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Is there a code legal way to convert old 2 prong outlets to 3 prong without running all new wiring? I haven't seen the circuits yet (visiting my grandma this weekend), but I assume there is no ground wire present. Are cheater plugs a bad idea? I think what prompted this is her getting a new toaster that has a ground plug.
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Aug 30, 2010 00:49
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Hillridge posted:Is there a code legal way to convert old 2 prong outlets to 3 prong without running all new wiring? I haven't seen the circuits yet (visiting my grandma this weekend), but I assume there is no ground wire present. Are cheater plugs a bad idea? I think what prompted this is her getting a new toaster that has a ground plug. The code legal way is to install a GFCI receptacle, which won't ground the plug, but will prevent a lethal electric shock of the appliance faults. All outlets fed from the GFCI are protected by it, too, and can be replaced with 3-prong outlets. You must label them all "GFCI PROTECTED" and "UNGROUNDED"
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Aug 30, 2010 00:56
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Ah ok, that makes sense. GFCI do the sensing between hot and neutral, ignoring ground, right? So if the amount of current in the hot leg is greater than the amount in the neutral leg, the GFCI will assume some is returning to ground via an unwanted path and pop open the circuit. Can I use any GFCI, or is there one specifically for this application? For labeling can I use a P-touch label stuck to the wall by the outlet?
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Aug 30, 2010 03:37
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I think the gfcis come with the necessary labels
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Aug 30, 2010 04:40
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dyne posted:I think the gfcis come with the necessary labels They do. Hillridge posted:Can I use any GFCI, or is there one specifically for this application? Get a tamper resistant GFCI, since tamper resistant receptacles are code now. If your wall boxes are so shallow that you can't cram in a GFCI receptacle, you could get GFCI breakers. I'd go for the receptacles first though, since the breakers cost 3-4 times as much. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Aug 30, 2010 |
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Aug 30, 2010 05:35
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Hillridge posted:Ah ok, that makes sense. GFCI do the sensing between hot and neutral, ignoring ground, right? So if the amount of current in the hot leg is greater than the amount in the neutral leg, the GFCI will assume some is returning to ground via an unwanted path and pop open the circuit. Kid sinister is right, the 2008 code requires all outlets to be tamper-resistant, but may or may not be the code revision in your area. Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about tamper-resistant outlets if your house is full of ungrounded 2-prong outlets, but you don't want to be failed on inspection for something like this. grover fucked around with this message at 10:54 on Aug 30, 2010 |
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Aug 30, 2010 10:51
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I'm replacing a light fixture in the bathroom. It's mounted on the wall above the mirror. When I took it out, the fixture itself had a strain relief and the wire was just sticking out of the wall. The new fixture requires a circular junction box. I was thinking of just throwing an "old-work" circular box in. I picked one up and it has three tab that attach it to the sheet-rock. Will the be able to hold the weight of the fixture? It's a 3-bulb fixture and each has a canister-type glass thing on it. I don't want it to fall off and cause a big mess.
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Aug 31, 2010 03:03
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NickNails posted:I'm replacing a light fixture in the bathroom. It's mounted on the wall above the mirror. When I took it out, the fixture itself had a strain relief and the wire was just sticking out of the wall. The new fixture requires a circular junction box. I was thinking of just throwing an "old-work" circular box in. I picked one up and it has three tab that attach it to the sheet-rock. Will the be able to hold the weight of the fixture? It's a 3-bulb fixture and each has a canister-type glass thing on it. I don't want it to fall off and cause a big mess. Old work fan box (the one with the brace) would be able to bear weight; I'd go with that. Or you can cut back the drywall to the two nearest studs and attach a box to a stud.
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Aug 31, 2010 03:43
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Hillridge posted:Is there a code legal way to convert old 2 prong outlets to 3 prong without running all new wiring? I haven't seen the circuits yet (visiting my grandma this weekend), but I assume there is no ground wire present. Are cheater plugs a bad idea? I think what prompted this is her getting a new toaster that has a ground plug. This gets asked often enough that I put the response in the OP.
