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Dame Cook posted:You seem to have fortuitously avoided the 3.5 entitlement culture, where WOTC's approach was very much 'if we publish it, it's allowed, and the DM has no say in the matter'. Stop playing with terrible people
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Aug 20, 2010 15:42
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Dame Cook posted:You seem to have fortuitously avoided the 3.5 entitlement culture, where WOTC's approach was very much 'if we publish it, it's allowed, and the DM has no say in the matter'. This argument is a crock of poo poo and there is always Rule 0.
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Aug 20, 2010 16:55
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Dame Cook posted:You seem to have fortuitously avoided the 3.5 entitlement culture, where WOTC's approach was very much 'if we publish it, it's allowed, and the DM has no say in the matter'.
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Aug 20, 2010 17:15
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Dame Cook posted:You seem to have fortuitously avoided the 3.5 entitlement culture, where WOTC's approach was very much 'if we publish it, it's allowed, and the DM has no say in the matter'. You seem to have confused Dungeons and Dragons with Hackmaster.
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Aug 20, 2010 17:53
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Dame Cook posted:You seem to have fortuitously avoided the 3.5 entitlement culture, where WOTC's approach was very much 'if we publish it, it's allowed, and the DM has no say in the matter'. I judged, played, organized, and ran cons for 3.5 using Living Greyhawk, the most regimented form of D&D ever devised. We had more cheese than Wisconsin. This is bullshit, entitlement without the DM, please...
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Aug 20, 2010 21:28
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My first 3 years of playing D&D were playing only Living Greyhawk. Why I still like D&D, I'll never know.
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Aug 20, 2010 21:44
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Spiderdrake posted:How precisely is this any different than, say, making up a variant where the paladin falls, redeems himself with a test of faith and becomes a PALADIN AWESOME? By rules as written the Blackguard can multiclass freely, the paladin cannot, and the blackguard cannot fall again. While I definitely like your suggestion more, I find it hilarious that not only is evil quicker easier and free-er, it is more mechanically sound.
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Aug 20, 2010 21:52
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Red_Mage posted:By rules as written the Blackguard can multiclass freely, the paladin cannot, and the blackguard cannot fall again. While I definitely like your suggestion more, I find it hilarious that not only is evil quicker easier and free-er, it is more mechanically sound. I'm not quite sure what you mean mechanically speaking. Didn't they remove all the free/open license stuff for 4.0 or whatever? I'd heard (perhaps even in this thread) that it was a great deal more restrictive.
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Aug 20, 2010 23:23
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Spiderdrake posted:Didn't they remove all the free/open license stuff for 4.0 or whatever? I'd heard (perhaps even in this thread) that it was a great deal more restrictive. I don't know if they removed it, per se, but I know the guy who made the Hypertext D20 SRD said that the new license means he can't make a 4th Ed version of his website, so I would say it's significantly more restrictive in that respect.
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Aug 20, 2010 23:33
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Spiderdrake posted:Games and fanfic writers everywhere have a mad hard on for the idea that you can be a drooling chaotic evil dreadnought of death and destruction without it being restrictive or frustrating. That's just a thing gamers do. It seems to me like the drawbacks for the chaotic evil madman would be more social than statistical. He may be able to multiclass freely, but his reputation as a bloodthirsty monster should precede him everywhere he goes, and no sane town would ever permit him to enter it. He should be set upon by heroes and bounty hunters constantly, and no one would be willing to do business with him if they had half a brain.
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Aug 21, 2010 00:18
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Spiderdrake posted:Didn't they remove all the free/open license stuff for 4.0 or whatever? I'd heard (perhaps even in this thread) that it was a great deal more restrictive. If you accept the 4.0 License, you can't also put out a 3.5 product. It is certainly not an open gaming license.
