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GregNorc posted:Do 1Ls typically intern, or do you wait until summer after 2L? 1Ls should do something related to law, usually working for the government (DA's office, judicial intern) or a nonprofit. 1L summer work is typically unpaid and it very rarely leads to postgraduate jobs. 2Ls are supposed to pursue summer employment that will then turn into offers for full-time jobs upon graduation, although this model has suffered a lot due to the recession.
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Aug 17, 2010 00:51
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evilweasel posted:Just got an offer woot
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Aug 17, 2010 00:53
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GregNorc posted:Do 1Ls typically intern, or do you wait until summer after 2L? I knew a few (unemployed) 1Ls who didn't intern during their 1L year, and a whole lot of them that interned for free. I myself interned for free during 1L, and it led to my 2L job, which led to my job offer upon graduation, and it was also my first experience with law. I would suggest doing it just for the experience; it helps you realise that law is no longer part of the law school curriculum (if it ever was). Lykourgos fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Aug 17, 2010 |
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Aug 17, 2010 00:53
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Do NOT wait for 2L summer to do something, anything, related to law. You will be screwed, especially in this economic climate.
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Aug 17, 2010 00:55
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Lykourgos posted:I knew a few (unemployed) 1Ls who didn't intern during their 1L year, and a whole lot of them that interned for free. I myself interned for free during 1L, and it led to my 2L job and was also my first experience with law. I would suggest doing it just for the experience; it helps you realise that law is no longer part of the law school curriculum (if it ever was). Sort of like how CS doesn't teach you to program, right?
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Aug 17, 2010 00:56
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GregNorc posted:Sort of like how CS doesn't teach you to program, right? dunno, never done cs. I think it's the unanimous opinion of this thread that law school classes generally have very little to do with the actual practice of law, though. Also that law school is overpriced crap, and a bunch of other, negative things.
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Aug 17, 2010 01:05
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GregNorc posted:Sort of like how CS doesn't teach you to program, right? What kind of bullshit CS department wouldn't teach you to program?
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Aug 17, 2010 01:19
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_areaman posted:What kind of bullshit CS department wouldn't teach you to program? MIT. Berkley. CMU. I guess what I should say is, you're learning the theory of computation. Not the nitty gritty "this is how you make websites in ruby". And in law school, it's the same. You learn the foundations, you don't memorize statues and stuff - that's what the bar exam is for.
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Aug 17, 2010 01:23
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GregNorc posted:MIT. Berkley. CMU. Yeah but once you learn one language and general programming concepts you know all of them more/less. I seriously doubt that MIT doesn't have programming classes, as I did a google and found all this in five seconds http://student.mit.edu/catalog/m6a.html
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Aug 17, 2010 01:44
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GregNorc posted:MIT. Berkley. CMU. As a CS major and law school grad, I can testify to the accuracy of this statement. Any CS department worth their salt will delve deeply into the mathematical underpinnings of computation; you're asked to program only enough to show that you understand the theory. They also assume that you will be programming for fun in your spare time anyway, or you wouldn't be there in the first place. Which works out, because all the great CS students write programs all the time, just for shits and giggles, while the losers like me who just do homework assignments end up taking the LSAT and going to law school. That said, I kicked rear end in autonoma theory class. Which was just essentially mind-gently caress Set Theory class crossbred with Logic. It was cool. And the prof was the spitting image of the crazy-professor stereotype.
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Aug 17, 2010 01:58
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Lykourgos posted:dunno, never done cs. I think it's the unanimous opinion of this thread that law school classes generally have very little to do with the actual practice of law, though. Also that law school is overpriced crap, and a bunch of other, negative things. hahaha what up cancerboy with a regdate of today
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Aug 17, 2010 02:01
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pnumoman posted:As a CS major and law school grad, I can testify to the accuracy of this statement. Any CS department worth their salt will delve deeply into the mathematical underpinnings of computation; you're asked to program only enough to show that you understand the theory. They also assume that you will be programming for fun in your spare time anyway, or you wouldn't be there in the first place. Which works out, because all the great CS students write programs all the time, just for shits and giggles, while the losers like me who just do homework assignments end up taking the LSAT and going to law school. Yeah but it's not like you graduate with a CS degree and your first employer has to teach you how to code. The impression I get from law school is there's a lot of hand holding by your first employer, while it would be rather embarrassing to start as a software engineer with no ability to program.
