Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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poofactory: May 6, 2003; by T. Finn

TyChan posted:

Please elaborate.

1. go to law school. doesn't matter which school, just keep the debt low
2. get a law license.
3. find an area of law with a high demand
4. learn how to practice
5. start a firm
6. run the business effectively
7. make a bunch of money

It is a simple formula but not many lawyers can make it work successfully. Most don't even try and prefer to work for someone else hoping they'll get some scraps thrown their way.

# ? Jul 14, 2010 22:04

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# ? May 16, 2024 06:07

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

builds character posted:

Technology has also had an impact on the market. Because of advances in technology, firms staff deals more leanly and are able to distribute work among offices more easily. Before you needed six people to go to the printer and physically look at an OM. Now you need one associate who sends a PDF to the printer and reviews it when you get it back.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that before technology simplified things, a law degree was basically an investment which earned you the right to get paid a lot of money to do simple office work anyone could handle?

# ? Jul 14, 2010 22:05

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

builds character posted:

Things are definitely picking up in the legal market. Whether or not that extends to the rest of the economy is a different question entirely.

Job-wise or activity wise?

Activity in New York is picking up and associates are definitely more busy than they used to be, but from what I was getting told, these transactions were happening because if they didn't happen, people were going to be bleeding money and a lot of financial clients couldn't just sit around doing nothing. Financial activity is not picking up enough to increase hiring rates, give laid-off attorneys their jobs back, or otherwise provide jobs to current and aspiring law students the way they were getting handed out during the late 90s or between 2005-2007.

quote:

I think it's uncommon for firms to represent clients in litigation where the firm also represented the firm in the transaction that leads to the litigation.

This actually happens quite a lot from my experience, but I guess I should have been clearer and said that firms usually parlay a role in the transactions into generating litigation business because clients used to ask "hey _____, we have an issue with this transaction gone wrong, do you have anyone who can deal with it?" and then the firm would say, "oh, but of course."

That cycle has been damaged, if not outright broken, in many respects.

poofactory posted:

1. go to law school. doesn't matter which school, just keep the debt low
2. get a law license.
3. find an area of law with a high demand
4. learn how to practice
5. start a firm
6. run the business effectively
7. make a bunch of money

It is a simple formula but not many lawyers can make it work successfully. Most don't even try and prefer to work for someone else hoping they'll get some scraps thrown their way.

From my experience, most people going to law school are going to law school because they don't want to be straight-out entrepreneurs.

Also, "learn how to practice," usually involves working for a firm or otherwise finding a way to parlay your (mostly) useless JD into a opportunity to learn how to be a real lawyer. That requires going back into dealing with the whole job-finding system and economic challenge you're dismissing so casually.

"Learning how to practice" in "areas of law with high demand" really means "become a firm partner in a good practice group and then spin off."

Eric Cantonese fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Jul 14, 2010

# ? Jul 14, 2010 22:07

Ainsley McTree: Feb 19, 2004

poofactory posted:

1. go to law school. doesn't matter which school, just keep the debt low
2. get a law license.
3. find an area of law with a high demand
4. learn how to practice
5. start a firm
6. run the business effectively
7. make a bunch of money

It is a simple formula but not many lawyers can make it work successfully. Most don't even try and prefer to work for someone else hoping they'll get some scraps thrown their way.

I suspect that some of these steps are more complicated to execute than you're making them out to be

# ? Jul 14, 2010 22:07

Defleshed: Nov 18, 2004; F is for... FREEDOM

Ainsley McTree posted:

I suspect that some of these steps are more complicated to execute than you're making them out to be

4, 5, and 6 spring to mind immediately.

# ? Jul 14, 2010 22:13

Adar: Jul 27, 2001

poofactory posted:

4. learn how to practice
5. start a firm

"Hello BIGBANK. I am a newly minted attorney from TTT and I would like to start a solo practice with zero experience. Please lend me lots of money so that I may operate out of an office instead of my house, buy malpractice insurance and pay myself a salary. Also, please ignore any amount of student loans I may already have in the process. TIA"

# ? Jul 14, 2010 22:14

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

Halloween Jack posted:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that before technology simplified things, a law degree was basically an investment which earned you the right to get paid a lot of money to do simple office work anyone could handle?

