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alreadybeen posted:Doing all of your own repairs also has the tremendous cost of time. I don't think it's totally as cut and dry as that. Much like everything else in life, it boils down to specifics. Some jobs are more likely than other to be hosed up by amateurs, and some matter more than others if they are. All in all, self-maintenance on cars/home is pretty much always a solid investment, imo. CornHolio posted:Pretty much this. I had nothing more than a socket set I borrowed from work when I did my first oil change many years ago. I just wanted to know how to do it, so I had bought cheap ramps and a small bucket to put the oil in. Got all that for $25 from Autozone. Once I realized I could do it myself, I jumped to spark plugs, brakes, etc... There are always people there to help when you inevitably gently caress up (AI rocks!). This is encouraging, thanks. Really wish I'd joined SA 10 years ago.
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Sep 1, 2010 03:25
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alreadybeen posted:Doing all of your own repairs also has the tremendous cost of time. This is true, but it's generally high value you're getting for this time. Even small shops around here charge $80+ per hour of labor. Even considering that a novice isn't as efficient as a real pro, you can save a bundle of money by fixing your own poo poo. It's not for everyone, but anyone interested enough to learn can do basic maintenance.
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Sep 1, 2010 04:05
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alreadybeen posted:Doing all of your own repairs also has the tremendous cost of time. I think it really boils down to if you have the time. If you're an incredibly busy person with the money to spare, by all means take it to a mechanic. They're insured if they break your car and they have air tools and lifts to make most jobs a cinch. However, they also charge anywhere from $60/hr to $120/hr or more. And they go by book rates so if they do it in a half hour and the book states to charge you for two hours, you're getting charged for two hours. Plus diagnostic time. And disposal fees. And they stripped a lug nut and didn't tell you. Oil changes are usually a wash. Beyond that, though, there can be substantial savings by learning to DIY which is why I posted the anecdote about saving $700. That's not bad for something that is pretty much four bolts per wheel once you get the wheel off, and a single bolt and some arm-hurting tensioner-holding for the belts. (I know I used dealership pricing, an indy would have been cheaper for sure, but I don't know of a good GM indy around here since I've never owned one). Hell, my brother paid an indy shop $400 to replace his oxygen sensor in his Grand Am. The part is something like $60 online and it's RIGHT. ON. TOP. OF. THE. ENGINE. (Yes it was the precat sensor before you ask). Mind boggling. edit: and on top of that, by being familiar with the mechanics of your car, you're in a much better position when you do deal with mechanics (they can't make stuff up) or when you're stranded. I know somebody that took their car to Midas for a brake job, the mechanic came into the waiting room with a filthy air filter and wanted to replace it. It wasn't even from their car. The fact that they recognized that the air filter wasn't from their own car (and they had replaced it somewhat recently) saved them from a common scam. Likewise, you think your oil change place always changes you oil filter? CornHolio fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Sep 1, 2010 |
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Sep 1, 2010 04:06
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The more I think about it I honestly believe the biggest factor is if you find it fun and enjoyable it is for you to work on. If you don't enjoy it, then spending six hours working on your car is really 'work' you are being 'paid' for via cost savings. If you do enjoy it, then it's a hobbie that lets you save money. Obviously time is a requirement and if you are working 80 hours a week it doesn't matter, but I think really it comes down to how you view the activity. If you don't do work yourself, then like Cornholio said it is easy and valuable to at least know the basics about your car. Being able to point out the air filter, oil filter, fuse boxes etc. can save you from being screwed. Also assuming the car is in condition to run just take it to a couple different mechanics and get different estimates.
