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I've realised that any computer at work I could probably hook it up to probably isnt fast enough (HDD and CPU) to handle the uncompressed images, but maybe I'll give it a go just in case. Either that or we'll start using them in the TV studio rather than the older cameras down there. Ta.
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Aug 12, 2010 17:42
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A lot of cameras have outputs that feed a signal pre-encode. I work a lot with external recorders like the AJA KiPro, which can be pricey (but rent cheap), but are a lot more functional to shoot with than being tethered to a computer. For example, I'm able to take an older tape-based Varicam and feed its HD-SDI signal into a KiPro. The KiPro is limited to Apple's ProRes codec for now, however using that, I'm able to capture a full raster 10-bit 1920x1080 image, versus 1440x1080 or 960x720 and an older 8-bit codec like DVCProHD. Not exactly the same situation as with a Sony HDV camera, but the same basic concept.
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Aug 12, 2010 19:43
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So, thanks to this thread, I got the EOS 550D tonight. Haven't had much time to play with it, but man, these images are gorgeous. Can't wait until I have some daylight tomorrow and can go wild with my 50mm...
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Aug 14, 2010 06:55
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What are people's experiences with uprezzing SD? I've got a super low budget feature shoot coming up and the director, cam op, and myself are trying to figure out our best camera option. Right now we're looking at a 5D, an HVX, and a DVX100 w/ a 35mm adapter. Currently I'm leaning towards the DVX since I think they're fantastic cameras and we already have two of them available for free, so we would just have the cost of the adapter and lenses. We're shying away from the 5D right now because we want a pretty large depth of field, and don't want to deal with rolling shutter since there will be a lot of action shots. I know It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia is shot on a DVX and uprezzed to HD, although I'm sure that spikes the cost of post up a good amount to have it done professionally.
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Aug 14, 2010 19:16
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Rogetz posted:I know It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia is shot on a DVX and uprezzed to HD, although I'm sure that spikes the cost of post up a good amount to have it done professionally. If you're going to shoot SD just stay SD. butterypancakes fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Aug 14, 2010 |
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Aug 14, 2010 21:52
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You could get the HVX, borrow the free DVXs and use the HVX for your principal photography w/ the DVX pulling secondary shot duty, but really if you're used to the DVX then the HVX is a great camera that's already familiar.
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Aug 14, 2010 22:19
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The DVX and the HVX are practically the same as far as the menus and features go. The obvious difference is that the HVX goes HD. If you're able to get 35mm adapters for the DVX or the HVX, there isn't going to be a price different between the two as far as adapters go, so why not go HD? If there is a major cost issue between the production going with the HVX and the DVX, then go SD and stay SD, as has been mentioned. The HVX has been a relatively affordable HD solution from a rental standpoint for four years now, though, so go with that if you can.
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Aug 15, 2010 01:45
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I hate to be "that guy" and ask, but has anyone heard anything about release dates for the 5d mark iii? My missus is suddenly interested in getting a DSLR, and it would be nice to have a cam to balance out my HVX's weakspots, plus something easier to travel with, but everyone's pointing at the MKIII supposedly coming soon (with MKII out of stock almost everywhere) so it seems like the better idea to wait for it, although I'm not sure just how long.
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Aug 15, 2010 17:32
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infiniteseal posted:everyone's pointing at the MKIII supposedly coming soon Just doing a few quick searches, everyone says not until 2011. If you want a dSLR and cannot wait that long, you could consider getting into a Digital Rebel, build a small supply of decent lenses, and then upgrade when the 5D mk3 finally comes out?
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Aug 15, 2010 20:56
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Yeah I'm sort of debating that angle, the T2i video quality is not that much less than the 5DmkII and it's only $900 w/ a lens. It'd be fine for what I'm doing since I already have an HVX and I'm just looking for something smaller for traveling and to be able to get shallow DoF that clients want that's such a pain w/ the HVX. So it's not REALLY like I'd need the 5d, at least the MkII, aside from the growing number of misinformed but money-laden idiots who demand a DP w/ 5d without any idea of what they want other than "that popular camera everyone's using"
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Aug 16, 2010 21:31
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infiniteseal posted:to be able to get shallow DoF that clients want that's such a pain w/ the HVX. Remember the T2i and Digital Rebels all have a acquisition plane size smaller than 35mm (approximately 62.5% the size of the 5D, 1D mk4, etc). That means your lenses are 1.6x longer than whatever you're expecting (50mm becomes an 80mm, etc). Most importantly, your DoF gets longer due to a smaller image plane. At 62.5% smaller than 35mm, you're getting more DoF than Super 16mm, but less than standard 35mm. So, you'll get shallow DoF, but maybe not as shallow as you'd hope. Everyone wants the 5D mostly because of popularity, but remember that rise to popularity is founded in the simple facts: it has a 35mm size acquisition plane and shoots 1080p at 24fps. A friend of mine bought a T1i, but then quickly ditched it for a 7D. I assume the 5D/7D/1D line have some features that the T1i/T2i just don't have.
