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Sir John Falstaff posted:But then, neither have the previous administrations, so it's still a step forward, even if a tiny one. Yeah, but it's not the step to take first. It's like stepping inside your house before opening your door. They're both things you need to do, but you need to do them in the right order, otherwise you'll hit your face on the door. If you don't stop the prison rape, desegregating HIV positive inmates will do a lot more harm than good.
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Aug 15, 2010 00:27
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olylifter posted:In response, the Republican party is going to spin it as Obama trying to increase the spread of AIDS. That makes sense. In response the republican party is going to spin it as awesome because they friggin love absurdly bad things happening to prisoners.
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Aug 15, 2010 05:03
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Just read an article my local newspaper about how 27% of our prison population are non violent drug offenders. The average cost to house a prisoner for their term is 30k, a number that is almost certainly too low. The average cost to put that same prisoner through an intensive rehabilition program? 3k. I was shocked to see something that liberal in my midwest newspaper. That being said, I am dating a high ranking CO. As someone who fundraises for groups fighting the death penalty and feel that it is unexcusable to put anyone to death, it's been a pretty interesting experience. Has it affected my views on that issue, or the importance of rehabilitation? No. But I do understand a lot more of the other side. When my boyfriend goes to work everyday, he has a group of people whose lives ride on his shoulders. Everyday he is fighting a loosing battle to keep everyone safe, fighting bureaucracy and stupid policies all the way. People who've worked as COs for 5 years are less likely to be employed, they burn out constantly and it takes a massive physical and emotional toll. Are there people in the prison system who shouldn't be working there? Hell yes. Are there just as many people who've been ruined by a system who refuses to help them? Oh yeah. But the rules that are in place are good when used. Every pat down when an inmate meets with someone from the outside world keeps everyone involved safe. The paperwork and the protocol are designed to keep people safe and generally they work well. Our state was one of the first to set up stringent systems to stop rape, and while the wages are insanely low compared to neighboring states, we're seen as the safer place to work. The problem is when people start to slack on what they learned at the academy, they stop doing pat downs that are thorough, they look the other way on a kite that implicates a friend, they do stupid human mistakes that everyone makes at every job, but lives are at stake in their case.
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Aug 15, 2010 07:09
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Authorman posted:Of course, the American prison system is anything but rehabilitative and that armed robber is in prison because it is cheaper (and more profitable for interested parties) than providing a social safety net, but that is another point. Do you have any figures on this? I'd be very surprised if we're spending more on social welfare here in Europe than is spent on the Machine in the US. Just thinking on it like; you could pay solid welfare to a few poor families with the money it takes to house one prisoner.
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Aug 16, 2010 16:59
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Randy Marsh posted:Do you have any figures on this? I'd be very surprised if we're spending more on social welfare here in Europe than is spent on the Machine in the US. Just thinking on it like; you could pay solid welfare to a few poor families with the money it takes to house one prisoner. Spent on the machine? I thought the whole point was the private prisons are profitable. They are the least expensive possible "caretakers".
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Aug 16, 2010 17:06
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baquerd posted:Spent on the machine? I thought the whole point was the private prisons are profitable. They are the least expensive possible "caretakers". They aren't the least expensive caretakers; they're the caretakers who most efficiently siphon money from the public purse into the private pockets of the corporations running the prisons. Read up on Public choice theory / regulatory capture. As to overall expense, keep in mind our stratospherically high incarceration rate by comparison with other nations.
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Aug 16, 2010 17:54
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baquerd posted:Spent on the machine? I thought the whole point was the private prisons are profitable. They are the least expensive possible "caretakers". State still spends a huge amount of money per prisoner to house them there. California spends almost $50k per prisoner per year at this point. (http://www.lao.ca.gov/laoapp/laomenus/sections/crim_justice/6_cj_inmatecost.aspx?catid=3 -- hey make prisons spartan so they cost less people, check out how little is spent on prisoner support). You could send each prisoner to UC Berkley (incl room and board) and come back with a savings. nm fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Aug 16, 2010 |
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Aug 16, 2010 18:00
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nm posted:You could send each prisoner to UC Berkley (incl room and board) and come back with a savings.