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Aug 31, 2010 04:38
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Good idea. I thought I had seen that question asked before, but couldn't remember the answer.
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Aug 31, 2010 19:06
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Seconding the good idea, but put some section headers up in the OP, it really looks like you really like the Enter key otherwise.
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Aug 31, 2010 20:31
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I am trying to install a new phone jack. I have the phone wire ready to go (24AWG Cat5E UTP), I just don't know how to connect it to the NID on the side of my house. I took the attached terrible photo of the inside of our NID. I have no idea where to begin! My box doesn't really look like any of the diagrams I have found online. On my RJ-25 connector, I have wired as follows: 1 white/green 2 white/orange 3 blue 4 white/blue 5 orange 6 green There are brown and white/brown wires in the cat5 cable as well, but these are unused? edit: I ended up connecting blue to red and white/blue to green. I hope that was correct? Phone service here doesn't get connected for another week. And I don't even have a land-line phone, anyway :p. other people fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Sep 2, 2010 |
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Sep 2, 2010 21:08
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Associate Christ
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Kaluza-Klein posted:I am trying to install a new phone jack. I have the phone wire ready to go (24AWG Cat5E UTP), I just don't know how to connect it to the NID on the side of my house. Blue/white on the top, blue on the bottom where that orange wire is tied in should give you dialtone.
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Sep 2, 2010 23:04
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Phone guy chiming in. That's correct. You don't need any other pairs but the one you have in the very center of your connector (in your case blue and blue) if you will only have one line. A cat5 cable can carry 4 analog phone lines simultaneously, though most analog phones only accept two lines per RJ connector. Brown is inapplicable here because your type of connector can only accept 3 pairs. This is OK as phones can only really take 2 lines per connector. Were you planning to have a second line you'd wire it up at the NID/Demarc as orange and it would run side by side with your first line on blue. Most homes, at least back when people cared about home phone lines, are wired up with every jack in the home having two pairs hooked up this way. This allows you to access either of your two lines from any jack in the house using a handy dandy L1/L2 adapter, or a two line phone.
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Sep 3, 2010 21:33
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Woooo, passed rough-in today. I completely rewired my 1930s 1200 sq ft house in the past few months; the only existing wiring being used is some oldish NM cable I re-used. I now have a total of 16 circuits and also ran quad shield RG6 and cat5e to every room. I used 750' of 14-2, 250' of 14-3', and 350' of 12-2. Prior to this I had 5 circuits, none of the outlets were grounded, half of the outlets didn't work, and the bedrooms and bathroom did not have light switches. In addition, none of the outlets or light switches were at the same height. The inspector told me I did an extraordinary job and it was better than a lot of professional jobs he's seen. He came in telling me not to be offended because home owners doing their own work usually had a lot of issues and he'd walk me through what's wrong, and left saying that he had to eat his words  .edit: I just estimated the cost of all the materials (including fixtures) to be about $1550. Yeesh. dyne fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Sep 7, 2010 |
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Sep 7, 2010 22:55
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I'm renting an old house. This old house does not have a lot of grounded outlets. There are a few in the kitchen, but that's about it. Many of the three prong outlets in this house are not grounded. The junction boxes they are in are not grounded. There are a few near some cold water pipes that would probably be easy to ground to those pipes, but I'd have to remove the wall paneling to get at theem. I'd have to rip this paneling out. Since I'm renting, I don't think my landlord would appreciate this. Right now I'm running my computer off a heavy duty extension cord that leads to the kitchen. Nasty kludge but at least my surge protector is grounded. Considering that I likely can't remove the wall paneling, is there anything I can do to ground some of these outlets? EDIT: Some of these pipes are external. Could I attach a wire to a pipe and attach the other end to the outlet's grounding screw? That's a bit kludgy in of itself, but would it work (be safe)? Landerig fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Sep 8, 2010 |
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Sep 8, 2010 01:10
