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So I just finished my internship in NYC. One thing that was mentioned to me is that my poster work is fantastic, and that I should be doing book covers/posters. What I'm wondering is outside of Modern Dog, I don't know of any firms that specialize in that kind of work. I'm looking for some now, but if you guys knew of any off the top of your head, I'd appreciate it.
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# ? Sep 1, 2010 01:44 |
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# ? May 16, 2024 13:00 |
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qirex posted:It doesn't matter where it's hosted but I'd expect a design candidate to develop their own design for their personal site. If I saw someone using a premade blogspot template and then they had a bunch of kick-rear end work hosted on it I'd wonder how much of it they really did. We've been interviewing a lot of people lately for a Senior Interactive Designer position, and I kept running into the issue of getting portfolio links to great looking Flash portfolios, which none of the applicants built themselves. I specifically had to ask each time - it's pretty frustrating.
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# ? Sep 5, 2010 03:03 |
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I have my B.S. in computer technology with a concentration in computer programming and want to supplement that with a masters degree in motion graphics. What I mean by motion graphics is video compositing/editing, green screening, 3D Modeling in Max and Maya. I talked to an advisor at my local Art Institute about the program I wanted to take. My buddy took the same program and its all stuff I want to learn. Game Design is close but has too much extra stuff like story writing and crap that I don't need or want. I just want it to be to the things I mentioned above, here is the sample curriculum: http://www.artinstitutes.edu/pittsburgh/media-arts/visual-effects-and-motion-graphics-bs-curriculum-5615.aspx I was willing to get another bachelors because they don't offer a master program at the local art institute. I don't really care that its not a masters, but the advisor and my girlfriend told me that maybe I should wait until they offer a masters program (which they said they are trying to do in 4 years) or learn the stuff on my own. Well I have been learning it on my own but I want professional training in these areas by someone from the field. Since I've been laid off for a while and its hard to find a job I'm thinking its time to get serious and take the plunge and find a way to get a masters while learning the same stuff from the above mentioned visual effects and motion graphics curriculum. Besides googling schools and the basic of finding this out on my own, I want to see if any of you guys have any (insider) tips/experience on what schools I should be looking at or if maybe somebody knows of a program somewhere that has exactly what I'm looking for. Fake Edit: A Quick google search revealed some useful pages: http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS356US395&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=visual+effects+motion+graphics+masters http://www.scad.edu/visual-effects/ma.cfm#programButtons http://www.academyart.edu/animation-school/index.html Still looking for input though.
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# ? Sep 6, 2010 00:50 |
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Insipid Oyster posted:Does anyone have any idea how to get an entry-level clerical job in a publishing company? Google is failing me. B. What do you mean "I want the experience in the company to decide if I want to pursue publication"? It makes sense to take a publishing job if you want to see if you're interested in working in publishing, but if you're thinking of writing, that's totally different. C. Realize that you are competing with scores and scores of English BAs who also want entry-level publishing jobs. This will likely be a long and difficult application process. Your work experience will make you more likely to get a position in printing or production, as opposed to editorial. I'd focus your search there, and try to get internships (there are paid internships in nyc, though I don't know how well you can support yourself on them) As to where you find printing/publishing positions in the greater NYC area: Craigslist. You can try mediabistro but they tend toward more midlevel/skilled jobs.
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# ? Sep 6, 2010 16:50 |
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Can anyone give me advice as to how to get interviews at firms I am interested in working at, or how the hiring process works at graphic design firms? I skimmed all the pages in this thread so I apologize if this has been asked, but I didn't see the info I'm looking for. To me more specific, I see a lot of websites for the firms I am looking at saying they're on the lookout for creative people and to send resumes/work samples in an email. Great, I can do that! So now what? Do I call to follow up? Email again? Is that annoying, or expected? Will they email me back at all? If anyone can give me any input as to how this works, I'd appreciate it! I know it will vary dependent on the firm but hopefully someone can give me a clue as to what is desirable. My professors just told me to mail my cover letter and resume, but like I said a lot of places request email/pdf/online portfolios. I'd like to know what people really want! Any input on job hunting would be great as well, like if something in particular helped you nab a job. I'd appreciate it!
