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Rusty Shackelford posted:Sheamus is from Ireland which is not part of the UK. Well okay, European. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN  Edit: Northern Ireland is. Granted that's not the part Sheamus is from, but still.
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Aug 24, 2010 08:18
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SamuraiFoochs posted:Well okay, European. Ok, but off the top of my head, I can think of other Europeans who had title matches - Davey Boy Smith & Andre the Giant. I think the match I can think of is the 1992 Royal Rumble that had both Davey Boy and Nikolai Volkoff (born in Croatia).
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Aug 24, 2010 08:21
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Rusty Shackelford posted:Ok, but off the top of my head, I can think of other Europeans who had title matches - Davey Boy Smith & Andre the Giant. But were they both top contenders simultaneously?
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Aug 24, 2010 08:22
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Rusty Shackelford posted:Ok, but off the top of my head, I can think of other Europeans who had title matches - Davey Boy Smith & Andre the Giant. Yeah, but two in the same World title match? I don't think that's ever happened. e:f,b
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Aug 24, 2010 08:22
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SamuraiFoochs posted:But were they both top contenders simultaneously? I know. That was the reason for the question.
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Aug 24, 2010 08:23
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MassRayPer posted:Considering I've seen more Danielson matches than anyone else in this forum I think I can make the comparison sober. You're comparing a guy who is widely considered to be the best technical wrestler on the planet to a guy who is berated with "You can't wrestle" chants whenever a crowd is filled with non-marks. Bryan Danielson will sell getting his leg worked on for the entire match. He will grab at his knee, run the ropes gingerly, ascend the turnbuckle slowly, buckle down to a knee after a suplex attempt, and will react more widly if a leg submission is put on. John Cena forgets that he has been getting beat up by several people for 10 minutes, has taken multiple finishers, and springs to his feet to hit his offense, without even spending half a second to visibly sell any of the offense he has taken to that point. He completely no sells his opponent's entire offense once he has to hit his own. Every thread that involves a Cena match ends up turning into groaning about "Super Cena" and you are claiming he is on Bryan Danielson's level of selling an injury? You may have watched every Danielson match of all-time, but I doubt you appreciated Danielson's subtle nuances if you think Cena does as good of a job. Shadalator fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Aug 24, 2010 |
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Aug 24, 2010 08:23
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Shadalator posted:You're comparing a guy who is widely considered to be the best technical wrestler on the planet to a guy who is berated with "You can't wrestle" chants whenever a crowd is filled with informed fans. Every wrestler should sell everything exactly the same because everything affects everyone equally and to the same degree. Different body types, characters, and styles should not be considered. There is only way to sell, and Dragon is its prophet.
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Aug 24, 2010 08:27
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Shadalator posted:You're comparing a guy who is widely considered to be the best technical wrestler on the planet to a guy who is berated with "You can't wrestle" chants whenever a crowd is filled with informed fans. No, I said they do the same thing. When the time comes to make that comeback, THEY DON'T LET SELLING GET IN THE WAY OF THE MATCH. At GBH V N2 Danielson stopped selling the arm during his big comeback. He had sold the poo poo out of it the entire match, but stopped here. Because his comeback had to be as bombastic as possible. This match is one of the best examples of Danielson selling his rear end (arm) off, and even here he does the same thing people accuse Cena of. Does he do it to a lesser extent? Yes, but he's also in a much smaller arena where you don't need to play to people hundreds of feet away.
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Aug 24, 2010 08:27
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Shadalator posted:You may have watched every Danielson match of all-time, but I doubt you appreciated Danielson's subtle nuances if you think Cena does as good of a job. Hah, I just noticed this edit. "You obviously can't appreciate fake fighting like I appreciate fake fighting.  ." And Cena gets "You can't wrestle" chants in places not full of "informed" people, but in buildings full of smarks who don't know how to enjoy anything. They are not superior, intelligent fans because they can't enjoy a John Cena match. They're just loving annoying.
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Aug 24, 2010 08:32
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I don't even like pro wrestling that much anymore, especially the in-ring work. The WWE style is cookie cutter and paint by numbers, I know I'm not the only one who can call every spot seconds before it happens. All I was saying is that Cena isn't 1/10th of the technician that Danielson is. I don't see how people are arguing that fact. It's like saying WWE Raw has better quality matches than the Ring of Honor ppv's.
