Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

«‹›1550 »

Aristokles: Oct 5, 2010; by angerbot

Mookie posted:

The real thing is that, factually, most murders/gang prosecutions are relatively simple from a factual standpoint than basically any case that a major law firm handles these days. On the criminal side, have fun if you ever get into major frauds/money laundering prosecution.

Yes, factually a lot of the cases seem to be fairly straightforward. Sometimes even the most simple fact pattern can get tricky on appeal, though. I recently had a def who took forever to get to trial, due to the def fleeing, then skipping bond (case was continued for decades), which in turn caused all sorts of discovery/pre-trial motion issues. Had a hefty record and it required a careful piecing together of who said what when and why they did so, in order to respond to various arguments. That fact pattern was pretty terrible, but even so it only took a fortnight or so for one person to complete the case.

quote:

The truth is that there's no real way to know the case well without looking at the documents and piecing together what happened. Knowing the documents is not optional, and, in fact, is the quickest way to lobby successfully to be allowed to take a deposition or argue a particular motion relying on those materials.

I thought they had ttt-lawyers beneath the new-hire associates that served to compile relevant evidence so that the big-earners could just focus on memo writing or something?

Aristokles fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Oct 13, 2010

# ? Oct 13, 2010 01:14

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 16, 2024 23:31

Elotana: Dec 12, 2003; and i'm putting it all on the goddamn expense account

Even once you filter out the utterly irrelevant stuff there's still several boxes' worth of stuff out of that warehouse that will turn out to be relevant.

# ? Oct 13, 2010 01:17

dividebyzero: Jun 26, 2006; by angerbot

crossposting from lf thread on the obama admin coming out against a foreclosure moratorium. the comments section was awash with rage, but this particular crazy person might have struck on a good forecast:

a crazy person with some decent points posted:

DOZENS OF CALLS FROM ALL PARTS OF THE COUNTRY ARE POURING IN ASKING FOR OUR TITLE AND SECURITIZATION ANALYSES, EXPERT DECLARATIONS, AND CONSULTATION. I�M ALERTING ALL THE TRAINED EXPERTS IN THIS FIELD TO EXPECT A CRUSH FROM HOMEOWNERS AND THEIR COUNSEL TO SUPPORT THE BEST CAUSES OF ACTION AND TALLY UP THE COMPENSATORY DAMAGES.
THE ISSUE OF CLOUDED AND DEFECTIVE (EVEN FATALLY DEFECTIVE) TITLE HAS BEEN THRUST FORWARD IN ADVANCE OF WHAT I HAD PREDICTED. SOME PEOPLE WHO WERE EVICTED LONG AGO FROM THEIR HOMES MAY BE MOVING BACK INTO THEIR OLD HOMES. OTHERS WILL BE MAKING MONEY CLAIMS FOR THE WRONGFUL FORECLOSURE. SOME WILL DO BOTH. THE INSURANCE CARRIERS ARE BRACING THEMSELVES FOR CLAIMS FROM ALL SORTS OF PEOPLE � BUYERS OF FORECLOSED PROPERTY, HOMEOWNERS WITH CLOUDED TITLE FROM DUBIOUSLY DOCUMENTED SECURITIZED RECEIVABLE LOANS AND MANY OTHER VICTIMS OF THE GROSS NEGLIGENCE OF THE TITLE AGENTS, THE TITLE COMPANIES AND THEIR UNDERWRITERS. LIKE THE RATING AGENCIES AND THE PENSION FUND MANAGERS, THEY WERE ONLY TOO HAPPY TO TAKE THEIR EXORBITANT INSURANCE PREMIUMS, NEVER EXPECTING TO HAVE ANY SIGNIFICANT LIABILITY. OOPS, THEY WERE WRONG, AND POINTING THE FINGER AT THE BANKS FOR MISREPRESENTING THE FACTS IS NOT GOING TO HELP THEM.

