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Walamor posted:You come off like you're looking down on us from your high and mighty seat of knowledge of how it really works. But we are. Every single one of the regular participants in this thread has been there and done that in one way or another. You may not like the mechanism of delivery but what we are saying is true. I have a great job. It was a direct promotion from the same one I worked the whole time I was in law school. It doesn't require a JD and is a legal job in the same sense that being a security guard is a law enforcement job. It's a great job, but I didn't need to waste 3.5 years (evening program) and 150K to get here from there. The only way I get to practice law is in the Army Reserve and that took 3 tries to get into. Judging by the list of law schools attended by my fellow new Lieutenants, I was lucky to get in there too. We've got people coming from all the T14, undoubtedly "slumming it" because the BigLaw job they were counting on never materialized. We don't go out of our way to be mean spirited in this thread, but everything we say is backed not just anecdotally but with piles of information and statistics and independent sites saying the exact same poo poo as is in the OP. Imagine you're sitting on your porch drinking a beer and watching a line of people queue up outside a big building with a sign that says "Fun Ride $100K" and they are counting their money making sure they have enough and they have big smiles because they can't wait to get on the "Fun Ride" which is a bargain at any price. But you've been living here a while and you know that inside the building is not really a fun ride but just a big meat grinder they fall into and when you shout "hey, dude, it's not really a Fun Ride it is a giant meat grinder and they are going to push you in" the guys in line flip you off and talk about what a bitter rear end in a top hat you are. The law thread works the same way
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Oct 10, 2010 15:03
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I don't know, man. I am looking at the facts that you guys present, and it scares me shitless. I come from a family of lawyers (if I go through with this, I'll be a 3rd gen.), I've always wanted to be a lawyer. My parents enjoy it even when they make poo poo money and have to work a lot. I honestly think that if I don't go to law school and at least try it, I'll regret the poo poo out of it later. I *know* that I'll probably won't be making bank. If I don't get into a good school, or for free/near free at a non-T14, I'll just go to the lovely state school back home (which is super cheap). Guess I am just a masochist. Zealous Abattoir fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Oct 10, 2010 |
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Oct 10, 2010 15:43
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Zealous Abattoir posted:I don't know, man. I am looking at the facts that you guys present, and it scares me shitless. I come from a family of lawyers (if I go through with this, I'll be a 3rd gen.), I've always wanted to be a lawyer. My parents enjoy it even when they make poo poo money and have to work a lot. I honestly think that if I don't go to law school and at least try it, I'll regret the poo poo out of it later. I *know* that I'll probably won't be making bank. If I don't get into a good school, or for free/near free at a non-T14, I'll just go to the lovely state school back home (which is super cheap). If you have lawyers in your family who can help you get your first job then you'll probably be fine. Just try to keep the debt at a minimum.
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Oct 10, 2010 16:05
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Zealous Abattoir posted:I don't know, man. I am looking at the facts that you guys present, and it scares me shitless. I come from a family of lawyers (if I go through with this, I'll be a 3rd gen.), I've always wanted to be a lawyer. My parents enjoy it even when they make poo poo money and have to work a lot. I honestly think that if I don't go to law school and at least try it, I'll regret the poo poo out of it later. I *know* that I'll probably won't be making bank. If I don't get into a good school, or for free/near free at a non-T14, I'll just go to the lovely state school back home (which is super cheap). I'm a 4th gen. Unless we pack up and move, my son isn't going to be a 5th if I can help it. There are better professions out there that aren't this bimodal.
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Oct 10, 2010 16:13
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don't go to law school
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Oct 10, 2010 16:50
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Ersatz posted:To be fair, some of us are trying to dissuade people from making a life choice that is probably going to go very badly, despite having been lucky ourselves. Yup. And don't forget that if you're stupid enough to go to law school anyway, we do try and help you make the best of the rape that you "wuz askin' for." GamingHyena posted:Pretty much this. "Bloodlust" in most litigation means "opposing counsel will waste slightly more time responding to this discovery than I wasted drafting it." Also sometimes you can ruin his toner if you send your 200 pages of bullshit admission requests by fax instead of by mail. WADING IN THE BLOOD OF YOUR ENEMIES I TELL YOU. California has this awesome thing called form interrogatories. Basically it takes two minutes to check a ton of boxes that will take like twenty hours to respond to. 