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I imagine you could use the grounding tab of a 3 prong adapter and connect it to a cable running to ground for a technically functional ground..but it just seems like a terrible mess (and may violate something one of the actual electricians in here knows about). Is there any way you can request the landlord install a few more outlets for you? It seems you could make the point of safety and liability. When you're having to run small appliances/electronics off of extension cords to reach properly grounded outlets you're somewhat increasing your risk of shorting/arcing/fires/issues with the additional unprotected cords running all over the place anyway. Slim but perhaps you can pitch it this way? Or move. 50% a comedy option because I obviously dont know the reasons behind you living there and maybe you adore the old place..but a really well done electrical job you never have to worry much about is a wonderful thing. To the licensed/code guys in the thread: Am I irrational in my fear of older electrical jobs? A portion of the reason I live in a fairly new home is because of how many times I saw things go frighteningly wrong in older places I've been at. Turning on a lamp causes a flash and a bang at the breaker panel? No thank you. I cant believe some of my friends' places havent burnt down. I'm always one for a DIY project and have done a good bit of (98% to code) electrical work in my new home but a good portion of this older stuff on past/friends homes I seriously won't touch because it scares the heck out of me. chedemefedeme fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Sep 8, 2010 |
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Sep 8, 2010 05:04
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I'm still moving into this house. The reason I chose this house is the low rent and the location. Oh I will be telling the landlord, especially since plugging in one outlet made the GFCI outlet across from it trip. Too many things I own need an equipment ground to function right. I need some way to ground a few outlets.
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Sep 8, 2010 13:25
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Landerig posted:I'm still moving into this house. The reason I chose this house is the low rent and the location. It is code-legal to retrofit a separate ground wire, but it must be securely grounded back to the main ground bond to be effective.
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Sep 8, 2010 13:33
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It turns out that even though most of my grandmother's outlets are two prong, the wire that was run to them included a bare ground, although it seemed to be smaller than the other conductors. Was this normal 40-50 years ago? I just wired in a new 3 prong like normal, with no need for a GFCI. I also had to fix another 3 prong that was put in when she had a sun room built a few years ago because the electrician had swapped hot and neutral. The outlet was grounded, but only because the metal box was grounded and the outlet was screwed into it. Is this legal, or should it have an actual ground wire as well?
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Sep 8, 2010 14:47
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Hillridge posted:It turns out that even though most of my grandmother's outlets are two prong, the wire that was run to them included a bare ground, although it seemed to be smaller than the other conductors. Was this normal 40-50 years ago? I just wired in a new 3 prong like normal, with no need for a GFCI. I also had to fix another 3 prong that was put in when she had a sun room built a few years ago because the electrician had swapped hot and neutral. The outlet was grounded, but only because the metal box was grounded and the outlet was screwed into it. Is this legal, or should it have an actual ground wire as well? Receptacles can be listed to be grounded through the mounting screw- they typically have a small wire running along one screw. If this receptacle is listed for this then, legally, it's OK. Rather like "legally", you can use the rear stabs. But you don't want to do it! Use the screw terminal instead.
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Sep 8, 2010 14:58
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grover posted:A GFCI outlet can protect many downstream outlets. Is the outlet you plugged into on the same circuit, or did it continue to work after the GFCI tripped? Is so, they're likely improperly sharing a neutral. I think its on the same circuit as both outlets went dead after the GFCI tripped. They went dead the second I plugged the microwave in. The outlet across from it was the one I had my computer extension cord plugged into. I've since moved it to another outlet. My idea was that since some of the piping is external, I could attach a ground wire to it, run it along the wall and into the outlet box, attaching it to the ground screw. My guess is that this isn't code legal, but I don't see a way of fishing wires through those walls without ripping the paneling out. At least it's not as stupid of an idea as a ground/neutral short. It really sucks as I have the tools, the know how, and hell I even have a roll of new NM cable. EDIT: Some good news: My landlord seemed just as surprised as me upon learning of the grounding, or lack thereof issue. He said he's going to look into some things for me. Landerig fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Sep 9, 2010 |
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Sep 8, 2010 18:10
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Good deal on the landlord. I love seeing shiny new grounded outlets in old construction ^_^. Speaking of the stabs vs screw terminals... why the heck do the stabs even still get put on these things? The only lame thing the guys who wired my new home did was use the stabs about 50% of the time on switches. What the heck?! Literally like in the stab on one side out the screw on the other in some cases. Whyyy. Screw terminals are easier to work with and just feel way more certain in their connection. Is the only reason for stabs lazy electricians who want to go quicker? If so there have been other seemingly smaller things purged by recent code and yet these still exist? Are there any cases of them causing safety/connectivity issues? But maybe they're just fine and its all personal preference. I'm vastly partial to a solid screw terminal. I just hear them talked down a lot and never cared for them.
