Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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Stunt Rock: Jul 28, 2002; DEATH WISH AT 120 DECIBELS

Phil Moscowitz posted:

The other guy was on speakerphone with me and the partner when he said it, and then he told me to take a shot of wild turkey and kept yelling "do it pussy" until I did it

What's it about? Northern District or Southern?

Indemnity for a bad faith insurance claim, along with separate claims from a separate incident for tortious interference, defamation, and abuse of process. Southern District. I'm representing the former baptist preacher who builds houses for people in Peru who lost their home in the earthquake. Notthe big mean insurance company.

# ? Aug 2, 2010 21:48

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# ? May 15, 2024 04:17

Lykourgos: Feb 17, 2010; by T. Finn

nudipedalia posted:

It's easy to construct the chain of tradition -> overwhelming societal interest (peace and democracy) -> English, I was looking for the specific reasoning and you gave it, I'm shutting up and getting out.

You ought to feel free to come back to the thread, though. Any antipathy you detected was probably due to concerns about you being an undergrad philosopher come to give us a hard time with whatever you just learnt in continental philosophy 101. The posts didn't make clear that you're a lawyer, a man of some degree of quality like us.

# ? Aug 2, 2010 22:22

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

joat mon posted:

But make sure you correctly name the job for which you are begging:

Bad cut and paste jobs is an integral part of both PD and DA work anyhow. It just shows he fits.

# ? Aug 2, 2010 23:58

Torpor: Oct 20, 2008; .. and now for my next trick, I'll pretend to be a political commentator...

HONK HONK

http://www.mainjustice.com/2010/08/02/they-work-hard-for-no-money/

Stop me if anyone's heard this one before.

some newspaper posted:

They Work Hard � For No Money

By Channing Turner | August 2, 2010 2:40 pm

Some U.S. Attorney�s offices have added �special� prosecutor positions that offer all the glamor of putting the nation�s lawbreakers behind bars � at no pay.

Belt-tightening has led some state and federal prosecutors� offices to solicit volunteer prosecutors in an attempt to bolster office resources while avoiding budget strain.

And applicants are not fresh-faced interns. Hundreds of veteran attorneys have responded to applications with no compensation attached, giving up average starting salaries from $70,000 to $100,000.

The U.S. Attorney�s office for the District of Columbia added an unpaid �legal fellowship program� to the ranks of its approximately 325-attorney staff last year. Benjamin Friedman, special counsel to U.S. Attorney Ronald Machen Jr., said the program has hired 10 to 12 fellows over its lifetime to handle low-level misdemeanor cases in the office, which manages a large caseload of local crimes.

In an interview, Friedman said the program has worked well for both the office and the volunteers.

�We get really good people� he said. �A lot of them leave paying jobs [to become fellows] because this is something they want to do � they want a career change or they want the trial experience.�

An informational flier on the office�s website says that �although uncompensated, Legal Fellows will have the opportunity to participate in the same training and trial experience as any new Assistant United States Attorney.�

Friedman said the office has a long history of tapping special assistants for misdemeanor cases and, from the office�s perspective, the fellowship program is just one more way to find help.

However, he said the office tries to deter people simply looking for an in. Former fellows cannot apply for a job in the office within six months after finishing the program.

�We didn�t want to encourage people to work here for free in the hopes of getting a permanent job if that wasn�t realistic,� Friedman said. �We didn�t want to take advantage of people who didn�t have a job.�

The legal fellowship program emulates programs popping up nationwide, he added.

The U.S. Attorney office for the Northern District of Georgia also began receiving applications for volunteer prosecutor positions last fall. In an interview, First Assistant U.S. Attorney John Horn said nearly 40 applicants have expressed interest in four new unpaid positions within the past two months.

Horn hopes to hire the first volunteers in September, but unlike many other districts, he said the unpaid positions in Atlanta have nothing to do with budget troubles. He also said he does not anticipate his volunteers performing the work of Assistant U.S. Attorneys.

�I hope to have them doing legal research and writing � working with U.S. Attorneys� he said �They would be working in a supportive role.�

Still, Horn said the advantages of taking an unpaid position pay off for those looking to make a career move as a prosecutor. When looking for a new hire, he said applicants with experience really jump out.

�From the perspective of a U.S. Attorney�s office, the fact that they�ve already done the work really gives an advantage,� he added.

Most of the jobs require a commitment of at least six months to a year.

Chief Deputy District Attorney Barry Borden told the USA Today that dozens of candidates have responded to his call for volunteers in the Marin County District Attorney�s office in California. He said he took the idea from a similar program started by U.S. Attorney for the District of Maryland Rod Rosenstein.

