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Something that's driving me crazy is achieving commercial loudness in my home studio. I consider myself relatively knowledgeable when it comes to recording and I've been doing it for about ten years now, but this one thing still drives me nuts. Example: I'm listening to an eminem track and, needless to say, it's loud. But it doesn't actually sound overcompressed or severely limited, it's as if my speakers are just magically turned up more. Is it all in the mastering? My knowledge of mastering mainly consists of using a limiter and maybe some EQ. If I use a limiter to get an otherwise fine mix really loud, the drum transients turn to complete mushy poo poo and it just sounds horrible. And even after doing that, a commercial track still somehow sounds even louder but fidelity-wise almost totally intact. If I leave the drums really poppy and transient and simply turn up the other tracks in the mix, the drums are now too quiet. How in the hell do commercial releases get such a transient drum sound while at the same time being loud as gently caress in every other department? I know that the "loudness war" is generally regarded as bad, and it's not that I want my mixes to ultimately be that loud, but I feel like as an engineer I should be able to achieve that if the client wants it. I probably could have opened a new thread for this but I have an irrational thread opening phobia. Relayer fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Oct 5, 2010 |
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Oct 4, 2010 23:44
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| # ? May 17, 2024 01:33 |
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I forget the exact numbers, but when my band was in the mastering studio last month our engineer explained that most commercial releases that still have good dynamics "crest" at around -12 to -9dB. Our record averaged closer to -12 than -9dB, we wanted it to keep up with an iTunes playlist but didn't want to lose our dynamics. I'm sure Hogscrapper could give some better clarification on this (and correct my numbers if they're off), as well as some recommendations on some visualization or metering plugins that can help you do this on your own. OR, Hogscrapper is very affordable, you could always have him master your tracks.
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Oct 4, 2010 23:50
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For sure, I'm just wondering how much of that final loudness is in the mix and how much is strictly from mastering. If I'm never going to be a mastering engineer, I can accept that, but as a mix engineer I want to make sure I'm setting up the mastering process properly and not just going "welp sounds good to me, but good luck mastering it" which is what I currently do to myself heh.
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Oct 5, 2010 00:25
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Relayer posted:Something that's driving me crazy is achieving commercial loudness in my home studio. I consider myself relatively knowledgeable when it comes to recording and I've been doing it for about ten years now, but this one thing still drives me nuts. Super-clean recording, spacious mixing, parallel compression, and ridiculously expensive hardware equipment? p.s. loudness is awesome
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Oct 5, 2010 03:58
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Yeah but I already record clean, mix spaciously and use parallel compression (to an extent on almost everything). I'm talking specifically about what happens to a mix that sounds great (if a little quiet) when I try to make it loud in mastering. I do not have super expensive hardware though and maybe that's part of it.. I dunno. Plugins can only do so much I guess. I just feel like it has to be some technical thing that I haven't picked up yet, like the relative levels of instrument X and instrument Y need to be Z prior to mastering or something, or maybe some specific attack\release on the mastering compressor. Blarghgh. I hope hogscraper can give me magic answers soon!
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Oct 5, 2010 06:25
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A magic answer you say? A quick fix? A free lunch? Why yes, these are all possible.
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Oct 5, 2010 07:49
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For the goon who wants possibly the ultimate, and yet highly redundant, toy ever: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300461979965#ht_19090wt_1141 A frigging fully specced synclavier. At the time Frank Zappa did his final orchestral opus on one of these bad boys, he'd spent around about 2 mil on bits and pieces for his synclavier. And the sad thing is, a fully specced one now probably has less features than your laptop studio rig with NI's komplete pack. But god drat, seeing that thing for sale gives me a boner. Not that I can afford to spend 10K on buying it and transporting it across the planet..  e: I bet this thing doesn't even do midi 
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Oct 5, 2010 14:17
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Relayer posted:Yeah but I already record clean, mix spaciously and use parallel compression (to an extent on almost everything). I'm talking specifically about what happens to a mix that sounds great (if a little quiet) when I try to make it loud in mastering. I do not have super expensive hardware though and maybe that's part of it.. I dunno. Plugins can only do so much I guess. Well, Waves L3 Multimaximizer gets commercial loudness better than anything else I've tried, and it sounds fine to me (especially if you automate the threshold) if you don't mind failing the DR rating test hardcore, for what that's worth. But then again, I do really heavy music and think the dynamic range argument is a silly waste of time for the most part.