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Sep 9, 2010 06:25
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Stab terminals are UL tested and code legal and very easy to install, but are unfortunately prone to problems and you'll spend more time troubleshooting than you saved.
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Sep 9, 2010 10:13
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grover posted:Stab terminals are UL tested and code legal and very easy to install, but are unfortunately prone to problems and you'll spend more time troubleshooting than you saved. Not to mention a PITA if you're using 12 gauge wire and 15 amp outlets/switches. I believe, but I'm not positive, that you can use 15 amp outlets/switches on a 20 amp circuit as long as it's not a dedicated circuit. At least, at one time I think it was legal. My NEC knowledge is rusty. Had to swap my garbage disposal switch the other day (the breaker it's on is for the entire dining room, dishwasher, and disposal). 12 gauge wiring at the switch box, 15 amp outlet under the sink for the disposal, old switch was 15 amp with the 12 gauge forced into the backstabs. I used the screws on the new switch.
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Sep 12, 2010 04:59
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I'm looking to add a new in wall light fixture. The house is an 80 year old boarding house fully rewired about 5 years ago to R3 heavy residential code. I've replaced switches and fixtures in the past but I've never run any new wiring. I want to run this fixture to a preexisting switch on a different floor and could potentially run it the whole way through partially finished utility rooms. Is it up to code to staple romex to the lathe and plaster or would I need conduit to do this? Is it easier to just drill a few extra holes in the walls and fish it about 15 feet? There isn't an exposed attic or basement to run through so I may have to tear into the walls to go through studs. I'd like to cut as few holes in the walls as possible. These utility rooms have a combination of dry wall and lathe and plaster over wood studs but the walls are covered in old disused electrical conduit, ductwork, piping, and even spraypaint in spots so appearance is pretty irrelavent. Is it necessary to get permits for a project this small? Our receptacles are also required to be fire rated. Any suggestions on the best material to seal the receptacles? Is there an in line device that I can put in to make the light blink or am I better off trying to find a fixture that does that?
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Sep 14, 2010 16:54
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3M has an extensive line of fire barrier products. We spec something like this: http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/...3beQH6W2S54F8gl
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Sep 14, 2010 18:25
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Thanks for the phone help guys! Everything is working well so far! DSL is up and phone calls can be made. The phone jack in the kitchen was cut off at the NID. I hooked it back up, but then I noticed something odd about the other connection in the NID. It is something the old owners must have done. It is a line that runs outside the house to the bedroom. I guess it is some sort of cat5 type cable (as opposed to old fashioned phone line) and the orange pair was connected to the red/green hookups on the NID (where I connected my line). I was going to completely remove it, but the blue pair of that same cat5 cable are connected to a red/green pair that disappear into the phone company only serviceable box. It is done with some strange snap connector, which you can sort of see to the right of the red connection in my original picture. Anyway, it doesn't look like I can disconnect it without cutting things or getting into that phone co. serviceable area. I guess it wouldn't hurt to cut it, but I just can't figure out what is going on there? Also, to make this post even longer, in connecting the kitchen back up I realized there are two NID's back there. One is much older and must be the home's original. All the input to the NID I was messing with seems to run to this older NID. Can anyone speculate as to why this newer NID is there? Can I skip it entirely and connect to the old one? Would you need pictures/diagrams to say so? There is only one phone line in the home right now, but the jack in the kitchen has two plugs, so maybe this has something to do with a 2nd line installation? It is hard to say, as the jacks in the kitchen were completely disconnected behind the plate!
