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TyChan posted:Please elaborate. 1. go to law school. doesn't matter which school, just keep the debt low 2. get a law license. 3. find an area of law with a high demand 4. learn how to practice 5. start a firm 6. run the business effectively 7. make a bunch of money It is a simple formula but not many lawyers can make it work successfully. Most don't even try and prefer to work for someone else hoping they'll get some scraps thrown their way.
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# ? Jul 14, 2010 22:04 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 05:35 |
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builds character posted:Technology has also had an impact on the market. Because of advances in technology, firms staff deals more leanly and are able to distribute work among offices more easily. Before you needed six people to go to the printer and physically look at an OM. Now you need one associate who sends a PDF to the printer and reviews it when you get it back.
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# ? Jul 14, 2010 22:05 |
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builds character posted:Things are definitely picking up in the legal market. Whether or not that extends to the rest of the economy is a different question entirely. Job-wise or activity wise? Activity in New York is picking up and associates are definitely more busy than they used to be, but from what I was getting told, these transactions were happening because if they didn't happen, people were going to be bleeding money and a lot of financial clients couldn't just sit around doing nothing. Financial activity is not picking up enough to increase hiring rates, give laid-off attorneys their jobs back, or otherwise provide jobs to current and aspiring law students the way they were getting handed out during the late 90s or between 2005-2007. quote:I think it's uncommon for firms to represent clients in litigation where the firm also represented the firm in the transaction that leads to the litigation. This actually happens quite a lot from my experience, but I guess I should have been clearer and said that firms usually parlay a role in the transactions into generating litigation business because clients used to ask "hey _____, we have an issue with this transaction gone wrong, do you have anyone who can deal with it?" and then the firm would say, "oh, but of course." That cycle has been damaged, if not outright broken, in many respects. poofactory posted:1. go to law school. doesn't matter which school, just keep the debt low From my experience, most people going to law school are going to law school because they don't want to be straight-out entrepreneurs. Also, "learn how to practice," usually involves working for a firm or otherwise finding a way to parlay your (mostly) useless JD into a opportunity to learn how to be a real lawyer. That requires going back into dealing with the whole job-finding system and economic challenge you're dismissing so casually. "Learning how to practice" in "areas of law with high demand" really means "become a firm partner in a good practice group and then spin off." Eric Cantonese fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Jul 14, 2010 |
# ? Jul 14, 2010 22:07 |
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poofactory posted:1. go to law school. doesn't matter which school, just keep the debt low I suspect that some of these steps are more complicated to execute than you're making them out to be
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# ? Jul 14, 2010 22:07 |
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Ainsley McTree posted:I suspect that some of these steps are more complicated to execute than you're making them out to be 4, 5, and 6 spring to mind immediately.
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# ? Jul 14, 2010 22:13 |
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poofactory posted:4. learn how to practice "Hello BIGBANK. I am a newly minted attorney from TTT and I would like to start a solo practice with zero experience. Please lend me lots of money so that I may operate out of an office instead of my house, buy malpractice insurance and pay myself a salary. Also, please ignore any amount of student loans I may already have in the process. TIA"
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# ? Jul 14, 2010 22:14 |
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Halloween Jack posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that before technology simplified things, a law degree was basically an investment which earned you the right to get paid a lot of money to do simple office work anyone could handle? Well, it's more like the right to handle simple office work dealing with matters that legally required a professional license, while hopefully parlaying that into an opportunity to do more specialized work.
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# ? Jul 14, 2010 22:17 |
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Halloween Jack posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that before technology simplified things, a law degree was basically an investment which earned you the right to get paid a lot of money to do simple office work anyone could handle? No. Most people can do the stuff that first years do and paralegals and assistants sometimes do it. Experienced paralegals are frequently far more useful than a junior associate. But (i) at some point (I think second year but it will probably depend on your practice) the work that you're doing requires some thinking and you need to know the law to be able to do that thinking (not that you couldn't learn the law on the job, but see ii) and (ii) this probably counts as practicing law and you have to be a lawyer to practice law. TyChan posted:Job-wise or activity wise? Job-wise for experienced lateral associates and activity wise generally. Sure, it's nowhere near 2006 but it's also a significant step up from where we were a year ago. And yes, it's not creating any new jobs for anyone without a job. This is not my experience but I'm happy accepting that my experience isn't representative and I'm certainly not a litigator or a partner so I may just not know about it. I have seen a lot of cross-pollination, for lack of a better term, among transactional practice groups.