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Oct 5, 2010 15:16
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Duck and burger posted:Well, Waves L3 Multimaximizer gets commercial loudness better than anything else I've tried, and it sounds fine to me (especially if you automate the threshold) if you don't mind failing the DR rating test hardcore, for what that's worth. But then again, I do really heavy music and think the dynamic range argument is a silly waste of time for the most part. Opeth.
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Oct 5, 2010 16:44
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Seriously the prominence of drums in heavy music is a great reason not to squash all your mixes. People have all sorts of tricks to try and retain the snare's punch etc once that limiter is squashing everything, but you'll end up with a much more natural sounding result if you just don't squash it and turn your stereo up instead.
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Oct 5, 2010 16:57
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The solution in all modern heavy music is to use samples to get drums to cut through. Those drum sounds are not natural.
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Oct 5, 2010 17:27
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wixard posted:The solution in all modern heavy music is to use samples to get drums to cut through. Those drum sounds are not natural. All modern heavy music? Surely the samples came from somewhere, why couldn't someone process recorded drums in the same way?
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Oct 5, 2010 18:36
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If you are meticulously EQing, gating and compressing every hit to sound exactly the same and specifically to cut through a brickwalled limiter in the rest of a mix, I don't really see the difference. A lot of people leave the original sounds in and use supplemental samples, but a natural dynamic drum mix will never sound like a modern hard rock/metal record. Note I'm not saying you can't get good or acceptable drum sound, I'm saying it isn't going to sound like an Alice In Chains or a Lamb of God record or something. I'm sure there are metal bands who don't use them but I bet they aren't the albums that come up with your average metal fan in "best sounding" discussions. ChristsDickWorship fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Oct 5, 2010 |
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Oct 5, 2010 18:51
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Even so, if you supplement an acoustic drum sound with samples you can make it sound pretty natural, or at least not obviously fake, and have it stand up to that 'radio rock' sound. When you start crushing that mix with an L3 or whatever limiter, its easy to lose that sound you worked so hard on.
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Oct 5, 2010 19:53
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The very fact that it's the exact same sample playing the exact same way over and over again is what makes it un-natural, and is why it is used. It doesn't matter if it was a mic in front of a kick drum or a synthesized click with a sine wave for low end, if it's the exact same sample over and over again then making it cut through the mix becomes very very easy. This is why mixing with acoustic drums that were performed by a human is so tough, because you have to mix to the player and the style, you can't just throw up a fader and expect the kick drum to work from start to finish.
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Oct 5, 2010 19:56
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RivensBitch posted:The very fact that it's the exact same sample playing the exact same way over and over again is what makes it un-natural, and is why it is used. It doesn't matter if it was a mic in front of a kick drum or a synthesized click with a sine wave for low end, if it's the exact same sample over and over again then making it cut through the mix becomes very very easy. This is why mixing with acoustic drums that were performed by a human is so tough, because you have to mix to the player and the style, you can't just throw up a fader and expect the kick drum to work from start to finish. Truth. Toontrack makes a pretty decent Drumagog-style plugin to avoid using the same sample over and over if one goes that route. It's not a magic fix, but if that's the aesthetic you're going for, it works pretty well. Also I know guys who literally go in and manually augment every sound and randomly cycle through a few different samples from one of Toontrack's libraries (usually Superior Drummer, but sometimes they've gotten use out of DFH2 or EZdrummer). Then you at least catch the same sorts of frequency responses so it's easier to mix than straight acoustic drums, but don't have it sound AS unnatural.
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Oct 6, 2010 02:38
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RivensBitch posted:Opeth. Opeth is a standard 6 as far as I can see. Do they do something special in their recording process?
