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Hungry Gerbil posted:The XP penalty is a good incentive to be scared of dying. What I'd do is work-out something with the player. If they're willing to play a morose, tortured, damaged character, plagued by nightmares or whatever, you could make the changes from the medivat regen-process real and game-changing, without crippling them mechanically.
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Jul 30, 2010 02:58
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Angry Midwesterner posted:Inapplicable (typically) in Star Wars. Even when it's genre appropriate, depending on player access to the spell and the costs the edition/homerules impose on it, it may not represent much in the way of consequences.
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Jul 30, 2010 03:36
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If you wanted to be more Star Warsy you could even have a side plot related to Spaarti clones. Cloning in the EU is pretty much universally (haha) terrible but I think a good GM could make it work. What was the failed Survival roll that lead to a death? That is pretty brutal.
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Jul 30, 2010 07:40
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Karandras posted:What was the failed Survival roll that lead to a death? That is pretty brutal. Just the standard unconsciousness roll. After something like ten rounds of being brought to zero hit points, they're supposed to roll a con check (which I secretly rolled a few rounds ahead of time to see if I would need to find a way to intervene), a fail by 5 or more is death, with nothing to be done for it unless you happen to have an ally standing right there with a med kit ready to go with a full round Revive action. A creative reading of the rules might allow for them to burn a Force point to stay breathing (strictly speaking, that's only to initially avoid dying if you get brought to 0 hp by an attack that beats your damage threshold), but I just went for the "Villain revives you and says he's letting you live to deliver a message." The worst part is this was the result of an encounter with a significantly lower level group of opponents. Albeit ones statted out in an official WotC adventure to be swinging way too much Force lightning.
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Jul 30, 2010 08:02
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Oh right yeah, I thought you meant the Survival skill. Like, "oh hey you land in the tattooine desert, roll survival! Oh you only got a 6? welp, no food and water for you, here is a blank character sheet". I skimmed the revive rules for first aid, it is pretty harsh if it is only the round after. Maybe you could change it to con modifier of rounds or something to help with that?
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Jul 30, 2010 08:05
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It is harsh, but either way doesn't really address the problem for me because it's still coming down to a winner-take-all roll. Succeed and go on your merry way or die (what is often) a bullshit, plot-hurting death. The cyborg and clone stuff could be useful though.
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Jul 30, 2010 08:13
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Well, it does add an extra "winner takes all" roll to the end of it if your party wasn't regularly getting the revive save. Yeah, having players die sucks but having them be impossible to kill is equally unenjoyable. Did you want to go the resurrection penalties for clones route? Simple things like requiring frequent medical checks, grafts etc (A comparison to having an unreliable ship requiring mechanics checks regularly) are non-crippling but flavourful. Adding a constant need to clone more organs etc as your body breaks down adds a cool element to the character.
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Jul 30, 2010 08:19
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Yeah, I'm thinking that's the way to go.
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Jul 30, 2010 08:24
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Flaws are cool, XP penalties are stupid, Communist XP for lyfe.
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Jul 30, 2010 09:06
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I agree, and take it a step further. No XP at all. Just tell the players when to level up. Level advancement (or skill progression or however a given system swings it) is really there to keep the mechanics interesting, so it's best left as a matter of judgment of when to level the group to avoid stagnation. Frankly, attaching XP rewards to various stuff is a little insulting. I don't see why we should need a bribe to play well/interestingly.
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Jul 30, 2010 09:13
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The only game I'm in right now is Weekly Werewolf so my brain isn't working in terms of levels lately, but "level when it makes sense" is a pretty great way to go about things 
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Jul 30, 2010 09:17
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Well, XP and XP penalties work for my group. You also have to keep in mind that you earn more XP if you are on a lower level. That means players catch up to the group sooner or later. Are your players all crybabies that cannot live with the consequences of dying?
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Jul 30, 2010 09:44
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They can handle it but we all want those consequences to be interesting.