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Aug 16, 2010 18:06
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baquerd posted:Spent on the machine? I thought the whole point was the private prisons are profitable. They are the least expensive possible "caretakers". False. The thing with private prisons, not only aren't they cheaper, they're significantly less safe- guards are 49% more likely to get assaulted in a private prison, and inmates are 65% more likely (pdf) - despite the fact that a state prison is 7 times more likely to house violent offenders than a private one is (since private prisons get to pick & choose what inmates they accept). Not to mention: FInancial & regulatory manipulation by prison contractors. Private prisons are "comedy goldmine," and the joke's on the taxpayers. $11 robbery may carry death sentence, thanks to privatized prison health care. Idaho private prison is "gladiator school," "one of the most violent in the US," in one of the worst cases the ACLU has ever seen (2 guards per 350 inmates). The amount of the fine for so much violence? $40,000. CCA under federal investigation over staff members raping detained immigrants. GEO Group (Wackenhut) settles case over 10,000 inappropriate strip-searches. More death at private prison sparks Hawaii investigation of AZ facility. Shoddy oversight and cut corners in Kentucky result in over a dozen inmates raped by staff in private facility. CCA had heavy hand in drafting & passing AZ's immigration bill CCA employees admit lax training & hiring standards, including hiring ex-felons. CCA employee is gang member, is involved in gang shooting (along w/ her 16yo son). Here's a 400 page rap sheet for GEO group, the site also links to the other big companies. I can do this all day. But even disregarding all of that, for-profit incarceration was explicitly invented in the post-Civil War South as an end-run around slavery; and now in 2010 we've not only got businessmen directly profiting off mass incarceration but influencing the legislation that generates more prisoners. Abolish it.
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Aug 16, 2010 19:46
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Fire posted:I thought Dave Chappelle did it best when he did a skit where for one day, the criminal justice system worked in reverse. Institutional crimes were treated like street crimes and street crimes were treated like institutional crimes. While, he loses some points by making it a racial thing, because some white redneck DUI is going to get similar treatment, I think the skit does a good job of consciousness raising. How is Goldman-Sachs any less destructive than a small time coke dealer? I like that one, too. Look for Dave Chappelle + "Law and Order" as it's apparently a lampoon of that TV show. I didn't even realize that when I saw the skit since I never watch cop shows.
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Aug 16, 2010 21:58
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Randy Marsh posted:Do you have any figures on this? I'd be very surprised if we're spending more on social welfare here in Europe than is spent on the Machine in the US. Just thinking on it like; you could pay solid welfare to a few poor families with the money it takes to house one prisoner. I can't find the article but I read that comparing a block in Brooklyn from the seventies and now, that despite all the cuts to the social safety nets over the years the government is spending the nearly the same amount of money on that block, having all the social spending replaced by the cost of the 'corrective' system (police, parole, imprisonment and the like).
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Aug 16, 2010 22:33
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Randy Marsh posted:Do you have any figures on this? I'd be very surprised if we're spending more on social welfare here in Europe than is spent on the Machine in the US. Just thinking on it like; you could pay solid welfare to a few poor families with the money it takes to house one prisoner. I've been trying to research this and haven't come up with concrete figures, but it seems we do spend more on welfare than you guys spend on imprisonment. Still, considering that includes things like supporting single mothers and disabled people, etc, it would be a stupid comparison. I remember when I was around 17, a proper waste of space, I ended up homeless initially, but then put in a hostel etc, and later was given government council housing, and welfare. For about 12-18months, I was on around $130 US a week in welfare, with about half that going directly to my rent. By no means was I well off, and never was the incentive to improve myself removed, I mean, that money barely covered food. But it gave me a stable base to improve myself from, and I slowly did. But if I was American? Honestly, I'd have carried on with my self destructive path, and probably been in some hellish prison today. We need to help people, make their lives stable, so they can continue independantly and productively, not feed them back into a self cannibalising Machine.
