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veekie posted:So basically, a quick fix would be A) increasing the cost of additional natural weapons, B)lowering the number of natural weapons they can have at each level. Well that might go a long way but summoners have quite a few serious advantages over other classes that are out of whack
I'm not saying all of these should be nuked and I'd advise being careful against over-nerfing the class. I just want to point out that it's not only the number of natural attacks an eidolon gets that make Summoner far out of balance with any other class. They are an exceptionally good class any way you slice it.
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Sep 13, 2010 14:22
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Yeah, I'm probably going to disallow it in the short-term until I become fully versed in the mechanics. My 5th player has finally returned from whatever strange realm he was trapped in for the last month and has decided he wants to play a summoner in my Kingmaker game. Unfortunately, this guy is the single greatest optimizer I have ever met. He is a GREAT roleplayer, and an all around nice dude, but he is able to find absurd combos without even breaking a sweat. Therefore the idea of letting him play a summoner is kind of scary.
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Sep 13, 2010 15:05
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Yeah, summoners are basically an arcane version of Druids, in terms of power and flexibility.
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Sep 13, 2010 16:37
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grah posted:[*] Summoners cast arcane spells but for some reason completely ignore the fail chance if they're wearing light armor. quote:[*] Summoners can change the way they've allocated the eidolon's evolution points at each level, offering them a high degree of versatility. Evolution surge is also available early on, offering temporary evolutions that they can use in any way they please, and at later levels the Transmogrify spell means they can be changed around an additional time per day, albeit at some gp cost. quote:[*] Life link means that a summoner with decent Constitution can donate tons of hp to his eidolon while standing (likely invisibly, or flying somewhere) safely away from the fray, making his eidolon far more vital than anything at its level ought to be. quote:[*] Besides having all the summon monster spells on their spell list, summoners get the summon monster spells as spell like abilities and the duration is minutes per level instead of rounds. This ability scales with level.
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Sep 13, 2010 17:52
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veekie posted:<foo> To clarify I pretty much agree with you and I don't think any of those powers are really terrible by themselves. Some are quite good as you noted, and some are useful but far from overwhelming. I think that the totality of the abilities summoners have, in addition to their eidolons, makes them far and away better than any other class in Pathfinder, in a way that hurts game balance. Also, for partial casters they have a pretty solid spell list. Haste is a 2nd level spell for them instead of 3rd (unless that's been errata'd?) and they also gain the summon monster spells at an increased clip--Summon Monster I-III are 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells as normal, but summon monster V is a 4th level spell for summoners, VII is a fifth level spell, and IX is a sixth level spell.
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Sep 13, 2010 22:49
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That's because they only get 6 levels of spells. If you work out the level/spell level progression it's pretty similar. The problem is that the combination of the summoner PLUS the eidolon makes an incredibly powerful duo. Bull's Strength the eidolon, Enlarge Person if it's bipedal, then enlarge yourself. Or forgo the enlarge on the eidolon and use evolution surge to make it large for 1minute/level. It's pretty silly how powerful it is. It was so powerful that I, as a person who always makes characters as combat effective as possible(because I'm a giant jerk), felt bad because if I managed to land more than two of my 6 attacks a round(5 on the pet plus mine) that it pretty much was guaranteed to die.
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Sep 13, 2010 23:04
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Primary issue is still the number of attacks the Eidolon can churn out, so fixing that solves most of it. Maybe if you made the master 1/2 BAB to reinforce the concept of a minion-master instead of double teaming.
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Sep 14, 2010 10:15
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Ugh. This is the response I got from my 5th player. He kind of has a point...My player posted:It's a pick your poison thing, I think. I've looked at summoners and wizards alike in pathfinder, and both can be pretty scary. The summoner trades 7-9th level spells for a lingering tank like buddy and improved hp, the wizard is well, a wizard. If you'd prefer I do not play a summoner, I'll play a wizard: conjurer instead, elf. Hah. So I guess the question is. Is a conjurer wizard any less insane than the summoner?
