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Why are you going to law school?
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Oct 3, 2010 22:52
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evilweasel posted:Why are you going to law school? Something involving his wife and insecurity
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Oct 3, 2010 23:00
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Poop Faerie posted:work for a fortune 500 company and I'm now a corporate director with 3 teams reporting to me, a total of ~35 people. How much would you think my work experience will counter my GPA? Your work experience will not counter your GPA at all at any school. At all. Why in the hell would you want to go to law school if you already have a job that it sounds like half the people in the thread would kill a prostitute to have? I dunno if you've been paying attention through the past 4 or so iterations of this thread but it's not exactly raining employment for Southern Methodist (or any other) Law School grads.
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Oct 3, 2010 23:01
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Stop fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Jan 30, 2013 |
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Oct 3, 2010 23:05
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Poop Faerie posted:I apologize if this kind of thing has been discussed before, I've looked through the FAQ and tried to scan the thread for stuff about this, but haven't really seen anything. I'm not trying to be a dick and you're absolutely right to ask these questions, but no amount of work experience will counteract your GPA, nor would it do so to the extent that you would still be admitted, all things considered, to a school that would get you a job. Not a big money job, any job at all. To be fair that's like maybe 7 schools now (a mild exaggeration). On the other hand, your Duke connections may be strong enough to merit an application if you really feel like burning the 80 bucks. Though most familial stuff requires connection to the actual law school, I think. Stop posted:I think I just won the Law Thread Fantasy Baseball League. If it involved betting against the Yankees, gently caress you and die.
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Oct 3, 2010 23:52
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You guys really hit the nail on the head, I have this masculinity thing that, you know, I can't believe my wife is going to be so successful, she should be birthing and homemaking. I'm looking at dropping my career to take a flyer into an iffy job market because dammit, if the woman can make it work, I can do it better. In all honesty, I've wanted to do this for a while. The only reason I haven't gone before is because I didn't want to have both of us in school - debt for one person was enough for a time, but now that she's out and set up, I want to pursue what I've wanted to pursue for years. I know how the job market is right now. It's intimidating, and believe me, it's intimidating enough to think about leaving behind a steady paycheck and going back to school. I'm not taking this decision lightly by any means, my wife and I have talked about this for hours and luckily, she's supportive of me pursuing what I want. Thank you for the feedback on work experience offsetting undergrad GPA. I honestly had no idea what time out of school would do to degrade the part undergrad GPA would play into my application. I was thinking that time out would play a part, but only if I could demonstrate that I wasn't just sitting with a thumb up my rear end and that the real world was a slap in the face (which it was). My job sounds and looks better than it is. I've worked hard for what I've gotten, but I'm realistic - I know that I've hit a ceiling in my company, largely due to an incompetent (or maybe not - could be smart I guess) boss who takes anything positive and tacks her name on to it and finds a scapegoat on anything negative (I promise I'm not just whining or not recognizing a situation for what it is here). The industry that I'm in has never really interested my and is fairly niche. My time with this company has always been a means toward something else, and I've wanted to go to school for a while. I enjoy the work, I don't mind the hours at all, I've got the personality for it. I know it's a lovely job market and I'm hoping that it'll improve moving forward, but I'm not doing this for the paycheck. If I do well in school and I get it, awesome, but I understand that that's a crapshoot based on a lot of factors, a number of which I don't have control over. I do happen to be in a position, though, where I can shoot for something that I really want and have a safety net. Evilweasel, I want to go because I want to be a lawyer. I know that may sound stupid, but it's the truth. I've talked with lawyers, I've talked with law students (those that have been successful with finding employment, and those who haven't - I've talked with them through what their prospects are, and helped them make decisions when offers come around that they aren't interested in). I know about the hours, I know at least some of where frustrations with work are - stress, expectations of clients and partners, etc etc. I know my wife's success is extremely unusual, and I'm extremely proud of her, but I have no expectation at all that I can follow the same path. I know the market sucks for jobs, but it's one of these things that I want, REALLY want, and I don't want to keep thinking about doing it until I get to a point where it really just doesn't make sense anymore. /edit: The Warszawa, thank you for the input. I had no expectations that it would make enough of an impact for the top schools, but I'm thinking more for T1 schools where my LSAT puts me above the 75th percentile but my GPA, obviously, is low.
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Oct 3, 2010 23:58
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Stop fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Jan 30, 2013 |
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Oct 4, 2010 00:04
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Poop Faerie posted:You've written two gigantic walls of text and haven't said a single thing that would convince any normal person that law school is a good idea.