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# ? Jul 14, 2010 22:32 |
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You guys can make all the excuses you want about it being too hard and that's probably why you can't do it. But that's what I did and have been doing for 10+ years.
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# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:23 |
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poofactory posted:You guys can make all the excuses you want about it being too hard and that's probably why you can't do it. But that's what I did and have been doing for 10+ years. I am personally not rubust enough to handle such a difficult endeavor.
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# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:26 |
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poofactory posted:You guys can make all the excuses you want about it being too hard and that's probably why you can't do it. But that's what I did and have been doing for 10+ years. What was your background before that?
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# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:27 |
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Is the LSAT score curved or absolute? Like, does a 180 mean you are in the the x'th percentile or that you got every question right? And if it's the former, is there a rough estimate as to the number of questions correct each score is? Thanks
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# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:28 |
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TyChan posted:Keep in mind that Mookie, as a well-versed big firm guy, might be able to come in and point out why this is all crap, but this is the sense I've been getting from looking at how everything in NYC is going down. It is a combination of this and the reduction of barriers to information access. There's less work that still requires significant legal guidance/involvement (IPOs etc.) which leads to less work that absolutely requires it (litigation) and so the big firm business model took a serious whack. Add to that that most lawyers are terrible at running businesses, and you have a recipe for disaster. builds character posted:Job-wise for experienced lateral associates and activity wise generally. Sure, it's nowhere near 2006 but it's also a significant step up from where we were a year ago. And yes, it's not creating any new jobs for anyone without a job. This is very true. There is an uptick in hiring recently. Firms shed too many bodies (or didn't hire enough during the really bad years) and now need to make it up. From what I've seen, the best opportunities are for junior associate laterals (class of 2007-2009) and very experienced lawyers. Most firms have a gigantic glut of attorneys in the 2004-2006 classes, since that was when they would hire anyone with a JD. a lot of people in those years are still in the process of being shaken out. For what it is worth, four people I work with have found new jobs in the last few months, and I know several more who are in the advanced stages of the interview game. Now is the time for firms to scoop up unhappy talent, while a lot of associates are trying to position themselves to benefit from the uptick in legal work.
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# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:30 |
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poofactory posted:You guys can make all the excuses you want about it being too hard and that's probably why you can't do it. But that's what I did and have been doing for 10+ years. Much easier to hang out a shingle then.
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# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:31 |
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is it possible to become a lawyer with a criminal record?
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# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:41 |
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Robawesome posted:is it possible to become a lawyer with a criminal record? Depends on the crime though. Caught with some pot? No one cares. Embezzled $5.2 million, I recommend a different career path.
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# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:45 |
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nm posted:Yes. Though it can be harder to pass character and fitness. If you don't mind, can you explain to me what character and fitness are? I'm guessing character is a thorough and personal background check and fitness is, uh, a physical?
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# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:46 |
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Robawesome posted:is it possible to become a lawyer with a criminal record? Did you rob someone awesome?