Well, it's more like the right to handle simple office work dealing with matters that legally required a professional license, while hopefully parlaying that into an opportunity to do more specialized work.

# ? Jul 14, 2010 22:17

builds character: Jan 16, 2008; Keep at it.

Halloween Jack posted:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that before technology simplified things, a law degree was basically an investment which earned you the right to get paid a lot of money to do simple office work anyone could handle?

No. Most people can do the stuff that first years do and paralegals and assistants sometimes do it. Experienced paralegals are frequently far more useful than a junior associate. But (i) at some point (I think second year but it will probably depend on your practice) the work that you're doing requires some thinking and you need to know the law to be able to do that thinking (not that you couldn't learn the law on the job, but see ii) and (ii) this probably counts as practicing law and you have to be a lawyer to practice law.

TyChan posted:

Job-wise or activity wise?

Activity in New York is picking up and associates are definitely more busy than they used to be, but from what I was getting told, these transactions were happening because if they didn't happen, people were going to be bleeding money and a lot of financial clients couldn't just sit around doing nothing. Financial activity is not picking up enough to increase hiring rates, give laid-off attorneys their jobs back, or otherwise provide jobs to current and aspiring law students the way they were getting handed out during the late 90s or between 2005-2007.

This actually happens quite a lot from my experience, but I guess I should have been clearer and said that firms usually parlay a role in the transactions into generating litigation business because clients used to ask "hey _____, we have an issue with this transaction gone wrong, do you have anyone who can deal with it?" and then the firm would say, "oh, but of course."

That cycle has been damaged, if not outright broken, in many respects.

Job-wise for experienced lateral associates and activity wise generally. Sure, it's nowhere near 2006 but it's also a significant step up from where we were a year ago. And yes, it's not creating any new jobs for anyone without a job.

This is not my experience but I'm happy accepting that my experience isn't representative and I'm certainly not a litigator or a partner so I may just not know about it. I have seen a lot of cross-pollination, for lack of a better term, among transactional practice groups.

# ? Jul 14, 2010 22:32

poofactory: May 6, 2003; by T. Finn

You guys can make all the excuses you want about it being too hard and that's probably why you can't do it. But that's what I did and have been doing for 10+ years.

# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:23

Chakron: Mar 11, 2009

poofactory posted:

You guys can make all the excuses you want about it being too hard and that's probably why you can't do it. But that's what I did and have been doing for 10+ years.

I am personally not rubust enough to handle such a difficult endeavor.

# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:26

Ainsley McTree: Feb 19, 2004

poofactory posted:

You guys can make all the excuses you want about it being too hard and that's probably why you can't do it. But that's what I did and have been doing for 10+ years.

What was your background before that?

# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:27

Pie Colony: Dec 8, 2006; I AM SUCH A FUCKUP THAT I CAN'T EVEN POST IN AN E/N THREAD I STARTED

Is the LSAT score curved or absolute? Like, does a 180 mean you are in the the x'th percentile or that you got every question right? And if it's the former, is there a rough estimate as to the number of questions correct each score is? Thanks

# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:28

Mookie: Mar 22, 2005; I have to return some videotapes.

TyChan posted:

Keep in mind that Mookie, as a well-versed big firm guy, might be able to come in and point out why this is all crap, but this is the sense I've been getting from looking at how everything in NYC is going down.

It is a combination of this and the reduction of barriers to information access. There's less work that still requires significant legal guidance/involvement (IPOs etc.) which leads to less work that absolutely requires it (litigation) and so the big firm business model took a serious whack.

Add to that that most lawyers are terrible at running businesses, and you have a recipe for disaster.

builds character posted:

Job-wise for experienced lateral associates and activity wise generally. Sure, it's nowhere near 2006 but it's also a significant step up from where we were a year ago. And yes, it's not creating any new jobs for anyone without a job.

This is very true. There is an uptick in hiring recently. Firms shed too many bodies (or didn't hire enough during the really bad years) and now need to make it up. From what I've seen, the best opportunities are for junior associate laterals (class of 2007-2009) and very experienced lawyers. Most firms have a gigantic glut of attorneys in the 2004-2006 classes, since that was when they would hire anyone with a JD. a lot of people in those years are still in the process of being shaken out.