Lawyers are looking of course at quiet title, recovery of homes that were wrongfully foreclosed, slander of title, identity theft (see other posts on this blog), TILA violations, RESPA violations, RICO, negligence, fraud and a variety of deceptive business and deceptive lending statutes. It�s like a smorgasbord for lawyers and they smell blood. The billboards are going up and the attack is starting. Judges who were completely unsympathetic to borrower defenses and counterclaims are now routinely issuing TRO�s in favor of the homeowner. The whole game has changed, the banks know it and there is nowhere to hide.
A promissory note executed in negotiable form is called �cash equivalent.�

*
Why would you destroy a perfectly good and authentic $10 bill? Because you told someone it was a $100 bill and now he wants to see it.
Because now someone wants to see the original. Better to say you �lost� it than to admit lying about the transaction. Besides civil fraud it is most probably criminal fraud.
*
Why would you hire a company to counterfeit the original $10 bill you destroyed?
Because now someone wants to see the original. Better to say you �lost� it than to admit lying about the transaction. Besides civil fraud it is most probably criminal fraud.

What does it mean when someone in possession of the original note destroys the note (See Porter study from University of Iowa showing 40% minimum were intentionally destroyed). In most cases it is an act equivalent to writing �paid in full� on the note.

As stated 3 years ago on this blog, borrowers have the best possible defense to any enforcement of the note: payment in full, presumed under law. Whether that will also extinguish the underlying obligation and equitable rights attendant to enforce the obligation on behalf of the true lender that was never identified in the loan documents, remains an issue to be decided (or for that matter, raised).
Now everyone is on the band wagon. Now that we know the documents were fabricated, it is no stretch for anyone to wonder why documents were fabricated and forged when original documents once existed. In my opinion the BEST case scenario for the investor lenders is that they will have rights to receive some net amount of a yet to be computed obligation that is unsecured. (In other words, you owe the money, but your house is not encumbered by the debt and before they decide how much money you owe, there must be a complete accounting for all payments from all parties that were credits received or should have been received by the creditor from their own agents, less any other set off for affirmative defenses and counterclaims). The worst case for the investor lenders is that they find they have no claim against the homeowners at all and that their claim is limited to the intermediaries who sold them the fake mortgage bonds.

CAUTION: DON�T EXPECT THE PRETENDER LENDERS TO ROLL OVER AND PLAY DEAD JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE ON THE WRONG SIDE THE LEGAL ISSUE. THEY HAVE PLENTY OF POLITICAL AND FINANCIAL MUSCLE TO MITIGATE THE DAMAGES. YOU MUST PRESENT A CREDIBLE THREAT, WHICH MEANS THAT YOU ACTUALLY HAVE THE THE FACTS AND THE DAMAGES COMPUTED AND PROVABLE TO WIN A CASE.

# ? Oct 13, 2010 03:03

Phil Moscowitz: Feb 19, 2007; If blood be the price of admiralty,
Lord God, we ha' paid in full!

My friend who is a DA said this about her most recent case:

Aggravated rape of a child charge going to trial. 8 year old girl with defendant's DNA inside her cute little Disney jeans. Also, she had the clap.

I wonder if the state can convict???

# ? Oct 13, 2010 03:38

Solomon Grundy: Feb 10, 2007; Born on a Monday

gvibes posted:

Fifth year "litigation" associate (patent though), never taken a deposition or appeared in court.

Eff me.

e: Not that I really want to, it's just a pretty big hole in my resume right now.

I tried a jury trial all by myself three months after passing the bar. Small law woot woot.

# ? Oct 13, 2010 11:26

Solomon Grundy: Feb 10, 2007; Born on a Monday

ADHDan posted:

When the partner has delegated most of the background work, fact-gathering, etc. to the associate (which actually saves the client money), it makes sense for the associate to be present at key depositions. It's quality control. Of course it can be abused, but in many instances it's a pretty efficient division of labor.

Having been an associate, and now working (among other things) as litigation manager for a large company, I do have some sense of where costs are driven up needlessly and where things can be managed efficiently. I have no problem paying for a partner and an associate to take a deposition, especially if I haven't been paying the partner's rates for the bulk of the legwork.