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# ? Sep 6, 2010 21:39 |
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Email. Send a follow up a few days afterwards, and keep on being persistent, but don't be annoying like sending one every day. Also, find out who the CD is, or the head AD, as they will most likely be your interviewer. Plus it shows you've done your homework, and they usually respect that. As for job hunting, I've used them all. Craigslist is usually scummy, Monster/Career Builder/Jobing are pretty much failures too, but I've found In-House work that way. I'd try Creative Hotlist, DesignObserver, Coroflot, Behance...contacting Aquent helps too.
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# ? Sep 7, 2010 23:13 |
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Always follow up, no it isn't annoying (as long as you're vaguely suited to the position) - studios are BUSY. I think everyone has asked themselves that at some point though. The best way I've found to skip job sites entirely - get to know creative recruiters. No idea how, I've just stumbled upon a few when networking, but they're the key to getting you in places.
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# ? Sep 8, 2010 00:34 |
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Zurich posted:get to know creative recruiters. What exactly are creative recruiters? I am in a smaller city at the moment, forgive my ignorance. Is it the same as a "headhunter"?
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# ? Sep 8, 2010 22:24 |
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The people at agencies who specifically do the hiring - gets you to the top of the pile if a friend is constantly tweeting 'middleweight designer, 4 days next week, xxx/day'. I live in London though, not sure what the set up is in smaller places!
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# ? Sep 9, 2010 20:35 |
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First off, tons of thanks to everyone who's helped me with getting a realistic perspective on copywriting. I've got a few more questions (even though I'm pretty much committed to the career now) that might help me rattle out the best possible portfolio. First thing's first, though: Insipid Oyster posted:Does anyone have any idea how to get an entry-level clerical job in a publishing company? Google is failing me. Holy crap, I can be useful! (Assuming this isn't too late.) The short answer: You don't. The long answer: The recession hit the print industry pretty goddamn hard. Between the newspapers and plummeting sales of non-Twilight books, publishing companies of all sorts have been laying people off left right and centre--and whenever a job does pop up, you have a legion of laid-off vets with whom to contend. If you want to end the ascent at clerical work, you can try some temp agencies--I recall Atrium mentioning that they take on some print-media clients in the New York area--but even then I wouldn't hold my breath, as the clerical would likely have been cut back in tandem with everyone else. You're essentially asking to buy a ticket to the Titanic from a scalper in a lifeboat. Before jumping the tracks and going back for advertising, I'd had a year and a half experience actually producing books (from commission to completion) for a respectable press, and even with that under my belt I spent two solid years trying to get a job in publishing--book, paper, magazine, brochures--anything. The few who replied all said the same thing about the state of print. Digital publication isn't exactly drowning, but it isn't exactly publication in the traditional sense, either. Different medium, different skill set--I tried it myself, found that I hate programming, and turned my back on web programming altogether, so I couldn't help you if you were interested in pursuing that vein. Without any web development experience, the most you can hope for is freelance writing, and--well, in its current state, it tends to mostly be kinda soul-sucking. That's just me, though--if you can write 250 SEO articles about the same subject without going crazy, you can make an absolute killing in the freelance market. If you're hellbent on print, technical writing is probably the most secure facet you can pursue. There will always be a need for instruction manuals, and if you're good with linear thinking and simplifying complicated concepts, then it could be a drat good choice. You can also get in with completion of a relatively short college program, rather than having to plod through nearly a decade of university for the MA that some other jobs would require. Oh, writing degrees are also apparently a good springboard into law, and textbook publishers are always hurting for people with law degrees willing to work for a publisher's wage. Now for one of my additional questions about Copy: For portfolio-building, we're being paired up with students from the artistic direction class and, well, most of them seem a little green. We've been assured that it doesn't matter if we're submitting for copy, and that execution runs secondary to concept--but c'mon, really? That strikes me as something they're just telling us so that we don't strap our cohorts' loved ones to a bomb that we will deactivate only when our ads look ABSOLUTELY loving PERFECT. Maybe I'm not as good at picking apart the two elements myself, but I would imagine that a great idea assembled into a trainwreck would always look like a trainwreck.