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Aug 16, 2010 22:37
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Authorman posted:I can't find the article but I read that comparing a block in Brooklyn from the seventies and now, that despite all the cuts to the social safety nets over the years the government is spending the nearly the same amount of money on that block, having all the social spending replaced by the cost of the 'corrective' system (police, parole, imprisonment and the like). There was a really great LF thread a long time ago that had all these reports, charts, and interactive(?) maps- focused on Brooklyn, IIRC- that correlated safety-net spending with incarceration rates, recidivism rates, all sorts of things. Mostly centered on housing location, I think? Emphatically not trying to make excuses, but I got hit in the head a lot (some by prison guards but mostly by police at Arpaio protests [long story]), and my memory's not what it used to be. I had some of the maps on my old computer before it crashed- maybe someone remembers that thread or the OP and can post the stuff here? I have plat so I'll be glad to PM the OP if someone remembers and doesn't have that ability.
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Aug 16, 2010 23:26
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Does anyone have any knowledge regarding celebrity prisoners? I imagine unless it's something particularly heinous they're treated with kid gloves the entire way, protective custody, that sort of thing? Is it almost entirely a personal thing, like a B-grade celebrity no one has really heard of but a guard likes gets special treatment? I'm curious why none of the many celebrities that have been arrested (and some sent to prison) have been particularly aggressive towards the police that I am aware of.
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Aug 18, 2010 06:29
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baquerd posted:Does anyone have any knowledge regarding celebrity prisoners? I imagine unless it's something particularly heinous they're treated with kid gloves the entire way, protective custody, that sort of thing? Is it almost entirely a personal thing, like a B-grade celebrity no one has really heard of but a guard likes gets special treatment? Generally speaking, celebrities or high-profile cases are kept in special housing both for their own protection and to avoid disrupting the day-to-day on the main line. For example Arpaio told everyone he had DMX in his dog n' pony tent deal, when in reality he was on a minimum tier in the actual Phoenix jail- the lie stopped when he gave an interview from the jail, only to be repeated after his release. Arpaio has some kind of mental disorder that renders him almost totally incapable of telling the truth, even when it comes to something as inconsequential as that. Tyson always did his time in special-needs, same with the UFC guy who got locked up a while ago. You just can't have a guy like that on the main line. Especially Tyson with his temper- why take the chance he goes ballistic on someone and then gets stabbed to death. Imagine being the warden and having to go on TV saying that Mike Tyson got carved liked a Thanksgiving turkey on your watch. Or the flipside: imagine that you're an active gang member already doing double life no parole, and you know you're headed for the SHU sooner or later once the gang-intelligence unit validates you- with nothing left to lose, why not be the guy who killed Iron Mike? Some people think it isn't fair for celebs (or cops) to go to special housing, but there's really no other way. The key to a successful prison sentence is staying low profile, off the radar to the extent possible. A celeb is handicapped from the get-go, by definition they're not low profile, so it's "fair" in the sense that by going to special-needs they're getting a chance to work their programs & do their time without excessive drama. I mean ideally it wouldn't be necessary because we'd run every yard like a special-needs yard (or a military one), but it's the best solution in a far-from-ideal prison system. Everybody deserves to do they time in peace, which is why I don't really get on the "send Tyson, cops, and Michael Vick to the main line" bandwagon- that's the same bandwagon that idiots ride when they advocate for harsh prison conditions/prison sexual assault, after all. Like the "prison rape is an ideal situation" guy who posted on this board, and it didn't seem like he was joking. Ridiculous. Although in some ways that guy might have been a product of something beyond himself, media and the like, or maybe just too much time on the internet. I mean, I "get" it, and better than most. After all I did do some pretty unacceptable violence to some people when I was in prison, a little younger and a lot dumber. Based largely on peculiarities of prison social rules- but based in part on they crimes- and one guy may not ever be the same, and I have to live with it, that I made time a lot worse for some guys, even though I try to make it better for others nowdays. All that pain, and headache for the staff, and extra prison time for me, and for what? Nothing, in retrospect, although at the time it seemed more than nothing. That's for another thread, I guess. TLDR: generally speaking yes celebs get treated/housed different, no it doesn't seem fair, but when you think about it for 30 seconds, it really is & can't be done any other way.