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Oct 4, 2010 00:42
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Poop Faerie posted:Evilweasel, I want to go because I want to be a lawyer. I know that may sound stupid, but it's the truth. I've talked with lawyers, I've talked with law students (those that have been successful with finding employment, and those who haven't - I've talked with them through what their prospects are, and helped them make decisions when offers come around that they aren't interested in). I know about the hours, I know at least some of where frustrations with work are - stress, expectations of clients and partners, etc etc. I know my wife's success is extremely unusual, and I'm extremely proud of her, but I have no expectation at all that I can follow the same path. I know the market sucks for jobs, but it's one of these things that I want, REALLY want, and I don't want to keep thinking about doing it until I get to a point where it really just doesn't make sense anymore. You've written one paragraph on this and about five on why you're better than your wife in your head (I bet she's thrilled about this already.) You also have numbers that mean SMU is your realistic top school - nothing higher, possibly even lower - and you are passing up a job where you manage 37 people to go work in an industry where you will never manage anyone ever again and that has a lower ceiling for around 98-99% of graduates (not even an exaggeration; out of SMU that might be too optimistic). To go along with this poo poo sandwich you will almost certainly get paid less after graduation than you do now, with $100-150K in loans to show for it. Were you expecting us to fall all over each other to confirm how much of a special snowflake you are? Because it ain't happenin'.
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Oct 4, 2010 00:56
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Poop Faerie posted:/edit: The Warszawa, thank you for the input. I had no expectations that it would make enough of an impact for the top schools, but I'm thinking more for T1 schools where my LSAT puts me above the 75th percentile but my GPA, obviously, is low. The top schools are the only ones who can afford to care. From the perspective of the law school, you do two things: 1)pay and 2)affect their rankings. Your success after school isn't as helpful for their rankings as letting in someone with slightly better numbers. The elite schools, as they're much more secure, can afford to look at soft factors because while we love that NYU dropped to #6 it doesn't actually matter to anyone but a Columbia person talking to an NYU person. For a T1 however, their rankings are much more precarious, and a drop in the rankings is a big deal. That means they have an interest in actively ignoring all soft factors in favor of pure numbers: because that impacts their rankings. Poop Faerie posted:and have a safety net. What's that? Are you planning on going at night, or do you assume that you can just get your old job back if things go south? evilweasel fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Oct 4, 2010 |
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Oct 4, 2010 00:58
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Never mind, forget it. Honestly, I was coming here for a "I plan on going (or at least applying), please give me some guidance on these things" and it's going in a direction I don't want to. I understand why, I know I'm getting defensive and rambling to try to make y'all understand, but it's not what I'm looking for. Thanks for the guidance.
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Oct 4, 2010 01:19
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Poop Faerie posted:Never mind, forget it. Honestly, I was coming here for a "I plan on going (or at least applying), please give me some guidance on these things" and it's going in a direction I don't want to. I understand why, I know I'm getting defensive and rambling to try to make y'all understand, but it's not what I'm looking for. Dude. Some people are being dicks but I think I was pretty straightforward in explaining why what you're thinking is a good idea is not a good idea. I'm not sure what you were expecting but the OP of this thread is probably the best and most informative of any OP on SA, and one of the better assessments of law school prospective available on the internet in general. That OP comes from the collective wisdom (and lack thereof) of all of us who regularly read and post in here. Your situation is not unique (nobody's is) and going to a school like SMU is rolling the dice of your future on a very risky proposition. Ask yourself just how much you hate what you're doing right now because once you get a law degree that line of work is closed to you for good as you will now be "overqualified" for it. I answered you initial question (as did a couple others) when I said that absolutely no schools care about anything other than your GPA and your LSAT. If you can get into Duke based on your connections, then by all means go; but make no mistake that paying full sticker even at a school like Duke is a losing proposition, especially if you've already got a decent job. People that say they have "always wanted to be a lawyer" have no idea what being a lawyer actually means. That may sound cynical, but I can say without hyperbole that I encounter very few genuinely happy people in this profession and the people that enjoy doing legal work are the kinds of people who enjoy basically anything. With very few exceptions it is the kind of job that involves hours of soul-deadening paper pushing, callow rear end-kissing and grovelling, and ultimately pointless mind-numbing attention to detail. Defleshed fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Oct 4, 2010 |
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Oct 4, 2010 01:30
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Poop Faerie posted:Never mind, forget it. Honestly, I was coming here for a "I plan on going (or at least applying), please give me some guidance on these things" and it's going in a direction I don't want to. I understand why, I know I'm getting defensive and rambling to try to make y'all understand, but it's not what I'm looking for. You can't complain about not getting guidance when every post has given you the exact same guidance: don't go.