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Aug 17, 2010 02:06
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_areaman posted:Yeah but once you learn one language and general programming concepts you know all of them more/less. I seriously doubt that MIT doesn't have programming classes, as I did a google and found all this in five seconds http://student.mit.edu/catalog/m6a.html You're not getting it. There are no "This is how you program in Java/C++/C#/Ruby/Python/etc" classes for CS majors, unless it's a 101 intro to the major class, for exactly the reasons you listed above. HOWEVER, the mathematical underpinnings of programming and computational theory are incredibly difficult to grasp. The theory you learn will be applicable to pretty much any programming language, and it's up to you to implement the theory you learn in class to specific languages you're interested in. Therefore, most pure CS classes are highly theoretical, at least in colleges with a decent CS program.
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Aug 17, 2010 02:09
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Phil Moscowitz posted:hahaha what up cancerboy with a regdate of today go post in LF and I'll tell you all about it there
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Aug 17, 2010 02:09
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I don't post in retarded forums for assholes
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Aug 17, 2010 02:11
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pnumoman posted:You're not getting it. There are no "This is how you program in Java/C++/C#/Ruby/Python/etc" classes for CS majors, unless it's a 101 intro to the major class, for exactly the reasons you listed above. Dude I get it I graduated from one of those highly ranked programs and make my living as a software engineer. Almost all of my courses were theoretical but I certainly learned "how to program" over the course of my degree, saying I taught myself or something would be nonsense.
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Aug 17, 2010 02:14
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pnumoman posted:You're not getting it. There are no "This is how you program in Java/C++/C#/Ruby/Python/etc" classes for CS majors, unless it's a 101 intro to the major class, for exactly the reasons you listed above. I learned this, to my detriment, early on in my undergrad career. "Hey, I used to dabble a bit in Basic, maybe I should take a 100-level programming class." Class assignment one: opening and closing a function Class assignment two: Program a functional Connect Four game There was no instruction in between assignment one and two, you just had to figure it out. Assignment three was another equally retardedly complex step up. I figured, why the gently caress would I be taking the class if I already knew how to program, and dropped it. If only I had done the same thing with Advanced Calc.
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Aug 17, 2010 02:16
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_areaman posted:Yeah but it's not like you graduate with a CS degree and your first employer has to teach you how to code. The impression I get from law school is there's a lot of hand holding by your first employer, while it would be rather embarrassing to start as a software engineer with no ability to program. Okay, I get what you're saying. However, the disparity isn't that large. It's not like your employer expects to teach you what a fee simple estate is, in the same way that your first CS employer doesn't expect to teach you what a loop is. Law school teaches you enough to be able to jump into the field of law you end up working in, much like a CS degree teaches you how to analyze a problem in order to code a solution for it. Writing code is a lot like writing a contract, or a brief. There's a lot of art involved, in that there are many ways to arrive at a solution. The quality of your solution is the measure of your worth; the solution itself is often clear from the beginning. It's because of this that CS departments focus on theory at the expense of 'practical coding'. EDIT: _areaman posted:Dude I get it I graduated from one of those highly ranked programs and make my living as a software engineer. Almost all of my courses were theoretical but I certainly learned "how to program" over the course of my degree, saying I taught myself or something would be nonsense. Okay, so we're essentially saying the same thing.