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Oct 10, 2010 16:51
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Adar posted:I'm a 4th gen. Unless we pack up and move, my son isn't going to be a 5th if I can help it. There are better professions out there that aren't this bimodal. The bimodality is pretty critical. I mean it exists in other professions - it exists, to some degree, in all professions - but I think one of the things that draws folks to law is that they think it's an easy way to make six figures because that's the glamour life that they see. It's like people who think of acting as a way to make money, not realizing that most actors are lucky to get a gig at the Stardust Diner while reading scripts as understudy's understudy. The only reason I'm still thinking at all of law school is if I were to get accepted to HYS and decided that it was the best way for me to pursue an academic or policy career. That path becomes less likely by the day. I was recently elected to the board of a small, but influential, nonprofit because of some social media tools I had built their organization; I'm pursuing my interest in policy and advocacy on the side, and making good connections, while getting paid at my real job as well. I do think that this thread may sometimes discourage people who may be going to law school for the right reasons. On the other hand, nothing this thread will do could ever convince a sufficient number of people who shouldn't go to law school to indeed refrain from going. And that's the tragedy. edit: I'm very grateful that I was dissuaded from going to law school at all costs. Some of it was this thread. Some of it was my own cousin having problems as a 3L at a T4. Some of it was the prelaw advisor at my alma mater having a very frank conversation about the good and bad parts of law school. A lot of it was my research assistant gig at HLS, which was very interesting and thrilling but also not at all what I expected it to be and not necessarily what I wanted for the rest of my life. So I benefitted from a lot of things. Otherwise I would've taken that full-ride to Cardozo out of desperation. I had well-intentioned family members trying to push me down that path because they didn't know any better but they think of law school as having prestige and so forth. I thank fate every day that I ended up doing what I'm doing rather than law school. There but for the grace of Mookie go I. Petey fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Oct 10, 2010 |
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Oct 10, 2010 16:55
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Defenestration posted:HEY quit ragging on liberal arts majors Man, I had a depressing moment last night. Met up with a bunch of undergrad friends in town for ACL. We were swapping stories and all of the engineers are unemployed except the ones in graduate school who despise graduate school and are also generally unemployed. It was like looking into a terrible mirror.
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Oct 10, 2010 18:22
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Petey posted:There but for the grace of Mookie go I. Lovin' dis.
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Oct 10, 2010 18:42
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Mookie posted:Lovin' dis. I'm not self-important enough to have a personal motto that sums up my life philosophy, but if I did, it would be "there but for the grace of god go I." Under the circumstances, the modification seemed appropriate. Petey fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Oct 10, 2010 |
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Oct 10, 2010 19:20
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Daico posted:Man, I had a depressing moment last night. Met up with a bunch of undergrad friends in town for ACL. We were swapping stories and all of the engineers are unemployed except the ones in graduate school who despise graduate school and are also generally unemployed. It was like looking into a terrible mirror. Ersatz fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Oct 10, 2010 |
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Oct 10, 2010 19:40
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Petey posted:So I benefitted from a lot of things. Otherwise I would've taken that full-ride to Cardozo out of desperation. holy poo poo, we almost became class mates. I considered going to Cardozo before IUB called up and said I could go for free.  Thankfully I graduated with the best job in the universe and will be eternally happy
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Oct 10, 2010 19:44
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Defleshed posted:Imagine you're sitting on your porch drinking a beer and watching a line of people queue up outside a big building with a sign that says "Fun Ride $100K" and they are counting their money making sure they have enough and they have big smiles because they can't wait to get on the "Fun Ride" which is a bargain at any price. But you've been living here a while and you know that inside the building is not really a fun ride but just a big meat grinder they fall into and when you shout "hey, dude, it's not really a Fun Ride it is a giant meat grinder and they are going to push you in" the guys in line flip you off and talk about what a bitter rear end in a top hat you are. The law thread works the same way Imagine four suckers on the edge of a cliff...