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Jul 30, 2010 10:09
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Yeah, I skip the book keeping of XP and just level my players when it is appropriate (Generally every 2 sessions or so but at the end of a "mission" when possible) so that XP penalty for being a lower level doesn't work. Also if you have drastically different levels it makes combat super awkward but it is fun narratively sometimes (Jedi with a Padawan, for example)
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Jul 30, 2010 10:20
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Well, I don't want to force you to use XP, but don't call it stupid if it doesn't work for you. It's a perfectly fine system if applied correctly.
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Jul 30, 2010 10:30
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The reason it doesn't work for him is because it's stupid.  
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Jul 30, 2010 11:39
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It isn't. I'm right and you are wrong. 
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Jul 30, 2010 11:44
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rather than killing off dudes just knock them out, force them to have that character in a bacta tank for a while, lop off limbs and make them get new, robot limbs. The films suggest that a shitload of fatal injuries are totally survivable if you are willing to become more machine than man or spend a week in a jar. Or figure out a way to introduce new characters in advance so that it doesn't stop the whole game when somebody dies and you need to figure out what is next.
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Jul 30, 2010 14:54
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Hungry Gerbil posted:Well, I don't want to force you to use XP, but don't call it stupid if it doesn't work for you. It's a perfectly fine system if applied correctly. You realize I was the one that said that, and you're talking to more than one person right? XP penalties are still stupid, but it's ok if you use them, I won't tell the fun police. My basic issue with it is that XP loss is punishing the player rather than the character, which is dumb. I like me some challenging game just as much as the next guy, but having players with characters at disparate power levels doesn't sound super fun. Liesmith posted:rather than killing off dudes just knock them out, force them to have that character in a bacta tank for a while, lop off limbs and make them get new, robot limbs. The films suggest that a shitload of fatal injuries are totally survivable if you are willing to become more machine than man or spend a week in a jar. yeah like that crazy nigga with four arms who's mostly robot and all that's left is his heart
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Jul 30, 2010 18:25
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Pharmaskittle posted:I won't tell the fun police. You already have I'm the fun police. Eat poo poo funhavers you're going to the bighouse
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Jul 30, 2010 19:00
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Pharmaskittle posted:You realize I was the one that said that, and you're talking to more than one person right? XP penalties are still stupid, but it's ok if you use them, I won't tell the fun police. My basic issue with it is that XP loss is punishing the player rather than the character, which is dumb. I like me some challenging game just as much as the next guy, but having players with characters at disparate power levels doesn't sound super fun. Uh, that wasn't directed at you. And yes, if the gap between players gets too big, it's no fun any more. But in general you lose a level and are at half XP to the next level and you gain quite a bit more XP than the other players. And after one or two evenings the player is back at the same level as the rest of the group. The amount of XP loss should be adjusted according to the speed of leveling.
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Jul 30, 2010 19:16
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Hungry Gerbil posted:Uh, that wasn't directed at you. And yes, if the gap between players gets too big, it's no fun any more. But in general you lose a level and are at half XP to the next level quote:and you gain quite a bit more XP than the other players. quote:And after one or two evenings the player is back at the same level as the rest of the group.
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Jul 30, 2010 20:40
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Riidi WW posted:Actually, he isn't. Unless you're fudging the math the dude who got raised is going to be behind the rest of the group forever. He will never catch up in XP and they will always level sooner than him. That sounds fuckin' dumb. It's been a long time since I worked it out, but I think there's actually a tiny chance that the one who's behind can eventually "leapfrog" ahead--if he's 1 xp shy of level x, and everyone else is slightly into level x, the inflated xp can put him just slightly ahead of them. Eventually you're almost certain to end up the same level, though, unless being a level behind hurts your survivability and you get knocked down again because of that. Wash, rise, and repeat. I pretty much defaulted to "you level when I say you do" in no time at all, though. I can't really see a downside to doing it like that.
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Jul 31, 2010 02:13
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ZeeToo posted:I pretty much defaulted to "you level when I say you do" in no time at all, though. I can't really see a downside to doing it like that. if you handwaved "ehh, the XP is so minor in item creation it's not really an issue" I don't think the player would mind, but the 3rd time your level 3 party of 4 kills an ancient black dragon without so much as a hint of leveling I think they'd get rather annoyed How does the XP penalty with wish work with you though?
