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Removed the nanobots, sure. How much healing was involved in that, 
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Oct 3, 2010 05:28
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Didn't the Mon Calamari Jedi heal her though? Yeah but she was still pretty hosed up after Cilghal healed her. At least she lasted longer than some of the other Rebel leaders. Crix Madine got gunned down in Darksaber, which is as bad as the book itself. Really being featured in a book with Callista in it is an insult alone.
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Oct 3, 2010 05:33
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All I know is the oldest any of the 3 have looked is (in my opinion) Han on the cover of Vortex. I mean Leia was on the cover of Abyss and she looked the same as ROTJ leia.
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Oct 3, 2010 07:00
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I've just suggested to my wife that our son is now old enough to "get" Star Wars and that we should watch them with him. "Ah, but should we show them in order?" she asked "Well, yeah, Star Wars, Empire, Jedi. " "No, I meant episode 1, 2, 3..." "No, see, this is supposed to be something awesome I share with my offspring, not something he'll look back on as 'the first time I heard daddy threaten George Lucas' life'" Seriously, would any of you show a kid episode one and expect them to want to see any more of it?
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Oct 3, 2010 17:13
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Fil5000 posted:Seriously, would any of you show a kid episode one and expect them to want to see any more of it? Kids are dumb these days, with their iCarlies and that one fat kid/skinny kid show.
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Oct 3, 2010 17:27
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Does Order 66 bother the poo poo out of anyone else? The idea makes sense but not the way it was handled, and Cody in particular bugs me because it's like welp gently caress all the time we've spent together, time to die Obi-wan. I also don't get why Bail Organa is allowed to leave by Appo...
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Oct 3, 2010 17:45
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Kenshirou posted:Does Order 66 bother the poo poo out of anyone else? The idea makes sense but not the way it was handled, and Cody in particular bugs me because it's like welp gently caress all the time we've spent together, time to die Obi-wan. I also don't get why Bail Organa is allowed to leave by Appo... Not to say that it isn't poorly executed, because it is, but: a) The clones development included a poo poo ton of behaviour programming. It wasn't exactly hardwired into their brains, but obeying the Chancellor was pretty much like breathing to them, even the cool ones. b) Same reason Palpatine waited almost 20 years to dissolve the senate, I suspect. He probably figured that arresting or killing Organa, a popular senator from a pacifist world, would have a detrimental effect on Palpatine's popularity, and he needed to be as universally beloved as possible in the early days of a fledgling empire.
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Oct 3, 2010 17:58
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I suppose, but why were there deserters then? I mean you'd think that the people that worked so closely with the Jedi would be the ones to leave.
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Oct 3, 2010 18:06
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Kenshirou posted:Does Order 66 bother the poo poo out of anyone else? The idea makes sense but not the way it was handled, and Cody in particular bugs me because it's like welp gently caress all the time we've spent together, time to die Obi-wan. To be honest, George Lucas' whole morality involving the clones and their behavior bothers me. He includes an army of clones because they're expendable. You can have these guys killed left and right and it apparently doesn't matter since they're all essentially Jango Fett, a very weak antagonist. The problem is that they all have personalities. It doesn't matter that they're all that one Kiwi, the writers gave them individual names, personalities, different appearances, and they bond with characters in the other media. Anything and everything involving them as characters is essentially pissed away in one order by the antagonist. There's also the fact that a society of warrior monks who possess precognitive abilities among a myriad of other powers fail to see this double cross coming. They pretty much accept this army of clones that literally came out of nowhere and whose backstory was questioned from the start. No one bothers to look over any of their training at all or the process in which they are created. The fact that Obi Wan was almost killed by the guy they're based on, who was actually working for the Separatists, or the fact that the Jedi Master who supposedly ordered their construction had no reason to order such a thing and most likely could not have done such never seems to come up after the trip to Kamino. They just said "lets rock and roll" and then fought a meaningless war over intergalactic commerce. You really didn't even have to have precognitive abilities to know that something was up so it just makes poo poo even more ridiculous. EDIT: It should also be noted that the loving army was ready when Obi Wan came, almost as if someone planned for the Jedi to need such an army at that exact time. No one thinks this is suspicious though because they're too busy fighting a stupid war of expendable soldiers. Bail Organa just laments arming the Republic but never actually starts putting poo poo together because no one in the Old Republic is capable of simple deductive reasoning. RocknRollaAyatollah fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Oct 3, 2010 |
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Oct 3, 2010 18:23
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:To be honest, George Lucas' whole morality involving the clones and their behavior bothers me. He includes an army of clones because they're expendable. You can have these guys killed left and right as well and it apparently doesn't matter since they're all essentially Jango Fett, a very weak antagonist. The problem is that they all have personalities. It doesn't matter that they're all that one Kiwi, the writers gave them individual names, personalities, different appearances, and they bond with characters in the other media. Anything and everything involving them as characters is essentially pissed away in one order by the antagonist. You could say that "the dark side was clouding their vision"... Or more realistically "George loving Lucas"
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Oct 3, 2010 18:30
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Hallowed posted:You could say that "the dark side was clouding their vision"... I honestly just wanted to say "George Lucas doesn't know how to tell a loving story" but I thought I would analyse it to show how far this hole goes.
