagine that Rock was legit pissed off at Triple H during this promo. It just makes it a little more fun. Hunter was so off of his game at this point too (no pun intended). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDa4A7v3-z0
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2010 23:56
|
|
|
Lone Rogue posted:Triple H turned himself face. He does seem to choke on his own bile during the punchline HHH alternates between getting way too much or way too little credit from smarks. Personally I think he's a fairly un-entertaining individual and always has been. Talk Slow And Say The Same Thing. Say The Same Thing Slowly. SLOWLY SAME THING SAY. /HHH Promo.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2010 02:01
|
|
|
Captain Charisma posted:Well I'm also stunned WWE as a whole is white knighted at all too but yeah People give WWE more credit when they do something stupid because they've earned a lot of goodwill. WCW earned enough goodwill to make it through the latter half of '98 with only a handful of good programs and matches. TNA earned enough goodwill in their good year to make it through their first six months with Russo at the helm. WWE has earned every "Well, that wasn't that bad." they get when yes, it really was that bad. It was awful. But they've earned the forgiveness. They've done so much so well that they can coast along with a mediocre show for years so long as three angles a year are hot and fantastically written and the rest look like TNA and very few people call them on it. They earned that. That's where we are now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2010 10:08
|
|
|
Well obviously TNA sucks and WCW sucked so if we don't whiteknight the biggest most successful company in industry history then maybe we're all obsessive fans of something that's really terrible all the time we are Or we could be that guy who has to go on and on about his favorite indy/Japanese fed that no one's ever heard of and explain in excruciating detail how despite its bushleague appearance is not laughably bad unlike other companies honest it's good wrestling
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2010 11:34
|
|
|
Lone Rogue posted:Triple H turned himself face. John Cena had been getting booed for months with no end in sight. There's this thing called a slow face turn. I'm not surprised no one's paying to small details such as what actually happened in order to make up more crap about Triple H. Shawn and Triple H do crotch chops on the same night--Shawn first--and yet Triple H is evil for using the crowd hatred of Cena in order to turn himself face against a guy who could not get cheers if he were wrestling Osama Bin Laden. There are certainly things that didn't go right for that Wrestlemania. It should have been Edge/Cena, for instance, and the whole thing with Cena was a mess in general because they had him just steamroll guys with a lot more credibility than him with unconvincing performances. It was also effectively true that John Cena matches sucked, with rare exception. If they didn't suck he wouldn't be getting booed. Anyway if you don't think the way the Triple H/Cena feud played out for the two characters was completely intentional, you're delusional. quote:In my many years of arguing against pro-WWE bias as a WCW and later a TNA fan, I eventually had to let down my guard and have one inalienable fact beaten into my skull: Raw especially has been almost uniformly terrible for years and years. If someone wanted to get into WWE I would just tell them to watch PPVs and maybe Smackdown, because Raw would probably scare them off with how embarrassingly stupid it is. The other stuff is completely better than anything TNA is doing, though. If I had a choice between TNA and Raw I would watch neither, but really nothing on Raw compares to the stupidity of TNA in the last several years, and the stupidity is only speeding up lately. They are not really comparable in quality. At least Raw succeeds on some level as an advertisement.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2010 11:47
|
|
|
Has anyone seen the new Luchador Wrestling show that MTV2 will be showing in middle of this month? I saw guys like LaParka (The new one I think) on it and they had a (actually rather decent for an MTV2 show) special on today that I caught flipping through the channels introducing the key players and it was pretty informative about the different kinds of Luchadors and how important the masks are to the culture etc. I could be wrong but I think they're actually airing it the same time as Smackdown on friday nights, which might be a bad decision.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2010 16:31
|
|
|
Mr. Carlisle posted:Has anyone seen the new Luchador Wrestling show that MTV2 will be showing in middle of this month? I saw guys like LaParka (The new one I think) on it and they had a (actually rather decent for an MTV2 show) special on today that I caught flipping through the channels introducing the key players and it was pretty informative about the different kinds of Luchadors and how important the masks are to the culture etc. There's a few "names" on there that even I recognise (knowing gently caress all about Lucha). Marco Corleone was Mark Jindrak in WWE. Mascarita Dorada and Oriental have both wrestled in CHIKARA. I just hope they manage to avoid the crappy special effects that WSX used