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Oct 10, 2010 19:51
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Petey posted:"but there for" Clearly didn't go to law school
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Oct 10, 2010 20:37
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diospadre posted:Clearly didn't go to law school The "but for" is almost as clear an indicator of the taint of law school on a person's soul as supra.
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Oct 10, 2010 20:58
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How much undergraduate science experience is necessary for patent law? I've got a number of biology and physics classes, and a bs in statistics and a bs in biological anthropology. No chemistry though. Is the job market in patent law just as hosed as the rest of law?
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Oct 10, 2010 21:08
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volatile bowels posted:How much undergraduate science experience is necessary for patent law? I've got a number of biology and physics classes, and a bs in statistics and a bs in biological anthropology. No chemistry though. Is the job market in patent law just as hosed as the rest of law?
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Oct 10, 2010 21:12
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volatile bowels posted:How much undergraduate science experience is necessary for patent law? I've got a number of biology and physics classes, and a bs in statistics and a bs in biological anthropology. No chemistry though. Is the job market in patent law just as hosed as the rest of law? As for patent litigation, the short answer to your question is: The Rokstar posted:Basically, yes. edit: The USPTO link I posted above shows that they are currently hiring Biology majors as examiners at the GS-09 level. I don't know whether you're qualified (and the lack of chemistry coursework is probably a problem), but if you're actually interested in patent law you should check out the hiring criteria. Ersatz fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Oct 10, 2010 |
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Oct 10, 2010 21:31
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volatile bowels posted:How much undergraduate science experience is necessary for patent law? I've got a number of biology and physics classes, and a bs in statistics and a bs in biological anthropology. No chemistry though. Is the job market in patent law just as hosed as the rest of law? PhDs are knifing each other in the testicles to get patent law jobs. Your "undergraduate science experience" means nothing.
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Oct 10, 2010 22:28
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Defleshed posted:Imagine you're sitting on your porch drinking a beer and watching a line of people queue up outside a big building with a sign that says "Fun Ride $100K" and they are counting their money making sure they have enough and they have big smiles because they can't wait to get on the "Fun Ride" which is a bargain at any price. But you've been living here a while and you know that inside the building is not really a fun ride but just a big meat grinder they fall into and when you shout "hey, dude, it's not really a Fun Ride it is a giant meat grinder and they are going to push you in" the guys in line flip you off and talk about what a bitter rear end in a top hat you are. The law thread works the same way Truly a modernized Allegory of the Cave
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Oct 10, 2010 23:14
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Petey posted:The only reason I'm still thinking at all of law school is if I were to get accepted to HYS and decided that it was the best way for me to pursue an academic or policy career. That path becomes less likely by the day. I was recently elected to the board of a small, but influential, nonprofit because of some social media tools I had built their organization; I'm pursuing my interest in policy and advocacy on the side, and making good connections, while getting paid at my real job as well. Seriously Petey, if you want to do general, socio-economic based policy work get a Masters or a PhD in one or more of the following:
If you're seriously interested in doing policy work, feel free to ask my anything, but I can tell you that like 10% of the people at my company have a JD and almost none of them needed it to do the work they're currently doing.