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Sep 1, 2010 04:28
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Actually I still disagree. This is BFC, where we talk about how to save money. I don't particularly enjoy mowing the lawn, but it still makes a lot more sense for me to do it myself, than to hire a landscape company to come mow my lawn for me twice a month. I don't enjoy cleaning my house, but paying for a maid to do it is for rich people who have more money than time. I'd say unless you make something over $40 an hour and you're giving up time you could be billing/working in order to work on your car, you're probably going to save money doing many of the more straightforward repair/maintenance tasks yourself. I also think people seriously overestimate how complicated or difficult car repair is, generally. Can you follow instructions? If so, then the most likely setback when repairing your car is that you accidentally break something while trying to take it apart, in which case, you buy another part and fix it. And parts are still generally much cheaper than labor (the bigger the job, the more likely this is to be true). I don't think anyone's really suggesting replacing a transmission or swapping an engine or restoring an antique car ("enthusiast" stuff), mind you. Just the sort of things Corn's been doing throughout this thread, with a fairly minimal set of hand tools and (often) not even a garage to work in. I also think that it's good for you. It's thrifty and frugal, and it improves your understanding of general mechanics, electronics, etc. ("how the world works") which are topics most Americans are overly ignorant of. Understanding how your car is put together and what the various parts are also helps you maintain it properly, which protects the large financial investment you've probably made in it. Even modern cars with lots of fancy electronics are, fundamentally, understandable mechanically. It's not rocket science, and there's no reason to be afraid of it. Cars are mostly modular, lots of parts are fairly standardized, and (varying with make/model) are often designed to make it easier to repair or replace the things that are most likely to need repair or replacement during the normal life of the vehicle.
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Sep 1, 2010 08:38
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alreadybeen posted:Doing all of your own repairs also has the tremendous cost of time. Everybody's time is worth different amounts of money. A window regulator messed up in my gf's Saab. A local shop would have charged 2 hours of labor and over a hundred for the whole regulator. I spend an hour researching the problem (having never touched a Saab before) and ordered the little plastic roller I needed to fix the issue for $5. And then an hour on a weekend to replace the thing. Sure, it cost me quite a bit of my time, but it certainly offset the money paid to a shop for labor-intense body work. I think my argument is that, if you are sufficiently shrewd, there are certain things that people with even basic tools can fix successfully, if they are willing. e: fwiw, I didn't enjoy the repair much, but I love saving money, so I still prefered the experience overall. kimbo305 fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Sep 1, 2010 |
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Sep 1, 2010 08:51
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CornHolio posted:I'm not even sure what this means. Dealers are really expensive, there's no reason to pay for service at one, it's not a valid example. CornHolio posted:And I can almost guarantee that the 3800 will outlive many more sets of pads and rotors, not to mention the apocalypse. Automatic front wheel drive GM products, legendary for reliability, especially the H-platform, shared with other quality cars like the Olds 88 and the Lesabre, from 2000 no less, the golden age of GM quality. Good investment, I take back everything I said. CornHolio posted:Oil changes are usually a wash. There are some skeevy shops that advertise 15-dollar oil/filter, they use barrel oil, I always watch to make sure it's done right. That's even cheaper then the retail cost of the oil alone. CornHolio posted:RIGHT. ON. TOP. OF. THE. ENGINE. Most of what you're paying for is diagnosis - sometimes it's obvious, but in a lot of cases, it's not. Busted oxygen sensors are a good example, unless it trips a code or something. NOTinuyasha fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Sep 2, 2010 |
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Sep 2, 2010 02:29
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NOTinuyasha posted:Automatic front wheel drive GM products, legendary for reliability, especially the H-platform, shared with other quality cars like the Olds 88 and the Lesabre, from 2000 no less, the golden age of GM quality. Good investment, I take back everything I said. I like to poo poo on GM as much as anybody else, but the 3800 is a legend. Really the only problems I can think of in the bigger GM cars of that era were window regulators. Otherwise they're solid enough cars. Don't get me started on the 3100 and 3400 engines though... NOTinuyasha posted:
In this age of OBDII cars, a broken O2 sensor will always trip a code. I don't think shops should be allowed to charge more than ten minutes of time (assuming they can't find their tool) to diagnose a check-engine light (unless it is a rare case of it not being obvious, for instance a vacuum leak or something). Especially when a reader costs $50 and Autozone reads them for free anyway. CornHolio fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Sep 2, 2010 |
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Sep 2, 2010 02:47
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CornHolio posted:In this age of OBDII cars, a broken O2 sensor will always trip a code. I don't think shops should be allowed to charge more than ten minutes of time (assuming they can't find their tool) to diagnose a check-engine light (unless it is a rare case of it not being obvious, for instance a vacuum leak or something). Especially when a reader costs $50 and Autozone reads them for free anyway. Forgive my ignorance, but the $50 autozone tool is the same as the computer looking tool the dealers use? The one I borrowered from auto zone told me that I MAY have a o2 sensor issue, but the dealer computer tool told me exactly which o2 seonsor was malfuntioning, unless I was using it wrong.