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Oct 3, 2010 18:41
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Hallowed posted:You could say that "the dark side was clouding their vision"... Doesn't Windu say that he "sense[s] a plot to destroy the Jedi" in Ep3? Either way it is incredibly retarded that Yoda was like the only one that seemed sort of prepared for it. Watching some of the scenes where the Jedi are killed, it's almost comedic how easily they die. The Swoop scene in particular... I mean they pull back and she doesn't think something's gone wrong? The Clone Army backstory is so convoluted that it took me a lot of reading to figure out what was going on there and I'm still not entirely sure what happened. Dooku ordered the clones using a false identity of a dead Jedi for use with the Separatists. And then of course in Ep2 Obi-wan found them by chance through researching some data that was erased, they were handed over the Jedi/Republic. Is this correct? If not, I hope someone can give more details because it always confused me and it was only recently that I read more into it and just assumed that nobody had covered it in the books.
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Oct 3, 2010 18:45
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It's funny how much better the prequel EU is over the movies themselves.
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Oct 3, 2010 19:02
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:It's funny how much better the prequel EU is over the movies themselves. The Clone Wars could be so much more interesting and different if the EU writers had been allowed to gently caress with it before the PT. When Obi-wan mentions them in A New Hope I always imagined something that was nothing like what we got.
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Oct 3, 2010 19:19
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Hey I'm trying to find a youtube someone did of some Star Wars edits, specifically where Han Solo is horribly edited to be walking away from Greedo after he shoots him or before. I swear it exists and a buddy of mine swore thats what Han Solo SHOULD have done.
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Oct 3, 2010 20:06
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Fil5000 posted:Seriously, would any of you show a kid episode one and expect them to want to see any more of it? I'd sooner show kids the prequels when they're young, so that they'll at least be able to get some enjoyment out of the flashy visuals and poop jokes - they're the target audience, after all. Then when they're a little bit older they can graduate to the real trilogy.
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Oct 3, 2010 20:40
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Kenshirou posted:Does Order 66 bother the poo poo out of anyone else? The idea makes sense but not the way it was handled, and Cody in particular bugs me because it's like welp gently caress all the time we've spent together, time to die Obi-wan. I also don't get why Bail Organa is allowed to leave by Appo... I might be wrong but wasn't there something in the novelization where internally he goes "Well that explosion could have killed him, but probably didn't and I'm sure not going to send anyone to look for the body, so if anyone asks, he's dead!"
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Oct 3, 2010 21:15
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Der Luftwaffle posted:I might be wrong but wasn't there something in the novelization where internally he goes "Well that explosion could have killed him, but probably didn't and I'm sure not going to send anyone to look for the body, so if anyone asks, he's dead!" I haven't read the novelizations of the PT so I'm not sure, but even still it just seemed kind of dumb to me, even if there was some sort of motivating factor. I mean as he arrives and when he escapes both times the commander stops his men from shooting him, and whether or not it's because Appo feels he "owes" Organa or if he just didn't care, either way it just seems like a weird scene that bothers me.
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Oct 3, 2010 21:26
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Why would they kill Organa?