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Sep 16, 2010 04:15
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Ugh. This is the response I got from my 5th player. He kind of has a point... Well he's probably going to take augmented summoning just as soon as he can and the increased duration on summons for a conjuration wizard will make him quite potent. If you're allowing it he'll probably even take the teleportation focused school since acid dart is kinda crap and shift is amazing for a wizard. Throw in improved familiar and by the mid levels he's still got a lot of attacks and can overwhelm many opponents. Even so I think at the levels at which most campaigns take place this will still be far more manageable than a Summoner would be. He doesn't have a permanent summon that's more powerful than any of the other PCs in the party and ignore the most important part of protection from/magic circle against (alignment) spells. He has to deal with all of the typical pros and cons of wizarddom. In the very high levels wizards might still outclass summoners but I'm not absolutely sure, but if you've got a level 20 party balance probably went out the window long ago anyway.
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Sep 16, 2010 05:05
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Kingmaker goes from level 1 to roughly level 16. I'm seriously torn here. In every game he plays in, he makes these really efficient characters, but I've never seen him play a wizard. I'm actually scared because I'm not super mechanically-minded and I can't even begin to predict what a wizard in his hands could do.
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Sep 16, 2010 05:11
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Kingmaker goes from level 1 to roughly level 16. I'm seriously torn here. In every game he plays in, he makes these really efficient characters, but I've never seen him play a wizard. I'm actually scared because I'm not super mechanically-minded and I can't even begin to predict what a wizard in his hands could do. Everything. If you haven't looked into it Trailblazer is basically a big book of houserules for 3.5/pathfinder, some of them are intensely good and can work a little toward keeping a wizard marginally in line with the rest of the party. Its yet more work for the GM, but you already agreed to that by running a 3.x based game so...
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Sep 16, 2010 06:13
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The basic point he is trying to make with that message is that he could probably break the game using only core rules without breaking a sweat, so banning certain classes isn't going to change that. I know that makes him sound like a douche, but he won't actually break that game because he is a nice dude. So basically the question I have to mull over is which is going to be more painful for me? A summoner or a wizard? EDIT: I have Trailblazer, but considering the pile of rules I'll be introducing just with the Kingdom-making aspects of the adventure path, I don't want to throw even more at my players. They aren't all super crunch monkeys like player 5.
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Sep 16, 2010 06:26
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Anonymous Zebra posted:So basically the question I have to mull over is which is going to be more painful for me? A summoner or a wizard? Besides, it's easy to nerf the summoner, just reduce the maximum number of natural weapons the Eidolon can have.
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Sep 16, 2010 08:44
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Anonymous Zebra posted:The basic point he is trying to make with that message is that he could probably break the game using only core rules without breaking a sweat, so banning certain classes isn't going to change that. I know that makes him sound like a douche, but he won't actually break that game because he is a nice dude. What are players 1-4 playing, thats a good way to see if you need to deal with an ornery wizard, and the houserules you will need to keep him under control, or a brokenly good summoner who if the other players are sufficiently built, you will just need to make encounters harder for.
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Sep 16, 2010 09:56
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Or just throw the occasional high-AC monster at the party - it's not like his attack bonuses are great
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Sep 16, 2010 15:14
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The other players are a wizard, an alchemist, a ranger, and a monk. The 6th player coming in is likely player a martial class of some type. I re-read the arguments from a few pages back...is a proper solution to just make the extra claws a secondary attack?
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Sep 16, 2010 15:15
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veekie posted:Besides, it's easy to nerf the summoner, just reduce the maximum number of natural weapons the Eidolon can have. The eidolon also disappears when the summoner is unconscious--including sleeping. Obviously if you play on this all the time to keep the eidolon out of the picture you're just being a dick to the summoner's player. However if you do see the summoner taking over the game, throwing in a sleepytime ambush or a strong banishing spell or magical sleep effect is a good way to emphasize that the summoner does in fact need the rest of the party, and give everyone else a chance to shine. I still think up until about level 10 the wizard is more manageable but after that its a high level wizard and no one knows at all. edit: making this readable
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Sep 16, 2010 15:32
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veekie posted:Summoner would be far easier to deal with by a mile, you can deal with an extra fighter in the party, but a wizard player who's ornery about not being allowed to play his preferred class and who knows what hes doing can turn your world upside down. A thousand times this. A conjurer wizard is hell to deal with if he's trying to make a point. It's not going to be about summoning monsters, it's going to be about save or suck spells every encounter that pretty much takes someone out of the fight if they fail. Glitterdust blinds in an area and attacks Will, Grease can ruin someone's day for a first level spell, and when they dip into Transmutation for Slow it's pretty much good game. Those are just 3 ridiculously crippling spells for their level, all of which are in an area and two of which attack Will and are from the conjuration school. Depending on the party make up, I'd probably let him play the Summoner as from what I read about them here, it seems much easier to nerf in game without going to ridiculous extremes like anti magic zones. I know if was a monster and was faced with normal looking people accompanied by a crazy looking Eidolon, I'd probably pile on the Eidolon, at least until I recognized that it was being controlled by the summoner. Of course, I've played Pathfinder all of 3 times, so a lot of my experience is from 3.5 and your results may vary. Hell, some of the spells I mentioned may not be as good as they were in 3.5, but I remember them being a terrific headache for our GM.