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# ? Sep 11, 2010 04:14 |
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I know that the posts about advertising copywriting are long way back now, but I am still curious. I'm mostly into illustration and Flash but could use some extra money on the side. I have a degree in animation and sequential art but always performed very well in my English and short story writing classes. Is it required to have a writing degree and is there any other way to started? The websites I found were very vague or just wanted to sell me books. Exactly how does one go about getting started in that area if you don't have a specific degree in writing or journalism? Hometown Slime Queen fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Sep 11, 2010 |
# ? Sep 11, 2010 04:16 |
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QUEEN CAUCUS posted:I know that the posts about advertising copywriting are long way back now, but I am still curious. I'm mostly into illustration and Flash but could use some extra money on the side. I have a degree in animation and sequential art but always performed very well in my English and short story writing classes. Is it required to have a writing degree and is there any other way to started? The websites I found were very vague or just wanted to sell me books. My program has people from all sorts of backgrounds--writing, philosophy... hell, even forensics and chemistry. Not sure about schools in the US (apparently there's a very reputable school in Miami, but that's also apparently difficult to get into), but up here they don't care what your degree is in. The catch is that you need to prove that you can already write copy (at least somewhat)--our school locked us in a room and had us draw up a print ad for some inane product on-the-fly. Hope this helped.
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# ? Sep 11, 2010 15:51 |
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Sorry if this is in the wrong place! I'd like to start selling prints but don't have a clue how to go about it. Can anyone advise me on printing quality? I'd probably try and sell them on etsy and ebay. For the record my art is simple, cute (and dumb) so would probably work better in a smaller format such as postcard size. Also suggestions on good printing companies in the UK would be swell.
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# ? Sep 11, 2010 17:35 |
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QUEEN CAUCUS posted:I know that the posts about advertising copywriting are long way back now, but I am still curious. I'm mostly into illustration and Flash but could use some extra money on the side. I have a degree in animation and sequential art but always performed very well in my English and short story writing classes. Is it required to have a writing degree and is there any other way to started? The websites I found were very vague or just wanted to sell me books. Your degree is mostly irrelevant, you'll need a book or portfolio in order to find work. You develop your initial book primarily by going to a portfolio school. Other ways are to start in an agency in another capacity and develop your portfolio by persuading creative to give you odd jobs writing, then working your way up. Pantothenate posted:Not sure about schools in the US (apparently there's a very reputable school in Miami, but that's also apparently difficult to get into), but up here they don't care what your degree is in. This Miami Ad School (http://www.miamiadschool.com/) and it has campuses internationally. It is a good school, not as good as Virgina Commonwealth's Brandcenter, but very good. Woof! Woof! fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Sep 13, 2010 |
# ? Sep 13, 2010 22:24 |
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Pantothenate posted:
What is your real question here? I see a complaint. It's one I am sympathetic to; however, you're a novice copywriter with a novice art director, this is an unfortunate reality of where you're at. My best advice is to talk to your professor, but I doubt they are going to be much more understanding. You're the writer, they're the AD. Focus on your end, it's the only thing you can do. Woof! Woof! fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Sep 13, 2010 |
# ? Sep 13, 2010 22:34 |
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Woof! Woof! posted:What is your real question here? I see a complaint. It's one I am sympathetic to; however, More just curious how much of my portfolio is in someone else's hands. I really understand why most of the copywriters teaching at our school always work with the same AD. I'm just sort of curious how much stock agencies really place in the execution of ads in a copywriter's portfolio.
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# ? Sep 14, 2010 01:39 |
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Pantothenate posted:Oh, writing degrees are also apparently a good springboard into law, and textbook publishers are always hurting for people with law degrees willing to work for a publisher's wage. Also in case this is any way construed as a recommendation, for god's sake don't go to law school
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# ? Sep 14, 2010 03:02 |
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So after this semester I have two more classes left to graduate. Yay! Great time to find a job in a recession, but wait a design co-op for UPS might be interviewing in the next few months. It's full-time, a little above starting salary with benefits. The catch is that it lasts one year, and unfortunately my last studio class (Portfolio ironically enough) is all day on Friday and only offered in the spring semesters. The other class is offered on a Saturday and wouldn't be a problem. I've been looking at job listings for junior designers and noticing the 1-2 years experience line right below the 4 year degree requirement. So now I'm wondering should I delay graduation until 2012 when I'm already 5 years in to get the 1 year full time experience? I could pay off some debt, set aside money for travel, get my car in better condition, buy two years worth of insurance for the car, get some savings...all that stuff that comes with making more than a pittance. Although with being so close to graduating my professor might work something out any way, but if that doesn't happen what would you guys do if you got the job? BTW I saw some MAS talk, and that's my dream school, but the 40k+ price tag...drat cheese eats mouse fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Sep 14, 2010 |
# ? Sep 14, 2010 10:44 |
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Pantothenate posted:More just curious how much of my portfolio is in someone else's hands. I really understand why most of the copywriters teaching at our school always work with the same AD. I'm just sort of curious how much stock agencies really place in the execution of ads in a copywriter's portfolio. If it's absolutely atrocious design and direction, it's hard to say it wont look bad (the medium is the message etc etc) but don't worry too much. If your writing is good, it will be good in spite of the poor presentation.