For what it is worth, four people I work with have found new jobs in the last few months, and I know several more who are in the advanced stages of the interview game. Now is the time for firms to scoop up unhappy talent, while a lot of associates are trying to position themselves to benefit from the uptick in legal work.

# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:30

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

poofactory posted:

You guys can make all the excuses you want about it being too hard and that's probably why you can't do it. But that's what I did and have been doing for 10+ years.

Shockingly, the legal market was different in the 90s.
Much easier to hang out a shingle then.

# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:31

Robawesome: Jul 22, 2005

is it possible to become a lawyer with a criminal record?

# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:41

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Robawesome posted:

is it possible to become a lawyer with a criminal record?

Yes. Though it can be harder to pass character and fitness.
Depends on the crime though. Caught with some pot? No one cares. Embezzled $5.2 million, I recommend a different career path.

# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:45

Robawesome: Jul 22, 2005

nm posted:

Yes. Though it can be harder to pass character and fitness.
Depends on the crime though. Caught with some pot? No one cares. Embezzled $5.2 million, I recommend a different career path.

If you don't mind, can you explain to me what character and fitness are? I'm guessing character is a thorough and personal background check and fitness is, uh, a physical?

# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:46

Stunt Rock: Jul 28, 2002; DEATH WISH AT 120 DECIBELS

Robawesome posted:

is it possible to become a lawyer with a criminal record?

Did you rob someone awesome?

# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:49

Robawesome: Jul 22, 2005

Stunt Rock posted:

Did you rob someone awesome?

haha, no, but after some mild paranoia from my question in the legal questions thread i discovered some idiot actually owns https://www.robawesome.com

# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:51

Petey: Nov 26, 2005; For who knows what is good for a person in life, during the few and meaningless days they pass through like a shadow? Who can tell them what will happen under the sun after they are gone?

SWATJester posted:

What makes you think that colleges actually look at applicants holistically?

Depends on the college. Most schools don't - but then again, the vast majority of colleges admit more students than they reject.

The most selective undergraduate schools in the country are heavily holistic, with a few notable exceptions (for example CalTech). Some of those "holistic" practices are still essentially reproductive of hierarchy (see: legacy admissions), but not all schools give such weight to such things, and it's generally balanced out by a litany of other considerations (sensitive to socioeconomic status, a desire for breadth in rural vs urban populations, etc).

Don't get me wrong, colleges still care about numbers. But not in the same way law schools, or med schools, do. MIT, for example, treats the SATs as a model. Overall scores basically mean nothing:

Matt McGann, MIT Admissions posted:

People make a big deal about test scores. No one seems to believe me when I tell them that when I'm reading an application, I just glance at the test scores to get a sense of them before moving on to the more important parts of the application -- that is, who you are. But here's an example. So, I'm reading this application of a student, a pretty strong student, who's definitely overcome some challenges recently. I come to the second to last piece in the folder, which is the guidance counselor letter (the last piece is the interview report). The GC makes a big deal of the student's "scoring the magic 1600 on the SAT." Now, when I started the case, I mentally noted to myself, "Okay, this student has scores that are fine, let's move on," but it didn't really make an impact on me that the student had "the magic 1600." Yes, scoring a 1600 is something that you, your school, your parents, and your guidance counselor can be very proud of. But it's not something I'm going to bust out my highlighter for, circle in big red pen, make it the focus of your case. In fact, I don't think I have ever in my summary of a student used high standardized scores as an argument to admit that student.

Let me tell you one more story that I often relay. I was doing a regional reception in a city a few years back, and afterwards a student -- we'll call her Artemis -- comes up to me and tells me that she has a 760 on the Math SAT. As I was about to tell her that her score was just fine, she keeps talking, to inform me that she was going to take the test again, since "clearly" her score was "too low." I was like, "What?!?!" I "ordered" Artemis to not take the Math SAT again, and instead to have a picnic on that Saturday. Because to us, a 760 math is the same as any higher score she could receive on the retest.

MIT has historical data that show how students who score at certain levels on certain tests do in college, and thus treat the SAT/ACTs as predictors for success or causes for concern rather than as objective qualifiers in and of themselves. Look at the admissions website - they say right there that once you score at least a 650 you're pretty OK on scores, meaning it won't keep you out.