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Oct 11, 2010 01:29
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a friend of mine just took the LSAT. he wants to go to lewis and clark. what do I do 
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Oct 11, 2010 01:53
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scribe jones posted:a friend of mine just took the LSAT. he wants to go to lewis and clark. what do I do http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Yeller_(1957_film)
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Oct 11, 2010 02:05
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"I know, little guy. I know you don't want to be a lawyer, you just want to 'work in policy'. now close your eyes, this will only hurt for a second"
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Oct 11, 2010 02:50
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Blinkz0rz posted:Seriously Petey, if you want to do general, socio-economic based policy work get a Masters or a PhD in one or more of the following: I don't think I'm super interested in socio-economic policy research per se, in the "crunching numbers and writing advisory whitepapers" sense. That's one of the things I discovered at my HLS position. There are a few programs I'm looking at other than JDs now for grad. MPP is one of them, but the CMS and MAS programs at MIT for the C4FCM are more up my alley, I think. But the point I was trying to make was that doing work for this nonprofit allows me to actually be involved in interesting policy / advocacy issues without having to devote my entire career (and paycheck) to solely that. When I look more seriously at grad school - thinking of taking the GREs next summer for the application cycle next fall - I may drop you a line, though. I appreciate it! Petey fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Oct 11, 2010 |
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Oct 11, 2010 03:08
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Petey posted:The only reason I'm still thinking at all of law school is if I were to get accepted to HYS and decided that it was the best way for me to pursue an academic or policy career. That path becomes less likely by the day. Good man. What's more, if I were thinking that I'd drop the S and probably the H.
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Oct 11, 2010 03:11
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Petey posted:MPP is one of them I think I told you about this a little while back but I'd love for a goon to apply to Princeton's JD/MPP deal so we can know what it is. It's not really in the cards for me with landing a job and already as a 2L but it sounds like it could be pretty cool. This still requires law school at a T14 (or apparently UNC and maybe other pretty good spots) though.
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Oct 11, 2010 03:45
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sigmachiev posted:I think I told you about this a little while back but I'd love for a goon to apply to Princeton's JD/MPP deal so we can know what it is. It's not really in the cards for me with landing a job and already as a 2L but it sounds like it could be pretty cool. This still requires law school at a T14 (or apparently UNC and maybe other pretty good spots) though. Princeton law, Lionel Hutz's law school?
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Oct 11, 2010 03:49
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I think he was referring to something more along the lines of http://www.law.nyu.edu/admissions/jdadmissions/dualdegreeprograms/princetonuniversity/index.htm Anyways, I'm in a seminar on legal interpretation, and we've been given pretty broad latitude to write whatever we want, so long as it's on legal interpretation in some way. So I thought I'd run my paper topic by you guys so you can see what you think of it. Basically, last semester I took a seminar on legal interpretation, and it primarily focused on the duel between textualism and purposivism. Both of these schools of thought seem to fail in some degree: textualism often rests on shaky semantic distinctions and purposivism delves too deeply into legislative history and so gives contra-Constitutional support to documents that haven't passed bicameralism and presentment. There are, of course, many other arguments against both, but those are the ones that spring to mind most readily. So my paper would focus on the possibility of a normative brand of textualism. There is always more than one way to define a suspect term in a statute (think about http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/06-571.ZO.html or http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=6114119274021230599&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr or even "discriminates" in Weber or "lecturer" in Holy Trinity.) Discarding notions of legislative intent or a single meaning, a normative textualism would require a judge to view the statute on its face, discuss the possibilities of interpretation, and make a decision on normative grounds. This would nicely dodge the constitutional issues inherent in purposivism, while also (hopefully) constraining the "closeted normativism" that Eskridge derides in his articles on DSI. (It would be distinguished from DSI by the lack of temporal distance from the legislators.) Also, it would lessen the reliance on textualist canons of interpretation, which, as it's said, "fire from both sides."
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Oct 11, 2010 04:16
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Adar posted:Good man. What's more, if I were thinking that I'd drop the S and probably the H. So am I, frankly. My chances at YLS are slim, though not nonzero (3.7, 173, pretty solid softs, albeit none that would make me one of the 50 "prestige admits"; hourumd gives me ~5% overall). But honestly I think the YLS style is really what attracts me. All of my advisers, mentors, etc have been YLS grads, and the way they have described their education really appeals to me. More importantly, I'd be very OK with not going to law school if I don't get into YLS, which is of course overwhelmingly the likely scenario. HLS is tempting, because it would be more convenient, since I already live and work here, and Berkman is obviously great, but my experience there was mixed, and I'm not sure it would be a great cultural match for me. But like I said - I'm coming from a place where I like what I do, and am primarily pursuing non-JD options for grad school, and know what I'm getting into / avoiding, so I can have the luxury and ease to sit back and say ridiculously entitled things like "hrm, well, I suppose if I get into the most prestigious law school in the world I guess I'll go." And a big reason I'm in this place is because of this thread. Were it not for that (and the other factors I mentioned earlier) I'd be sleeping in a box outside of Cardozo, looking to license the first MidAtlantic franchise of Ainsley's Dicksucking Inc. Petey fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Oct 11, 2010 |
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Oct 11, 2010 04:30
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Ersatz posted:The United States Patent and Trademark Office is currently hiring. It's a solid gig if your engineering friends are willing to relocate (only temporarily, after the first few years examiners can telecommute from anywhere in the United States). They still have to come in once a (bi?)week. I'm still not sure on the details, but I'm starting training on the teleworking on Wednesday.
