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If I'm a junior in high school interested in engineering, specifically EE, what can I do now to help prepare myself for the future?
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Aug 20, 2010 00:17
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Stinkyhead posted:If I'm a junior in high school interested in engineering, specifically EE, what can I do now to help prepare myself for the future? If your school offers any engineering classes, go check those out. What really worked for me was a program called FIRST (For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology). It's a robotics competition started by Dean Kamen (the guy who made the Segway), and it's a great way to learn about engineering. If your school doesn't have a team you could talk to teachers and sponsors about possibly starting one. Beyond that I would suggest seeing if any small engineering businesses have use for high school workers. One of the local companies I do a lot of business with is a rapid prototyping firm, and they have teenagers help with some of the fabrication work. Just don't have your mom apply for you. Another option is to look at internship opportunities, either through your school or local government labs. NASA usually has a bunch of ways for young people to get involved.
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Aug 20, 2010 00:26
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Stinkyhead posted:If I'm a junior in high school interested in engineering, specifically EE, what can I do now to help prepare myself for the future? Take Calc including AP. Take physics.
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Aug 20, 2010 02:42
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RealKyleH posted:Take Calc including AP. Take physics. AP Physics and AP Chem were the most immediately useful courses to me as a freshman. Calc didn't hurt either, but don't worry too much if your school doesn't offer any sort of 'pre-engineering' class like some of the magnets out there.
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Aug 20, 2010 03:25
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Forever Zero posted:I have a question, I can't decide if I would rather go into medicine or Engineering. Math kicked my rear end at first, but someone told me that the classes get somewhat easier the higher you go because they aren't "weed out" courses anymore, also, which one is better for job opportunities? Do engineering then a MD-PhD program for complete insanity.
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Aug 20, 2010 03:39
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Forever Zero posted:I have a question, I can't decide if I would rather go into medicine or Engineering. Math kicked my rear end at first, but someone told me that the classes get somewhat easier the higher you go because they aren't "weed out" courses anymore, also, which one is better for job opportunities?
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Aug 20, 2010 04:09
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grover posted:They don't really teach much, if any, power engineering in college. A lot of it is just OJT and work experience. slorb posted:They usually don't in undergrad but if you're a grad student or working in the power industry they offer a lot of short courses to fill in the gaps as well as the traditional research projects. There's a few courses that are kinda related to power that my Uni offers but I guess they can't really cover everything. slorb posted:I think I know the program you're on Beasticly and its a good one. Try and figure out which part of the industry you want to work in so you can get vac work there before you graduate. Awesome! Getting the opportunity to do vacation work after only my first year is kind of intimidating but on the other hand it seems like it'll be a fantastic experience.
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Aug 20, 2010 11:03
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Thoguh fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Aug 10, 2023 |
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Aug 20, 2010 14:28
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It’s really amazing the amount of information contained in this thread, so very helpful. Thanks. Now on to my situation. I'm a 22 year old male that just transferred into a university from a community college and got demolished by the workload. I failed physics, chem. and calc 2. Pulled a 0 GPA my first term. It was insane. I want to do controlled demolition more than anything, in fact - it’s the only thing I’ve ever really wanted to do. The idea of explosives really intrigues me, being able to take down a structure that took years to build with some planning, application and execution seems so neat to me. Explosives and fire in general has always intrigued me. I was pursuing Civil Engineering degree with an ideal focus on structural engineering. I imagined the gained knowledge on how to erect the buildings would be helpful in taking them down. But here I am, a student with 40+ credits 2.0 GPA and a .8 engineering GPA. I retook calc 1 here and got a b-. I tried to take calc 2 over the summer, but it was too much too fast. I really don't know what to do with my life, I was wrestling with the idea of getting a accounting degree and then maybe getting a masters in industrial engineering. I had brief idea of maybe even becoming a personal finance consultant or internal auditor, but that seems like a really lovely job to me. I’ve decided to take macro and micro economics to get a feel of it (and to get me out of academic probation); I'm also taking Physics 1 again to see if I can do it. If I can pull a b or better, I’ll stick with engineering, if not – ill think about what to do next. Any advice on my situation or how to pursue my career goal will be helpful. My advisers are all very strongly in favor of me leaving engineering as they feel I'm not capable of it. I however feel that once I get my math to where it should be ill be fine. So please, chime in on my situation and goals. Anything is helpful at this point.