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Sep 16, 2010 16:56
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veekie posted:Besides, it's easy to nerf the summoner, just reduce the maximum number of natural weapons the Eidolon can have. Don't do this. It takes the class from OP to crippled. What you can instead do is tweak the point costs of things like energy attacks, or make energy attacks only affect one pair of claws. You may also consider that if you don't let him have as many natural attacks, he'll just focus on making that one/those two as harsh as possible. Can't get an extra set of claws? Improved damage. Still can't? energy attacks is only two points. Still can't? give the attack reach/grab for free grapples. Still can't? How about adding poison that attacks con? Just three points! It's almost better to have the extra attacks than all the extra poo poo tied to just two attacks. Bottom line is it's a pretty potent class, and if you try to rein it in, and aren't extremely careful how you do it, a player who is good with mechanics can rip it apart.
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Sep 16, 2010 17:33
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I must play with a strange group of people; none of us have really complained or made a point about a wizard (or cleric or druid) being overpowered. Yes, we all realize that they are significantly more powerful than other classes, but that aside, every game our fighter/monk/what have you has been an integral part of the party. I've never felt as a player that any one character "shined" more than any other, and I've never felt as a DM that the wizard's spellcasting was any more important than a fighter sticking himself in the middle of combat to "soak" hits. Hell, in the last two games that I've been involved with, the fighter has been able to consistently pump out huge damage, keeping on par with the wizards in most instances when focusing upon a single target. TL;DR--Play with your best friends, don't be afraid to rely on their abilities, and don't worry so much about one playing a stronger class; he'll need help sooner or later. As a DM, make sure he knows that while not being a dick. So, pretty much what everyone else has said.
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Sep 17, 2010 04:37
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Tactical Bonnet posted:You may also consider that if you don't let him have as many natural attacks, he'll just focus on making that one/those two as harsh as possible. Can't get an extra set of claws? Improved damage. Still can't? energy attacks is only two points. Still can't? give the attack reach/grab for free grapples. Still can't? How about adding poison that attacks con? Just three points! On their own they aren't THAT powerful, it's multiple natural weapons stacked with improved damage/special effects/buffs, which you know they can afford both if they skimp on the fancy extras. Con poison on 2 claws is painful, Con poison on 10 claws is a death sentence. Bonus energy damage is likewise a lot cheaper off buff spells, and if you bought the extra nat weapons, get an amulet of mighty fists enchanted with additional damage. In the opposite direction, the summoner is more than his Eidolon, he is also a 3/4 BAB class with solid buffs available, and some armor that has a fast Summon Monster SLA, it'd weaken him, but cripple? Perhaps relative to a wizard going full bore, yes. Of course the trick is to see how many additional natural weapons is 'safe'. More or the same amount of attacks than a two weapon fighter of the same level is probably bad. Less attacks than a 2H fighter of the same level is likewise problematic. After all, while natural weapon attacks do not suffer from iterative penalties, they miss out on some of the perks of a manufactured weapon.
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Sep 17, 2010 20:51
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So the Ultimate Magic playtest begins today. I'm actually considering sending a copy of the Magus pdf to my player just to see if he takes it over the summoner.
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Sep 20, 2010 18:25
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Reading this thread makes me want to join the local Pathfinder game and roll up a Summoner. It sounds like a lot of fun.
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Sep 20, 2010 20:24
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It's fun times.
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Sep 20, 2010 20:37
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edit: never mind
bewilderment fucked around with this message at 10:08 on Sep 21, 2010 |
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Sep 21, 2010 09:09
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Hahaha, what the poo poo is this?