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Oct 11, 2010 05:03
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I'm also glad to say I just priced myself out of leaving the patent office for the next ten years or so, as I'm making something like $140k this year, and I really doubt that any firm would take me on at anywhere near a matching salary+fed benefits because as far as they're concerned, I wouldn't even know how to machine-translate a Japanese spec. fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff e: I was, to repeat an earlier point, working in the office/on the laptop at home 2500 hours last twelve months, so it's not like the workload is significantly less either.
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Oct 11, 2010 05:07
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poofactory posted:If you have lawyers in your family who can help you get your first job then you'll probably be fine. Just try to keep the debt at a minimum. Who you know counts, but when the competition is some URM from Yale or someone with 5 years experience, the fact that your dad is partner only goes so far.
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Oct 11, 2010 05:17
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Petey posted:And a big reason I'm in this place is because of this thread. Were it not for that (and the other factors I mentioned earlier) I'd be sleeping in a box outside of Cardozo, looking to license the first MidAtlantic franchise of Ainsley's Dicksucking Inc. Corporate personhood makes it easier to detach yourself from the experience
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Oct 11, 2010 05:45
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Baruch Obamawitz posted:They still have to come in once a (bi?)week. I'm still not sure on the details, but I'm starting training on the teleworking on Wednesday. Obviously it's less than ideal if you want to live several states away, but traveling cost isn't that much of an issue given the salary, so it's really just a matter of balancing the kind of commute you're willing to put up with for that one weekend against the strength of your desire to live elsewhere. That's all second-hand information though, and I'm curious if they'll confirm it during your training. Baruch Obamawitz posted:I'm also glad to say I just priced myself out of leaving the patent office for the next ten years or so, as I'm making something like $140k this year, and I really doubt that any firm would take me on at anywhere near a matching salary+fed benefits because as far as they're concerned, I wouldn't even know how to machine-translate a Japanese spec. fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff Ersatz fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Oct 11, 2010 |
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Oct 11, 2010 05:49
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More on patent law:quote:John Meline, a 39-year-old patent attorney who was laid off from a major law firm in October of last year, says he's seen some positions in his area of specialization advertised for as long as six months. When he sends in his resume, he gets no response despite his six years of applicable experience. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703927504575540491410169152.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read
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Oct 11, 2010 12:19
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Ainsley McTree posted:Corporate personhood makes it easier to detach yourself from the experience This isn't me gagging on cock...this is an legal construction ridding me of personal liability and incorporated in a Delaware P.O. Box gagging on cock. *gluuurgh*
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Oct 11, 2010 13:47
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Mookie posted:Lovin' dis. You ask me if I have a "god complex?" Let me tell you something. I am god.
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Oct 11, 2010 13:59
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Ersatz posted:
The real problem is I'm capped at $153k right now, whereas I would imagine I would eventually make more than that as a prosecutor.
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Oct 11, 2010 14:43
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Baruch Obamawitz posted:The real problem is I'm capped at $153k right now, whereas I would imagine I would eventually make more than that as a prosecutor. The problem with this thread as a warning mechanism is the occasionally sprinkle of this poo poo right here all the snowflakes just glom right onto it
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Oct 11, 2010 14:49
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