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Aug 17, 2010 02:17
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GregNorc posted:And in law school, it's the same. You learn the foundations, you don't memorize statues and stuff - that's what the bar exam is for. A nice thought, but unfortunately I don't recall learning anywhere near 3 years worth of foundation. Not even one year's worth of foundation. I learnt a lot that needed to be unlearnt (LRW is a good example), and a lot of material that was either utterly obsolete (thanks property law for all that feudalism goodness), or just so horribly detached from reality that the class was rendered worthless (prof responsibility, a really lovely class on juries, etc). There was some foundation to be sure, chiefly from Crim Pro, evidence, as well as a couple of weeks from civ pro if you're in to that sort of thing. The absolute best class was taught by a judge who just spent the semester running trials with us as the characters. That in no way constitutes a degree's worth of foundation, though. At best, it's more like 3 or 4 undergrad classes. You could fit it into a small fraction of a pre-law degree. Instead, they've fit it in to 3 years worth of law school, and pocketed a hundred thousand dollars a head in the process. How any of it prepares you to write a good brief, do a jury trial, run a private practice, or do really anything of practical worth is beyond me. There's a few good classes offered that do help, but they're overwhelmed, and generally should have been taken in high school or undergrad. Yet they run us through the wringer instead; the banks and government will back any citizen academia can lure in for $100,000 worth of useless tuition. It's literally a case of, "for every yank with a bachelors you can find, here's a giant bucket of gold." Is CS anywhere near that appalling? Lykourgos fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Aug 17, 2010 |
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Aug 17, 2010 02:21
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pnumoman posted:Okay, I get what you're saying. However, the disparity isn't that large. It's not like your employer expects to teach you what a fee simple estate is, in the same way that your first CS employer doesn't expect to teach you what a loop is. Law school teaches you enough to be able to jump into the field of law you end up working in, much like a CS degree teaches you how to analyze a problem in order to code a solution for it. Yeah we're in agreement. What I found most surprising in the real world is that breadth of knowledge and ability to overcome problems far outranks elegant solutions. Computers are so fast and open source (MIT license) software so prevalent that simply being able to get the job done, or implement a published algorithm or formula, is 10000x more valuable than an efficient solution (unless it's some critical, must-be-optimized scenario). I love how the moment some piece of software becomes essential, someone releases an open source library. It helps out the whole industry and gives the developer a serious badge of honor. I can't think of another industry where such a situation arises.
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Aug 17, 2010 02:33
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Lykourgos posted:How any of it prepares you to write a good brief, do a jury trial, run a private practice, or do really anything of practical worth is beyond me. There's a few good classes offered that do help, but they're overwhelmed, and generally should have been taken in high school or undergrad. Yet they run us through the wringer instead; the banks and government will back any citizen academia can lure in for $100,000 worth of useless tuition. It's literally a case of, "for every yank with a bachelors you can find, here's a giant bucket of gold." Is CS anywhere near that appalling? Don't forget the incredible bullshit of teaching concepts via caselaw. Christ. I know we're supposed to be learning how to read a case but A) I'm a loving 3L and B) They pick the shittiest possible loving cases. A real case looks like: Abstract I. Facts II. Standard of Review. III. Law A) Issue one B) Issue two C) Issue three IV. Conclusion. Instead I have to put up with hours of bullshit because some professor wanted to make things hard.
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Aug 17, 2010 02:38
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GregNorc posted:I guess what I should say is, you're learning the theory of computation. Not the nitty gritty "this is how you make websites in ruby". pnumoman posted:As a CS major and law school grad, I can testify to the accuracy of this statement.
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Aug 17, 2010 02:45
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GregNorc posted:MIT. Berkley. CMU. They teach the nitty gritty too, just under a different major. CS for theoretics, IT for functional programming.
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Aug 17, 2010 02:46
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For many years, MIT's intro programming class (6.001) was taught in Scheme, a programming language developed at MIT and derived from Lisp. One of the benefits was that since none of the students knew the language coming in, it put everyone on a more level playing field. A few years ago 6.001 was phased out and a new class, 6.01 was put in its place and was based on Python. I'll go sulk away to the med student thread now.