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Sep 2, 2010 13:36
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LorneReams posted:Forgive my ignorance, but the $50 autozone tool is the same as the computer looking tool the dealers use? The one I borrowered from auto zone told me that I MAY have a o2 sensor issue, but the dealer computer tool told me exactly which o2 seonsor was malfuntioning, unless I was using it wrong. It depends. Most dealerships have a $4000+ machine that they use. Different makes use different machines. However, independent repair shops aren't going to have those most of the time unless they're specialized. They're going to have a standard OBDII scanner (with a bit more features than the Autozone one; Mine has the ability to test O2 sensors, for instance). There are forums online dedicated to the OBDII setup, they can be incredibly helpful if the code is vague. For instance, my Volvo regularly throws a P0172 code which means it occasionally runs rich. It still runs fine and I'm not worried about it but it could be a slowly failing O2 sensor, a bad MAF sensor, a vacuum leak, a bad fuel pressure regulator, or any number of other things. In that case OBDII is vague and the special Volvo scanner may be able to track down why it runs rich sometimes. Not worth the diagnostic price yet, though. Many cars, especially those with a strong enthusiast base, have scanners that go above and beyond OBDII. For instance, Peake Research makes an excellent scantool for BMWs. The price is high but it pays for itself quickly. It does all the same diagnostics as the factory machine can. Likewise, Volvo has VADIS, which is available through :files: or for a very high cost from Volvo. Other makes have similar options. This is one huge reason why it is beneficial to own a car with a large enthusiast base. CornHolio fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Sep 2, 2010 |
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Sep 2, 2010 13:56
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CornHolio posted:Not worth the diagnostic price yet, though. Every dealer I've been to would apply the diagnostic price to the repair, os it's not always a bad thing.
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Sep 2, 2010 14:08
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LorneReams posted:Every dealer I've been to would apply the diagnostic price to the repair, os it's not always a bad thing. Maybe they mark up the repair accordingly ;-) There are some really good dealers out there that will do things like this, but there are also dealers out there that will charge $50 to replace a headlight bulb. (Although in some cars that might still be a really good deal Ultimately you're paying for their time and special training, and a lot of the time (though not all the time) a little bit of research can forgo that. CornHolio fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Sep 2, 2010 |
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Sep 2, 2010 14:12
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LorneReams posted:Every dealer I've been to would apply the diagnostic price to the repair, os it's not always a bad thing. That's a psychological trick. "You've already invested $50, but you 'get it back' if you get your car fixed here! Please ignore the fact that getting it fixed elsewhere would save you way more than $50."
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Sep 2, 2010 16:27
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CornHolio posted:In this age of OBDII cars, a broken O2 sensor will always trip a code. I don't think shops should be allowed to charge more than ten minutes of time (assuming they can't find their tool) to diagnose a check-engine light (unless it is a rare case of it not being obvious, for instance a vacuum leak or something). Especially when a reader costs $50 and Autozone reads them for free anyway. The O2 sensor is one part in a vast quantity of ever-changing electrical components that may or may not trip a relevant code, or any code at all, upon failure, relays are a good example, the car may not have a way to discern if a relay is functioning or not. That happened to my fuel pump relay - I fixed it myself but it took hours of diagnosis, since it didn't trip any codes. That's not to say an OBDII scanner isn't a good investment, but don't slam people for not wanting to deal with repairs even if you you find one specific example (out of thousands) to be easy.
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Sep 2, 2010 23:35
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NOTinuyasha posted:but don't slam people for not wanting to deal with repairs even if you you find one specific example (out of thousands) to be easy. Hey I'm not slamming anybody on anything, I'm just saying a good set of tools are a good investment (and gave an example, since it was fresh in my mind), and people can save a lot of money by (at least trying) to do repairs themselves. I mean heck, if a car throws a code, a trip to autozone and ten minutes on the internet are free so why the heck not at least see if its something easy? And then some people aren't mechanically inclined, and that's that.
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Sep 3, 2010 00:02
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It has helped me. I was not aware Auto Zone did free diagnostics. My check engine light has been on for like 2 months (on and off for like 2 years). I'll head over there on Saturday. Thanks!