Um, litigation manager, I can beat the rates of whomever you are using in Ohio, I guarantee it. Please give me lots of work and make me rich. I am a really really good lawyer, I promise.

# ? Oct 13, 2010 11:31

ADHDan: Sep 22, 2006; A genuinely kind goon who goes out of his way to help others. These traits can't be diminished by the fact that he actually likes Minneapolis.

CaptainScraps posted:

Could be. I'm a rather prolific kvetchy kathy.

Yeah, you asked about HLS. Where did you end up going?

Solomon Grundy posted:

Um, litigation manager, I can beat the rates of whomever you are using in Ohio, I guarantee it. Please give me lots of work and make me rich. I am a really really good lawyer, I promise.

No cases in Ohio right now, sorry.

# ? Oct 13, 2010 13:57

gvibes: Jan 18, 2010; Leading us to the promised land (i.e., one tournament win in five years)

Mookie posted:

Also, appellate work blows unless it is from a case you were directly involved in at the trial court, but it is fun to say to impress other people, particularly law students who don't know better.

I have only worked on cases in which I was not involved at the trial level, and if I could do it full time, I would without hesitation.

# ? Oct 13, 2010 16:05

Neon Belly: Feb 12, 2008; I need something stronger.

Neon Belly fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Aug 1, 2016

# ? Oct 13, 2010 19:46

Wyatt: Jul 7, 2009; NOOOOOOOOOO.

Gadamer posted:

Question.

I am dating a (graduated in May) lawyer who is afraid to go out drinking if my underage brother is going to be there, worrying that she'll get sanctioned because he's breaking the law. Considering that it is illegal to be served alcohol while drunk and she get's quite sloshed at bars, I think that she's full of poo poo. Although possible, it is highly unlikely that, in the event that he gets caught, it will be a problem for her.

Agree or disagree?

Unless she's buying him the alcohol, then she doesn't have anything to worry about. Besides, you have to deal in far worse than alcohol to really get in trouble. Drinking is what lawyers do.

# ? Oct 13, 2010 19:51

joat mon: Oct 15, 2009; I am the master of my lamp;
I am the captain of my tub.

Gadamer posted:

Question.

I am dating a (graduated in May) lawyer who is afraid to go out drinking if my underage brother is going to be there, worrying that she'll get sanctioned because he's breaking the law. Considering that it is illegal to be served alcohol while drunk and she get's quite sloshed at bars, I think that she's full of poo poo. Although possible, it is highly unlikely that, in the event that he gets caught, it will be a problem for her.

Agree or disagree?

If she's that risk averse, she shouldn't be out drinking.

or breathing (Oh my GOD! What if I exhale an infectious microbe that is inhaled by an egg-shell lung plaintiff who then gets a terrible infection and DIES!?!?!)

or practicing law (what if I catch IAC? and DIE!?!?!?)

# ? Oct 13, 2010 20:26

sterito: Jul 8, 2002; cheese flavored

Gadamer posted:

Question.

I am dating a (graduated in May) lawyer who is afraid to go out drinking if my underage brother is going to be there, worrying that she'll get sanctioned because he's breaking the law. Considering that it is illegal to be served alcohol while drunk and she get's quite sloshed at bars, I think that she's full of poo poo. Although possible, it is highly unlikely that, in the event that he gets caught, it will be a problem for her.

Agree or disagree?

She probably just doesn't like your brother.

# ? Oct 13, 2010 20:45

Neon Belly: Feb 12, 2008; I need something stronger.

Neon Belly fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Aug 1, 2016

# ? Oct 13, 2010 20:58

hypocrite lecteur: Aug 21, 2008; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Gadamer posted:

Question.

I am dating a (graduated in May) lawyer who is afraid to go out drinking if my underage brother is going to be there, worrying that she'll get sanctioned because he's breaking the law. Considering that it is illegal to be served alcohol while drunk and she get's quite sloshed at bars, I think that she's full of poo poo. Although possible, it is highly unlikely that, in the event that he gets caught, it will be a problem for her.