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Aug 18, 2010 08:43
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HidingFromGoro posted:Everybody deserves to do they time in peace Therefore we only give that chance to rich and famous people?
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Aug 18, 2010 12:19
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You are purposely misconstruing HFG's post to make a point and it makes you look like a child. Which you are in actuality, if this is what passes for a witty rejoinder in your neck of the woods. Jesus H. Christ of course basic human rights should be extended to ALL convicts. Is this still a point of debate past page seven?!
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Aug 18, 2010 12:24
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Willie Tomg posted:You are purposely misconstruing HFG's post to make a point and it makes you look like a child. Which you are in actuality, if this is what passes for a witty rejoinder in your neck of the woods. They did a study about cutting in lines and excuses where they had people go up to a bust copy machine and give various excuses to why they needed to cut and recorded how often people would let them with each excuse, and it turned out "I need to make copies" worked as well as any excuse because it sounds like an excuse even if it's just saying the thing your doing. Nothing he says actually refutes the idea they are getting unfair treatment by the justice system he's just restating that they do and saying that means it's okay.
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Aug 18, 2010 12:34
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mew force shoelace posted:They did a study about cutting in lines and excuses where they had people go up to a bust copy machine and give various excuses to why they needed to cut and recorded how often people would let them with each excuse, and it turned out "I need to make copies" worked as well as any excuse because it sounds like an excuse even if it's just saying the thing your doing. Stating that they get unfair treatment in no way advocates that treatment...
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Aug 18, 2010 12:38
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baquerd posted:Stating that they get unfair treatment in no way advocates that treatment... It wouldn't be without "it doesn't seem fair, but when you think about it for 30 seconds, it really is".
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Aug 18, 2010 12:47
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mew force shoelace posted:Therefore we only give that chance to rich and famous people? He said right in the post that he'd prefer for everyone to get a safe environment man. HidingFromGoro posted:I mean ideally it wouldn't be necessary because we'd run every yard like a special-needs yard
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Aug 18, 2010 12:47
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mew force shoelace posted:It wouldn't be without "it doesn't seem fair, but when you think about it for 30 seconds, it really is". Holy poo poo you literally lack basic reading comprehension. Or you just didn't read. I'm inclined to believe either, neither flattering.
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Aug 18, 2010 13:17
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Willie Tomg posted:Holy poo poo you literally lack basic reading comprehension. Or you just didn't read. I'm inclined to believe either, neither flattering. It isn't fair, the way the justice system treats rich or famous people is absurd.
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Aug 18, 2010 13:24
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HFG I'm sure you've touched on this in the past and possibly even in this thread but I'd be curious to hear your take on the use of prisons as economic development for white communities at the expense of black and hispanic ones. Like I said, you've probably talked about it before. What I'm referring to specifically is the phenomenon in America that when an community, especially a rural white one, is economically distressed, the resuscitation of their economy can occur by opening up a prison, then filling that prison. An extreme example is the prison in Montana that wanted to house Guantanamo prisoners a while back. Without quoting the whole article... quote:"This place would be torture for some of those boys." But, he allows, "I think it would be great for all the law enforcement people to be here. It would help our housing market. Our city fathers wanted the economic benefits, but I guess they didn't foresee the political controversies." This is a recurring theme in areas where the economy needs a jump start - build a prison, fill it with some undesirables (brown people), then your town is back on its way to success (for white people)! So yeah, if you've got anything to add to that, I'd appreciate it.