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Aug 24, 2010 08:36
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Shadalator posted:I don't even like pro wrestling that much anymore, especially the in-ring work. The WWE style is cookie cutter and paint by numbers, I know I'm not the only one who can call every spot seconds before it happens. Being a technician and being a good worker are COMPLETELY loving different.
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Aug 24, 2010 08:37
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Shadalator posted:I don't even like pro wrestling that much anymore, especially the in-ring work. The WWE style is cookie cutter and paint by numbers, I know I'm not the only one who can call every spot seconds before it happens. Being a technician isn't the only definition of "good worker." Cena is not a technician, by any stretch; doesn't mean he's not a good worker. And you don't enjoy wrestling anymore, especially WWE? I'm shocked.
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Aug 24, 2010 08:38
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SamuraiFoochs posted:Being a technician and being a good worker are COMPLETELY loving different. I'm just talking in-ring ability. Call it what you want, no reason to splits hairs over a word. Shadalator fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Aug 24, 2010 |
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Aug 24, 2010 08:39
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Shadalator posted:I'm just talking in-ring ability. Call it what you want, no reason to split hairs over a word. That's what I'm saying though. Cena has plenty of in-ring ability, people just don't give him credit for it. He's no Danielson but he's a very solid worker.
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Aug 24, 2010 08:42
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Shadalator posted:I'm just talking in-ring ability. Call it what you want, no reason to splits hairs over a word. It doesn't even matter since you are just setting up a strawman anyway. I never compared Danielson and Cena overall, but instead in one aspect of selling.
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Aug 24, 2010 08:46
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Arguments about Cena with people who hate the current product and probably barely watch it are always horrible, because nothing quite embodies current WWE style like Cena. He becomes a surrogate for WWE as a whole, so if you hate it, you hate him by association. Also, it probably doesn't hurt that Cena has consistently improved year over year, and if you haven't been paying attention, you probably think he's much worse than he actually is now.
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Aug 24, 2010 08:53
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I don't see what dislike of the "current product" has to do with liking Cena's work. I think WWE booking has mostly blown goats for a long time now, but have thought Cena is an excellent worker and one of the best in-ring guys in the company since 2006-ish.
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Aug 24, 2010 08:56
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El Duke posted:Arguments about Cena with people who hate the current product and probably barely watch it are always horrible, because nothing quite embodies current WWE style like Cena. He becomes a surrogate for WWE as a whole, so if you hate it, you hate him by association. Also, it probably doesn't hurt that Cena has consistently improved year over year, and if you haven't been paying attention, you probably think he's much worse than he actually is now. The other thing is it is WWE really can't be compared to anything because they just sort of are what they are. It just sort of exists in its own universe and does what it does because it is successful at it. When I first saw Wade Barrett's finisher I thought "Uh, so his finisher is a fireman's carry slam? Really?" I've seen it used as a nothing move for so long, hell I remember people saying how weak Delirious' version of the move looks and he just uses it to set up a ground attack. But in the end, no one in WWE has used that move in a long time. He's used it for months and gotten better at performing it. So now it is a valid finisher and I don't think twice seeing it. Same with Cena. In WWE it has always been valid to have comebacks be even more superman like, so it doesn't bother me, especially since any wrestler is going to do the same basic thing.
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Aug 24, 2010 08:58
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jeffersonlives posted:I don't see what dislike of the "current product" has to do with liking Cena's work. I think WWE booking has mostly blown goats for a long time now, but have thought Cena is an excellent worker and one of the best workers in the company since 2006-ish. I'm not saying if you hate current WWE you naturally hate Cena; but if you hate WWE Style (which he was referring to) you'll hate Cena. And also, there are a lot of people who dropped off around 2005 who hate Cena because they saw him at one of the worst times in his career. And also, like Fooch was saying, a lot of people seem to equate PG = Cena and just hate him for that.
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Aug 24, 2010 08:59
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El Duke posted:Arguments about Cena with people who hate the current product and probably barely watch it are always horrible, because nothing quite embodies current WWE style like Cena. He becomes a surrogate for WWE as a whole, so if you hate it, you hate him by association. Also, it probably doesn't hurt that Cena has consistently improved year over year, and if you haven't been paying attention, you probably think he's much worse than he actually is now. This. Before his pec injury in 2007, he deserved those boos. He didn't sell, every match had the same finish and it was dreadful. Since coming back from that, his ring work has been improving steadily. He ain't great but the people who still boo him constantly are still stuck in 2006.