�Many of the applications are from newly unemployed [law firm] associates, recent graduates and even a few who are currently employed,� Rosenstein told USA Today. �People who are applying see it as a stepping stone.�

Officials said that, rather than deter applicants, the financial downturn has lead many individuals to value the work experience offered by prosecutor jobs.

�I don�t see a downside,� executive director of the National District Attorneys Association Scott Burns told USA Today. �With the economy � and the fact that many lawyers are out of work, this is an opportunity to get experience to prepare them for the next step.�

"I don�t see a downside" says the guy who isn't starving to death in the gutter. Also, they're totally not taking advantage of anybody! No way, not when the job should pay $50,000+ and the people working it are totally unpaid and there are no other jobs available. The experience is invaluable!

Now perhaps there have always been fellowships like this, but it would seem that in the current climate it's just about totally impossible to not take advantage of the unemployed.

On the other hand, if I didn't have a job I'd totally be applying for these things because, man, that experience would be great! :smith:

# ? Aug 3, 2010 01:18

entris: Oct 22, 2008; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Torpor posted:

http://www.mainjustice.com/2010/08/02/they-work-hard-for-no-money/

Stop me if anyone's heard this one before.

"I don�t see a downside" says the guy who isn't starving to death in the gutter. Also, they're totally not taking advantage of anybody! No way, not when the job should pay $50,000+ and the people working it are totally unpaid and there are no other jobs available. The experience is invaluable!

Now perhaps there have always been fellowships like this, but it would seem that in the current climate it's just about totally impossible to not take advantage of the unemployed.

On the other hand, if I didn't have a job I'd totally be applying for these things because, man, that experience would be great!

If they were forced to pay for those positions, I imagine there wouldn't be any. At least this way you can get "great experience" and something for your resume while you work weekends and nights at the local bridge sucking dick.

# ? Aug 3, 2010 01:46

GamingHyena: Jul 25, 2003; Devil's Advocate

Torpor posted:

http://www.mainjustice.com/2010/08/02/they-work-hard-for-no-money/

Stop me if anyone's heard this one before.

"I don�t see a downside" says the guy who isn't starving to death in the gutter. Also, they're totally not taking advantage of anybody! No way, not when the job should pay $50,000+ and the people working it are totally unpaid and there are no other jobs available. The experience is invaluable!

Now perhaps there have always been fellowships like this, but it would seem that in the current climate it's just about totally impossible to not take advantage of the unemployed.

On the other hand, if I didn't have a job I'd totally be applying for these things because, man, that experience would be great!

I read an article one time about the Russian prison system. It said that Russian prisoners marked their bitches with tattoos, so that even if the tattooed convicted changed prisons everyone would always know he would take it up the rear end.

This "fellowship" is the employment equivalent.

As an employer, what would you think if you saw this dingleberry of an internship on someone's resume? You'd automatically know:
1. This guy is a chump
2. who is desperate for a job
3. and values his employment prospects so little that he is literally willing to work for free on the GUARANTEE that it will not lead to gainful employment for at least six months.

Now which of these attributes is conducive to you offering him a high paying (or any paying) job? The applicant can bleat all he wants about the valuable experience he gained performing legal research and other important tasks normally reserved for secretaries and paralegals, but you'll know before he even walks through the door that you could offer him any amount of money for the shittiest job imaginable and he'd take it with a smile. Hell, he'd probably buy you the Vaseline too.

I don't care how much of a fresh fish you are to the legal profession, you don't want your resume tattooed with this "opportunity."

GamingHyena fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Aug 3, 2010

# ? Aug 3, 2010 02:06

Abugadu: Jul 12, 2004; 1st Sgt. Matthews and the men have Procured for me a cummerbund from a traveling gypsy, who screeched Victory shall come at a Terrible price. i am Honored.

It would still beat 'Reached level 80 in WoW' on the resume, which is what a disturbingly large percentage of grads are doing.

There's plenty of trust-fund kids who went to law school because their parents expected it of them that will gladly sponge for an additional year for more resume fodder.

I'm just surprised private firms didn't think of it before the US Atty's office.

# ? Aug 3, 2010 02:35

Mookie: Mar 22, 2005; I have to return some videotapes.

Abugadu posted:

I'm just surprised private firms didn't think of it before the US Atty's office.

Labor laws really frown on unpaid internships that aren't for academic credit. Although that's typically ignored in practice, there's a reason that such arrangements are kept relatively quiet.

# ? Aug 3, 2010 02:43

MaximumBob: Jan 15, 2006; You're moving who to the bullpen?

Abugadu posted:

It would still beat 'Reached level 80 in WoW' on the resume, which is what a disturbingly large percentage of grads are doing.