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Aug 18, 2010 13:46
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mew force shoelace posted:It isn't fair, the way the justice system treats rich or famous people is absurd. The alternative is a death sentence. If Mike Tyson goes to the main line at Pelican Bay he's not coming out. That's just real. Same for the UFC guys, we're talking about strong guys, pro athletes; not even that, professional fighters- beat folks' rear end for a living- but that's not going to matter in GenPop at a state prison. The risk is just too great putting these guys on the main line in the name of some sort of egalitarianism. Not just from fighting, you'd have a giant extortion risk because everyone on that yard knows the guy is rich. Their loved ones on the outside could potentially be at risk. I mean that's literally why special-needs exists. It's right there in the name: Tyson and other celebrities are extreme edge cases who have special needs when they go to prison, just because of who they are. Now, we can debate whether special-needs should even exist in the first place- and it should- but that's different from whether celebs should be put there for their own safety + maintaining the (absolutely crucial) routine in the day-to-day of the other inmates. I hear what you're saying, you're saying "why should they get special treatment because they're famous," and that's absolutely a valid question, especially coming from someone who's (I'm assuming) never been in prison. If you asked me that question "in a vacuum" (or however you say it) then I would answer no. What I'm saying is you need to flip it- you need to ask "should they get worse treatment- which is all but guaranteed outside of special housing- on account of being famous." I don't know how much more clearly I can state it: Everyone in prison deserves a safe and "fair" sentence. Nobody deserves beatings, extortion, or stabbings. They weren't sentenced to that. That's why there's no co-ed housing units. That's why pedophiles are housed separately, and why transgender should be housed separately. Some people even go so far as to advocate racially segregated prisons. I don't, because I know what would happen in the Afro-American and Latino units- and besides, the inmates have self-segregated prisons for 50 years now. That self-segregation is what's preventing an all-out race war from erupting in Califas- a war that can and absolutely would consume the entire nation. Not just in the prisons, but in the streets- your streets, your place of business, everything & everywhere, all the time. Anyway. Don't think about it like the World, where being famous is an advantage. Think about it in terms of the Inside. In prison, it's a handicap. It sounds counter-intuitive, but think about it in terms of knowing that the key to doing a safe & successful prison sentence is being low-profile. To be sure, it's a handicap, in some ways worse than a physical disability. Sounds strange, but it's true. Special housing is actually "leveling the playing field" for celebs.
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Aug 18, 2010 22:35
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Maheda posted:HFG I'm sure you've touched on this in the past and possibly even in this thread but I'd be curious to hear your take on the use of prisons as economic development for white communities at the expense of black and hispanic ones. Like I said, you've probably talked about it before. Well it gets even worse than that, to the point where you'l have a prison with 155 staff members and only 6 inmates But yeah, that's why it's called the prison-industrial complex. UNICOR makes all the furniture for the government, electronics, targets, kevlar vests, uniforms, linens, auto parts... you name it and UNICOR makes it with inmate labor at 23 cents an hour (less 50% to pay court-ordered debts). Their products are only used by the government, though. Here's a list of the different state prison industry agencies. Inmate labor is very cheap and what you might call a "renewable resource." But that's just inmate labor. There's a whole world of industry, political clout, and revenue that comes along with prisons. Build a prison in your town, and there's construction & materials contracts, hundreds of new jobs for guards, maintenance, support staff, training facilities, equipment vendors; then the contractors to supply the soap, the food, the weapons (and plenty of instructors/seminars to go with them). Then you've got the boost to retail & restaurants where the guards are going to spend their money and the little counseling centers where the released inmates will spend their money to comply with their mandatory programs post-release. When guys get paroled sometimes they have to go to classes, or simply go to an office and get one form or the other stamped, maybe get the little sensor thing on their car if they're a drunk driver or parenting education classes or drug counseling or piss tests... that's all paid out-of-pocket by the offender. They'll need parole/probation/community supervision officers, and those officers will need chairs and computers and pens and copiers- and then the contracts for the maintenance man who fixes the copier, and the guy who runs the crew to clean the carpets (and the carpet supplier too, while I'm at it). Contracts for the poor Wackenhut saps to drive the bus shuttling inmates to and fro, contracts for company that makes the ankle monitors, and the company that maintains the vehicles bought on the fleet contract from the dealership (owned by the guy who knows a guy that secured the contract in the first place). Contracts to