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2010 16:49
|
|
|
It may be worth a watch during the boring parts of Smackdown if they run head to head. Apparently they've created their own world title belt for it and everything. Seeing MTV2 of all places give a serious go at showing Luchador wrestling in 2010 is odd as hell to me.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2010 17:27
|
|
|
LividLiquid posted:In my many years of arguing against pro-WWE bias as a WCW and later a TNA fan, I eventually had to let down my guard and have one inalienable fact beaten into my skull: I think WWE does get many passes on garbage that would have people crucifying TNA. I also think TNA has been more entertaining the past couple of months.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2010 05:01
|
|
|
savinhill posted:Every wrestling company has a lot of poo poo you need to tolerate in order to enjoy the good parts. I find it funny that the only WWE guy who doesn't get a pass is John Cena. Someone recently complained about Cena looking angry but still trying to pose for the crowd at the end of tonights Raw. As if Stone Cold Steve Austin has never, ever, ever done that ever. Ever. Or gently caress, as if Randy Orton has never done it ever.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2010 05:02
|
|
|
Mr. Carlisle posted:It may be worth a watch during the boring parts of Smackdown if they run head to head. Apparently they've created their own world title belt for it and everything. Seeing MTV2 of all places give a serious go at showing Luchador wrestling in 2010 is odd as hell to me. It isn't a serious go. They're just dropping a couple grand on a show for their B-level network 'cause "why not?" WSX, now that was a serious go.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2010 05:08
|
|
|
Lone Rogue posted:I find it funny that the only WWE guy who doesn't get a pass is John Cena. I really don't understand the popularity of Orton though.It's like WWE wants to make him into a Stone Cold type badass,but with his monotone,robotic speaking and the PG ratings he comes of boring as hell to me.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2010 05:12
|
|
|
Lone Rogue posted:I find it funny that the only WWE guy who doesn't get a pass is John Cena. The biggest problem is that so many adults forget that Cena's character is meant for children, much like Hogan was. He only does a few big flashy moves because that's what kids want.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2010 05:12
|
|
|
WeaselWeaz posted:It isn't a serious go. They're just dropping a couple grand on a show for their B-level network 'cause "why not?" WSX, now that was a serious go. I must have missed WSX - I have no idea what that even stands for and have never heard of it other than a casual mention here.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2010 05:14
|
|
|
A Dapper Man posted:The biggest problem is that so many adults forget that Cena's character is meant for children, much like Hogan was. He only does a few big flashy moves because that's what kids want. I don't know if it is even that anymore. He put one pretty awesome beat down on Darren Young, showed some fantastic intensity and got ripped on for simply posing to the crowd after. Like that is some petty, silly stuff. That just goes to show that people will never be happy with Cena even if he does what they want him to do, with exception to the big one. That being a heel turn, which they would start cheering him immediately for doing, which is completely against the point of a loving heel turn. It's like the guy can't win.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2010 05:14
|
|
|
WeaselWeaz posted:It isn't a serious go. They're just dropping a couple grand on a show for their B-level network 'cause "why not?" WSX, now that was a serious go. It's part of a big push into the American market by AAA.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2010 05:15
|
|
|
Matlock posted:It's part of a big push into the American market by AAA. This company is unrelated to AAA.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2010 05:19
|
|
|
Lone Rogue posted:I don't know if it is even that anymore. Hogan had some larger than life heels to fight which allowed him to put on over the top promos and performances.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2010 05:22
|
|
|
Mr. Carlisle posted:I must have missed WSX - I have no idea what that even stands for and have never heard of it other than a casual mention here. Wrestling Soceity X- It aired for three weeks on MTV and was cancled. Im sure you could find the DVD for the whole show on Amazon. Its pretty good in an over the top action movie kind of way.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2010 05:28
|
|
|
MassRayPer posted:This company is unrelated to AAA. Given that I was told, by AAA reps, that the show was part of an effort by AAA to push Lucha Libre to American audiences...
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2010 05:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 07:52 |
|
|
Matlock posted:Given that I was told, by AAA reps, that the show was part of an effort by AAA to push Lucha Libre to American audiences... Are you sure it was the MTV2 show?
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2010 05:30
|
|