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Sep 3, 2010 00:09
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I used to have to turn the engine on and off a few times and the code would blink out. I would then look in the book to see what the code meant. I used to feel like a god drat genius for figuring that out. This was a little before the easy of the internet however. VVV I needed to leave a deposit for that tool that allows you to twist in your brake caliper to get it to compress. LorneReams fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Sep 3, 2010 |
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Sep 3, 2010 00:40
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SouthShoreSamurai posted:It has helped me. I was not aware Auto Zone did free diagnostics. They also rent out a decent amount of tools for free, mostly special stuff you don't need often like pullers and spring compressors and stuff. And it's FREE! LorneReams posted:I used to have to turn the engine on and off a few times and the code would blink out. I would then look in the book to see what the code meant. I used to feel like a god drat genius for figuring that out. This was a little before the easy of the internet however. All OBD1 cars have some kind of system to do that. And yes you do leave a deposit, but you get the whole thing back. That's still considered free, right? CornHolio fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Sep 3, 2010 |
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Sep 3, 2010 00:40
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LorneReams posted:VVV I needed to leave a deposit for that tool that allows you to twist in your brake caliper to get it to compress. A vise? That's all I used, lol. This thread may be moving more towards AI than BFC... 
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Sep 3, 2010 02:11
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SouthShoreSamurai posted:A vise? That's all I used, lol. Mine won't work with just a vice, the cylinder needs to be turned as you press it in...this of course took 2 hours of swearing to figure out....
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Sep 3, 2010 12:46
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My old Buick has over 210k miles and is starting to die, so I'd like to retire it and get a new car. A new car loan would be my first dealing with credit; I've lived debt-free, no cards or loans, so clearly I'll have no credit report. I have been at my job for two and a half years, have an income of about $50k, about $12k in savings, and expenses are less about 1/3 of income. Do I even stand a chance of getting a car loan at this point, or do I need to pray my Buick hangs on a couple more years while I get something like a secured credit card and start to build credit?
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Sep 4, 2010 01:33
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You will get completely raped at any dealership. On the other hand, you might be able to secure a loan from the bank that you bank with, if they are willing to take your employment history into account. You do in fact have a credit history - it probably only has your current bank account in it, and possibly your direct deposit history if that's how you deposit your checks. The best case scenario is that you're at a credit union that does auto loans as a matter of course. All that said; you are much better off establishing good credit first. It doesn't even take that much effort: get a credit card or two, make some small purchases and pay them off before you are charged any interest. Do this for a year and you'll already have a pretty decent score. If you have trouble qualifying for a normal credit card, you can start with a department store one (they hand those out like candy); just make sure you always pay off the balance in full, so you don't get raped with the very bad interest rate they're likely to offer you up front. Edit: Or you could just save up your money and buy the car in cash. What were you looking to spend? If you must have a new car, you could always get a Hyundai (their quality for new cars these days is excellent!) for like $12k or so.
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Sep 4, 2010 04:53
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Leperflesh posted:On the other hand, you might be able to secure a loan from the bank that you bank with, if they are willing to take your employment history into account. You do in fact have a credit history - it probably only has your current bank account in it, and possibly your direct deposit history if that's how you deposit your checks. The first sentence is true. Banks do sometimes use that kind of information in their decision. The second sentence is entirely false. Bank accounts and direct deposits are not on your credit report, and they have no effect on your score, good or bad. The same goes for utility and rent payments, unless you leave a bill unpaid and they send it to a collector. Then it goes as a negative on your report. In all likelihood, if you have no credit cards and no loans of any type, past or present, then you will have no score. No score just as bad as a low score. Your best bet is either to get a secured card and/or a store card from somewhere and wait a year, or try to negotiate with a credit union or a bank you have a long history with.
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Sep 4, 2010 07:23
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I knew they didn't affect score, but I really thought bank accounts and direct deposit were sometimes included in the report. Hmm, now I feel I'd better double-check my own, maybe you're right. Edit: This thing says bank accounts are listed on the report. I think that's true; they don't include balance history or anything, but the fact you have an account (and I think the date opened) is there. Edit 2: Ahh, here we go. I am probably conflating these other consumer reports with the general credit report. When I got my mortgage they definitely pulled all this stuff. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Sep 4, 2010 |
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Sep 4, 2010 07:28
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Some utilities use a credit forward payment service that absolutely will count as an installment loan on a credit report.