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Aug 16, 2010 23:51
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Video quality seems to be comparable between the T2i and the 7D, but the 5D passes them both. The fact is that most clients who are asking for the 5D don't REALLY know the difference, they're asking because they want shallow depth of field and have heard enough times that it's harder for camcorders to get shallow DoF than it is for the 5D. That doesn't mean the 5D (or similar thereof) don't have their purpose, but I've learned pretty early on that when people are asking for a specific camera for their shoot, it's because they're just going off of what they've heard. If the substance of the shoot was more important, they'd be asking for a more experienced DP and not so much demanding a particular camera that excels at a couple of shots while making the rest more difficult. The reason I'm willing to hold off and wait for the mk III is so they can fix the major issues w/ the firmware & audio acquisition
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Aug 17, 2010 01:15
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Tiresias posted:
Why? they're basically the same. except the T2i is $900 cheaper. It even has more menu features than the 7D. I listed the minor differences a page or two back. As a filmmaker all you are buying with a 7D is a name people recognize. EDIT: Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the depth of field will look the same on a T2i/7D and a 5D. If there were a difference, there wouldn't be a crop factor because the lenses would be calibrated to the 7D/T2i's smaller sensor size. Double edit: yeah, they have the same DOF. Peep dis.  The circles represent the image coming through the lens, which for a standard 35mm type lens is always the same size. The rectangles are the sensor sizes, the APS-C sensor is picking up less image, but will still have the same DOF. (the 50mm and 80mm markings are showing crop factor) just for fun, have this sensor image chart too. I don't know why I find this interesting.  I find it in interesting that the APS-C sensors and the RED sensors are almost the same physical size. but there is no crop factor on the RED, right? so how is it different? focus plane? SquareDog fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Aug 17, 2010 |
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Aug 17, 2010 04:27
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SquareDog posted:Double edit: yeah, they have the same DOF. Those graphics just show the relative acquisition area of the image projected onto the sensor area. DoF is a function of the Circle of Confusion, which is dictated by the acquisition plane's total surface area. I think the crop factor plays back into it when you get an image shot with an 50mm lens that has the actual focal length of the 80mm. The DoF matches that of the 50mm, but not the 80mm, hence why you get more DoF (more than you normally would with an 80mm at same aperture). This site explains it fairly well: http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/technical/digitaldof.html
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Aug 17, 2010 08:01
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Tiresias posted:Those graphics just show the relative acquisition area of the image projected onto the sensor area. DoF is a function of the Circle of Confusion, which is dictated by the acquisition plane's total surface area. My point was assuming that you're using the same lens for both cameras and the field of view doesn't need to be the same, which is an important detail for me to leave out and a flaw in my reasoning considering that you WOULD want the field of view to be the same. Great article, hurts my brain to read it. 
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Aug 17, 2010 09:40
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personally I am not a fan of full frame sensor size since everyone always shoots wide open and it makes focus very frustrating. don't get confused by focal length conversions. All focal lengths are always the same regardless of the format. The different is the size of the film/sensor (window) Bigger window, wider picture. Focal length simply changes how big things are outside that window. A 25mm 16mm bolex lens is the same as a 25mm ziess master prime, difference is the bolex won't cover the full area, but it's still the same fov, just obscured DOF is always the same for a focal length (focal distance IE focus effects it greatly)
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Aug 17, 2010 16:26
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SquareDog posted:Why? they're basically the same. except the T2i is $900 cheaper. It even has more menu features than the 7D. I listed the minor differences a page or two back. As a filmmaker all you are buying with a 7D is a name people recognize. This is it for me - I can get what I want personally with my camera now, I'd love a video DSLR for traveling so I don't have to bring my big fuckoff case with me through the airport every time or worry about whether or not the stewardess is gonna give me poo poo for trying to get it into the overhead compartment, but the flipside is that a number of clients (most of them in my world) don't know the difference. They don't understand that a 7D is a T2i and that the frame difference between those and a 5D are ultimately going to be negligible with a decent DP (depending on their project of course, but most of them are music videos, short films, the like). What they are paying for is the NAME, and that's what you have to provide. Which is the stupid bit but also the business bit. While I could be shooting roughly the same thing on either a t2i or a 5d, and have them come out looking remarkably the same (completely? no. but for the client? they wouldnt know the difference), the fact is that I'd be getting somewhere around 400% more people calling for the 5d than they would the t2i.