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Oct 4, 2010 01:40
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Defleshed, I appreciated your input. You answered my question, and asked questions that I need to think about (and have been, a lot, for 2 years now). My frustration is more at the focus (and I've brought it on myself) on hashing that out here, and almost justifying my decision. I know the tone of the thread - that law school is a terrible idea in general, and an even worse idea with the job market the way it is - but it's something I feel very passionately about. I hate my job. Hate it. Need a change, and a big change. It's scary to think about leaving a paycheck behind and going back to school (or I could do part-time, though I honestly don't think I could give the time to law school that I'd want to to make the most of it with my current work schedule). Through all of that worry, I still feel really passionately that it's the right decision for me.
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Oct 4, 2010 01:41
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Go to culinary arts school, or join a karate club in your free time.
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Oct 4, 2010 01:43
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Which field of law in particular are you passionate about?
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Oct 4, 2010 01:44
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Poop Faerie posted:Defleshed, I appreciated your input. You answered my question, and asked questions that I need to think about (and have been, a lot, for 2 years now). My frustration is more at the focus (and I've brought it on myself) on hashing that out here, and almost justifying my decision. There's a loving train coming towards you get off the tracks what are you doing?
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Oct 4, 2010 01:44
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Poop Faerie posted:I know the tone of the thread - that law school is a terrible idea in general, and an even worse idea with the job market the way it is - but it's something I feel very passionately about. I hate my job. Hate it. Need a change, and a big change. I mean, I have a job, and so do some of the people questioning your decision because while it can be a good idea, it can be a bad one. What is it you dislike about your job? What types of jobs do you want that you'd be qualified for from your position, if you were to look for a new job right now?
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Oct 4, 2010 01:46
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Chakron posted:There's a loving train coming towards you get off the tracks what are you doing? I CAN'T HELP MYSELF I'M A DEER IN THE HEADLIGHTS! Evilweasel: I initially took my job because it was an application of my undergrad degree (Economics) with a more interesting (I guess?) focus than just rolling around with dollars and cents. If I were to take what I have right now, effectively my team does financial consulting - we're analyzing all areas of a business model, working with existing on-site teams and doing our own research to get an idea of why they're doing how they're doing, and providing and implementing strategies to improve market performance. Beyond managing that stuff, in my current job I'm running recruitment efforts for our office, and managing team development for people at 4 different positions below me as well as oversight of performance of their clients. I could likely parlay my work experience to go to an Accenture or something along those lines, but I dunno. Consulting just isn't my thing. There are specifics about my office that are frustrating (largely my boss, and my exposure to higher-ups above her suggest that it won't get any better if I did find a way out from under her, but other things) that I can get away from in another company doing similar work, but I'm just not that into it. I just never really see any real result in what I'm doing right now, beyond the training and seeing my team develop (which I'm fine with, but that's a small part of what I currently do). I could take what I currently do to like an Accenture or something along those lines (Bain or McKinsey likely would require MBA). In terms of what areas I'm interested, my biggest draw right now is litigation. I like the idea of sticking with needing to ensure that I know all angles of a case while proceeding and the need for attention to detail. Along those lines (although completely different area, I know) I'm also interested in transactional law. (/edit: I know this is very simplified view, if you want to talk about it more we can.)
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Oct 4, 2010 02:14
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Basically, my thinking is that you're going to have a lot more success in getting a job you like by directly leveraging your experience to get into a company doing something you find interesting. You'd probably be able to move outside the consulting field somewhere else in business, and that offers you more flexibility to keep hunting for the type of job you want. The thing with law is, once you're in a firm, there isn't a lot else to do: if you find you don't like litigation you're sort of hosed - and what you'll be doing isn't what you think you'll be doing. The partner gets to get involved with every aspect of the case. You, on the other hand, get to get very involved with detail #38 as an associate. You will not be getting to know all the details. More importantly: litigation cases settle. You're going to work for a year or two preparing something for trial and the case will get settled. If you don't like not seeing the results of your work, you are likely to wind up being very unhappy: as someone put it "most of litigation is about trying to pretend you don't know your work is going to be meaningless". You have to work like you're going to trial, but you know that you're not going to do that. I get why you're probably unhappy in your job, but I think with the experience you have you've got a lot more options than law school for getting the sort of job you want, and it's foolish to go to law school without exploring those because they're more likely to work out, much cheaper, and you foreclose them a lot by going to law school. If you go to law school and don't have a job when you graduate, you're "a lawyer from a mediocre school who can't get a law job", not "a corporate director with three teams reporting to you at a Fortune 500 company" if you look outside the law.