Agree or disagree?

I saw more drug (ab)use in law school than I have anywhere before or since. A lawyer that turns down an opportunity to drink is like a calf born with half its skin, 3 malformed legs, and an eye in its forehead. If you can, drown her and put her out of her freak misery

# ? Oct 13, 2010 21:13

Green Crayons: Apr 2, 2009

hypocrite lecteur posted:

I saw more drug (ab)use in law school than I have anywhere before or since. A lawyer that turns down an opportunity to drink is like a calf born with half its skin, 3 malformed legs, and an eye in its forehead. If you can, drown her and put her out of her freak misery

Endured a mandatory, hour-long lecture today about the dangers of substance abuse and clinical depression in law school and the legal profession.

That was fun. I felt like someone was just reading the appropriate OP sections back at me.

# ? Oct 13, 2010 21:22

BigHead: Jul 25, 2003; Huh?; Nap Ghost

Green Crayons posted:

Endured a mandatory, hour-long lecture today about the dangers of substance abuse and clinical depression in law school and the legal profession.

That was fun. I felt like someone was just reading the appropriate OP sections back at me.

When I got that lecture, it was some sad sack of a man who was denied admittance to the bar because of his drinking. My friends and I all agreed that he was a sad pathetic alchy because any half-decent alchy can still function enough during the day to hide it from the ethics committee.

# ? Oct 13, 2010 21:25

Petey: Nov 26, 2005; For who knows what is good for a person in life, during the few and meaningless days they pass through like a shadow? Who can tell them what will happen under the sun after they are gone?

hypocrite lecteur posted:

A lawyer that turns down an opportunity to drink is like a calf born with half its skin, 3 malformed legs, and an eye in its forehead.

I don't drink.

Hrm, another strike against law school for me!

# ? Oct 13, 2010 21:31

Green Crayons: Apr 2, 2009

BigHead posted:

When I got that lecture, it was some sad sack of a man who was denied admittance to the bar because of his drinking. My friends and I all agreed that he was a sad pathetic alchy because any half-decent alchy can still function enough during the day to hide it from the ethics committee.

My guy made it to 43, made partner, had three cars, a big house, two kids, two dogs and a beautiful wife before the intervention caught up with him. I felt like he was bragging, having gotten all of that while being empty on the inside and yet desperately trying to fill it up with alcohol and material wealth.

He sort of rambled, so I wasn't entirely too sure what he was trying to get across. Maybe I misunderstood. He did say he wanted to hurt and destroy the people at his intervention though. That was a bit awkward.

# ? Oct 13, 2010 21:31

gvibes: Jan 18, 2010; Leading us to the promised land (i.e., one tournament win in five years)

A high school mock trial friend of mine finished up three years of law school at a T1, but then either was not allowed to graduate or did not pass the character and fitness examination. I've always wondered what happened to him.

# ? Oct 13, 2010 21:33

Defleshed: Nov 18, 2004; F is for... FREEDOM

Gadamer posted:

Question.

I am dating a (graduated in May) lawyer who is afraid to go out drinking if my underage brother is going to be there, worrying that she'll get sanctioned because he's breaking the law. Considering that it is illegal to be served alcohol while drunk and she get's quite sloshed at bars, I think that she's full of poo poo. Although possible, it is highly unlikely that, in the event that he gets caught, it will be a problem for her.

Agree or disagree?

I met a couple people like this in law school. I've never understood it; does she really think the almost non-existent risk makes it not worth going out and having a good time with you and your brother?

Seriously like 4 things would have to happen:

1.) your bro would have to go apeshit or do some other thing to attract attention
2.) the police would somehow have to be involved and be able to determine he was breaking the law in some fashion
3.) they would have to determine your girlfriend was breaking some law (although not actively supplying him with booze or otherwise directly and obviously aiding him in some fashion)
4.) the c&f committee would have to care about something like that enough to deny her admission or do anything more than request an explanation

I think she just doesn't want to go out with you dudes because there's like a .00001% chance of that confluence of circumstances and the fun of a night out boozing far outweighs the risk

# ? Oct 13, 2010 21:53

Wyatt: Jul 7, 2009; NOOOOOOOOOO.