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# ? Sep 14, 2010 16:24 |
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Turd polishing will prepare you more for the work environment than working with a superstar.
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# ? Sep 14, 2010 16:26 |
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Defenestration posted:As someone with a writing degree who used to make a living writing about lawyers (and now works for a textbook publisher), I have no idea wtf you're talking about here. I don't know if it's just the one company, but there's a publishing house near my hometown that won't even look at the resume of either a writer or editor unless they've got a law degree. What do they need lawyers for? Especially for their editors? You're the expert; you tell me. As of the time I started looking for print jobs, these people had been hiring (maybe off-and-on, maybe continuously) for at least the previous 5 years (and this was shortly after the recession hit. I checked the job boards before I moved from English to Writing and right before I graduated, and my stepfather is a technical writer who was looking for work two years in between). I assumed that this stipulation was because people don't go through law school to make 30-35k working on what is possibly some of the most boring literature in print. Who knows--maybe they just hire lawyer-retirees who are just looking to fill the time (and possibly deal with issues of mortality by putting their name in a textbook). Maybe the constant hiring is because their writers just kick off from old age. Maybe they never actually hire anyone; maybe they're actually a drug cartel who uses coded want ads to safely communicate with their suppliers. I don't loving know. As for the writing leading into law, I'm just basing this on what the law students at my university told me (I roomed with a bunch of 2nd-3rd years). They said that writers make for good rhetoricians--something about communicating or some dogshit. I know neither the cost of law school nor expected salary, hence my not claiming to have any first-hand information on the study or practise of law. I just wanted to put it on the table for him because it was put on the table for me. Jesus, I wanted this to be a quick clarification, but now I want to make sure I've explained every minute goddamn detail. I mean, if you can jump down my throat over a single sentence that pretty much opens with "Apparently..." Of course, you do realize this stands to prove me right; your skills as a writer has caused me to unravel under cross-examination. Pfft. Construed. Say that to me again; I'll construe your face. Edit--man, that law school thread is depressing. I retract my advice about looking into law--either flip burgers or taking a nap with our head in the oven, because those are the only ends left in this miserable loving world. Pantothenate fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Sep 14, 2010 |
# ? Sep 14, 2010 23:28 |
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Pantothenate posted:Edit--man, that law school thread is depressing. I retract my advice about looking into law--either flip burgers or taking a nap with our head in the oven, because those are the only ends left in this miserable loving world. Carry on, sir. Godspeed
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# ? Sep 15, 2010 19:17 |
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Another question related to job hunting - what are peoples experiences with Aquent? I don't have any experience dealing with recruiters of any kind, so I don't really know what to expect. I'm guess the placements will mostly be for in-house temp stuff? For the record, I'm a fresh out of school graphic designer in Vancouver. The market here seems...small.
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# ? Sep 16, 2010 21:23 |
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Kne.Li. posted:Another question related to job hunting - what are peoples experiences with Aquent? I don't have any experience dealing with recruiters of any kind, so I don't really know what to expect. I'm guess the placements will mostly be for in-house temp stuff? That said my last dealing with a creative recruiter [not Aquent] was really stupid, they told the client I knew stuff I didn't so I looked like an rear end in a top hat in the interview.
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# ? Sep 17, 2010 04:52 |
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I'm now 21 and have dabbled with the idea of going to school for a while. I've always wanted to live in NYC, I've been visiting there for 12 years now, multiple times a year. I've looked into Pratt, Parson's and SVA. I've always had a focus on web/graphic design, I'm not too bad at programming, and my illustration work is decent. If I had to pick what I enjoy doing the most it's either oil painting or designing web pages. I've never been able to decide what I should focus on. Which one of these schools would be the optimal choice for both illustration and graphic/web design? Thanks.