buy walkie-talkies, golf carts, TV sets, toothpaste, taser batteries, gas masks, woodburning kits, the HVAC repairman, metal detectors, basketballs, ethernet wires, shower shoes, meal trays, grenades, kitchen utensils, handcuffs, spit hoods, restraint chairs... there's money to be made everywhere you look when a new prison comes to town. Now, after building all of this and greasing so many wheels in the process, you get the added bonus of being able to count all these inmates as residents/constituents via prison gerrymandering (who incidentally can't vote against you- or at all, for that matter) to increase your political clout. Plus you're tough on crime, you stimulated the economy, and you brought all these great jobs to all these hard working red-blooded Americans. See you at your re-election party! But there is one thing the Machine produces that is more important than all of this: more inmates. Take away the student loans, take away those other dozens or hundreds of other privileges for a drug conviction that I posted about earlier in the "closing the gap" post (the government even admits its to punish "casual drug users" by taking away all federal benefits). Take away everything you can while making sure there is a minimal "safety net" (wouldn't wanna waste money on "deficit spending" for "entitlements," now would you?) and you're certain to make sure there will always be more inmates. It's like the old saying "the bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy." The dragon eating its own tail, or what have you. HidingFromGoro fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Aug 18, 2010 |
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Aug 18, 2010 23:16
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mew force shoelace posted:It isn't fair, the way the justice system treats rich or famous people is absurd. No, the way your justice system treats the non-rich and non-famous people is absurd. You should be striving to ensure that every inmate can expect a safe environment behind bars, not tearing down the few who get it.
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Aug 18, 2010 23:34
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Calantus posted:No, the way your justice system treats the non-rich and non-famous people is absurd. You should be striving to ensure that every inmate can expect a safe environment behind bars, not tearing down the few who get it. This is an incredibly good point, this is 100% what I agree with now.
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Aug 18, 2010 23:36
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HidingFromGoro posted:the Machine A lot of people have accused me of hyperbole, and maybe they're right. But this poo poo- this Machine- affects you. Yeah you, the Something Awful Debate & Discussion reader- YOU. That money It's gobbling up? Your tax money. The Constitutional rights It erodes or shits on entirely? Your rights. The souls It feeds on? Your neighbors, co-workers, valet drivers; your brother or cousin or son. That law enforcement budget getting stretched with paying out settlements and corrupt privatization contracts? That's less budget to investigate or prevent crimes against you. That state people ridicule? Your state. Wrong side of the tracks? Your side. That politician who got into office and is screwing you over? Your politician. That guy who got raped or otherwise abused when he was in prison, thanks to inept, overworked, or nonexistent guards; and who's pissed the gently caress off at the whole world, and ready to explode? He's working at your gas station, or grocery store, or mechanic- you see him every day, whether you know it or not. Your kids see him every day, too.
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Aug 18, 2010 23:54
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HidingFromGoro posted:Well it gets even worse than that, to the point where you'l have a prison with 155 staff members and only 6 inmates I wanna make a joke about prison ouroboros here but it's so drat hosed up. I'm not sure how anyone gets away with claiming America is some kind of bastion of human rights. Thx4postin (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 18, 2010 23:55
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HidingFromGoro posted:A lot of people have accused me of hyperbole, and maybe they're right. No, they're wrong. You've hit the nail on the head. Many don't like to read or hear things like this. Anyone who's ever had a taste of it wouldn't accuse you of hyperbole at all, even if they might nit pick over some details.
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Aug 19, 2010 23:28
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HidingFromGoro posted:A lot of people have accused me of hyperbole, and maybe they're right. The only people accusing you of hyperbole are the same idiots who want to pretend this country doesn't have the most people behind bars than any other nation, at any other point in history.
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Aug 19, 2010 23:46
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HidingFromGoro posted:informative stuff on the prison industrial complex http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,2009197,00.html Meant to post that yesterday - population 46,000, home to 13 prisons. The last one is terrifying: State of the Art The newest complex in the valley, Colorado State Penitentiary II, is currently under construction in the heart of Cañon City. At this facility, a state-prison spokesman says, prisoners "won't receive any visits or calls. They won't have contact with anyone. That's our version of Supermax."