As someone who has both jobs and a level 80 to his name, do I want to put the level 80 above or below the jobs on my resume? And do I need to state my spec?

# ? Aug 3, 2010 03:10

joat mon: Oct 15, 2009; I am the master of my lamp;
I am the captain of my tub.

Abugadu posted:

I'm just surprised private firms didn't think of it before the US Atty's office.

If one of the AUSA's bitches screws up there's no individual client to complain/sue, and even if there was, they've got prosecutorial immunity. The worst that happens is a misdemeanant goes free after spending a few weeks in jail.

# ? Aug 3, 2010 03:11

Abugadu: Jul 12, 2004; 1st Sgt. Matthews and the men have Procured for me a cummerbund from a traveling gypsy, who screeched Victory shall come at a Terrible price. i am Honored.

joat mon posted:

If one of the AUSA's bitches screws up there's no individual client to complain/sue, and even if there was, they've got prosecutorial immunity. The worst that happens is a misdemeanant goes free after spending a few weeks in jail.

Yeah, but you could have the volunteers doing something harmless like doc review, or at least have their work looked over before being sent out the door.

# ? Aug 3, 2010 04:27

joat mon: Oct 15, 2009; I am the master of my lamp;
I am the captain of my tub.

Abugadu posted:

Yeah, but you could have the volunteers doing something harmless like doc review, or at least have their work looked over before being sent out the door.

But how would you bill them out? Can you bill the client for associate hours even if that 'associate' is unpaid? You can't not bill the work, that doesn't make any sense for the firm.
And even if the freebie lawyers could get on the firm's malpractice policy, the direct exam of the partner by the legal malpractice lawyer would be brutal.

# ? Aug 3, 2010 04:36

Abugadu: Jul 12, 2004; 1st Sgt. Matthews and the men have Procured for me a cummerbund from a traveling gypsy, who screeched Victory shall come at a Terrible price. i am Honored.

joat mon posted:

But how would you bill them out? Can you bill the client for associate hours even if that 'associate' is unpaid? You can't not bill the work, that doesn't make any sense for the firm.
And even if the freebie lawyers could get on the firm's malpractice policy, the direct exam of the partner by the legal malpractice lawyer would be brutal.

Well, it's getting to the point where you're not going to be able to bill summer associates, either. But firms that would do this wouldn't be putting them in the line of fire, anyway, if they are interested in not being sued off the planet.

I'm just thinking that the massive oversupply of attorneys here is going to lead to some ridiculous situations as far as attempts to get experience on the resume. If not 'volunteer' work, then some mutation of the doc review sweatshops.

# ? Aug 3, 2010 05:00

Leif.: Mar 27, 2005; Son of the Defender
Formerly Diplomaticus/SWATJester

MaximumBob posted:

As someone who has both jobs and a level 80 to his name, do I want to put the level 80 above or below the jobs on my resume? And do I need to state my spec?

Only state your spec if you are a Warrior, but since only Rogues and Warlocks are going to get the job it doesn't matter.

# ? Aug 3, 2010 08:06

Leif.: Mar 27, 2005; Son of the Defender
Formerly Diplomaticus/SWATJester

Also, where can I apply for that prosecutor position because I'll do that poo poo.

# ? Aug 3, 2010 08:06

joat mon: Oct 15, 2009; I am the master of my lamp;
I am the captain of my tub.

SWATJester posted:

Also, where can I apply for that prosecutor position because I'll do that poo poo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX3ePAOUK7U#t=4m18s

She was applying for a mid-level position; I'm sure she applied at the DA's too. They're really hurting for mid-level attorneys. They've usually got enough newbies, though. They start at 38,500. If you really want the info, I'll PM you.

joat mon fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Aug 3, 2010

# ? Aug 3, 2010 15:57

Phil Moscowitz: Feb 19, 2007; If blood be the price of admiralty,
Lord God, we ha' paid in full!

joat mon posted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX3ePAOUK7U#t=4m18s

She was applying for a mid-level position; I'm sure she applied at the DA's too. They're really hurting for mid-level attorneys. They've usually got enough newbies, though. They start at 38,500. If you really want the info, I'll PM you.

Excuse me, can I go to the bathroom first?

...

Thank you

# ? Aug 3, 2010 17:12

JudicialRestraints: Oct 26, 2007; Are you a LAWYER? Because I'll have you know I got GOOD GRADES in LAW SCHOOL last semester. Don't even try to argue THE LAW with me.

If I accidentally wrote down the wrong name for my law school in all my application documents for OCI, do you guys think it will hurt me?