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Jul 31, 2010 12:42
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Forer posted:if you handwaved "ehh, the XP is so minor in item creation it's not really an issue" I don't think the player would mind, but the 3rd time your level 3 party of 4 kills an ancient black dragon without so much as a hint of leveling I think they'd get rather annoyed Mostly those problems are avoided by not playing 3.5, because XP costs for in-game powers is an asinine concept.
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Jul 31, 2010 13:39
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ZeeToo posted:"you level when I say you do" ... I can't really see a downside to doing it like that.
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Jul 31, 2010 13:55
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I'm a fan of what one Dm at our shop did. He levels as a number with two decimals. So you started at level 1.00, and in the first session you had 3 major and one minor encounter, so now your level 1.35. Kept the fill xp bar feeling with none of the math.
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Jul 31, 2010 14:10
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Ulta posted:I'm a fan of what one Dm at our shop did. He levels as a number with two decimals. So you started at level 1.00, and in the first session you had 3 major and one minor encounter, so now your level 1.35. Kept the fill xp bar feeling with none of the math. This is brilliant.
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Jul 31, 2010 15:40
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The big issue is that there are various reasons why some might get more than XP than others (item creation, your character was at the tavern instead of challenging a rival to a duel, etc.), so unlessit's totally communal you still have the party leveling at different times. I prefer to do this all at once because it seems more efficient than trying to run the session while one player or another is always paging through the books for a good feat and asking advice. So a group experience meter would work fine, but it's still another drat thing to actually add up official XP values. Since I don't feel like doing that, I usually just inform the group when they're a session or two from hitting the next level. But I also have them leveling a lot, sometimes even two levels at once, so it's not considered that big of a deal.
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Jul 31, 2010 19:03
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Forer posted:if you handwaved "ehh, the XP is so minor in item creation it's not really an issue" I don't think the player would mind, but the 3rd time your level 3 party of 4 kills an ancient black dragon without so much as a hint of leveling I think they'd get rather annoyed Sam_I_Am posted:I certainly play xp-less too, but I don't think you can argue that there's NO downside to that system. There are plenty of players that are xp-focused; they want to look at their xp-bar at the end of a session and say "Ooh, man, I'm 75% of the way through this level! I can't wait!" The major/minor experience bar is a really cool idea, too, but I never thought of that. It was just "everyone level now", which minimized headaches.
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Jul 31, 2010 19:42
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The issue of character death has come up in many games that I have played in or GMed, and after dealing with it a long time I've decided the best answer is the easiest one. Sit down with the group (preferably before the game starts) and talk about how you want to handle the deaths: full out you die when you die, death = knockout or serious injury, or maybe a hybrid where most of the time you can't die but in boss battles or important plot battles you can. There's also a lot of groups that really don't want character death in their heart of hearts but want to entertain the fantasy that it is possible and that the danger is "real." If you group is one of the first three, it's no problem. Lay things out to begin with and discuss the consequences then (I've never had a player so hosed up that I see a need to punish them for character death with more than, well, character death). You might think that knowing the characters can't die takes out the tension, but that doesn't mean the characters can't lose, and if people really want a game where the characters can't die, it's not like they're gonna be upset. If your group likes to be faked out I'd pretty much just fudge and lie your rear end off and not feel bad about it because that's what the whole "we want there to be a feeling of danger" line is really about. As long as everyone's on the same page you won't have a problem. The problem comes if you're all so busy working smoke and mirrors and poo poo that you're not listening or communicating what you all want out of the game.