This has been less true internationally. The major Korean university just announced they are switching to holistic admissions and convened a summit of Ivy+ admissions deans to help them through the process; Oxbridge is famously numbers-driven, but has begun to inch towards a holistic system as well.

Part of the reasons undergraduate universities have managed to escape the pressure on rankings a la professional schools is because it's so hard to measure. You rank by major, by private vs public, by this and that, and sooner or later every place is near the top in some characteristic. There isn't really a T14 equivalent for undergrads, and that's a really good thing.

Petey fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Jul 15, 2010

# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:01

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/in-defense-of-going-to-law-school/#more-21568

quote:

1. If a law degree is like a lottery ticket, remember: some people still win.

Biglaw is not the be-all and end-all of the legal profession. We happen to focus a lot on it here at Above the Law because it's our target demographic (for various reasons, both editorial and business-related). But we don't mean to imply, through our extensive coverage of large law firms, that other sectors of the legal profession aren't worthwhile. Many of these sectors are very well-served by their own niche blogs, e.g., solo practitioners. [FN2]

But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Biglaw is the pinnacle of the profession, and that your goal in going to law school is to wind up an Am Law 100 or Vault 100 firm, or maybe a National Law Journal 250 firm. Is law school a wise idea?

If you go to a highly-ranked law school, then the answer is "probably yes." As we recently discussed with respect to Cornell Law School, which is #13 in the influential U.S. News rankings, around 40 to 50 percent of their graduates will end up at NLJ 250 law firms. A 50-50 chance of getting a six-figure salary, probably while you're still in your twenties, in the worst recession that most Americans have ever experienced, is not a bad thing.

The "yes" option only gets stronger as you climb higher into the rankings. Students at the dozen schools that are higher than Cornell in the rankings have just as good if not better shots at Biglaw.

Even if you go to a law school that's not very high in the rankings, if you kick complete rear end excel academically there, you have a perfectly good shot at a large law firm job. If you are in the top 10 percent, or top 10 people, or top 5 people, depending on where you go, you can get a job at a place like Cravath or Sullivan & Cromwell. Or you can transfer to a higher-ranked law school, and from there get a job at a firm like Wachtell or Davis Polk.

CLARIFICATION: In the foregoing paragraph, I'm not trying to draw any distinction between the four named firms, which I use interchangeably as leading law firms. All I'm saying is that if you do well enough in law school, even at a non-top-tier law school, you can end up at a firm like one of these four (whether after transferring or not).

Granted, you would have had a better shot had you graduated in 2006. But you still have a sho, which can't be said if you don't go to law school at all.

In this sense, then, law school is like a lottery - you need to be in it to win it. And make no mistake; there are winners out there. Over the years, I've met many graduates of law schools not high in the hierarchy who have managed to land at large law firms (through their academic performance, post-graduate performance as practicing lawyers, personal connections, or some combination thereof).

(Or think of the graduates of schools outside the so-called "T14" who go on to clerk for the Supreme Court. There aren't many of them, but they do exist. Justice Alito recently hired a Seton Hall graduate as a clerk, for example, and Justice Thomas in October Term 2008 hired all four clerks from outside the T14. To these Supreme Court clerks, aka "The Elect," the legal world is their oyster, as are $250,000 signing bonuses when they leave their clerkships for firms. Had they never gone to law school, on the thinking that I didn't get into a top 14 school so it's not worth it, they would not be where they are today.)

Is winding up at Biglaw a likely employment outcome for someone who matriculates at what Elizabeth Wurtzel might regard as an eighth-rate law school? No. But it is a possible outcome for this person and an essentially impossible outcome for someone who never sets foot in a school of law.

2. There are many great career options in law outside of large law firms.

Here's another way of putting this point: Go to law school because you want to be a lawyer.

And keep in mind that there are so many ways to be a lawyer. The existence of viable options beyond Biglaw is a point I made in our earlier post looking at placement data for students at Cornell Law School:

quote:
There are so many options for law-related employment outside of Biglaw: midsize or small law firms, federal government (e.g., the DOJ Honors Program), state government, clerkships (federal and state), fellowships, non-profits / public interest, and in-house (yes, even for new graduates). And that's without even touching upon the many career alternatives for attorneys all the things you can do with a law degree that don't involve practicing law.