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Aug 17, 2010 17:27
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Mozzie posted:DOF is always the same for a focal length (focal distance IE focus effects it greatly) Simply not true. The formula used to calculate DoF uses not only the focal length of the lens, but the Circle of Confusion, distance to the subject and f/stop. For the brainiacs (from that article I linked):  F is the focal length. D is the subject distance, c is the circle of confusion and fn is the f# (f-stop) of the lens. For the cheap seats: 
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Aug 17, 2010 19:19
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With the new popularity of DSLR video, I've been looking at used HVX's on Craigslist. They're running around $3k with P2 cards. My question is, other than the codec and maybe workflow, are there any advantages to the HVX200 vs. the HMC150? I shoot mostly event videography (I do some greenscreen work here and there), so while I like the idea of shooting and editing DVCPRO, how many GB of P2 media would I need to be able to shoot 4 hours of footage without offloading the footage onto a drive? edit: and how does low-light performance compare between the two cameras? 1st AD fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Aug 17, 2010 |
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Aug 17, 2010 21:03
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Tiresias posted:Simply not true. The formula used to calculate DoF uses not only the focal length of the lens, but the Circle of Confusion, distance to the subject and f/stop. yes if you want to get into the details but that's not what I am talking about. optically a 25mm lens has the same DOF for a given focal distance as any other 25mm lens. No exceptions. Of course resolution, f stop effect beyond that.
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Aug 17, 2010 21:47
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1st AD posted:With the new popularity of DSLR video, I've been looking at used HVX's on Craigslist. They're running around $3k with P2 cards. My question is, other than the codec and maybe workflow, are there any advantages to the HVX200 vs. the HMC150? I shoot mostly event videography (I do some greenscreen work here and there), so while I like the idea of shooting and editing DVCPRO, how many GB of P2 media would I need to be able to shoot 4 hours of footage without offloading the footage onto a drive? I've got an HVX and I can shoot 4 hours of 720P 30PN to four 32GB P2 cards., so normally about 1/2GB a minute (one hour for each P2 card, however since the HVX can take two cards at once, you only need two cards of equal size, as one will finish offloading before the next one starts, and you can just throw it back in the camera) I bought one 32GB P2 card for about $500/shipped, or you could get 2 16GB cards and that would go just fine, you'd just be offloading more often However, if you shoot 720P 30P (not the PN, which is 30fps natively, 30P is /60 as it is in tape cameras) or 1080i, then you'd get about 1GB/minute. The image quality of 1080 is much better, but for four hours of footage you're looking at 8 32GB P2 cards' worth of data. I love the camera for being able to deliver 720P in the PN format, cos one 32GB card handles most of the events I shoot. But when they want 1080i, it becomes a much bigger PITA since I don't have a matching card. EDIT: That said, you can get by on just about anything, so long as you have a good data tech to help you offload. I shot a wedding & reception on three 4GB P2 cards a few years back, we ended up with one 3-hour long shot as I never stopped recording, just kept swapping out the P2 cards as they filled, and a good tech who was there with the empty one in hand. bassguitarhero fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Aug 17, 2010 |
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Aug 17, 2010 21:57
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Mozzie posted:yes if you want to get into the details but that's not what I am talking about. Yes, a 25mm lens is a 25mm lens is a 25mm lens, regardless of any other factors. However, lenses do not have DoF. DoF is a characteristic created at the moment of acquisition, be it on a digital sensor only 1/3" in size, 35mm film plane or IMAX. Lenses themselves do not have DoF. Lenses have focal length (which dictate angle of view) and aperture. That is all. How much do you see, and how much light gets through. Other traits come into play (distortion, chromatic aberration, etc), but those have nothing to do with DoF.