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Aug 21, 2010 00:23
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TampaTango posted:If you accept the 4.0 License, you can't also put out a 3.5 product. It is certainly not an open gaming license. This is why, among other things, Iron Kingdoms support has almost completely dried up while Privateer Press works on the next edition in-house. Dammit I just wanna roll a proper Gun Mage  
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Aug 21, 2010 00:30
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Neito posted:I don't know if they removed it, per se, but I know the guy who made the Hypertext D20 SRD said that the new license means he can't make a 4th Ed version of his website, so I would say it's significantly more restrictive in that respect. Man, that really sucks. The d20 SRD owns.
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Aug 21, 2010 00:47
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oobey posted:Man, that really sucks. The d20 SRD owns. The problem for WotC is it owns a little too hard. It is one handwritten xp table away from being a replacement PHB. The GSL is restrictive, possibly too restrictive for its own good, and it may be a step backwards, but it isnt like it came out of nowhere.
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Aug 21, 2010 01:15
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Edit: Mispost
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Aug 21, 2010 01:31
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Red_Mage posted:The problem for WotC is it owns a little too hard. It is one handwritten xp table away from being a replacement PHB. I'm not entirely sure that was really ever a problem. It's not like they made their money selling PHBs-- they made money selling supplemental stuff and (I imagine more importantly) setting stuff like Eberron and Faerun. This was much more to their strength as a product, I thought; now they just sell an endless amount of books of mechanical poo poo, punctuated by truncated 2-3 book campaign settings. I liked it better when they were selling me worlds instead of systems, because frankly 'systems' have never been D&D's strong point.
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Aug 21, 2010 04:07
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Dame Cook posted:You seem to have fortuitously avoided the 3.5 entitlement culture, where WOTC's approach was very much 'if we publish it, it's allowed, and the DM has no say in the matter'. But anyway as for the storyarc, I'm sure Malack suffers from a harmless and perfectly legitimate medical condition that requires him to eat special food that is 100% ethically acceptable and that he has to eat in private because they can in no way just specially prepare it to serve to one of the kingdom's leading religious figures at an official state dinner. Because him going back to his study to enjoy some filet de fetus seems a tad too obvious. My Lovely Horse fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Aug 21, 2010 |
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Aug 21, 2010 13:39
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SlimGoodbody posted:It seems to me like the drawbacks for the chaotic evil madman would be more social than statistical. He may be able to multiclass freely, but his reputation as a bloodthirsty monster should precede him everywhere he goes, and no sane town would ever permit him to enter it. He should be set upon by heroes and bounty hunters constantly, and no one would be willing to do business with him if they had half a brain. That's just as dumb as the paladin being bound by strict alignment codes in the first place, especially since a wizard, cleric or druid is already distantly more mechanically powerful than a paladin, a blackguard, or a mismatched paladin-blackguard buddy cop duo who've overcome their differences to fight the wizard, cleric or druid menace, and they don't suffer under the same heap of roleplaying restrictions. Not to mention that "send enemies after one player as punishment!" punishes the rest of the party as much as it does the blackguard. Plus, any decent blackguard player upon being denied entry to the town will leverage their massive Intimidate bonus to just Darth Vader their way in there. And this is something you should embrace.
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Aug 21, 2010 14:04
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SlimGoodbody posted:It seems to me like the drawbacks for the chaotic evil madman would be more social than statistical. He may be able to multiclass freely, but his reputation as a bloodthirsty monster should precede him everywhere he goes, and no sane town would ever permit him to enter it. He should be set upon by heroes and bounty hunters constantly, and no one would be willing to do business with him if they had half a brain. I think this would depend on how overtly evil the blackguard acted. Honestly, someone who attracts legions of assassins far more likely to be killed by his party members than anything else. A group that's playing an evil campaign doesn't want their cover blown by some idiot who can't resist killing puppies and draws the wrath of the countryside on them, and a good/neutral party won't want to associate with him on principle on top of that. Plus, he'll probably have a hefty bounty on his dead and no rational adventuring party can turn down a large sum of gold. Android Blues posted:Plus, any decent blackguard player upon being denied entry to the town will leverage their massive Intimidate bonus to just Darth Vader their way in there. And this is something you should embrace. Or Diplomacy. Nothing looks more awesome behind an evil overlord than legions of fanatical followers! 