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Aug 20, 2010 18:41
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Geraldo Rivera posted:It’s really amazing the amount of information contained in this thread, so very helpful. Thanks. I really hate to break it to you, but I think your advisers might be right. It's one thing to pull Cs and ask if maybe you should stick with it, but outright failing is a different can of worms. It's not just getting the math right, but engineering uses all sorts of related problem-solving skills directly related to physics (and sometimes chemistry). Calc 2 is freshman year sort of stuff, and if it's not for you then it's not for you. I'm not trying to be a dick or discourage you or anything, so please don't take this the wrong way. It's just that it's not like it's going to suddenly get any easier even when you figure out the math. If anything it gets pretty crazy hard. If you are determined to stick with it, have you looked into getting tutoring? Maybe going part time and only taking a few classes a semester so you're not so overwhelmed? Do you think it's a problem of lack of focus on your part, or do you genuinely just not get it? If it's the former, you could probably fix it. If it's the latter, it's gonna be tough. When I started school I briefly thought about doing mathematics. Later, I learned that I'm really bad at high-level abstract math. Never understood what a Hilbert space was, and I couldn't prove anything to save my life in real analysis. I could never be a PhD student in mathematics no matter how much I study and work at it, because I know that I just wouldn't do very well and never really had the 'cleverness' or whatever you want to call it to ingeniously see proofs like some of my friends could. I chugged through my graduate math classes and got the grades I needed (barely), but I didn't try to fool myself into thinking I could someday become a genius at it. We all have things we're good at and bad at, and there's no shame. I'd say that you're doing the right thing by looking at your other options; there are plenty of good careers out there that don't involve engineering.
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Aug 20, 2010 18:50
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Pfirti86 posted:
Thank you for the honest reply, seriously. I have no problem understanding the work, I understand concepts rather easily. Its the application of it on a test. I honestly think i just don't do enough problems. Thats why I'm going to try one math based class this term and give it all i have and await the result. I know I'm capable of it, I just have a hard time sitting down and spending 7 hours a day studying. I'm at the point where it's do or die. I fully, 100% think its an issue with my discipline, nothing more. I just don't want to spend the time getting a degree that ill hate, or one that I wont be able to use. My brother came from the same lovely math background as me, NYC public schools and he really had to bust his hump to get his CS degree - but he did it. If the engineering degree fails I may just stop school as a whole, a few members of my family are union members across different trades. I'm just trying to wrap my head around my options and get some unbiased opinions from people that don't have to worry about my feelings.
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Aug 20, 2010 19:04
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Geraldo Rivera posted:Thank you for the honest reply, seriously. Like it or not discipline will make or break you when it comes to engineering. If you can't force yourself to know basic calculus well enough to take a test then you're going to have a ton of trouble in the senior level classes. It's going to be even more difficult when you enter the real world and have to consult multiple textbooks and web sources to find a way to even start to solve a problem. You sound like a smart guy who likes to solve problems. Have you considered becoming a machinist? Machinists are tradesmen who are responsible for fabricating parts out of technical drawings. The work is challenging and varied, and every day you get to work with your hands. There's a huge technical aspect that involves feed rates, material selection, tolerancing, and interpretation of drawings. That's combined with a ton of spatial reasoning as you try to understand not only what part a drawing is supposed to represent, but also how to actually make that part. The math requirements are very low, but I've never met a stupid machinist. One of the most brilliant machinists I ever had the pleasure to meet couldn't spell to save his life, but give him some metal and he could make works of art. I saw him TIG weld a piece of copper pipe to the side of an aluminum can for the hell of it. A good engineer will listen to a machinist when they give advice. With regards to controlled demolition I actually looked into that when I got out of college. The community is incredibly insular and businesses are generally family owned and operated. It's incredibly unlikely that you would get a job there.
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Aug 21, 2010 01:58
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:A good engineer will listen to a machinist when they give advice. I always give great weight to the advice of technicians, who are really a lifesaver in many ways.
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Aug 21, 2010 02:13
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So I got a BA in Chemistry and am currently working in an Organic Synthesis lab. I am going to be applying for a MS in Chem E. I only took Calc 1 and 2 but I got As in both. So... What are my chances in getting into grad school for a MS in Chem E? Did you guys have many straight chem majors in your programs? I'd really like to go back and end up in energy or plastics or something.