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# ? Sep 17, 2010 18:17 |
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So ever since the 6th grade (I'm now 22) I've always loved web/graphic design. This was all fine and dandy until the 8th grade when I found out I was colorblind. Not completely colorblind mind you but all I was told when I took the test (the different colored circles and such) and got half of them wrong. My question is, is there some secret method that other graphic designers, who may be colorblind, use to somehow work around this. I always felt like as soon as I found out I was colorblind that it just shattered that "dream" but I still have the urges to do it. Advise me oh great designers of SA! P.S. I don't know what type of colorblindness I am since they never told me. I just mix up purples and blues and reds and greens and some browns. I just have a hard time identifying certain colors. Cizzo fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Sep 18, 2010 |
# ? Sep 18, 2010 21:45 |
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Cizzo posted:So ever since the 6th grade (I'm now 22) I've always loved web/graphic design. This was all fine and dandy until the 8th grade when I found out I was colorblind. Not completely colorblind mind you but all I was told when I took the test (the different colored circles and such) and got half of them wrong. So of course she was asked about how she got around it, and a large part of her method involved consulting friends and colleagues and documenting successful colors and how to make them (this proportion aquamarine blue, that proportion of violet blue, etc). Based on that, I'd say that if you establish a method for finding and documenting color schemes, like through consulting with other designers/clients, you'll be fine. Color is only one aspect of many in good web design. A good design in black and white is better than a crappy one in color.
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# ? Sep 19, 2010 03:35 |
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Cizzo posted:So ever since the 6th grade (I'm now 22) I've always loved web/graphic design. This was all fine and dandy until the 8th grade when I found out I was colorblind. Not completely colorblind mind you but all I was told when I took the test (the different colored circles and such) and got half of them wrong. I'm not even colourblind and 99% of my work is black & white =/ I'd think as long as you're not working by yourself (and are especially good at other areas of design) not being great with colours wouldn't be a massive problem. You can always draw a great logo in black & white and have a colleague pick out an appropriate colour.
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# ? Sep 20, 2010 00:24 |
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Cizzo posted:Advise me oh great designers of SA! There are probably online tests that will give you a better idea of your problem areas.
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# ? Sep 20, 2010 00:42 |
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Kne.Li. posted:Another question related to job hunting - what are peoples experiences with Aquent? I don't have any experience dealing with recruiters of any kind, so I don't really know what to expect. I'm guess the placements will mostly be for in-house temp stuff? I worked with 'em in Boston and they were fine...they sent me on interviews to Arnold, Puma (who has a pretty crazy in-house design firm), Molecular, and a few others. I had one guy in particular who was really good at getting me to interviews, (and most of these were FT gigs), the only downside is they push hard for you to take a job. I was very selective in my job hunt, and they push pretty hard after each interview, even though some jobs have bad locations or aren't right for you. YMMV though, since each recruiter is different.
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# ? Sep 21, 2010 02:48 |
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Locus posted:There are probably online tests that will give you a better idea of your problem areas. Oh? Any ones in particular? Thanks for all the tips guys. I just see Photoshop's awful color selector (for me at least) and it always scares me. I've been tempted to buy one of those "color" books that literally are just a bunch of colors that go well together along with their color codes on each page. I forgot what they were called but it was my mom who saw such a thing on HGTV (I laughed) and suggested it to me. I'm really contemplating getting back into it now. I'm super rusty since the last time I did anything was my junior year of high school but meh, might as well start now than regret it later!
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# ? Sep 21, 2010 05:27 |
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Cizzo posted:My question is, is there some secret method that other graphic designers, who may be colorblind, use to somehow work around this. I always felt like as soon as I found out I was colorblind that it just shattered that "dream" but I still have the urges to do it. About 7% of the male population in the US is colorblind. You're probably red-green, as it's the most common. Just make sure to use palettes you're comfortable with (kuler.adobe.com can be useful) and remember that a good design sense can overcome any disability. Except actually blindness. You'll be fine.
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# ? Sep 29, 2010 21:23 |
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Cross posting from Ask/Tell, but was wondering if anyone applied for a Fulbright in the arts and what the process was like? I know you submit a portfolio.