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Aug 1, 2010 07:00
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What do you guys think of this encounter idea? My campaign revolves around the idea of necromancy being a recently-discovered/developed form of magic, which is still being researched by some (where it isn't outlawed, anyway). The BBEG is, naturally, a very powerful necromancer who's developing all kinds of awesome and never-before-seen necromancy spells. So this morning while I was waking up, I had an idea for an adventure which would take the party down, down, down a long and deep tomb, which would be mostly linear (or maybe it'd switch back and forth), but with plenty of side-rooms and corridors for treasure and smaller encounters, etc. I picture it to be something similar to this or this. In any case, near the bottom they'll have a brief encounter with the BBEG's lieutenant, who will then summon either a ginormous zombie, or have a whole shitload of zombies suddenly mass together and grab onto one another to form, essentially, a gigantic super-zombie (I like this idea better). The idea is I want the party to panic and try to escape as this thing charges at them, and in my mind I see them running back up the main corridor, taking potshots as they can, and occasionally the super-zombie gets stuck/blocked/hindered by something which it has to either find a way around, or bust through, and the party can take opportunities to plink away at his health until they get outside to a clearing, where he should be weakened enough that they can finish him off (but he'll still be a challenge). It seems cool in my mind, but I'm wondering how feasible that would be. Also, if there's some similar monster I could just reskin this as (We're doing 4e). I'm fully prepared for the possibility of them doing something insane like collapsing the tomb around him and squashing my awesome fight idea from the get-go, which quite frankly I'd probably reward them for (and throw some lesser encounter at them). Any thoughts, ideas, tips?
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Aug 1, 2010 08:01
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I see two potential problems: 1) Some groups are stupid and try to kill everything and die miserably to even the most obviously overpowered enemies. 2) Most of the time it's either fight or flight. Why should't they run right out of the tomb without attacking?
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Aug 1, 2010 08:12
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Yeah, those were also two major problems I foresaw. And honestly I have no solution to the first one without serious railroading (like, "he seems way too powerful to attack head-on, are you sure?"). Which would then probably lead directly into the second problem. While I hate the videogame trope of "magic walls suddenly appear and won't go away until you beat the boss," it may be a way to deal with that second one. Or, maybe while they're going down I could mention a part of the hallway with a floor that seems cracked and unstable, then while they're running from the dude they could all fall into some kind of ... gently caress, I forget the name, but it was a type of medieval prison with a domed ceiling where folks were basically tossed in and forgotten about. Or perhaps some arena-like chamber that they'd have to figure out how to climb out of afterward (perhaps climbing over zombie corpses?) But yeah... any advice would be appreciated. Even if it means scrapping the idea, haha
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Aug 1, 2010 08:22
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The Boss is just fast enough to keep pace with the rearmost of the group and grab him by use of some phony-baloney power. Let the players find out that damage will break his hold. To keep it from turning to an all-out brawl too soon, stress that they're being chased down a narrow corridor; the Boss will be closing on them one at a time, and you don't to get that close to this guy.
yronic heroism fucked around with this message at 09:32 on Aug 1, 2010 |
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Aug 1, 2010 09:29
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That's a great way of handling it, thanks  \/\/\/ yesssssssss, thank you! I knew it was french, but just couldn't come up with it. Son of Thunderbeast fucked around with this message at 11:35 on Aug 1, 2010 |
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Aug 1, 2010 09:44
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:I forget the name, but it was a type of medieval prison with a domed ceiling where folks were basically tossed in and forgotten about.
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Aug 1, 2010 11:24
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What do you guys recommend for keeping track of a 4th Ed campaign, DDI or Masterplan? Both seem to have their own strengths and weeknesses. Masterplan seems like a great way to organize the overarching plot, but DDI might have better encounter building tools. I've never DMed before but I am a fairly seasoned player. Basically I've begun writing out plot and scenarios just not sure where to go from there.
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Aug 1, 2010 15:12
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I have some ideas for encouraging the PCs to take potshots at the boss as they run. Maybe: 1) The boss is fairly quick, but it gets slowed down when they attack it. If they want to escape they have to damage it enough that it can't run at full speed. Perhaps its speed goes down when it's attacked, or it can't use two move actions in the same turn when it's attacked. 2) The boss zombie picks smaller undead off its body and flings them forward down the hallway. These little zombies are faster and have a power that slows or grabs, so the PCs want to kill them before they drag someone back to the boss. In general, as long as you make the PCs feel like the occasional attack is more rewarding than double move running they'll probably make some attacks.
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Aug 1, 2010 22:29
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Destructible terrain along the hallway that they can create obstacles with? I mean, I've never seen a movie chase scene that didnt have the the guy in front throwing random poo poo at the chasers.
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Aug 2, 2010 04:53
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