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Aug 21, 2010 02:29
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soupy posted:So I got a BA in Chemistry and am currently working in an Organic Synthesis lab. I am going to be applying for a MS in Chem E. I only took Calc 1 and 2 but I got As in both. So... What are my chances in getting into grad school for a MS in Chem E? Did you guys have many straight chem majors in your programs? I'd really like to go back and end up in energy or plastics or something. We have had a few pure chemistry people. Usually you'll be required to take a few prereqs, especially in undergrad reactor design and maybe separations. Really though you should be okay as long as you know how to sling around a differential equation. Your typical chemE masters program involves the following courses: Graduate Thermodynamics (sometimes a mixture of classical and statistical, sometimes pure statistical) Graduate Fluid Mechanics Graduate Transport Phenomena (heat and mass) Graduate Reactor Design Usually some sort of 'Graduate Engineering Mathematics' which will mostly cover partial differential equations and linear algebra, though it varies a lot from school to school Electives (and all sorts of electives too, from microfluidics to tissue engineering). So what you should notice is that there isn't a whole lot of chemistry in there. It's really more of a physics thing than anything else; you might have encountered some of these topics in physical chem. Edit: Yikes, you've never taken an ordinary DiffEq course? You might want to brush up on that BIG TIME before applying to any chemE MS programs. Is there any way you could take a remedial class or something? Foyes36 fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Aug 21, 2010 |
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Aug 21, 2010 02:45
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Pfirti86 posted:We have had a few pure chemistry people. Usually you'll be required to take a few prereqs, especially in undergrad reactor design and maybe separations. Really though you should be okay as long as you know how to sling around a differential equation. Your typical chemE masters program involves the following courses: I mean we did some dif eq in calc 2 but never got too deep into it. I can get a handle on those pretty easily. I had a 3.6 and I'm hoping the work experience helps me a lot, just scared that lack of calc 3 and lack of dif eq wont screw me over super bad.
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Aug 21, 2010 02:47
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soupy posted:I mean we did some dif eq in calc 2 but never got too deep into it. I can get a handle on those pretty easily. I had a 3.6 and I'm hoping the work experience helps me a lot, just scared that lack of calc 3 and lack of dif eq wont screw me over super bad. See my edit above. Calc 3 is really just adding the z-plane to everything, and not critically important (though you might get confused in fluids). But yeah, DiffEq is pretty important. I mean, I know I used Laplace transforms in reactor design. You'll definitely be solving partial differential equations in mass transport (did your calc 2 class go into Fourier transforms or Bessel functions)? You might get a taste of these in the grad math course, but I'd get brushed up on the DiffEq. Really though you shouldn't prevent it from letting you apply, you might just struggle a lot more. I guess I should say that I have an MSE in chemical engineering, and the school I went to was highly theoretical in its education with a great emphasis on analytical mathematics (Princeton). Your program might be different, though I imagine the general information and course structures will be similar.
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Aug 21, 2010 02:51
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Pfirti86 posted:See my edit above. Calc 3 is really just adding the z-plane to everything, and not critically important (though you might get confused in fluids). But yeah, DiffEq is pretty important. I mean, I know I used Laplace transforms in reactor design. You'll definitely be solving partial differential equations in mass transport (did your calc 2 class go into Fourier transforms or Bessel functions)? You might get a taste of these in the grad math course, but I'd get brushed up on the DiffEq. Really though you shouldn't prevent it from letting you apply, you might just struggle a lot more. Yeah... Yeah. It sucks, I regret my Chem degree.. If I had gotten a chem e degree I'd be making a decent salary with ability to move up. I'm applying all in Texas, (UT, A&M, UoH, Rice..) so I'm hoping they will be all "OIL NEEDS CHEMISTRY, THIS MAN IS A GENIUS" though I'm not especially expecting it. I'm fine with taking any remedial courses they need me to take, I just want in. Once I'm in, I can work through whatever. Just have to get in.