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# ? Oct 5, 2010 10:14 |
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With the fullbright having individual or institutional backing is really important, as well as having really clear goals that obviously can't be achieved inside the US (studying traditional Japanese pottery making techniques, etc.) The other thing I have noticed with fullbrights is that they are usually really well connected academically and usually have really interesting projects they are working on - something they've thought through very thoroughly and have been working on a long time. I'm not actually a fullbright right now, its just something I have my eye on in my long term plans. Your portfolio will obviously be reviewed by professionals who will be taking your background into consideration (student, etc.) but I think the most important thing is connections and your proposal being really bad rear end.
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# ? Oct 6, 2010 07:16 |
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It's nothing too exciting, but I was wanting to do an MA in advertising to experience what design and advertising is like overseas since the U.S. is so insular. As globalization increases I think it'll be important to understand what is appealing to different cultures. I did come up with a new product that I'm currently designing everything for. Our program is pretty good though. Of the 32 that applied about half got in.
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# ? Oct 6, 2010 19:59 |
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Not to poo poo in your salad or whatever but I don't think you're on the right track with that. When it comes to advertising and marketing firms in countries like the US are going to be extremely sophisticated compared with other countries, and schools are going to have a bigger pool of teaching talent to draw from, and have more up to date technology to teach with. So as a general response I think you're on the wrong track there. There are probably many schools in Europe that are competitive but nothing that provide something you couldn't get comparably here and that's something you should consider in applying for a fullbright because that's what the review panel will talk about. The fullbright is really about enabling people to do things they couldn't do domestically. On top of that I have never heard of them sponsoring anyone for anything in advertising or the like, which I would align as closely with a business function as I would with an arts function. When I think of the arts fullbrights I know (and people who have applied and been rejected) it has been for things like doing field research on specific objects/people ('quianlong era painting at the national museum of china in beijing') or location specific research ('cross cultural grafitti'); doing field work with established artists in a country ('studying akita pottery in rural japan in a community there') etc. Thats the kind of poo poo you're competing against. If you are hellbent on doing something related to advertising you would need to have some kind of cultural spin on it, and have a research advisor who is established at the institution you're applying to. I'm assuming you don't since you haven't mentioned it, so you'd have to look into that. You are kind of behind the game in terms of timing for that, I'd expect plans for that to be happening at least winter-ish of the previous year but it could happen if you know someone at the institution and can hustle.
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# ? Oct 7, 2010 21:13 |
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Thanks for the reply. This is why I was asking around because I wasn't sure if I would be wasting energy applying. I'm looking overseas mostly because it's cheaper and less time (30-40k over 2 years vs. 10-15k over 1 year) along with opportunities of being hired overseas for a bit. It's a result of wanting to study advertising along with getting out of the United States because of the better social system. Also, if the Euro/Pound stays strong then I could pay off my loans faster if I got a job in the UK. I know I'm still competing with locals who will have preference just because well I'm an American. My friend said it was hard for him to find a job because his employers said Americans quit so easily, but maybe in the professional world it's different since he was going for retail and the like. It's been discussed before in here about advertising schools that are really good overseas, and I've been researching those. I try to talk to my adviser and I'm not really getting good feedback about what to do after I graduate. All this might not even happen until a few years from now though. And no I don't have any contacts at the institution I'd be applying for so I guess I'm a pretty lovely candidate. Also, all the art Fulbrights you mentioned sound more like an art history slant, which really isn't my thing. cheese eats mouse fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Oct 8, 2010 |
# ? Oct 8, 2010 02:43 |
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Well, studying pottery techniques with an akita potter is one I have heard of. Another guy I know applying is photographing gangs involved in drug trafficking in Brazil, and the gigantic slums there, as part of this ongoing project he's doing. I run into more humanities fullbrights over the years since there are just more of them :/
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# ? Oct 8, 2010 08:54 |
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I know it is possible for graphic designers to be awarded. Sagmeister went to Pratt with a graphic design degree and Milton Glaser is another recipient. I guess the best way to find out is just to ask the program adviser here.
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# ? Oct 8, 2010 10:18 |
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# ? May 16, 2024 13:00 |
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http://www.agencypizzamaker.com/ Do this and you'll get a job!
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# ? Oct 15, 2010 16:43 |