And that listing wasn't even exhaustive. For example, I forgot to mention legal academia, which is what a plurality of my law school classmates are doing. Being a law professor is a great gig: you get to think deep thoughts and be a Public Intellectual, while working nine months a year for a six-figure salary (for most law professors, at least those in tenure-track positions at ABA-accredited law schools). And, as even Elie would concede, the market for law professor talent is hot right now thanks in part to the record number of people wanting to enter law school.

Granted, getting a job as a law professor can be difficult, given the academic credentials that are typically required. But there are so many other options, especially outside the big cities. For example, many law students come from families of lawyers, where law is the family business (and often a very successful one, Big Law isn't the only source of Big Pay). These students don't have to worry about breaking into Biglaw. They can simply join the familial law practice, learning at the elbow of a parent or grandparent or other relative, and inherit the practice and the clients when the relative in question retires.

3. What else are you going to do with yourself?

The Great Recession has affected career opportunities not just in law, but in numerous other fields, many of them the main alternatives to law school and the legal profession.
In the words of the blogger behind The 30-Something Law Student:

quote:
[T]ell me, which job market is good right now? Medicine? Engineering? Even those have been hit to some degree. The truth is, there is no good job market right now. The whole country is in a depression, and every field is tough to break into.

See also this New York Times article (a profile of Scott Nicholson, a recent college graduate who went to a good school, studied political science, and got good grades, i.e., the kind of person who goes to law school, and who hasn't been able to find a job for months).

Or consider the case of Emily Johns, one of the incoming law students featured in the NLJ article. Johns states that she is going to law school because "I want to be a lawyer, not because I'm running away from these scary times in the journalism industry." But Johns admits that law school started to look much more appealing after her employer, the Minneapolis Star-Tribune, declared bankruptcy. Law firms aren't always the most fun places to work, but they are (usually) solvent.

In other words, law isn't the only field that's suffering. And many of the professions that are in similarly dire straits, such as journalism and publishing, are the ones that used to welcome the humanities and soft-sciences majors who flock to law school. To quote the great song from Avenue Q, "What do you do with a B.A. in English?" (No offense to English majors. I was one myself.)

The lack of opportunities in other fields affects the decision to go to law school in at least two ways. First, it reduces the opportunity cost of the three years you spend in law school (as noted by Professor Sarah Waldeck over at Concurring Opinions, among many others). Thanks to the awful economy, most kids fresh out of college aren't forgoing three years of a six-figure salary in order to go to law school; they might instead be missing out on a significant period of unemployment (a la Scott Nicholson).

Second, it increases the appeal of the possible options after law school. Sure, your chances of landing a $160,000 a year job at a major law firm may be slim. But how many non-legal career paths even given you a viable shot at that kind of pay (and prestige), just three short years down the road?

4. Not everyone graduates with debt (or with as much debt as some people think).

I was lucky enough to graduate law school debt-free; my parents paid for my college and law school. And I'm not alone. According to the Law School Survey of Student Engagement (figure 7), over 10 percent of law students will graduate with zero debt, and another 5 percent or so will graduate with less than $20,000 in student loans. So somewhere between 15 and 20 percent of law school graduates leave school with little to no debt and a valuable professional degree to show for their efforts.

There are several reasons why perhaps a fifth of law school graduates have little or no debt. Some have parents, grandparents or spouses who are willing to help out with educational costs. Some have savings from pre-law-school careers, in lucrative fields such as finance or consulting.

And some attend reasonably priced state schools and/or receive very generous scholarship money. The dean of one top 25 law school told me earlier this year that about two-thirds of his school's students receive some form of scholarship aid from the school. See also UC Irvine, where the first entering class received full scholarships for all three years, and the second entering class will get scholarships covering at least half of their tuition for all three years. In some cases, the scholarship money in question may be large enough to affect your choice of law school.

So the sticker price of law school, in terms of the cost you see on the law school website or in brochures, can be misleading. Many students aren't paying full freight and many of the students who are paying full freight can afford to.