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Aug 21, 2010 02:57
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soupy posted:Yeah... Yeah. It sucks, I regret my Chem degree.. If I had gotten a chem e degree I'd be making a decent salary with ability to move up. I'm applying all in Texas, (UT, A&M, UoH, Rice..) so I'm hoping they will be all "OIL NEEDS CHEMISTRY, THIS MAN IS A GENIUS" though I'm not especially expecting it. I'm fine with taking any remedial courses they need me to take, I just want in. Once I'm in, I can work through whatever. Just have to get in. The cool thing about MSE programs is that they're usually pretty easy to get into, as typically you pay for it (rather than a PhD program, where they're shelling out for you). You shouldn't have too much trouble finding a good program. There were definitely a few chemistry/biology sorts in my PhD program (mostly kids who went to liberal arts colleges or places like Dartmouth which don't have formal chemE departments) who just had to take a few remedial classes. Good luck with everything!
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Aug 21, 2010 03:05
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Pfirti86 posted:The cool thing about MSE programs is that they're usually pretty easy to get into, as typically you pay for it (rather than a PhD program, where they're shelling out for you). You shouldn't have too much trouble finding a good program. There were definitely a few chemistry/biology sorts in my PhD program (mostly kids who went to liberal arts colleges or places like Dartmouth which don't have formal chemE departments) who just had to take a few remedial classes. Good luck with everything! Thanks! I just want Engineer in my degree so I can get my foot into the door in that field. Hoping this is the best way to do it.
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Aug 21, 2010 03:08
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I have a BS in Petroleum Engineering. Been working in industry as a drilling engineer for 4 years now. I would be happy answer any questions about getting a PE degree and what life in the oilfield is like.
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Aug 21, 2010 04:10
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ch3cooh posted:I have a BS in Petroleum Engineering. Been working in industry as a drilling engineer for 4 years now. I would be happy answer any questions about getting a PE degree and what life in the oilfield is like. Where do you see the petroleum field going? Is it a situation where crude oil is becoming harder and harder to come by thus necessitating more (experienced and awesome) petroleum engineers, or is the push for alternative energy sources driving down the demand for you folks?
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Aug 21, 2010 05:25
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Totally Negro posted:Where do you see the petroleum field going? Is it a situation where crude oil is becoming harder and harder to come by thus necessitating more (experienced and awesome) petroleum engineers, or is the push for alternative energy sources driving down the demand for you folks? Most PE grads in the US go to work in natural gas and not oil. Assuming things can be done to up the demand for natural gas (increasing gas fired power generation, CNG vehicles etc) the field of PE has a bright future for the next 75-100 years. The thing about the industry is that the number of PE students tracks fairly closely with commodity prices with a 2 or 3 year lag. Between the crash of 1986 and the last boom we simply did not produce many PE's. As a result there is a massive age/experience gap in the industry. As an example, up until about a year ago, out of close to 30 engineers and geoscientists in my office I was the youngest by over 20 years. Within my basin workgroup I was the youngest by over 30 years (we have since hired a couple of production engineers in their mid-30s but they were non-trad students with similar or less experience than I have). Our senior staff drilling engineer and geologist are both looking at retirement in the next 3 years. This is where the big demand is coming from. There is a bit of a rush to get young people in the door and get them trained up so that as the previous generation retires there are experienced/qualified professionals ready to step up.
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Aug 21, 2010 06:02
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Pfirti86 posted:The cool thing about MSE programs is that they're usually pretty easy to get into, as typically you pay for it (rather than a PhD program, where they're shelling out for you). You shouldn't have too much trouble finding a good program. There were definitely a few chemistry/biology sorts in my PhD program (mostly kids who went to liberal arts colleges or places like Dartmouth which don't have formal chemE departments) who just had to take a few remedial classes. Good luck with everything! Are you seriously getting paid to get your Ph.D. in ChemE? How is the Ph.D. program for that field? Generally curious, as an old class mate is thinking about doing it, and if I had stuck with it, I mihgt have also done so as well.
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Aug 21, 2010 07:23
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Do any of you read any trade journals or have some sort of other source for what is happening in your industry?