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Oct 3, 2010 21:41
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Azzmo posted:Why would they kill Organa? Better question: Why wouldn't Palpatine kill Organa after he found out he was leading the Rebels with Leia in TFU? Yes we have discussed this a million times but I will never resist a good old Starkiller bashing.
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Oct 3, 2010 21:42
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Better question: Why wouldn't Palpatine kill Organa after he found out he was leading the Rebels with Leia in TFU? Real world answer: people who work at a video game studio put together a lazy story composed of flash bang bigger better badder! storytelling techniques. The projects sole purpose was to make money and they did not care about silly things like consistency or legitimacy. In-Universe answer: Perhaps Palps wanted the Rebellion to exist in order to vet out his potential enemies?
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Oct 3, 2010 21:49
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Azzmo posted:Why would they kill Organa? Why not? They don't want any witnesses of what's going, let alone the fact that they literally just kill a Jedi in front of him. Appo also says "It's okay, let him go" so the other troopers obviously thought it would be necessary so it's not really a matter of why they would.
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Oct 3, 2010 21:51
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I hadn't really thought about how Order 66 somewhat undermines the whole "clones are living, thinking people and the Jedi are monsters for using them as a slave army" argument. I mean, as clones, you'd expect them to be exactly like natural-born people, albeit with some rather extreme training, but EXECUTE ORDER 66 whoops nope they're essentially just sophisticated, squishy droids. No free will and programmable to do whatever you want. It's still an ethical minefield, but it moves them a lot closer to the "manufactured tool" end of the spectrum.
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Oct 3, 2010 21:56
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Kenshirou posted:Why not? They don't want any witnesses of what's going, let alone the fact that they literally just kill a Jedi in front of him. Appo also says "It's okay, let him go" so the other troopers obviously thought it would be necessary so it's not really a matter of why they would. If they kill the senator from one of the more prominent planets in the galaxy they're going to have a lot more political fallout than if they just spin the story of a Jedi uprising. Plus the clones aren't exactly cackling villains - they seemed to believed they were protecting the Republic. No reason for them to assassinate a senator. edit: Wingnut Ninja posted:I hadn't really thought about how Order 66 somewhat undermines the whole "clones are living, thinking people and the Jedi are monsters for using them as a slave army" argument. I mean, as clones, you'd expect them to be exactly like natural-born people, albeit with some rather extreme training, but EXECUTE ORDER 66 whoops nope they're essentially just sophisticated, squishy droids. No free will and programmable to do whatever you want. It's still an ethical minefield, but it moves them a lot closer to the "manufactured tool" end of the spectrum. If you view them as protectors of the Republic, raised and trained to trust the leadership of the Republic explicitly and to the exclusion of even their own perceptions, they become slightly less robot-like. It's really not much different from the way military forces in our world have done some things that, in retrospect, were heinous and inexplicable. Their orders from higher up make enough sense at the time that they follow through. Azzmo fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Oct 3, 2010 |
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Oct 3, 2010 21:58
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Wingnut Ninja posted:I hadn't really thought about how Order 66 somewhat undermines the whole "clones are living, thinking people and the Jedi are monsters for using them as a slave army" argument. I mean, as clones, you'd expect them to be exactly like natural-born people, albeit with some rather extreme training, but EXECUTE ORDER 66 whoops nope they're essentially just sophisticated, squishy droids. No free will and programmable to do whatever you want. It's still an ethical minefield, but it moves them a lot closer to the "manufactured tool" end of the spectrum. That's what also makes TCW cartoon so pointless in a sense. I mean they're gonna spend 5 years building up these characters that will betray their friends and comrades just because of this one thing.
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Oct 3, 2010 21:59
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Kenshirou posted:That's what also makes TCW cartoon so pointless in a sense. I mean they're gonna spend 5 years building up these characters that will betray their friends and comrades just because of this one thing. I'm sure the Clone Wars will be like MASH, last as many seasons as they need it to. They will also probably end it before Revenge of the Sith because it's a children's show and not the kind that is really written for teenagers and manchildren. So can someone explain to me how Daala became head of the Galactic Republic? That just seems kind of ridiculous and even more so than the EU usually is.