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Sep 4, 2010 14:37
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LorneReams posted:Some utilities use a credit forward payment service that absolutely will count as an installment loan on a credit report. My gas bill is on my credit report where as my electric is not. Sort of annoying because each billing cycle it will shows $104/104, 100% utilitzation. Glad I have a few high-limit cards to still keep the ratio low...
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Sep 4, 2010 16:27
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My bank said no chance in this economy, and I've had a checking account with them since 1997. Yikes. Looks I got some time to spend under the hood. Whoever said the 3800 is bulletproof is absolutely right; the engine could go for another 210 no sweat and still has great power...it's the electricals that's going on the car.
dirty shrimp money fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Sep 4, 2010 |
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Sep 4, 2010 17:04
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korranus posted:My bank said no chance in this economy, and I've had a checking account with them since 1997. Yikes. Looks I got some time to spend under the hood. Whoever said the 3800 is bulletproof is absolutely right; the engine could go for another 210 no sweat and still has great power...it's the electricals that's going on the car. You have $12K in savings, right? Why not look for a used car (Toyota especially), around 7 or 8 years with around 100K miles but still lots of life left because it's been cared for. Shouldn't be more than 4 or 5K and will last you another few years. If you can repair your Buick, that would be the best option.
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Sep 5, 2010 01:09
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Nocheez posted:You have $12K in savings, right? Why not look for a used car (Toyota especially), around 7 or 8 years with around 100K miles but still lots of life left because it's been cared for. Shouldn't be more than 4 or 5K and will last you another few years. No I'm fixing the Buick. I'm not dead in the water needing a car.
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Sep 6, 2010 00:44
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You can get a loan easily if you put 4k~ down. You might get raped on the interest rate but if you can get in on a dealer financing for a bank owned by the franchise, you might do pretty well. ie: GMAC, Mazda Finance, etc
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Sep 7, 2010 10:35
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I browsed through some of the thread and didn't see anything regarding this: What are people's thoughts on taking over someone's lease? I only drive ~8000 miles a year so it seems to me that I could get a decent deal on a nearly new car by taking over someone's lease and thus avoid a down payment, taxes, secuity deposit, etc. What happens to the security deposit (if there was one)? I assume it would go to me since I took over the lease or does it go back to the original lease owner since they paid for it? Basically does the original leaser get anything back at the end of the lease (security or down payment) or is the only benefit of them transferring it to simply get out of the monthly payments? Depending on the residual at the end of the lease I could either trade it in or buy it outright. What are the downsides beyond excessive wear and tear that I would have to pay for? Running out of miles is not an issue for me as I don't put that many miles on. I know there is a ~$500 fee, but many lease owners will pay it or offer some other incentive as well. I am looking specifically at BMWs - the 335 and M3. Thanks
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Sep 7, 2010 17:43
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Realjones posted:I browsed through some of the thread and didn't see anything regarding this: I think the main benefit of going this route is the incentive that is usually offered. It isnt uncommon for people to offer several thousand dollars. You'll definitely want to hang on for some sort of incentivized deal, especially with cars in that range/class. The most important thing is to be sure you can afford the car. If you are stretching and need to rely on the incentive to get there, you shouldnt be looking at those cars. I would also examine the residual value of the car very closely and compare it to the milage you expect to be on the car at end of lease. What are cars like that going for now? For example, I am just about to sign for an Infiniti G37, and the residual in 3 years will be about $20,000 (this is Canada). The car will have less than 45,000km on it, and will be worth at least 27-29k at that point, so it's sort of a no brainer to buy it out, even if just to sell and pull the extra cash out. Saltin fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Sep 8, 2010 |
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Sep 8, 2010 15:17
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I had someone offer me a chance to buy out his lease..he had only put like 5K miles on it and it was worth 20K while his buyout was like 13K. I wish I had taken him up on it...I wonder if that sort of this is common?
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Sep 8, 2010 15:54
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LorneReams posted:I had someone offer me a chance to buy out his lease..he had only put like 5K miles on it and it was worth 20K while his buyout was like 13K. I wish I had taken him up on it...I wonder if that sort of this is common? If the car was worth $20K he should have just sold it himself and paid off the leasing company. The sort of lease takeover I was looking at tend to be situations where someone leased a car and now can't afford the lease or needs a different car (like for a family). The buyout for the car is almost always more than what it is actually worth or else people would just lease cars and flip them. By "buying out" I was referring to taking over the lease and making monthly payments until the lease it up, not the buy out at the end of the lease.