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Aug 21, 2010 08:00
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timtastic posted:Do any of you read any trade journals or have some sort of other source for what is happening in your industry? There are good journals if you can find the one that fills the specific niches you're interested in. A lot of journals aren't particularly useful for anything practical because they publish papers about incredibly specific problems. It's an important function, but often not particularly useful for a design engineer until it works its way into a more generalized model of things unless it's an incredibly specific problem you're actually involved in. That being said, there are journals that publish articles aimed at the more practical as well. There are also publications that focus on case studies and things if that interests you. Personally, I find it more useful to spend a couple hundred bucks on a new text every few months than subscribe to three or four journals for the same price. I've been buying books for several years and still have dozens in the list of ones I want to buy. I can't keep them all at work anymore because I've run out of bookshelf space. I make sure to keep an eye on the information coming out of relevant associations (for me, CISC, AISC, Cement Association of Canada, ACI, a couple of different steel organizations and some other places). I'm a member of a couple of them and always keep an eye out for technical bulletins, design guides, and that kind of thing. I'm also on a couple of mailing lists and like to read and sometimes post on eng-tips.com because it's nice to see and discuss different approaches to problems. edit: But yeah, as an Engineer you're selling problem solving. The more you know, the better and quicker you can come up with a model of a system and the more information you can effectively access the more effective you are. Keep up with learning about your trade. It doesn't matter how you do it as long as your understanding is growing and you can apply it somehow. T.C. fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Aug 21, 2010 |
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Aug 21, 2010 09:21
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timtastic posted:Do any of you read any trade journals or have some sort of other source for what is happening in your industry?
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Aug 21, 2010 09:53
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I read Journal of Petroleum Technology pretty regularly. My one complaint about JPT is that they tend to be extremely focused on reservoir and production engineering with barely a mention of drilling.
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Aug 21, 2010 13:30
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Flyboy925 posted:Are you seriously getting paid to get your Ph.D. in ChemE? How is the Ph.D. program for that field? Generally curious, as an old class mate is thinking about doing it, and if I had stuck with it, I mihgt have also done so as well. Yup. I got paid to get a masters too, but that was somewhat of a special situation. I haven't paid a dime of tuition since spring 2005 of my undergrad years. It's not really that unusual though (well, the masters part was, but like I said, that was an odd thing). Most PhD programs in the sciences and engineering offer full tuition reimbursement and a stipend/health insurance (usually in the range of 24K-30K a year, depending on the generosity of the school). In return, you work in a professor's laboratory and generate research. It's more or less like having a job. I've been done with classes for a while now (still take a few here and there), so school for me is pretty much work. Usually your boss pays your stipend/tuition from his grant money (every professor doing active research will have a pool of money they draw from to fund what they do, usually awarded by government agencies like the NSF or NIH, but sometimes private or university-specific sources too). However, I've been on fellowship for the past two years, so my boss doesn't pay me anything. Instead, my fellowship does. That's what's nice about having one. Sadly, I'll be off it at the end of next year, but I'll probably pick up some TA work (which also pays you instead of your boss), so I shouldn't be too much of a burden. Anyways, like any science/engineering PhD program, it's largely what you make of it. I think the biggest factor in the whole thing is your relationship with your adviser. If you get along okay and generate useful research, then it'll be fine. If you don't, then it'll be pretty painful. Everything else is pretty much secondary to this. The ONLY reason you should want to get a PhD is because you love doing research, otherwise it's a pretty deadend degree that limits a lot of the jobs you can take. Then again, it also opens up quite a few doors that might have previously been closed.
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Aug 21, 2010 13:44
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timtastic posted:Do any of you read any trade journals or have some sort of other source for what is happening in your industry? I work on digital media players and hard drives and do a bunch of test automation using Python. None of these are really covered by trade journals. Instead, I spend a lot of time every day reading forums, reviews, documentation, and more on the internet. Continuous self-education is crucial.
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Aug 22, 2010 19:29
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I'm a Rocket Scientist  .Well, not really. I have a BS in Aerospace Engineering and I've worked for defense/aerospace contractors and NASA. I just graduated in May actually and now I'll be a Mechanical Engineering graduate student focusing on computational fluid dynamics (CFD) next month. If anyone has questions about aerospace engineering, mechanical engineering, fluid dynamics, CFD, or how much paperwork is required for the simplest DoD projects, ask away. Ziir fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Aug 23, 2010 |
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Aug 23, 2010 04:46
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Open question to Engineers in general here: How did you find employment? E.G. Internet, knew someone at the place, etc. I know people at 5 or 6 mid to large size companies locally but any neat tricks for meeting new people in the field are appreciated.