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# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:49 |
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Stunt Rock posted:Did you rob someone awesome? haha, no, but after some mild paranoia from my question in the legal questions thread i discovered some idiot actually owns https://www.robawesome.com
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# ? Jul 14, 2010 23:51 |
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SWATJester posted:What makes you think that colleges actually look at applicants holistically? Depends on the college. Most schools don't - but then again, the vast majority of colleges admit more students than they reject. The most selective undergraduate schools in the country are heavily holistic, with a few notable exceptions (for example CalTech). Some of those "holistic" practices are still essentially reproductive of hierarchy (see: legacy admissions), but not all schools give such weight to such things, and it's generally balanced out by a litany of other considerations (sensitive to socioeconomic status, a desire for breadth in rural vs urban populations, etc). Don't get me wrong, colleges still care about numbers. But not in the same way law schools, or med schools, do. MIT, for example, treats the SATs as a model. Overall scores basically mean nothing: Matt McGann, MIT Admissions posted:People make a big deal about test scores. No one seems to believe me when I tell them that when I'm reading an application, I just glance at the test scores to get a sense of them before moving on to the more important parts of the application -- that is, who you are. But here's an example. So, I'm reading this application of a student, a pretty strong student, who's definitely overcome some challenges recently. I come to the second to last piece in the folder, which is the guidance counselor letter (the last piece is the interview report). The GC makes a big deal of the student's "scoring the magic 1600 on the SAT." Now, when I started the case, I mentally noted to myself, "Okay, this student has scores that are fine, let's move on," but it didn't really make an impact on me that the student had "the magic 1600." Yes, scoring a 1600 is something that you, your school, your parents, and your guidance counselor can be very proud of. But it's not something I'm going to bust out my highlighter for, circle in big red pen, make it the focus of your case. In fact, I don't think I have ever in my summary of a student used high standardized scores as an argument to admit that student. MIT has historical data that show how students who score at certain levels on certain tests do in college, and thus treat the SAT/ACTs as predictors for success or causes for concern rather than as objective qualifiers in and of themselves. Look at the admissions website - they say right there that once you score at least a 650 you're pretty OK on scores, meaning it won't keep you out. This has been less true internationally. The major Korean university just announced they are switching to holistic admissions and convened a summit of Ivy+ admissions deans to help them through the process; Oxbridge is famously numbers-driven, but has begun to inch towards a holistic system as well. Part of the reasons undergraduate universities have managed to escape the pressure on rankings a la professional schools is because it's so hard to measure. You rank by major, by private vs public, by this and that, and sooner or later every place is near the top in some characteristic. There isn't really a T14 equivalent for undergrads, and that's a really good thing. Petey fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Jul 15, 2010 |
# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:01 |
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http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/in-defense-of-going-to-law-school/#more-21568quote:1. If a law degree is like a lottery ticket, remember: some people still win. These arguments are so intentionally weak that they're hilarious. David Lat is one passive-aggressive motherfucker. Eric Cantonese fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Jul 15, 2010 |
# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:03 |
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TyChan posted:These arguments are so intentionally weak that they're hilarious. David Lat, Esq. is one passive-aggressive motherfucker.
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# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:07 |
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TyChan posted:David Lat is one passive-aggressive motherfucker. No, he's a deeply committed and very effective troll.
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# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:08 |
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Ainsley McTree posted:What was your background before that? Magic 8-Ball says white upper middle class from a college educated and in-tact family, but Magic 8-Ball is so cynical these days...
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# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:10 |
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Robawesome posted:and fitness is, uh, a physical? Haha. I guess it's rude to laugh but I dunno I just thought that was funny. No, it just means ethical/moral fitness, fitness to join the profession. It's the same thing as character really Defleshed posted:Magic 8-Ball says white upper middle class from a college educated and in-tact family, but Magic 8-Ball is so cynical these days... I was wondering more if he had a background in business, any kind of predisposition to being able to run his own shop. It seems to me that running your own (successful) solo practice requires skills and experiences and hustle that most law school grads won't have unless they get them from somewhere else seeing as how they don't make any attempt to teach you them in law school. Did poofactory just figure it all out for himself as he went along, or did he have an entrepreneurial background to begin with?
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# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:21 |
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Career Services posted:Dear JudicialRestraints: Welp. Time to hit the bottle.
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# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:22 |
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Ainsley McTree posted:What was your background before that? diablo/civilization nm posted:Shockingly, the legal market was different in the 90s. I think it is easier now. The best times to start a business is during a recession. Less competition. Plus everyone uses the internet now. Start building a web site in law school, get some traffic and then when you graduate, pull them in. My business right now is off the charts compared to the last several years.