# ? Aug 3, 2010 17:29

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

JudicialRestraints posted:

If I accidentally wrote down the wrong name for my law school in all my application documents for OCI, do you guys think it will hurt me?

Depends on the school you wrote down.

# ? Aug 3, 2010 17:34

JudicialRestraints: Oct 26, 2007; Are you a LAWYER? Because I'll have you know I got GOOD GRADES in LAW SCHOOL last semester. Don't even try to argue THE LAW with me.

nm posted:

Depends on the school you wrote down.

I mis-spelled Wisconsin Law as "Stanford"

Will that be a big deal?

# ? Aug 3, 2010 17:37

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

JudicialRestraints posted:

I mis-spelled Wisconsin Law as "Stanford"

Will that be a big deal?

Just explain that UW is the Stanford of the Upper Midwest and if they were truly from the upper midwest, they'd know that is what you meant.
(UM in the Yale)

# ? Aug 3, 2010 18:06

billion dollar bitch: Jul 20, 2005; To drink and fight.
To fuck all night.

I just found out that my email hadn't forwarded properly and that I was accepted to the Journal of Law and Social Problems after all, instead of just being in at the Journal of Asian Law. Oh well. All non LR journals are the same right?

Oh, and also they sent out the Law Review list at some point apparently. Not only did I not get on, I had only even heard of about seven of forty people who were accepted - the rest were completely unknown, "do these people even go here" names :negative:

# ? Aug 3, 2010 19:40

JudicialRestraints: Oct 26, 2007; Are you a LAWYER? Because I'll have you know I got GOOD GRADES in LAW SCHOOL last semester. Don't even try to argue THE LAW with me.

billion dollar bitch posted:

I just found out that my email hadn't forwarded properly and that I was accepted to the Journal of Law and Social Problems after all, instead of just being in at the Journal of Asian Law. Oh well. All non LR journals are the same right?

Oh, and also they sent out the Law Review list at some point apparently. Not only did I not get on, I had only even heard of about seven of forty people who were accepted - the rest were completely unknown, "do these people even go here" names

You have more interviews than I have bids. Count your blessings.

# ? Aug 3, 2010 19:47

billion dollar bitch: Jul 20, 2005; To drink and fight.
To fuck all night.

I don't know - maybe I could've been smarter by osmosis had I hung out with different people. But seriously, I had only even *talked* to two of them - the other five I kinda knew of/could recognize on sight.

# ? Aug 3, 2010 21:43

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

billion dollar bitch posted:

I just found out that my email hadn't forwarded properly and that I was accepted to the Journal of Law and Social Problems after all

oops that's my joural sorry :smith:

# ? Aug 3, 2010 21:47

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

VA dues time, and I decided to let my active membership lapse, as it's not worth it to me right now to pay for CLE.

Hope it's not that difficult to go back to active if/when I ever want to practice. I spoke to the Bar people and they said I'd just owe the CLE from this year plus the year I go back to active.

# ? Aug 3, 2010 21:55

builds character: Jan 16, 2008; Keep at it.

evilweasel posted:

oops that's my joural sorry

Please make frequent 99 problems jokes.

# ? Aug 3, 2010 23:35

Defenestration: Aug 10, 2006; "It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"; Grimey Drawer

UC publishes the journal Social Problems

maybe you can use this with the misspelling idea and get people to think you're at Berkeley

# ? Aug 3, 2010 23:48

Sulecrist: Apr 5, 2007; Better tear off this bar association logo.

I've been mostly avoiding you guys this summer but I'm moving down to Durham in three days.

HR and I are going to play board games and drink black cherry Fresca and then die separately, alone.

# ? Aug 4, 2010 00:16

Abugadu: Jul 12, 2004; 1st Sgt. Matthews and the men have Procured for me a cummerbund from a traveling gypsy, who screeched Victory shall come at a Terrible price. i am Honored.

Baruch Obamawitz posted:

VA dues time, and I decided to let my active membership lapse, as it's not worth it to me right now to pay for CLE.

Hope it's not that difficult to go back to active if/when I ever want to practice. I spoke to the Bar people and they said I'd just owe the CLE from this year plus the year I go back to active.

I'm inactive in two jurisdictions now, more because I didn't want to pay active membership fees than because of any CLE stuff. It's such a stupid sunk cost, because I'm not planning to practice in either of the two, but "you never know", and I wouldn't want to pay/take the bar again.

# ? Aug 4, 2010 00:37

Lykourgos: Feb 17, 2010; by T. Finn

I'm getting these weird dreams where I only get half my bar score back, thereby creating a cliff-hanger situation wherein I must score high on the remaining half in order to pass. Only, when the other half comes in, the original half disappears and I am left waiting for it again. For example: I get the MEE back, and I get a 120 or something, but the MBE is delayed; then the MBE comes back and I get a good score and therefore pass the bar, but what's this, the MEE is gone and I have to wait for the real score to be announced, because apparently the 120 was just in my imagination.