5. You get to put "Esq." after your name.

Okay, that's a pretty lame reason. Unlike doctors or professors, we lawyers don't get titles before our names. In my ancestral homeland of the Philippines, lawyers are addressed as "Attorney," e.g., "Attorney Lat." Not so here in the United States.

But despite the lack of a fancy title, being a lawyer has a lot to recommend it. There are plenty of bad reasons to go to law school, but there are plenty of good reasons, too.

These arguments are so intentionally weak that they're hilarious. David Lat is one passive-aggressive motherfucker.

Eric Cantonese fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Jul 15, 2010

# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:03

builds character: Jan 16, 2008; Keep at it.

TyChan posted:

These arguments are so intentionally weak that they're hilarious. David Lat, Esq. is one passive-aggressive motherfucker.

# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:07

Petey: Nov 26, 2005; For who knows what is good for a person in life, during the few and meaningless days they pass through like a shadow? Who can tell them what will happen under the sun after they are gone?

TyChan posted:

David Lat is one passive-aggressive motherfucker.

No, he's a deeply committed and very effective troll.

# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:08

Defleshed: Nov 18, 2004; F is for... FREEDOM

Ainsley McTree posted:

What was your background before that?

Magic 8-Ball says white upper middle class from a college educated and in-tact family, but Magic 8-Ball is so cynical these days...

# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:10

Ainsley McTree: Feb 19, 2004

Robawesome posted:

and fitness is, uh, a physical?

Haha. I guess it's rude to laugh but I dunno I just thought that was funny. No, it just means ethical/moral fitness, fitness to join the profession. It's the same thing as character really

Defleshed posted:

Magic 8-Ball says white upper middle class from a college educated and in-tact family, but Magic 8-Ball is so cynical these days...

I was wondering more if he had a background in business, any kind of predisposition to being able to run his own shop. It seems to me that running your own (successful) solo practice requires skills and experiences and hustle that most law school grads won't have unless they get them from somewhere else seeing as how they don't make any attempt to teach you them in law school. Did poofactory just figure it all out for himself as he went along, or did he have an entrepreneurial background to begin with?

# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:21

JudicialRestraints: Oct 26, 2007; Are you a LAWYER? Because I'll have you know I got GOOD GRADES in LAW SCHOOL last semester. Don't even try to argue THE LAW with me.

Career Services posted:

Dear JudicialRestraints:

The Midwest-Cali Los Angeles/West Coast Interview Program has been changed from an in-person interview program to a resume collection program due to the economy and the level of employer interest.

All employers in the Los Angeles/West Coast session of this program will receive a packet of applicant materials and follow up with applicants that they would like to interview. If you are interested in these employers, you should continue to bid on the employers in this session. Do NOT travel to Los Angeles for this program. If you have questions about this, please contact your school's career office. Additionally, we recommend you discuss your interest in this region with your career counselor to develop an appropriate strategy for reaching employers in this region.

Please note: The New York/East Coast and the Washington D.C./Mid-Atlantic programs are proceeding as planned as in-person interview programs.

Thank you.

The Career Center, The University of Minnesota Law School

Welp. Time to hit the bottle.

# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:22

poofactory: May 6, 2003; by T. Finn

Ainsley McTree posted:

What was your background before that?

diablo/civilization

nm posted:

Shockingly, the legal market was different in the 90s.
Much easier to hang out a shingle then.

I think it is easier now. The best times to start a business is during a recession. Less competition. Plus everyone uses the internet now. Start building a web site in law school, get some traffic and then when you graduate, pull them in.

My business right now is off the charts compared to the last several years.

# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:23

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

poofactory posted:

My business right now is off the charts compared to the last several years.

What is your specific practice area?

# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:34

Adar: Jul 27, 2001

poofactory posted:

You guys can make all the excuses you want about it being too hard and that's probably why you can't do it. But that's what I did and have been doing for 10+ years.

My close relative did it in the mid-90's with the added handicap of not speaking great English and, to this day, being unable to go to court (the rear end in a top hat judge making fun of her accent from the bench didn't help, not even after he got disbarred).

Of course, she was bilingual in a community few people served at the time, had 20 years of experience practicing in another country and got a lot of help from that community that she still spent years repaying. Oh yeah, because of her overseas education she went to school for one year instead of three and her loans were correspondingly lower.