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Sep 15, 2010 16:23
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Its improper for them to have wired directly into the telco service area without using a proper testjack block inside the nid box. This is the proper way to demarc service and I'm somewhat confused over whether I think a homeowner or a lazy telco guy did this. The reason this line isnt touching your main circuit's terminals is almost certainly because it is a separate line and circuit ID (secondary line, "different dialtone", whatever in layman's terms). Again It doesnt make too much sense that a homeowner would do it since the telco would have to activate the circuit up the line before it would function. Each line should have its own little test jack in a proper setup. Without putting a tester on the other end of the line clipped onto this supposed second circuit I can't say whether it has tone, battery or is just dead and thus disconnected somewhere further up the line. As for why your home has two nid boxes? Possibilities are: - Telco came into the area with the policy that all new lines or major reworks were to be done in new NIDs - Old nid was compromised and replacement was deemed necessary (usually water or storm surge damage) - Homeowner decided they wanted more phone lines than the original NID could handle and thus a second one was added. In this situation it is common that the old NID and its existing lines not be bothered. You most likely can not utilize anything in the old nid. A circuit ID should only terminate at one demarc in one nid on one terminal pair. This means that the most you may find in the old nid would be talk battery (power but no dial tone); a circuit de-allocated digitally at the switch but not physically disconnected up the line. Hope that all made sense. Typing fast because dinner is ready. Feel free to ask other questions. Post a picture standing back from your whole demarc/service entry area on the house if you want. Can probably judge things better that way. Edit: Fun fact. A line only exhibiting battery to a normal analog tester may actually not be de-allocated. It could be a "dry loop", meaning the switch is programmed to listen for xDSL signals but not provide tone for analog dialing. This is how some residential aDSL is delivered, some business sDSL is delivered and how service pushing the boundaries of what can be delivered over an extended copper pair (fiber to the street/curb, such as AT&T's Uverse) must be delivered. This can also be called Naked DSL. Frame relay and T1 type circuits are also generally delivered on dry loops but you virtually never see these in residential. As little as my former telco service technician contract job paid the experience gained was actually pretty nice Edit #2: Why anyone dealing with telecom, data or electricity should understand the above. Case in story: A moronic telco vendor for a company other than my own enters a shared demarc/telco room in a building where one of my clients does business. When poking around doing god knows what he discovers a circuit that is connected on the block but has no dial tone. He decides it is of no use and disconnects it, as well as stealing the bridge clip to use on his own install cause he didnt bring one. The circuit on the 66block he disconnected was branch feeding my client; an operating medical facility who's server runs a nighttime emergency medical exchange. Cue me out there till 3am with AT&T and the T1 provider and one heck of a mad MD in charge. Potential liability was huge. Telco vendor got fired and the company who's liability they were working under had to reimburse my client all their emergency repair fees. Moral of the story for all electrical/telecom field workers to understand: Don't disconnect something at the demarc just because you plug a $10 radio shack phone into it and find no dial tone. You don't know what it goes to and dial tone does NOT equal service. This single dry loop T1 circuit fed about 15 emergency call carrying phone lines into the building. chedemefedeme fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Sep 16, 2010 |
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Sep 16, 2010 00:53
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I discovered that "service without dialtone" thing after I got uverse. I had never had phone service in this house, and didn't know what runs in the house were actually active. Without dialtone, I had a heck of a time figuring whether the modem wouldn't connect because my line was chopped in the house, or because AT&T didn't properly connect service It ended up being both, so while I waited for AT&T to dispatch a tech I just traced every drop with a 9v and a multimeter.
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Sep 16, 2010 01:30
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The mulitmeter should show their energy on the line if it isnt cut even if there isnt dialtone. And..that sounds just like AT&T They're the primary LEC in these parts.
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Sep 16, 2010 04:27
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I have another 2 prong to 3 prong conversion question. A friend is moving into an old house with 2 prongs. He knows he can add a GFCI to convert to 3 prong, but he is worried about using it for computer equipment without it being grounded (things like the case building up static charge and such). Is there a simple solution to this, like a certain type of power strip or a way to safely tie gnd to neutral so the case isn't just floating?