Petey posted:

I don't drink.

I didn't either, until I went to law school.

# ? Oct 13, 2010 21:57

The Rokstar: Aug 19, 2002; by FactsAreUseless

You really can't not drink in law school. So if you don't like drinking you'd better learn to like it (or, better yet, just don't go to law school).

# ? Oct 13, 2010 22:39

HiddenReplaced: Apr 21, 2007; Yeah...
it's wanking time.

Wyatt posted:

I didn't either, until I went to law school.

I don't drink and I'm a 3L.

However, I worked for the feds this summer...and I'm dating a doctor. LIVIN THE 10-8 DREAM.

# ? Oct 13, 2010 22:42

Alaemon: Jan 4, 2009; Proctors are guardians of the sanctity and integrity of legal education, therefore they are responsible for the nourishment of the soul.

Also not a drinker. Not before, during, or since.

# ? Oct 13, 2010 23:15

Aristokles: Oct 5, 2010; by angerbot

HiddenReplaced posted:

However, I worked for the feds this summer...

If you're talking about the USAO, isn't that kind of similar to career suicide, given that they apparently don't hire through the internship?

# ? Oct 13, 2010 23:55

HiddenReplaced: Apr 21, 2007; Yeah...
it's wanking time.

Aristokles posted:

If you're talking about the USAO, isn't that kind of similar to career suicide, given that they apparently don't hire through the internship?

Not USAO. One of the alphabet soup agencies.

# ? Oct 14, 2010 00:01

Aristokles: Oct 5, 2010; by angerbot

HiddenReplaced posted:

Not USAO. One of the alphabet soup agencies.

oh, okay, that sounds good. Dare I ask if the position requires a law degree?

# ? Oct 14, 2010 00:04

Solomon Grundy: Feb 10, 2007; Born on a Monday

Petey posted:

I don't drink.

Hrm, another strike against law school for me!

I knew a lawyer who didn't drink once. The prevailing theory was that he didn't drink because "it would let the gay out." Not that there is anything wrong with that.

# ? Oct 14, 2010 00:16

Stunt Rock: Jul 28, 2002; DEATH WISH AT 120 DECIBELS

Solomon Grundy posted:

I tried a jury trial all by myself three months after passing the bar. Small law woot woot.

Right now I'm on two pending civil bench trials, one pending federal jury trial, two pending civil jury trials, have tried two Chancery Court cases (Bench Trials), have two other Chancery Court cases pending, have handled a federal revocation hearing, and have tried three misdemeanor criminal cases (Won 2/Lost 1) in my first year.

It's scary as poo poo, I gently caress up a lot, procrastinate due to sheer terror an insecurity, and often envy the people who sit back doing shitwork for years before seeing a courtroom. When I overcome my fear and actually do work and get into court though, I really love it.

# ? Oct 14, 2010 01:08

Tetrix: Aug 24, 2002

HiddenReplaced posted:

Not USAO. One of the alphabet soup agencies.

Can you get me a 2L job? I have pretty good grades!

# ? Oct 14, 2010 01:23

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

Petey posted:

I don't drink.

Hrm, another strike against law school for me!

on the other hand, drinking in a class with tim wu is pretty fun, today we discovered he would pay money to have twitter not exist

# ? Oct 14, 2010 01:24

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Solomon Grundy posted:

I knew a lawyer who didn't drink once. The prevailing theory was that he didn't drink because "it would let the gay out." Not that there is anything wrong with that.

You clearly didn't go to a law school with a large mormon population.

(Apparently there was only 1)

# ? Oct 14, 2010 02:12

Holland Oats: Oct 20, 2003; Only the dead have seen the end of war

Aristokles posted:

If you're talking about the USAO, isn't that kind of similar to career suicide, given that they apparently don't hire through the internship?