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Aug 18, 2010 04:09
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Nope. While practical DoF comes into play from the CoC, resolution, etc. Mathematically the light converges exactly the same regardless of sensor size through a given focal length. What I am saying is a 25mm lens with behave exactly the same, with the same optical dof whether it's on a full frame sensor, APSC, 35mm film gate, 16mm, super8 etc. edit: first half of this video when he changes from 4k to 2k demonstrates the point pretty clearly. http://blog.abelcine.com/2010/05/14/a-lens-is-a-lens-is-a-lens/ Mozzie fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Aug 18, 2010 |
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Aug 18, 2010 04:23
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1st AD posted:With the new popularity of DSLR video, I've been looking at used HVX's on Craigslist. They're running around $3k with P2 cards. My question is, other than the codec and maybe workflow, are there any advantages to the HVX200 vs. the HMC150? I shoot mostly event videography (I do some greenscreen work here and there), so while I like the idea of shooting and editing DVCPRO, how many GB of P2 media would I need to be able to shoot 4 hours of footage without offloading the footage onto a drive? A friend of mine owns an HMC 150, and I was thoroughly impressed with the performance. Shoots hours and hours onto SD cards, and with the size of SD cards and low cost (especially compared to P2 cards), I'd personally go with that. We shot a concert with it, and the low light performance was pretty good. P2 cards, while fast to offload, are now based on a legacy technology. You can buy an SD card reader or two, plus a bunch 8GB SD cards for less than what you'd pay for a single 16GB P2 card. Also, you need a laptop with a PC Card reader or an expansion PC Card reader (I bought one a while back, cost me $75, was USB2). From quick research: 16GB SD Card costing $35-50 can record 90 minutes of footage at 1080p high quality 30fps or 24fps. 16GB P2 card costing ~$400 can record 40 minutes of footage at 1080p native 24fps.
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Aug 18, 2010 04:27
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Mozzie posted:Nope. While practical DoF comes into play from the CoC, resolution, etc. Mathematically the light converges exactly the same regardless of sensor size through a given focal length. What is "practical DoF" or "optical depth of field"? Depth of Field is one thing and describes only one thing. Yes, light converges exactly the same for all lenses of XX focal length, given they're all spherical. All 25mm lenses converge the same image, be it onto a 35mm frame or whatever. However, you keep describing it as "depth of field" when DoF describes only one thing. The acquisition plane's CoC, as in the ability to determine if that convergence was acceptably sharp to appear as a single point or as a blurry circle, is what determines what was in focus or not in focus at the moment of acquisition, i.e.- what was within the "field". That field has a length, which is the "depth of field". If the depth of field was just determined by the acquisition plane's ability to determine if convergence was acceptably sharp or not, how does that have anything to do with the 25mm lens' projection, since we agreed a 25mm lens is a 25mm lens is a 25mm lens? If the acquisition plane is significantly larger, then it will be less tolerant of imprecise convergence. If the plane is smaller, than it is more tolerant of imprecise convergence. That is depth of field. If you're trying to describe another characteristic of the lens, please describe it or say what it is. EDIT: first half of this video when he changes from 4k to 2k demonstrates the point pretty clearly. http://blog.abelcine.com/2010/05/14/a-lens-is-a-lens-is-a-lens/ Actually, the first half demonstrates my point, since he snaps to 2K, and the RED only uses the center 1/4 of it's sensor to acquire the image, the depth of field changes to be larger. Smaller acquisition area, smaller circle of confusion, more tolerance for imprecise convergence. This is illustrated by when he matches the focal distance to the mannequins at 2:25 and the focus chart in the background is than at 4k with matching frames. Tiresias fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Aug 18, 2010 |
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Aug 18, 2010 04:42
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I saw this http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6823505/ as an extreme case of DSLR film making argument. I'm not sure how this actually unfolds in the real world, but I got a chuckle from it anyway.
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Aug 18, 2010 04:44
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Ok, got another one. We've decided to go HD, using the 5D as the second camera. Now the question regarding the primary camera comes down to buying an HVX200, or renting a Z1U or Z5U from the local public access station. We're going with that particular option because I have a membership and thus can get rental discounts and some days free. My question then is, what are the major differences between the Z1 and the Z5? The person I talked to at the station didn't seem to know much other than "the Z5 is a newer model." I'm inclined to go with the Z1U because it's cheaper by a good margin, however I've read that it can't shoot in 24p, and that the best bet is to shoot 60i and do a pulldown in post. I'm not sure yet if the plan is to strike a film print, but the fact that we can't get 24 frames natively makes me nervous.
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Aug 19, 2010 00:45
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If you want 24P, the HVX shoots 24PN, which is a native 24 fps, no pulldown. On top of that, if you're shooting 24PN, then you can put the camera in film mode and shoot 60fps to get a 2.5x slomo that you can play back in-camera if you're doing any of that kinda stuff. Negative is that there's no output via firewire (You'd have to capture over the component out) but otherwise it's great for shooting out in the field, it's the lowest space usage of all the HD formats.
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Aug 19, 2010 01:00
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infiniteseal posted:Negative is that there's no output via firewire (You'd have to capture over the component out) Transfer the P2 via firewire.