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Aug 20, 2010 00:29
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olylifter posted:http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,2009197,00.html Notice how politicians will say out one side of their mouth how sophisticated, restrictive, and secure Supermax prisons are. And out the other side of their mouth, they will say that we "need" to put Taliban suspects or whoever in Gitmo because they're "too dangerous" for US prisons.
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Aug 20, 2010 03:10
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HidingFromGoro posted:Notice how politicians will say out one side of their mouth how sophisticated, restrictive, and secure Supermax prisons are. And out the other side of their mouth, they will say that we "need" to put Taliban suspects or whoever in Gitmo because they're "too dangerous" for US prisons. I always figured they didn't want them in an american prison because if they are such high profile inmates they'd have to be put into PC and out of gen pop just like other celebrities and thusly wouldn't get the same horrible treatment terrible criminals like illegal aliens and crack heads get.
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Aug 20, 2010 03:23
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lemonadesweetheart posted:I always figured they didn't want them in an american prison because if they are such high profile inmates they'd have to be put into PC and out of gen pop just like other celebrities and thusly wouldn't get the same horrible treatment terrible criminals like illegal aliens and crack heads get. Just put them in the Glass House at the Navy brig in Miramar or the adseg alpha unit - converted & funded for this specific purpose in 2002- at the Charleston brig, problem solved. They don't qualify to go to a state prison (luckily for them), in any case.
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Aug 20, 2010 03:47
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Yeah, but don't they just use that as the excuse to avoid bringing the inmates at Guantanamo back to American soil where they'd be covered by American laws and entitled to, I don't know, trials and such? Off-topic for the prison thread, but still, its further evidence of the general hypocrisy afoot.
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Aug 20, 2010 05:05
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olylifter posted:prisoners "won't receive any visits or calls. They won't have contact with anyone. That's our version of Supermax." How in the gently caress is that legal or constitutional? Don't you at least have the right to legal counsel?
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Aug 21, 2010 07:46
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Mister Macys posted:How in the gently caress is that legal or constitutional? It's called CMU or "Communication Management Unit." For immigrants, it can be even worse, with denial of attorney or family visits- even going so far as to shuffle them around to different facilities without telling anyone where the inmates are actually located, within Homeland Security's immigrant-only network of secret prisons (the so-called ICE Castles). This includes Haiti earthquake refugees who were mistakenly brought to the US by military relief planes- and then subsequently sent directly into jail for lack of visas. No, really. Some of them have already been shuffled into other facilities; and you guessed it, substandard or nonexistent medical care & legal representation as well as indefinite detention. quote:The government’s actions have been especially bewildering for the survivors’ relatives, like Virgile Ulysse, 69, an American citizen who keeps an Obama poster on his kitchen wall in Norwalk, Conn. Mr. Ulysse said he could not explain to his nephews, Jackson, 20, and Reagan, 25, why they were brought to the United States on a military plane only to be jailed at the Broward center when they arrived in Orlando on Jan. 19. "And the Obama administration has stepped up detention and deportation of so-called criminal aliens, including many legal immigrants with low-level drug convictions." e: to answer your first question- It isn't. To your second- There are a lot of rights you have in theory, which may or may not be afforded you in practice; should you get locked up in the US. HidingFromGoro fucked around with this message at 09:47 on Aug 21, 2010 |
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Aug 21, 2010 09:40
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HidingFromGoro posted:This includes Haiti earthquake refugees who were mistakenly brought to the US by military relief planes- and then subsequently sent directly into jail for lack of visas. Wow, i read about the ICE Castles in this thread (or the LF one), but jailing Haiti refugees as soon as they're off the plane? What the gently caress? Am I misunderstanding something? Were they stowaways who illegally got onto american military planes or were they told to get on the plane by some official, only to be jailed on arrival? It's baffling, why would they fly in Haitians just to jail them in secret prisons? Aren't those "ICE castle" publicly funded? Is someone getting a bonus for thinking up that scheme?
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Aug 21, 2010 15:40
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