There's no loving way it could be done right now in this business climate by a fresh law school graduate without someone to subsidize them for the first couple of years. She's the first to admit it.

# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:38

Mookie: Mar 22, 2005; I have to return some videotapes.

Petey posted:

No, he's a deeply committed and very effective troll.

Hiring Elie Mystal was the masterstroke of his trolling.

# ? Jul 15, 2010 01:01

Draile: May 6, 2004; forlorn llama

I guess if you're really not interested in Biglaw you can settle for DOJ honors or a federal clerkship. Thanks, Lat.

I wonder how many 0Ls are going to be suckered by this.

# ? Jul 15, 2010 01:40

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

poofactory posted:

The legal economy is strong and rubust... for some. Many lawyers and law students just do not understand how to be successful. There are many rich and lead rewarding lives and some that even make good money while working few hours. It is all about playing the system and having the knowledge and ability to be successful. Most people do not have these abilities.

Title/post combination.

Business posted:

reproduction of hierarchy bitchezzz

Read Duncan Kennedy everyday. :350:

# ? Jul 15, 2010 01:40

GamingHyena: Jul 25, 2003; Devil's Advocate

Draile posted:

I guess if you're really not interested in Biglaw you can settle for DOJ honors or a federal clerkship. Thanks, Lat.

I wonder how many 0Ls are going to be suckered by this.

You could always find entry level employment as Lindsey Lohan's new attorney of the week. No experience apparently necessary.

# ? Jul 15, 2010 02:17

Phil Moscowitz: Feb 19, 2007; If blood be the price of admiralty,
Lord God, we ha' paid in full!

Isn't poofactory the eve guy whose dick got faxed to his office

# ? Jul 15, 2010 03:07

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Perks of being your own boss, I guess. Unless the secretary's been looking to sue you.

# ? Jul 15, 2010 03:11

G-Mawwwwwww: Jan 31, 2003; My LPth are Hot Garbage; Biscuit Hider

Halloween Jack posted:

Perks of being your own boss, I guess. Unless the secretary's been looking to sue you.

I don't know if I've posted this in this thread BUT

There's a large firm who had a partner carrying on with the secretary. They have a falling out. The secretary sues the firm for sexual harassment. The partner has a "bad deposition day" and reveals quite a few things. Firm settles with secretary for a 7 figure chunk.

Partner gets married to secretary, still works there.

P.S. William Munny this was your "dream firm"

G-Mawwwwwww fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Jul 15, 2010

# ? Jul 15, 2010 03:23

Defenestration: Aug 10, 2006; "It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"; Grimey Drawer

Phil Moscowitz posted:

Isn't poofactory the eve guy whose dick got faxed to his office

No the Eve dude was InternetRulesLawyer I think

# ? Jul 15, 2010 03:51

GamingHyena: Jul 25, 2003; Devil's Advocate

CaptainScraps posted:

I don't know if I've posted this in this thread BUT

There's a large firm who had a partner carrying on with the secretary. They have a falling out. The secretary sues the firm for sexual harassment. The partner has a "bad deposition day" and reveals quite a few things. Firm settles with secretary for a 7 figure chunk.

Partner gets married to secretary, still works there.

P.S. William Munny this was your "dream firm"

GamingHyena's path to law school success:

1. go to law school. doesn't matter which school, just keep the debt low
2. get a law license.
3. find an area of law with a high demand
4. Get girlfriend hired for secretary position.
5. "Sexually harass" her after our very public and well documented falling out
6. Torpedo my firm's defense in depositions making my girlfriend an instant millionaire
7. Marry a bunch of money

It is a simple formula but not many lawyers can make it work successfully.

# ? Jul 15, 2010 03:58

Incredulous Red: Mar 25, 2008

Not reading 600 posts.

Taking a break from civil, helping with a criminal ENVIRONMENTAL LAW case.

Environmental law panda. With teeth.

# ? Jul 15, 2010 04:07

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 16, 2024 06:07

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

GamingHyena posted:

You could always find entry level employment as Lindsey Lohan's new attorney of the week. No experience apparently necessary.

Univ of West Los Angeles; Los Angeles CA
A quality institution, only second to Yale.

# ? Jul 15, 2010 04:44

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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