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Aug 21, 2010 15:14
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Nuns with Guns posted:Or Diplomacy. Nothing looks more awesome behind an evil overlord than legions of fanatical followers! What about a column of tanks?
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Aug 21, 2010 15:43
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Cabbit posted:What about a column of tanks? Tanks can be driven by fanatical followers! Or if we're going this route we might as well construct some giant mechanical crabs to overrun a town with.
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Aug 21, 2010 15:52
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My Lovely Horse posted:Looks like it's just the same in current 4E, though, look at how almost every D&D forum is up in arms about what the radically new way Magic Missile works implies for every other mechanic in the game (whereas, say, my approach was "haha no we're keeping the old Magic Missile"). Not to get off topic, but would you mind giving me a quick rundown on this? I have extensive 3.5 experience, but only a passing familiarity with 4e, and I'm kinda curious about this magic missle drama.
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Aug 21, 2010 16:56
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Old magic missile: Roll to hit vs. a defense! Deal damage based on a die roll! New magic missile: Choose a dude! He takes two damage!
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Aug 21, 2010 17:09
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Pretty much! But since 4E has a lot of effects that specifically key off rolling for an attack or damage, people are/were debating a whole lot about whether those still apply to what is basically a Wizard's standard attack, whether it's fair if they don't, and also whether changing the way a power works not for mechanical reasons, but to restore the familiar flavour (like the errata said) was justified in the first place. But to be honest I didn't actually follow every argument, I just noticed a whole lot of threads about Magic Missile on the official Wizards forums and elsewhere round the time the errata came out.
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Aug 21, 2010 17:15
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Mystic Mongol posted:Old magic missile: That's pretty similar to old magic missile, aside from doing very little damage.
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Aug 21, 2010 17:52
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Pope Guilty posted:That's pretty similar to old magic missile, aside from doing very little damage.
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Aug 21, 2010 18:23
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Android Blues posted:That's just as dumb as the paladin being bound by strict alignment codes in the first place, especially since a wizard, cleric or druid is already distantly more mechanically powerful than a paladin, a blackguard, or a mismatched paladin-blackguard buddy cop duo who've overcome their differences to fight the wizard, cleric or druid menace, and they don't suffer under the same heap of roleplaying restrictions. Not to mention that "send enemies after one player as punishment!" punishes the rest of the party as much as it does the blackguard. I wasn't saying that every blackguard should be treated like that, just the "madmen." The guys who think that being Chaotic Evil means they get to be shitplayers who act like they're in Grand Theft Auto. I think roleplaying restrictions are perfectly fine for someone who rapes and murders every NPC they come across.
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Aug 21, 2010 20:10
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SlimGoodbody posted:I wasn't saying that every blackguard should be treated like that, just the "madmen." The guys who think that being Chaotic Evil means they get to be shitplayers who act like they're in Grand Theft Auto. I think roleplaying restrictions are perfectly fine for someone who rapes and murders every NPC they come across. Do you seriously play with people like that? If anyone in my group tried to pull that we'd all say "What the gently caress is wrong with you dude?" and if he kept it up we'd likely ostracize him from the group. I guess you're saying that's what the ingame repercussions should be, but I can't think of any type of player that I'd actually enjoy playing with being the type to play a character like that.
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Aug 22, 2010 03:59
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Brannock posted:Do you seriously play with people like that? If anyone in my group tried to pull that we'd all say "What the gently caress is wrong with you dude?" and if he kept it up we'd likely ostracize him from the group. You see play like that at conventions a lot, especially in modern / crime RPGs. Some real-world shitposter joins in, and he takes the disadvantage sociopath, and occasionally they interrupt the mafia business by declaring that they're taking some random waitress into a basement and brutally murdering them. Very annoying, not much you can do.