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Sep 8, 2010 22:01
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Realjones posted:If the car was worth $20K he should have just sold it himself and paid off the leasing company. You can't sell a car you don't own. When you lease, the car belongs to the financing company/manufacturer/whoever. Not you.
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Sep 9, 2010 01:19
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Saltin posted:You can't sell a car you don't own. When you lease, the car belongs to the financing company/manufacturer/whoever. Not you. Depending upon the terms of your lease you may be able to sell the car during the lease. The leasing company will give you a buyout amount. You payoff the buyout amount, get the title, transfer it to the new owner. Most people don't do this (assuming their lease allows it) because the buyout is usually higher than the car is worth, so they look at trading the lease instead - this way they don't have to write a check to the leasing company to cover any difference. There are leases that do not allow you to "sell" the car during your lease, but that is not the case with ALL leases.
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Sep 9, 2010 23:36
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NOTinuyasha posted:The O2 sensor is one part in a vast quantity of ever-changing electrical components that may or may not trip a relevant code, or any code at all, upon failure, relays are a good example, the car may not have a way to discern if a relay is functioning or not. That happened to my fuel pump relay - I fixed it myself but it took hours of diagnosis, since it didn't trip any codes. To add onto the VW Jetta hate, my 03 Jetta has had the check engine light on for the past 14 or so months. I've taken it to several different mechanics on numerous occasions but they can't quite seem to ever fix the issue. They'll do something, the car will run great for a week or two, and it'll eventually start doing the same thing all over again (lots of engine shake, cold starts, difficulty accelerating in the morning). The codes from Autozone always indicate that the car is running rich and is having multiple cylinder misfires. I've had spark plugs changed, coil packs replaced, hoses replaced, MAF sensor cleaned and eventually replaced, and a few other things done to it. My issue is that whatever I pay to have done is generally something that was needed (due to age and/or regular upkeep) and so it seems the problem is bigger and more difficult to assess. The car has a little over 170k miles (woohoo to road trips). I'm debating whether to continue spending money on this never-ending problem or to just put the money towards a down payment on a new (to me) car. Suggestions?
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Sep 10, 2010 04:48
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Tortilla Maker posted:Did you try bringing it into a dealer...they are more expensive, but they should be able to tell you exactly what is wrong. I've had similar issues, I would go to my regular guy and he would do his best, but after I got the VW, I found problems kept coming back. After I went to the dealer, it was usually fixed for good, and they tend to be MUCH better about offering comps if they think you are interested in buying from them in the future. I've gotten free or cheap repairs, free oil changes, cheap mats, etc. Having a relationship with a dealer is key. A 03 with 170K isn't going to get you much on the market I'm afraid...I'm in the same boat (01 with 160K), and I decided to drive mine until it dies. The reapirs so far have been cheaper then car payments if I worked it out, in fact much less as nothing broke in a while. I'm about due for my timing belt, so I'm a little worried about how much that will cost, but I'm going to see how long I can ride this out as I've seen people at the dealer with late 90s models with 300-400K miles.
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Sep 10, 2010 13:13
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Tortilla Maker posted:Suggestions? Save your money for as long as you can and then trade it in for a new car. I don't know anyone who had a Jetta around that year that did not have anything but problems, and yours is getting up there in mileage.
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Sep 10, 2010 14:11
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Tortilla Maker posted:To add onto the VW Jetta hate, my 03 Jetta has had the check engine light on for the past 14 or so months. I've taken it to several different mechanics on numerous occasions but they can't quite seem to ever fix the issue. They'll do something, the car will run great for a week or two, and it'll eventually start doing the same thing all over again (lots of engine shake, cold starts, difficulty accelerating in the morning). Sounds like an oxygen sensor? Misfire, maybe a camshaft position sensor? Fuel filter? Post it on VWvortex. Could be your cat is bad, my dad's 97' 7-series had misfire codes and engine shake, drove it like that for a year, finally brought it in, new plugs and tons of diagnosis later, turned out to be a plugged cat, with only 60k.
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Sep 12, 2010 23:07
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