Is this really true? If someone is dead set on working for the Feds in some way, would it better to work for one of the other agencies rather than doing SLIP?

# ? Oct 14, 2010 03:34

Aristokles: Oct 5, 2010; by angerbot

Holland Oats posted:

Is this really true? If someone is dead set on working for the Feds in some way, would it better to work for one of the other agencies rather than doing SLIP?

When I was a 2L, the USAO told me that they don't hire interns, but rather get a few fresh graduates through the honours programme. Being an intern was apparently p meaningless in terms of the honours programme, according to the Indianapolis office and some other one that I forgot the name of (it was some other federal office that required a law degree). I don't know how the honours programme works because I took a different summer job and then I never applied for anything else again, but I think someone here applied to it; apparently the odds are not good.

The people I know who work for the federal government in a non-lawyer position post-law school graduation all got it through some sort of fellowship thing. One of them is doing something involving social security and I forget what the other person got; apparently it's a big fair where you walk around from table to table and chat with all the different offices or something, and a sizeable portion of the people nominated for the fellowship will get a position (your school nominates you, I think).

Aristokles fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Oct 14, 2010

# ? Oct 14, 2010 03:43

Petey: Nov 26, 2005; For who knows what is good for a person in life, during the few and meaningless days they pass through like a shadow? Who can tell them what will happen under the sun after they are gone?

evilweasel posted:

on the other hand, drinking in a class with tim wu is pretty fun, today we discovered he would pay money to have twitter not exist

Yeah, wouldn't we all.

I remember when Tim Wu came to speak at UMass. Four people, including me, came to see him; only I had heard of net neutrality.

I then walked with him across campus where he was going to do my thesis advisor a favor and lecture the class I TA'd on cyberlaw. He paced back in forth talking about Schumpeter in his suit and tie and all of the goddamned morons in the class just stared agape at him.

I love Wu; wish I could take a class with him.

# ? Oct 14, 2010 03:54

billion dollar bitch: Jul 20, 2005; To drink and fight.
To fuck all night.

Apparently he taught crimlaw this year and everyone hated it. They said he was basically self-impressed, didn't know what he was talking about, and constantly leered at the girls in the class. Which is cool, but he's married, so...

# ? Oct 14, 2010 05:11

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

billion dollar bitch posted:

Apparently he taught crimlaw this year and everyone hated it. They said he was basically self-impressed, didn't know what he was talking about, and constantly leered at the girls in the class. Which is cool, but he's married, so...

I mean he's not a crimlaw teacher so I'm not suprised he didn't know what he was talking about, but he's basically my favorite professor and his classes are usually entertaining as all hell.

# ? Oct 14, 2010 05:16

billion dollar bitch: Jul 20, 2005; To drink and fight.
To fuck all night.

I've never taken a class with him. I probably should, to get the full CLS experience. Hopefully this class would be something he knows about, or that isn't graded.

# ? Oct 14, 2010 06:04

Petey: Nov 26, 2005; For who knows what is good for a person in life, during the few and meaningless days they pass through like a shadow? Who can tell them what will happen under the sun after they are gone?

billion dollar bitch posted:

They said he was basically self-impressed,

not saying it's good but most law professors I've met fit this pretty neatly.

# ? Oct 14, 2010 14:21

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 16, 2024 23:31

billion dollar bitch: Jul 20, 2005; To drink and fight.
To fuck all night.

My friend was RA'ing for him this summer. This was their conversation to introduce her to the job and apparently to him.

Wu: And so after law school I clerked and then blah blah blah.
Friend: mmhmmm
Wu: Blah blah blah
Friend: Interesting.
Wu: You do know that when I say clerked, I was using it as a euphemism for "clerked for the Supreme Court. The United States Supreme Court.
Friend: ... Yeah I knew you clerked for Breyer.
Wu: Because sometimes people don't know what that means.
Friend: No, I knew.
Wu: Okay, just making sure.

# ? Oct 14, 2010 14:45

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

«‹›1550 »