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Oct 3, 2010 23:18
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:So can someone explain to me how Daala became head of the Galactic Republic? That just seems kind of ridiculous and even more so than the EU usually is. I'm curious as well. I only read the stuff that takes place around or slightly before/after the OT so I know very little about her other than what I gleamed from the wiki.
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Oct 3, 2010 23:27
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:
They literally had her come out of nowhere (politically) at the end of LotF to take power. I don't even think there was a vote - it seemed like a "We should have Daala as Chief of State!" So it was basically one last gently caress you to the people who wasted their time reading LotF. It's also symptomatic of the reason I no longer read Star Wars books, that being a subtle contempt towards the readers and the franchise on the part of the authors.
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Oct 3, 2010 23:43
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Azzmo posted:They literally had her come out of nowhere (politically) at the end of LotF to take power. I don't even think there was a vote - it seemed like a "We should have Daala as Chief of State!" So it was basically one last gently caress you to the people who wasted their time reading LotF. It's also symptomatic of the reason I no longer read Star Wars books, that being a subtle contempt towards the readers and the franchise on the part of the authors. Are there any good books that take place during these time periods that aren't focused on Jedis? I think part of my inability to read any of that poo poo is because it always seems focused on Jedi and Sith.
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Oct 3, 2010 23:55
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Kenshirou posted:Are there any good books that take place during these time periods that aren't focused on Jedis? I think part of my inability to read any of that poo poo is because it always seems focused on Jedi and Sith. "These time periods" being post New Jedi Order? I stopped after LotF so I don't know if any of the stuff that's been released to continue the timeline has been good. Supposedly Millenium Falcon was ok.
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Oct 4, 2010 00:00
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Azzmo posted:"These time periods" being post New Jedi Order? I stopped after LotF so I don't know if any of the stuff that's been released to continue the timeline has been good. Supposedly Millenium Falcon was ok. I was looking at that one, actually. Generally I just get the audiobooks on Audible and they have a lot of the recent ones now, just not sure what's good and what's not other than what I read on here.
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Oct 4, 2010 00:08
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Every time I come back to this thread it seems that everybody has become a bit more bitter and jaded and plain ol' tired of all these Star Wars. How much longer until George Lucas gets the ABSOLUTE FUCKER treatment that George R.R. Martin gets over in the Bad Thread in the Book Barn? Because this thread's hate is strong.  Azzmo posted:They literally had her come out of nowhere (politically) at the end of LotF to take power. I don't even think there was a vote - it seemed like a "We should have Daala as Chief of State!" So it was basically one last gently caress you to the people who wasted their time reading LotF. It's also symptomatic of the reason I no longer read Star Wars books, that being a subtle contempt towards the readers and the franchise on the part of the authors. Yeah, LotF killed my last remaining interest in the books, too. Sometimes I daydream about burning those novels along with the Swarm War trilogy but really nothing can take that poo poo back. It is permanently etched into my brain. I can't remember important stuff like when the next department meeting is but hey, awful Star Wars trivia will stick around forever!
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Oct 4, 2010 02:58
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I just moved into a new house and I realized I really don't like half of all the Star Wars books I've collected since childhood. Anybody want, like, Children of the Jedi or Darksaber or Truce at Bakura? I guess I could make a full list later.