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Oct 4, 2010 02:35
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evilweasel posted:Basically, my thinking is that you're going to have a lot more success in getting a job you like by directly leveraging your experience to get into a company doing something you find interesting. You'd probably be able to move outside the consulting field somewhere else in business, and that offers you more flexibility to keep hunting for the type of job you want. Yes, this exactly. Go talk to a few headhunters and see what other options you have first, because saying "I don't like my job so I'll hate every job for which I might be qualified so I might as well change my career entirely" is pure insanity.
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Oct 4, 2010 03:03
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I appreciate what you're saying - thank you for the input and insight. I know I'd basically be bitch starting out (same with everything), but I understand what you're saying about potential pitfalls and disappointments. Your points on it being something where, if it's NOT what I'm expecting, I'm SOL. Along those lines, what do you recommend I do? It's seriously something I've struggled with for so long now and I've done everything I can think of - I've talked with the schools, I've met with some professors, I've talked with law students (both those with prospects and those without), I've talked with lawyers in different areas of practice, and I've audited a couple night classes to get a feel for school itself. I want to make as informed of a decision as I can and be as sure about it as I can be. As I look at this stuff, I will also talk with some headhunters and see what my other options are. I'm really trying to approach this as realistically as possible and not be an idealist (I promise, I'm not), and I appreciate this kind of input. Side note - if I end up disregarding everything you guys say and push forward anyways, would it be worthwhile for me to retake the LSAT? I scored a 166 the first time through.
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Oct 4, 2010 03:20
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Poop Faerie posted:Side note - if I end up disregarding everything you guys say and push forward anyways, would it be worthwhile for me to retake the LSAT? I scored a 166 the first time through. You wanted to get in somewhere strong on the basis of your LSAT, right? A 166 won't get you in anywhere special "on the strength of your LSAT" when joined with a poor GPA. Not anywhere that will help you do something more interesting than what you're doing, that is. Here: http://www.hourumd.com/ http://www.hourumd.com/?lsat=166&gpa=3.0&money=no&urm=no&waitlist=no&range=no First school you have a better than 50% shot at is WashU in St Louis. So you're looking mid T1, best case scenario. Petey fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Oct 4, 2010 |
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Oct 4, 2010 03:27
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Poop Faerie posted:
Lol Q: Hey what area of the law are you interested in? A: Basically all of law. Neither of the "areas" you mentioned are areas
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Oct 4, 2010 03:42
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Poop Faerie posted:I know the tone of the thread - that law school is a terrible idea in general, and an even worse idea with the job market the way it is - but it's something I feel very passionately about. I hate my job. Hate it. Need a change, and a big change. It's scary to think about leaving a paycheck behind and going back to school (or I could do part-time, though I honestly don't think I could give the time to law school that I'd want to to make the most of it with my current work schedule). Through all of that worry, I still feel really passionately that it's the right decision for me. Litigation is extremely broad, obviously, but I'm a tad worried that you mentioned transactional law. If you're interested in the civil side of things, then you either don't hate your job for the right reasons, or you really don't understand what people have been saying in this thread. If you're not looking at law because you feel it is a more honourable profession that will bring you closer to excellence, then don't bother with the hassle. There are better places to make money, or satisfy whatever base, low class desire you have. They probably don't require hundreds of thousands of dollars and three years of drudgery, too. Moist souls need not apply. Law school is only a good choice in the sense that it can draw you up from the private sector, and give you the opportunity to take an exalted office and achieve noble deeds. It is, however, in itself a burdensome and inefficient institution that will impart little more than bitter ill-will. If you intend to take up "transactional law" and persist in dealing with private inequity, then don't bother. If you get a job with a big firm, you will still be as low class and menial as ever, only you will also literally sell your soul 24 hours a day to people who you may well despise. If you don't get that job, then you will fail economically, you will fail morally, and you will be devoured by vile usurers when they come knocking. Anyway, I had a 3.5 gpa and 164 lsat and got a free ride at iub. The place i work at had literally thousands of people applying for a handful of jobs. don't go no jobs, but if you do go then go crim law and become something greater than the common man Lykourgos fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Oct 4, 2010 |
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Oct 4, 2010 04:19
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He's a troll. Trolls don't deserve more than 2 or 3 sentences of response just to remind all the non-troll serious dumbs that the dumb decision of law school is dumb.