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Aug 24, 2010 09:03
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Ziggy Tsardust posted:This. Before his pec injury in 2007, he deserved those boos. He didn't sell, every match had the same finish and it was dreadful. Since coming back from that, his ring work has been improving steadily. He ain't great but the people who still boo him constantly are still stuck in 2006. Before that injury we also had the Umaga match, the HBK matches and the Edge matches.
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Aug 24, 2010 09:05
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Last post, because my opinion seems to be probatable around here. The people who pay to see John Cena, pay money to go see John Cena. The people who pay to see Bryan Danielson, pay money to see Bryan Danielson wrestle. Let's face facts, Cena couldn't put on a 5 star classic with all his Make-A-Wish kids lives on the line. Meanwhile, Bryan Danielson is only employed because he has a loooong history of matches proving that he can. They are employed for completely different reasons. If you put Danielson in Cena's position he would fail because he isn't the charismatic figure or talker that Cena is. Meanwhile if you put Cena in the main event of a Ring of Honor show, he'd get booed out of the building since he can't work for poo poo. Shadalator fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Aug 24, 2010 |
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Aug 24, 2010 09:14
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Shadalator posted:Last post, because my opinion seems to be probatable around here. Danielson is charismatic, he doesn't look it but the guy can talk. As well as Cena can at the moment.
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Aug 24, 2010 09:29
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Shadalator posted:Meanwhile if you put Cena in the main event of a Ring of Honor show, he'd get booed, and he'd milk those boos and feed off their hatred to make the match memorable. Fixed for what would really happen. John Cena is a good worker not because he knows 700 holds, but because he knows how to get the crowd into his work and make it memorable. ONS06 is where I point to John Cena's abilities as a worker. Through that entire match, he responded to the crowd. He did his shirt throw to the crowd, they threw it back. He threw it back, playing it up as not believing everyone in the arena hated him. The match dragged on, and you start to see Cena get stand-offish with the crowd. He went for the Five Knuckle Shuffle and heeled it up cause it was the epitome of what was hated by the hardcore ECW fans. The crowd chanted same old poo poo at one of his five moves of doom. He busts out a double axe handle to the floor - nothing too flashy to get a holy poo poo, but still not something he typically did, just to screw with the crowd. If I remember the match right, he actually got boos as he hit it, where as anyone else in any other environment would have at least got a pop for the risk. Compare to how others have responded to a hostile crowd: Shannon Moore killed his new-ECW push by mouthing off to the crowd. Batista just got bitchy and pouty and is probably one of the reasons WWE stopped running Hammerstein and it's ilk. A good worker is something who at any level and any size of the crowd will get the crowd into the match at some level. This is the same for the comedy match in front of 24 in Chikara, for the technical wrestling masterpiece in front of ROHbots, or main eventing Wrestlemania.
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Aug 24, 2010 11:49
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Shadalator posted:Let's face facts, Cena couldn't put on a 5 star classic with all his Make-A-Wish kids lives on the line. I'm no Meltzer and maybe I'm over generous, but the HBK match from England was 5 stars for me. Really though, you're holding WWE wrestling to a completely different standard than you should. They're the entertainers. Complaining about the lack of 5-star matches is like complaining that Subway makes a lovely Big Mac.
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Aug 24, 2010 12:39
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Shadalator posted:
Stars are not tangible or objective. The reason he couldn't get a five star match is because Meltzer prefers the Japanese stuff.
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Aug 24, 2010 12:48
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MassRayPer posted:Cena has also had a shorter career and it has been less intense for the last few years, where from WM 18 through WM 23 HHH was Hitler. Now he's more like Mussolini, or a lesser dictator, still hated but sometimes forgotten. Cena has always been a bit more mixed, a lot of hatred, but some love too, especially after 2007. quote:
Coaaab fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Aug 24, 2010 |
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Aug 24, 2010 13:03
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Fucken_Gieux posted:Stars are not tangible or objective. The reason he couldn't get a five star match is because Meltzer prefers the Japanese stuff. Aside from his matches with HBK, one of the greatest wrestlers ever, please say what matches Cena has had that deserve five stars.