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Aug 19, 2010 01:17
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butterypancakes posted:Transfer the P2 via firewire. Yeah you can transfer the P2 over firewire, I just mean you can't capture live from the firewire output like you can if you're shooting 24P. It's not a problem most of the time, but for example when I was doing a doc overseas we had a firestore, which requires the camera be in 24P. We only had 2 4GB cards so I'd have to switch back to 24PN if I wanted to shoot onto the cards and still get decent space.
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Aug 19, 2010 02:21
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infiniteseal posted:Yeah you can transfer the P2 over firewire, I just mean you can't capture live from the firewire output like you can if you're shooting 24P. It's not a problem most of the time, but for example when I was doing a doc overseas we had a firestore, which requires the camera be in 24P. We only had 2 4GB cards so I'd have to switch back to 24PN if I wanted to shoot onto the cards and still get decent space. The Firestore can take the 24P signal from the HVX and do its own 24pn conversion on the fly as well. That does require a Firestore or other device capable of doing that though. The footage does cut seamlessly with 24pn footage shot on P2 cards or even tape-based 720p60/24 that has gone through something like duplicate frame removal in Final Cut.
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Aug 19, 2010 04:49
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LMAO I just got out of the worst, most unproductive client meeting ever. This guy wanted to produce a live streaming talk show with pro lighting and sound, multiple cameras, etc. His offer? $200 per show. Even if I had all the equipment needed and could rig all the lighting without turning my small studio into a furnace, $200 is a loving joke for producing a poor man's version of The View. "Buh-buh-buh these OTHER guys were able to do what we wanted, well except that we don't work with any of them anymore because no one can deliver what we want on this budget!"
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Aug 26, 2010 08:14
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Welcome to the business.
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Aug 26, 2010 08:26
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mobot posted:The Firestore can take the 24P signal from the HVX and do its own 24pn conversion on the fly as well. That does require a Firestore or other device capable of doing that though. The footage does cut seamlessly with 24pn footage shot on P2 cards or even tape-based 720p60/24 that has gone through something like duplicate frame removal in Final Cut. Yeah exactly, but if you're trying to shoot onto P2 cards at the same time, then you have to use the full 24/60 or 30/60 frame rate so that the firewire stays active. If you're shooting 720P 24PN or 30PN tp P2, no signal is sent out through firewire, so there's no way to do a live capture unless it's through the signal out.
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Aug 26, 2010 17:17
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But why would you shoot to the P2 cards and something else at the same time?
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Aug 26, 2010 21:31
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butterypancakes posted:But why would you shoot to the P2 cards and something else at the same time? Our mutual friend at his legal video business does that to get extra backup copies live.
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Aug 27, 2010 03:01
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He outputs firewire? I'm just saying, that whole line of questions was a bunch of stuff that almost no body deals with.
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Aug 27, 2010 05:48
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It's a pretty rare situation but it comes up. But if I'm doing a live capture I generally prefer to do a P2 or some other capture at the same time for backup. I did a music video shoot w/ a Z1U and they were running HDMI out into a mac pro and a RAID setup, one of the drives went in the middle of the shoot but thankfully we'd shot everything to tape as well. If nothing else, saving to P2 while live capturing gives me piece of mind until the capture is finished. If it finishes fine and loads up, then I can clear the shot off the card, but I had another time I couldn't run to P2 and someone had set the "abort on dropped frames" option in FCP to ON so and when it aborted the capture, I lost the whole first third of the session.
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Aug 27, 2010 07:00
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infiniteseal posted:Yeah exactly, but if you're trying to shoot onto P2 cards at the same time, then you have to use the full 24/60 or 30/60 frame rate so that the firewire stays active. If you're shooting 720P 24PN or 30PN tp P2, no signal is sent out through firewire, so there's no way to do a live capture unless it's through the signal out. Sorry, didn't realize you were running to P2 at the same time - that would definitely be an issue. It's unfortunate that the HVX and similar cameras are limited in that regard because it is ALWAYS a good idea to have a backup copy rolling for important shoots where you just can't do another take, or any bigger shoot where you can afford it, really. I just recently a did a shoot with a Sony EX3 recording externally to a KiPro box via SDI as our editor wanted ProRes files ready to go. In this case we were also able to roll Sony SxS cards simultaneously and with a little media management on set, had both copies at the end of the day for the editor to choose from because hey, hard drives aren't that expensive. Of course we were shooting 29.97, so there was no issue as we could send that signal via SDI and record native to the SxS cards.
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Aug 28, 2010 03:21
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A friend of mine gave me a boom pole, but I can't figure out what the hell is up with the top of it. It's not the typical kind of microphone stand top. He doesn't know anything about boom poles, so I can't ask him. Hopefully someone here knows what I'm supposed to buy to be able to affix a shotgun shock mount to it:
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