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# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:23 |
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poofactory posted:My business right now is off the charts compared to the last several years. What is your specific practice area?
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# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:34 |
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poofactory posted:You guys can make all the excuses you want about it being too hard and that's probably why you can't do it. But that's what I did and have been doing for 10+ years. My close relative did it in the mid-90's with the added handicap of not speaking great English and, to this day, being unable to go to court (the rear end in a top hat judge making fun of her accent from the bench didn't help, not even after he got disbarred). Of course, she was bilingual in a community few people served at the time, had 20 years of experience practicing in another country and got a lot of help from that community that she still spent years repaying. Oh yeah, because of her overseas education she went to school for one year instead of three and her loans were correspondingly lower. There's no loving way it could be done right now in this business climate by a fresh law school graduate without someone to subsidize them for the first couple of years. She's the first to admit it.
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# ? Jul 15, 2010 00:38 |
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Petey posted:No, he's a deeply committed and very effective troll. Hiring Elie Mystal was the masterstroke of his trolling.
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# ? Jul 15, 2010 01:01 |
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I guess if you're really not interested in Biglaw you can settle for DOJ honors or a federal clerkship. Thanks, Lat. I wonder how many 0Ls are going to be suckered by this.
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# ? Jul 15, 2010 01:40 |
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poofactory posted:The legal economy is strong and rubust... for some. Many lawyers and law students just do not understand how to be successful. There are many rich and lead rewarding lives and some that even make good money while working few hours. It is all about playing the system and having the knowledge and ability to be successful. Most people do not have these abilities. Title/post combination. Business posted:reproduction of hierarchy bitchezzz Read Duncan Kennedy everyday.
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# ? Jul 15, 2010 01:40 |
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Draile posted:I guess if you're really not interested in Biglaw you can settle for DOJ honors or a federal clerkship. Thanks, Lat. You could always find entry level employment as Lindsey Lohan's new attorney of the week. No experience apparently necessary.
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# ? Jul 15, 2010 02:17 |
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Isn't poofactory the eve guy whose dick got faxed to his office
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# ? Jul 15, 2010 03:07 |
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Perks of being your own boss, I guess. Unless the secretary's been looking to sue you.
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# ? Jul 15, 2010 03:11 |
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Halloween Jack posted:Perks of being your own boss, I guess. Unless the secretary's been looking to sue you. I don't know if I've posted this in this thread BUT There's a large firm who had a partner carrying on with the secretary. They have a falling out. The secretary sues the firm for sexual harassment. The partner has a "bad deposition day" and reveals quite a few things. Firm settles with secretary for a 7 figure chunk. Partner gets married to secretary, still works there. P.S. William Munny this was your "dream firm" G-Mawwwwwww fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Jul 15, 2010 |
# ? Jul 15, 2010 03:23 |
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Phil Moscowitz posted:Isn't poofactory the eve guy whose dick got faxed to his office
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# ? Jul 15, 2010 03:51 |
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CaptainScraps posted:I don't know if I've posted this in this thread BUT GamingHyena's path to law school success: 1. go to law school. doesn't matter which school, just keep the debt low 2. get a law license. 3. find an area of law with a high demand 4. Get girlfriend hired for secretary position. 5. "Sexually harass" her after our very public and well documented falling out 6. Torpedo my firm's defense in depositions making my girlfriend an instant millionaire 7. Marry a bunch of money It is a simple formula but not many lawyers can make it work successfully.
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# ? Jul 15, 2010 03:58 |
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Not reading 600 posts. Taking a break from civil, helping with a criminal ENVIRONMENTAL LAW case. Environmental law panda. With teeth.
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# ? Jul 15, 2010 04:07 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 05:35 |
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GamingHyena posted:You could always find entry level employment as Lindsey Lohan's new attorney of the week. No experience apparently necessary. A quality institution, only second to Yale.
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# ? Jul 15, 2010 04:44 |