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Aug 17, 2010 03:30
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maskenfreiheit fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Sep 29, 2010 |
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Aug 17, 2010 03:40
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Abugadu posted:I learned this, to my detriment, early on in my undergrad career. I did the same thing. It went from "Hello, World!" to "make a calculator" to "I don't remember what the assignment is because I dropped it after not being able to figure out how to make the calculator". I couldn't get it to divide for some reason; it should have been easy, because I could get it to add, subtract and multiply just fine and division was basically the same thing but for some reason it just wouldn't do it right. So I cheated and just had it display the answer to the equation that the professor gave us after doing it with a normal calculator. He saw through that. It was annoying because everyone else in that class clearly knew how to program so they were all just goofing off in class and playing on laptops and talking to each other about star trek or being a virgin or whatever but for the life of me I couldn't figure it out. I assumed I could because I taught myself how to make games on a TI-83 in high school but NOPE. Unfortunately they waited until after it was too late to drop a class without getting a W on your transcript to ramp up the difficulty so that sucked. Fortunately I figured out that I was too dumb for calculus within one class
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Aug 17, 2010 03:50
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can I take CS courses I love programming
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Aug 17, 2010 04:27
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can I take law courses I love arguing
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Aug 17, 2010 04:30
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GregNorc posted:can I take law courses I love arguing i don't know, were you the type of kid who would argue with his parents about staying up late? Got to make sure you are truly destined to be a lawyer
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Aug 17, 2010 04:38
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Basically it's 60k/yr = 200k rounded off. Hope you have rich parents.
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Aug 17, 2010 05:14
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Phil Moscowitz posted:hahaha what up cancerboy with a regdate of today Be gentle. Residency Evil posted:For many years, MIT's intro programming class (6.001) was taught in Scheme, a programming language developed at MIT and derived from Lisp. One of the benefits was that since none of the students knew the language coming in, it put everyone on a more level playing field. A few years ago 6.001 was phased out and a new class, 6.01 was put in its place and was based on Python. 6.001 ending was very sad 
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Aug 17, 2010 13:49
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Ainsley McTree posted:Fortunately I figured out that I was too dumb for calculus within one class I took it twice. Twice. The only two C's on my entire undergrad transcript. One of the problems was that my Algebra was rusty (I was in the military for four years before I set foot in college, shooting dudes requires no higher math) and our prof just assumed that you could do complex Algebra to the point of skipping it all when doing examples on the board. After doing poorly in it twice and a few failed attempts to understand Inorganic Chemistry, I decided to drop out of pre-med altogether and take classes I enjoyed... saddling me with my worthless BA in History with a minor in Spanish. But if you want to talk about ancient Mayan culture man I can bullshit with you all day while we stand in line at the soup kitchen. Defleshed fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Aug 17, 2010 |
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Aug 17, 2010 15:16
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what the hell is "complex Algebra"?
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Aug 17, 2010 15:35
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Gadamer posted:what the hell is "complex Algebra"? it's that thing where they write letters instead of numbers. Only on complex difficulty they put whole words on each side of the equation.
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Aug 17, 2010 16:00
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GregNorc posted:I know. That's how my university is. Computer Science dept is applied math, compiler logic, assembly, that sort of thing. The information science department is either practical stuff (aka getting poo poo done) or helping get poo poo done with help from other disciplines (cognitive psych, neuroscience, human factors, are three classes I've taken/will take by graduation.) Funny story: When I first started at the patent office, they had me examining applications for operating system kernels, particularly the part that deals with scheduling processes to run in a multiprocessing system. It was way above my head. It took me a couple of months to figure out why they put me there: my transcript from my CS degree listed a course called "Operating Systems." Little did the patent office know that the course was really "Windows has windows, Linux has a command line."
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Aug 17, 2010 19:09
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Man..."Enough about how awesome our firm is, what you like us to tell you about how awesome our firm is?" Can't wait 'til Friday, that's my first *real* interview. Maybe we'll be BFFs.
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Aug 17, 2010 19:16
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ahahahahahahaha we're all screwed (even more)
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Aug 17, 2010 22:08
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Shut up. Sealand University would be awesome. 
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Aug 17, 2010 22:12
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Residency Evil posted:For many years, MIT's intro programming class (6.001) was taught in Scheme, a programming language developed at MIT and derived from Lisp. One of the benefits was that since none of the students knew the language coming in, it put everyone on a more level playing field. A few years ago 6.001 was phased out and a new class, 6.01 was put in its place and was based on Python. Residency Evil, I too lurk this thread because I always have that "grass is greener" mentality when it comes to other fields (law and engineering).
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Aug 17, 2010 22:12
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Elotana posted:ahahahahahahaha we're all screwed (even more) gently caress this let's go be professors and feed the beast.
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Aug 17, 2010 22:12
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