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Aug 24, 2010 13:31
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WeaselWeaz posted:Aside from his matches with HBK, one of the greatest wrestlers ever, please say what matches Cena has had that deserve five stars. Here's a list of current WWE Employees who have had a five star match, according to Dave Meltzer: CM Punk Undertaker Cena isn't part of a two person club. Oh no?
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Aug 24, 2010 13:46
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WeaselWeaz posted:Aside from his matches with HBK, one of the greatest wrestlers ever, please say what matches Cena has had that deserve five stars. I thought the tlc match against edge in toronto was pretty poo poo hot.
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Aug 24, 2010 14:15
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Endorph posted:http://www.associatepublisher.com/e/l/li/list_of_dave_meltzer%27s_five_star_matches.htm You forgot Goldust.
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Aug 24, 2010 14:23
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WeaselWeaz posted:Aside from his matches with HBK, one of the greatest wrestlers ever, please say what matches Cena has had that deserve five stars. Personally, none of them were all that hot with me. Maybe the iron man with Orton, though someone may complain about the "death by rest hold". Does not defeat my point.
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Aug 24, 2010 14:27
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Had the Barrett/Sheamus match not been hosed with, would that have represented the first time a championship match would have been from two people outside of North America?
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Aug 24, 2010 15:06
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Shadalator posted:If you are really comparing John Cena's selling to American Dragon's then you're high. Bryan's not exactly Bourne or RVD when it comes to selling. In fact, selling is probably his weakest point.
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Aug 24, 2010 16:04
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Writer Cath posted:Had the Barrett/Sheamus match not been hosed with, would that have represented the first time a championship match would have been from two people outside of North America? I can pretty confidently say yes.
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Aug 24, 2010 16:05
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Shadalator posted:If you are really comparing John Cena's selling to American Dragon's then you're high. You can win every argument like that, but it doesn't make you right. 
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Aug 24, 2010 16:07
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This discussion has helped me learn some valuable things: - I didn't realize the irony of a crowd previously enjoying Dudley Boys matches, Tommy Dreamer matches and various other limited brawlers from the ECW era decide to shout at John Cena, a wrestler who has only been around at that point for less than five years, "Same old poo poo!" - Most fans likely grew up thinking that when a commentator said someone had good technical ability, it was a kayfabe way of saying they were a good worker. - The five star match that John Cena is capable of having is not a five star match that a lot of fans today would understand Truth is, I personally feel Rock vs. Austin from Wrestlemania X-7 is the pinnacle of the WWE style and was a five star match to me due to the story entangled with it. John Cena could have that sort of match. It doesn't matter if Dave Meltzer snowflakes it or not. He once masturbated so hard to a Steamboat/Flair house show he ran back to Prodigy forums to give it ******.
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Aug 24, 2010 16:23
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I think John Cena is OK in the ring, but he's generally only as good as his opponent and no better, which isn't really the mark of a "great" wrestler. The problem with the DDT on the cement isn't that he recovered, it's that it bookended the recovery, which is really just a match structure problem. Also, sometimes properly selling a huge beatdown involves not doing a telegraphed series of moves to end a match. quote:Truth is, I personally feel Rock vs. Austin from Wrestlemania X-7 is the pinnacle of the WWE style and was a five star match to me due to the story entangled with it. John Cena could have that sort of match. It doesn't matter if Dave Meltzer snowflakes it or not. Night of Champions '08 is probably Cena's best WWE-style match, and furthermore is better than his colossally overrated series with HBK.
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Aug 24, 2010 16:50
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Night of Champions '08 is probably Cena's best WWE-style match, and furthermore is better than his colossally overrated series with HBK. Triple H vs. Cena? I don't know if I saw NOC'08. For me it's John Cena vs. Edge in a Last Man Standing match. I thought it got overshadowed by Taker/HBK but it was still a loving fantastic match. Maybe that's not what you were going for by saying WWE-Style match, but that's my favourite Cena match.
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Aug 24, 2010 17:16
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I just want to say that I hated Triple H with the fire of a thousand suns. I'd never disliked a wrestler more. Then Sheamus got pushed and I found out it was because Triple H went to bat for him. I now only hate Triple H with the fire of a single sun.
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