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Sep 17, 2010 04:38
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Hillridge posted:I have another 2 prong to 3 prong conversion question. A friend is moving into an old house with 2 prongs. He knows he can add a GFCI to convert to 3 prong, but he is worried about using it for computer equipment without it being grounded (things like the case building up static charge and such). Is there a simple solution to this, like a certain type of power strip or a way to safely tie gnd to neutral so the case isn't just floating? This is my exact issue with the house I moved into. Far as I know, a functioning equipment ground is best. I swear I've lost at least one PSU due to no grounding. Ground to neutral short is a no-no.
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Sep 17, 2010 18:20
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Ungrounded PC cases are a pain. I've got a client in an old building that may not be grounded well. If I'm standing on the carpet rather than on the plastic mat his chair sits on when I so much as brush the edge of his computer case I get a little static shock and the computer spontaneously reboots. At the least this is horrifically inconvenient. I can't imagine it's too great for the components either.
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Sep 18, 2010 17:11
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So I read all of NEC Article 250 (Grounding), and have some answers. If you have NM (romex) cable, then you can string a single #12 or #14 out to any acceptable ground, as long as your service (panel) goes to the same ground. What prompted this was: A guy at work went to a crazy electrical engineer's house and found that he'd driven a ground rod for every outlet in his house and ran a #10 from the outlet's ground screw to the rod, then connected all the rods with a loop of bare #2, and continued this bare #2 up into his electrical panel. Overkill, but not illegal. The coworker mentioned that he should run another wire (#6 or #8) to his cold water pipe to be current-code legal, and since he's got a fabulous ground ring, bond his A/C ducts and natural gas line (on the customer side of the gas meter). If you have metallic cable, you should be using that as a ground. If you have conduit, you should be using that as a ground or have a ground wire run with your other wires. babyeatingpsychopath fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Sep 19, 2010 |
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Sep 19, 2010 00:21
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:driven a ground rod for every outlet in his house and ran a #10 from the outlet's ground screw to the rod, then connected all the rods with a loop of bare #2, and continued this bare #2 up into his electrical panel. Tell me this was for an older home he was adding ground to. If he did this to a new home...
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Sep 19, 2010 05:53
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Was helping a friend with her house the other day and stumbled across a problem in her master bedroom. The central lighting is just "on". Put in some lightbulbs and they were on. There's a single light switch in the room but it's wired to control an outlet in the room. I disconnected every set of wires in that light switch and the central lighting would remain on when i flipped the switch at the main breaker. What's my next step here? Get up in the attic and trace the wiring?
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Sep 19, 2010 06:51
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chedemefedeme posted:Tell me this was for an older home he was adding ground to. If he did this to a new home... Late 60s construction, cloth-insulated plastic-jacket (precursor to romex) wire.
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Sep 19, 2010 20:54
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Kidsmoke posted:Was helping a friend with her house the other day and stumbled across a problem in her master bedroom. The central lighting is just "on". Put in some lightbulbs and they were on. There's a single light switch in the room but it's wired to control an outlet in the room. I disconnected every set of wires in that light switch and the central lighting would remain on when i flipped the switch at the main breaker. What's my next step here? Get up in the attic and trace the wiring? Whats the age of the home? I'm not licensed but that seems a bit odd to me. I'm not sure anyone would wire a residential central light to be 100% always on. If you've turned every switch around and cant get the light to turn off my instinct wants to say something may be going dangerously wrong. Someone else who sees these things on a regular basis should jump in here but could it possibly be something like a floating ground shorted to the hot somewhere going to that fixture? That seems out there but I really cant think of a situation that would legitimately be wired as "always on". I'm really curious how this one turns out.
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Sep 20, 2010 04:31
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Kidsmoke posted:Was helping a friend with her house the other day and stumbled across a problem in her master bedroom. The central lighting is just "on". Put in some lightbulbs and they were on. There's a single light switch in the room but it's wired to control an outlet in the room. I disconnected every set of wires in that light switch and the central lighting would remain on when i flipped the switch at the main breaker. What's my next step here? Get up in the attic and trace the wiring? kid sinister fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Sep 20, 2010 |
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Sep 20, 2010 06:59
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