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Oct 4, 2010 04:23
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Defleshed posted:I answered you initial question (as did a couple others) when I said that absolutely no schools care about anything other than your GPA and your LSAT. Isn't Northwestern known for taking work into account and tends to like older people with work experience more than other schools? If you're set on going, I would add them to your list of reaches and hope they really like your work experience enough to overlook your GPA. No idea if there are any T1s that work similarly to Northwestern. As for the LSAT - what were your practice tests like? Is your score pretty representative of your practice scores? What section did you do the poorest on? If it was the games section and you didn't prepare very much, it could be worth it to get the PowerScore book on logic games that people seem to swear by. I don't know if you can realistically do well enough to offset that GPA without really knocking it out of the park but getting into the 170's might give you a better chance at the higher T1s.
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Oct 4, 2010 04:25
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Did you know that you will be more likely to be depressed and to kill yourself if you graduate law school? It's true! http://www.legalunderground.com/2005/03/lawyer_depressi.html Why are you doing this to yourself when you have so many better and more certain options? Do you understand that your best case scenario as a law school graduate is, from the perspective of your current job, a miserable, stressful, and unrewarding job? Do you understand that the worst case (and yet highly likely) scenario from the perspective of a law school graduate is to have three years of lost opportunity costs, the burden of 200k in student loans, and absolutely no job? What the gently caress is wrong with you god drat it.
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Oct 4, 2010 04:36
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Poop Faerie posted:words Don't go to law school. That said, come to SMU but go to the night program. You can work and go to school at the same time (just don't count on getting any good grades). I'll put you under my wing and teach you how to fly! 
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Oct 4, 2010 04:36
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Poop Faerie posted:I appreciate what you're saying - thank you for the input and insight. I know I'd basically be bitch starting out (same with everything), but I understand what you're saying about potential pitfalls and disappointments. Your points on it being something where, if it's NOT what I'm expecting, I'm SOL. Along those lines, what do you recommend I do? It's seriously something I've struggled with for so long now and I've done everything I can think of - I've talked with the schools, I've met with some professors, I've talked with law students (both those with prospects and those without), I've talked with lawyers in different areas of practice, and I've audited a couple night classes to get a feel for school itself. I want to make as informed of a decision as I can and be as sure about it as I can be. Get an MBA
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Oct 4, 2010 04:51
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Incredulous Red posted:Get an MBA 
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Oct 4, 2010 05:01
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Random question - Do you guys anecdotally know of anyone that has gotten a job offer with a law firm and has been able to successfully negotiate down their billable hour requirement? Or am I smoking crack for thinking something like this is even possible? Because honestly the hours are way, way more important to me than the salary is, which will be enough to cover my bills pretty much no matter what.
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Oct 4, 2010 05:13
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The Rokstar posted:Random question - Do you guys anecdotally know of anyone that has gotten a job offer with a law firm and has been able to successfully negotiate down their billable hour requirement? Or am I smoking crack for thinking something like this is even possible? Because honestly the hours are way, way more important to me than the salary is, which will be enough to cover my bills pretty much no matter what. If the job was 2500 hours and you suck the partner's dick every friday night, five hundred other people would line up for it. Unless it's a small firm.
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Oct 4, 2010 05:16
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The Rokstar posted:Random question - Do you guys anecdotally know of anyone that has gotten a job offer with a law firm and has been able to successfully negotiate down their billable hour requirement? The answer to this question is the same as the answer to yours.
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Oct 4, 2010 05:22
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Yep, that's pretty much what I thought. I'll go back to my crack pipe now.
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Oct 4, 2010 05:23
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The Rokstar posted:Yep, that's pretty much what I thought. I'll go back to my crack pipe now. nm fucked around with this message at 05:32 on Oct 4, 2010 |
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Oct 4, 2010 05:26
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nm posted:You could, of course, work for the government if you want livable hours with reasonablish pay. County counsel (though this sometimes needs experience), city attorney, DA, PD. None of these jobs are any easier to get than mid-law, but they give you a better lifestyle. Feds too. I don't know... I had to work a few hours this weekend. and was given a paid day off in return
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Oct 4, 2010 05:36
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I'm actually looking at a corporate job that would be better lifestyle-wise with some law firm jobs as fallbacks, it's just looking like one of the law firm jobs may come to fruition well before the corporate job and I'm going to have to make a really tough choice about things.
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Oct 4, 2010 05:37
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The Rokstar posted:I'm actually looking at a corporate job that would be better lifestyle-wise with some law firm jobs as fallbacks, it's just looking like one of the law firm jobs may come to fruition well before the corporate job and I'm going to have to make a really tough choice about things. Up here tax and IP tend to have much lower billable requirements. And I mean low, like 1500.
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Oct 4, 2010 05:47
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CmdrSmirnoff posted:Up here tax and IP tend to have much lower billable requirements. And I mean low, like 1500. e: Canada... 
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Oct 4, 2010 05:48
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