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Aug 22, 2010 08:23
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Mystic Mongol posted:You see play like that at conventions a lot, especially in modern / crime RPGs. Some real-world shitposter joins in, and he takes the disadvantage sociopath, and occasionally they interrupt the mafia business by declaring that they're taking some random waitress into a basement and brutally murdering them. Very annoying, not much you can do. Well beyond PVP, which I would allow in this case, so the group turns his swiss cheese corpse to a crooked cop contact, who deflects suspicion that he is on the take from the higher ups. Player ejected, plot advanced, game goes on.
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Aug 22, 2010 13:40
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Mystic Mongol posted:You see play like that at conventions a lot, especially in modern / crime RPGs. Some real-world shitposter joins in, and he takes the disadvantage sociopath, and occasionally they interrupt the mafia business by declaring that they're taking some random waitress into a basement and brutally murdering them. Very annoying, not much you can do. "The Don's burly henchman suddenly pipes up, 'Hey! Dat was my goilfriend!' He pulls out a Tommygun. Try rolling for diplomacy... Oh, a sociopath, you say? Tough luck, you take 100 damage."
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Aug 22, 2010 14:00
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"But that's what my CHARACTER would do!"
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Aug 22, 2010 14:33
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Umbra Dubium posted:"The Don's burly henchman suddenly pipes up, 'Hey! Dat was my goilfriend!' He pulls out a Tommygun. Try rolling for diplomacy... Oh, a sociopath, you say? Tough luck, you take 100 damage." Sociopaths are often extremely charismatic!
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Aug 22, 2010 15:13
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Android Blues posted:Sociopaths are often extremely charismatic! I thought psychopaths were the charismatic ones? Sociopaths are characterised by being impulsive, aggressive, and unable to display empathy, which I thought would preclude the ability to attempt diplomacy, even if they might appear charismatic at first glance.
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Aug 22, 2010 15:21
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Umbra Dubium posted:I thought psychopaths were the charismatic ones? Yeah but sociopaths typically learn at a very young age to act like they assume other people want them to. By the time they're adults they've usually had 15-20 years experience constantly pretending to be who the person they're talking to want them to be.
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Aug 22, 2010 17:31
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Let me fill you in on sociopaths with tidbits I gleaned from the hit HBO show, Dexter,
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Aug 22, 2010 17:58
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Neito posted:"But that's what my CHARACTER would do!" This is why I've always found it best to say, "Alright, fine, whatever, so back at the loading dock I'm going to give the foreman a really nice purse for his girlfriend and ask when his men are going on break." It's going to be a short game no matter what and let's spend that time pretending to be mafioso instead of arguing about whether or not he gets away with his purile crimes.
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Aug 22, 2010 18:16
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Brannock posted:Let me fill you in on sociopaths with tidbits I gleaned from the hit HBO show, Dexter, I think the realm of pop psychology is fairly acceptable for goofy roleplaying games! But even beyond that, sociopaths are often skilled liars and manipulators in like, real psychological thought. Dexter is obviously sensationalised, but it is based off something actual.
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Aug 22, 2010 20:52
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Brannock posted:Let me fill you in on sociopaths with tidbits I gleaned from the hit HBO show, Dexter, If I may chime in, the whole notion of the charming sociopath can be fairly accurate, as I sadly know first-hand (not that I'm a sociopath, but I did have a weird "friendship" with one for a while, before I found out)
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Aug 23, 2010 17:06
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Brannock posted:Let me fill you in on sociopaths with tidbits I gleaned from the hit HBO show, Dexter, Heh, look at this nub. Not knowing anything about Showtime. Hows it feel to get hit with a +5 post of owning?
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Aug 23, 2010 18:02
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