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Aug 23, 2010 04:49
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RealKyleH posted:Open question to Engineers in general here: Are you a student? Go to career fairs. You aren't a student? Try to go to them anyway. A lot of people say these career fairs are useless because they just tell you to register and apply online, but it's how I got my first internship in the industry. They kept me on part time during the school year and would have rehired me the next summer, but I opted to do an REU (research experience for undergraduates) instead. Since that job though, I met quite a people in the aerospace/defense industry in several different companies (they like to make you think that aerospace companies compete with each other, but in reality every single company contracts out to another, sometimes rival, company). If I weren't to go to graduate school, I imagine I could have jumped a lot of lines by emailing these people since they all knew I was graduating soon.
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Aug 23, 2010 05:00
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Ziir posted:Since that job though, I met quite a people in the aerospace/defense industry in several different companies (they like to make you think that aerospace companies compete with each other, but in reality every single company contracts out to another, sometimes rival, company). hahaha I think everyone would be shocked if they found out how many brands/companies of military and aerospace merge or get bought out in hard times but keep separate companies owned by one or two CEOs that started at a main company that is almost always smaller than the companies it owns. The contracting out (and really rebranding) thing that you said is very true as well. When I get closer to graduation I will def hit every job fair.
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Aug 23, 2010 05:08
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RealKyleH posted:When I get closer to graduation I will def hit every job fair. Hit every job fair even if you're not graduating. Typically the same few recruiters get sent to the same school semester after semester. The chances of them remembering you might not be too high depending on the school you go to and your major (recruiters from Microsoft and Lockheed Martin always have long lines), but it's never too late to look for internships. If anything, you could use the experience talking to people and/or get your resume critiqued because it's probably not that good (not trying to be a downer, but most people have crap resumes full of fluff that recruiters see right through). Edit: Fun tip: When you're going to graduate and you have a job in the bag (or grad school), seek out interviews with as many companies as you can at career fairs anyway. Just don't mention you're not actually planning on working at all like I wasn't. A lot of them will fly you out to California, Texas, Washington, etc, pay for all hotels, meals and some even take you out drinking on the company dollar. Is it ethical? Probably not. Is it fun? Hell yes. Ziir fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Aug 23, 2010 |
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Aug 23, 2010 05:22
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RealKyleH posted:Open question to Engineers in general here: Job fairs, or if your campus offers it sign up for on campus interviews for any and every company that does anything that might relate to what you even might want to do. You'll get interview experience and even if you gently caress up the interview there is another one right around the corner. This is how I got my job. I went through 10-15ish interviews on campus at least. A few I completely blew. Like one with Agilent (or whoever makes O-Scopes...etc) I had no idea it was a 'technical interview' and the dude asked me to draw a bunch of really specific circuits and diode charts. I was more EE with a Comp Eng. leaning. So that interview was basically wasted. I think I got a 'thanks for the interview' after about 15 minutes (45 min time allotments for interviews), but it was a great experience. After that I interviewed with someone who I now see at work on a monthly or so basis, it wasn't technical at all, but they thought I had the right attitude for the job (Field Engineering). I have no idea what the on campus recruiting scene is like now, but in late 06 there were shitloads of companies coming every week.
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Aug 23, 2010 05:40
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any engineering interview tips? I have my first one with xcel on thursday.
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Aug 23, 2010 08:24
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Know something about the company, what they do and try to get an idea of what you might be doing there and talk to how you can use your strengths to be a good worker for them. If they ask you something like 'Why are you interested in working for us?' A canned answer like 'I need a job' or 'I'll take whatever I can get at this point' won't get you anywhere. If you're not really sure what you'll be doing at the job ask the interviewer what he/she does/works on. It shows that you're more interested in the company and the job than 'I need a paycheck'. Also when they ask if you have questions ask something like that if it didn't come up before. The more you ask the more you'll stand out and seem interested in the company and the work. If you just sit there and and answer their questions and don't come up with any yourself you'll seem pretty uninterested to the interviewer. Also if it's a full day interview and a younger employee (or any employee for that matter) takes you out to lunch, this is still part of the interview. They aren't just tossing you off with someone to take you to lunch, the person that takes you will fill out some form or talk to the other interviewers and have some sway over whether you get hired or not.
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Aug 23, 2010 16:25
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Thoguh fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Aug 10, 2023 |
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Aug 23, 2010 16:52
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Thoguh fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Aug 10, 2023 |
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Aug 23, 2010 17:07
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