After a while of this back and forth, with a few clincher moments when I'm passing or failing within a point or two, I wake up confused as to what is going on with the bar.

What is the appropriate equitable remedy in this situation?

# ? Aug 4, 2010 00:48

Ainsley McTree: Feb 19, 2004

I had a dream after the bar where I was sitting in a class room while someone sat at the teacher's desk, grading the exams. She got to mine and flipped through it and looked at the blank pages at the end and gave me this look like "really? Ok, well, we'll see"

# ? Aug 4, 2010 00:51

Abugadu: Jul 12, 2004; 1st Sgt. Matthews and the men have Procured for me a cummerbund from a traveling gypsy, who screeched Victory shall come at a Terrible price. i am Honored.

Lykourgos posted:

I'm getting these weird dreams where I only get half my bar score back, thereby creating a cliff-hanger situation wherein I must score high on the remaining half in order to pass. Only, when the other half comes in, the original half disappears and I am left waiting for it again. For example: I get the MEE back, and I get a 120 or something, but the MBE is delayed; then the MBE comes back and I get a good score and therefore pass the bar, but what's this, the MEE is gone and I have to wait for the real score to be announced, because apparently the 120 was just in my imagination.

After a while of this back and forth, with a few clincher moments when I'm passing or failing within a point or two, I wake up confused as to what is going on with the bar.

What is the appropriate equitable remedy in this situation?

# ? Aug 4, 2010 01:24

lipstick thespian: Sep 20, 2005; by Ozmaugh

I had a dream that I was back in grade school and they were about to give me a torts final in japanese. I felt incredibly stressed when I woke up.

# ? Aug 4, 2010 01:26

Daico: Aug 17, 2006

First semester and part of the second, I had recurring dreams that I was enrolled in a math class that I'd completely forgotten about and was failing.

That was a new and unsettling addition to my dreams.

# ? Aug 4, 2010 01:41

quepasa18: Oct 13, 2005

Abugadu posted:

I'm inactive in two jurisdictions now, more because I didn't want to pay active membership fees than because of any CLE stuff. It's such a stupid sunk cost, because I'm not planning to practice in either of the two, but "you never know", and I wouldn't want to pay/take the bar again.

I was licenced in WI and MN, but I just withdrew from MN altogether. I don't practice anymore, and they make you do CLEs even if you're inactive. It just wasn't worth it anymore now that I don't have a firm paying my dues. I considered going inactive in WI too, but am going to stay active for now. I figure you never know when you might need to do something.

# ? Aug 4, 2010 02:01

CmdrSmirnoff: Oct 27, 2005; happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy

Daico posted:

First semester and part of the second, I had recurring dreams that I was enrolled in a math class that I'd completely forgotten about and was failing.

That was a new and unsettling addition to my dreams.

The "scheduled for a final in a class I never knew I took" has been a staple of my dreams for at least a decade.

# ? Aug 4, 2010 02:07

Lykourgos: Feb 17, 2010; by T. Finn

CmdrSmirnoff posted:

The "scheduled for a final in a class I never knew I took" has been a staple of my dreams for at least a decade.

you know I always used to get that one, usually right around the end of semester. I'd be wandering around having fun, and then I'd have a sense that I had signed up for a mysterious class that I simply forgot about for the last 3 or so months. Also, I needed to pass the class or something terrible would happen.

Haven't had any dreams remotely like that, or even school related at all, in a while though. 3L was not exactly intense, to say the least, and right now I am well on my way to forgetting academia entirely.

# ? Aug 4, 2010 02:12

Adar: Jul 27, 2001

I graduated high school while having failed a class my senior year (I was a giant slacker but had more credits than I needed.)

All through law school up until around two years ago, my recurring dream was that I got my LS diploma but it wouldn't be valid unless 22-28 year old me went back to senior year physics.

...in most of those dreams, I was still failing physics and would probably have to repeat it again.

(I still can't do physics)

# ? Aug 4, 2010 02:18

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# ? May 15, 2024 04:17

Linguica: Jul 13, 2000; You're already dead

I did fine in high school and not long ago I had a recurring dream that for some reason my high school diploma ended up being invalid and I had to go back but forgot that I had enrolled in a certain class so I had a final I hadn't studied for and also I had forgotten everything about the French language so I was gonna fail that class too

basically the school ur-nightmare

# ? Aug 4, 2010 02:55

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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