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Sep 21, 2010 20:00
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A soon to be dead robot thing with a human brain.
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Sep 21, 2010 20:23
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Hahaha, what the poo poo is this? The googly eyes really make this. Great stuff. I will say this about Pathfinder: the majority of art I've seen is quality.
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Sep 21, 2010 20:27
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Where did he get the plastic tubing?
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Sep 21, 2010 20:27
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Pig intestines.
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Sep 21, 2010 20:32
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The syringe fingers are what really caught my eye. I noticed the big blue one first, and then I saw that ALL of it's fingers were needles and had to laugh.
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Sep 21, 2010 20:36
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I want rules for playing this dude as a character. Labforged.
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Sep 21, 2010 21:10
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I'd guess it's some poorly assembled alchemical golem. Or a drugforged. "C-c-c'mon, baby, d-don't deny Mr. Roboto the j-j-juice!"
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Sep 21, 2010 22:05
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Okay, weirdness from my 5th player continues. He still hasn't arrived in town yet so all my contact with him is through email. This is always fun because he never responds to email, or phone calls, or people knocking on his door....ever. In any case, he sent me a flurry of emails over the last few days which were just different summoner builds showing his plans from level 1 to 20. I didn't respond yet, because I'm busy as hell, but then I got a new email today.quote:Since the caster and the warforged won't likely work, given circumstances, I decided to see what I could do with a straight fighter build. I don't know what the gently caress. The only MAJOR change in my game is that I've removed the "Big Six" magic items and replaced them with a hero point system that would keep their power levels the same, but would also leave all their slots open for more interesting magic items. If anyone gets hosed by this, it would be fighters since casters would still be...casters. Ugh. EDIT: A lot of his emails are really hard to read because he writes in pure "optimizer" mode all the time. So I might have missed something in there.
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Sep 26, 2010 07:02
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The hell are the "big six" items? The stat increasing ones?
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Sep 26, 2010 10:45
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Sole.Sushi posted:The hell are the "big six" items? The stat increasing ones? The "big six" items come from here, and are * Magic weapon * Magic armor & shield * Ring of protection * Cloak of resistance * Amulet of natural armor * Ability-score boosters Basically, stuff that almost everyone gets but is boring.
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Sep 26, 2010 16:05
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Hahaha, what the poo poo is this? how the gently caress could this possibly be construed as a fantasy creature
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Sep 26, 2010 16:06
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Piell posted:The "big six" items come from here, and are I don't see Ring of Invisibility or Boots of Spiderclimb, list sucks 
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Sep 26, 2010 16:51
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Okay, weirdness from my 5th player continues. He still hasn't arrived in town yet so all my contact with him is through email. This is always fun because he never responds to email, or phone calls, or people knocking on his door....ever. In any case, he sent me a flurry of emails over the last few days which were just different summoner builds showing his plans from level 1 to 20. I didn't respond yet, because I'm busy as hell, but then I got a new email today. Maybe you shouldn't be playing with this guy...
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Sep 26, 2010 17:17
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Hah, I've actually been playing with him for years and he is a great player. A lot of this weirdness is coming from that fact that he has been out of town for a long time and keeps saying that he is going to be coming back "next week". It's really easy to talk with him in person, but he is famously difficult to communicate with in any other way. He never answers emails, his phone always goes to voice mail, if you talk to him over an IM program he never responds. It's weird as gently caress, and it makes it really hard for me to figure out what he is trying to say when he finally does email me. He must post a lot on optimizer boards, because his characters are written up in some short-hand that makes it somewhat hard to translate. I'm used to players giving me their race/class combo, some stats and a short story. He sends the character from level 1-20, all the feats he'll take, every magic item he plans to buy, the buffs he'll be using at level 5, level 10, level 16, etc, the stats of his character when under these buffs....and then my eyes just glaze over because all I wanted to know what his character's name. None of this is a problem in person, because he is perfectly normal then. In any case, the decision to remove the "Big Six" was discussed around the table with my other 4 players, so he obviously didn't know about it until one of them emailed the whole group for a clarification about it. All I can think is that maybe losing the ability to buy items hosed with his character concept that he worked on and he doesn't even want to think up a new one.
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Sep 26, 2010 18:18
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