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Oct 4, 2010 03:15
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Wingnut Ninja posted:I hadn't really thought about how Order 66 somewhat undermines the whole "clones are living, thinking people and the Jedi are monsters for using them as a slave army" argument. I mean, as clones, you'd expect them to be exactly like natural-born people, albeit with some rather extreme training, but EXECUTE ORDER 66 whoops nope they're essentially just sophisticated, squishy droids. No free will and programmable to do whatever you want. It's still an ethical minefield, but it moves them a lot closer to the "manufactured tool" end of the spectrum. Unsurprisingly, Karen Traviss is as far as I know the only one whose works argued that there was no subconscious training in the clones to program them to accept Order 66. They did it because they were all such good soldiers and knew they had to execute Order 66 to wipe out the Jedi because their commanders told them to (hmm...). This is even after it was stated by Stover that the clones being programmed to obey came from Lucas himself, not to mention how ever other author assumed the clones were also. So again basically just boiling it down to how the hell did Lucasfilm let Traviss get away with this poo poo? RocknRollaAyatollah posted:So can someone explain to me how Daala became head of the Galactic Republic? That just seems kind of ridiculous and even more so than the EU usually is. I think Denning actually said that the reason he made Daala the Chief of State because "no one else made sense in the role." Which shows three things: 1) In-universe this of course is total bullshit considering that there was an entire Senate, Galactic Alliance officer corps, diplomats, cabinet officials, etc., all of who, would obviously made "more sense" than an unreconstructed Imperial warlord who was charged with war crimes for terror bombing civilians and trying to destroy Coruscant. 2) It really highlights the lack of the current EU in building up background characters outside of the Big Three, their families, and the Jedi Council members. If they had decided to keep building up their casts instead of killing them off and focusing on the same movie characters they wouldn't have had this severe lack of supporters to force them to rely on a character who hadn't been in a book in 15 years coming back out of nowhere to take over. 3) Denning is a loving hack
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Oct 4, 2010 03:32
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Traxus IV posted:Every time I come back to this thread it seems that everybody has become a bit more bitter and jaded and plain ol' tired of all these Star Wars. How much longer until George Lucas gets the ABSOLUTE FUCKER treatment that George R.R. Martin gets over in the Bad Thread in the Book Barn? Honestly for as much as I complain about the EU and Lucas, I have a lot of fond memories of reading the books and watching the original trilogy in my youth. You can still enjoy the franchise regardless of Lucas, Traviss, Hambly, Denning, and any other contributor bent on ruining the franchise. It's honestly become such an entity that you can enjoy it for what it is without the mistakes of contributors, even the man who created it. I think Lucas is universally reviled, especially after Crystal Skull. I only know of one person who defends the prequel's and to be honest he kind of has terrible taste in everything aside from a few things. Chairman Capone posted:I think Denning actually said that the reason he made Daala the Chief of State because "no one else made sense in the role." Which shows three things: "Hey guys, this chick is not only a genocidal maniac but she also hosed Grand Moff Tarkin to get to where she is. We should make her the chief of state." Ugh, that's not even trying. Maybe another author will come in and write about the backroom dealing she did or something. Aren't Jaina and Jagged Fel supposed to start the new royal family of the Legacy era Empire anyways? RocknRollaAyatollah fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Oct 4, 2010 |
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Oct 4, 2010 05:13
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:Aren't Jaina and Jagged Fel supposed to start the new royal family of the Legacy era Empire anyways? Jagged is the first Fel Emperor (the grandfather of the emperor Roan Fel who's in the comic). It's never been said in-universe that Jaina is supposed to have been Jag's wife but Jan Duursema (illustrator/co-creator of Legacy) has said in interviews that they for all intents and purposes assume that it's Jaina, but can't actually say so because Del Rey has reserved the whole Jaina-Jag relationship and are making it into a badly drawn-out soap opera.
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Oct 4, 2010 05:36
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The Jag thing is pretty much almost as bad as the Daala thing, because up till the moment where Daala was named Chief of State Jag was basically a fighter jock. Then he gets named to the head of the Imperial Remnant Moff Council.
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Oct 4, 2010 13:57
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Traxus IV posted:Every time I come back to this thread it seems that everybody has become a bit more bitter and jaded and plain ol' tired of all these Star Wars. How much longer until George Lucas gets the ABSOLUTE FUCKER treatment that George R.R. Martin gets over in the Bad Thread in the Book Barn? Hey, it's still completely enjoyable. I think the benefit of there being such a huge universe is the fact that there are so many fans. So I can easily find out which authors are horrible, and which ones I should actually pay attention to. It is in this way that I've managed to avoid reading ANY Denning or Traviss. I did read Truce at Bakura and listen to the audiobook of Courtship of Princess Leia - luckily, my only mistakes so far.
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Oct 4, 2010 14:07
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Anyone have and audiobook suggestions for newer books? Death Troopers looks pretty cool but I don't know much about it.
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Oct 4, 2010 14:19
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Denning's Forgotten Realms books are at least readable. Is his Star Wars EU stuff THAT bad?
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Oct 4, 2010 16:16
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