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Oct 6, 2010 03:43
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I think you're mistaking hearing the upper harmonics of a kick/snare for actual dynamic content. wixard is right about the samples, they have a lot to do with the overall sound. Experiment. Take a mix like Lady Gaga and turn it down about 6 dB and play it through a nice stereo. After about 10 minutes pop in a dance mix that came out 10-15 years ago, listen at the same level, and you'll definitely notice a difference right away. Modern loudness is all about pushing your mixes and gear past the ridiculous point. You're just noticing the distortion and lack of dynamics on your own mixes because you're used to hearing it uncompressed at this point. You don't have any frame of reference for how the Eminem mix sounded before they killed it with the limiter. RivensBitch is right when he says the best balance between loud and dynamic for most records lies between -12 to -10 dB RMS. Most modern pop records are coming in at -6 dB RMS. Rock/metal around -8 dB RMS. PROTIPS! Even the best limiters sound awful if you shave off any more than 2 to 3 dB off the top. Try and put a broadband compressor or two in series before you hit the limiter. Multiband is a no no. Multiband is for mix problems that have no chance of being fixed in the mix. You are artist/engineer. If you find yourself needing a lot of EQ over the mix it's best to go back to your individual elements and fix things there. Your goal is to get a good, even sounding mix with all frequency content equally represented. This will raise your loudness potential. A lot of modern records get mastered as stems and even limited individually per stem to a achieve the loudness you are hearing. Just keep in mind that every time you see that limiter working you are compromising your source in some detrimental way. Also... @DuckandBurger RE: Waves L3... yuck.
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Oct 6, 2010 04:36
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Duck and burger posted:Opeth is a standard 6 as far as I can see. Do they do something special in their recording process? Cresting at -6dB? What are you using to get that number? And which album?
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Oct 6, 2010 16:30
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RivensBitch posted:Cresting at -6dB? What are you using to get that number? And which album? The meter is kind of misleading because as far as I'm aware it's not using the AES17 standard for RMS readings so the crest factor on this meter and other meters that do relatively the same measurements vary. I haven't kept up with it lately. It's very possible that Algorithmix may have changed it between now and a few years ago when they first put out the DR Meter.
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Oct 6, 2010 20:57
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Yeah, I was using a version of that, and I was referring to the DR rating, not the RMS. Ghost Reveries and Watershed are both around DR 6/7 and RMS -8/9.
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Oct 9, 2010 16:21
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Hogscraper posted:You don't have any frame of reference for how the Eminem mix sounded before they killed it with the limiter. Well that's what really blew me away about it, was how it didn't really sound like they had killed it with a limiter, at least not in the "bad loudness war" kind of way. If I put it on and turn the speakers down it almost sounds unmastered because it doesn't have any really obvious compression artifacts, and the drums still seem to actually be "popping" and pushing their own air out of the speakers. Hogscraper posted:A lot of modern records get mastered as stems and even limited individually per stem to a achieve the loudness you are hearing. Just keep in mind that every time you see that limiter working you are compromising your source in some detrimental way. This is something I had really never considered, because it always seems to be heavily emphasized that mastering = stereo mixdowns only. Mastering from stems seems almost more like mixing really, but in a more consolidated and focused way, and I imagine it's easier to get super loud when you have the ability to master on a per-instrument basis.
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Oct 9, 2010 17:19
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I forgot to mention that arrangement plays a HUGE part in how loud you can make a track without audible distortion artifacts. The denser the arrangement the quieter it really should be. Listen to Paparazzi by Lady Gaga and specifically listen to the drum arrangement. It's extremely sparse and doesn't have a constant hi hat. Tricks like that in the arrangement will allow you to achieve loud a little less noticeably.
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Oct 10, 2010 02:42
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Edit: Post was kind of a timewaste.
Paramemetic fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Oct 18, 2010 |
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Oct 17, 2010 06:03
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So I've decided that I want a new computer specifically for my studio, so that I'm no longer using this one (which doubles as a gaming/storage/homework/whatever computer). I've looked at building one, and the cost of windows 7 and everything kind of makes it look unappealing when compared to buying a Dell Studio XPS 7100/8100. Does anybody have any suggestions? I think the XPS 8100 looks great, but I'm wondering if it's overkill, and I can get away with a cheaper model. If it helps, FL Studio is my DAW of choice, and I have an M-Audio interface so I'm pretty much set in terms of a soundcard.
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Oct 17, 2010 07:31
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What about a Mac Mini?
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Oct 17, 2010 14:00
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blerg. I play around with ableton and reason just for kicks sometime, but my old 49 key midi controller from the early 90s finally completely crapped out. I want a new fancy one with knobs and stuff that will map into whatever I want in ableton, so was looking at the Axiom Pro 49, but the price (~450) is a bit rough for just my dicking around needs. I don't want to get just a normal axiom, I have a friend who has one and it just isn't nub friendly enough; we can never get the knobs and sliders to map to what we want them to. Are there any other products that are fairly intuitive, have 49 keys and knobs and sliders and stuff? hopefully for less than 500 bucks? or does maudio really have a niche with their stupid 'hypercontrol' thing?
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Oct 18, 2010 23:35
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mindphlux posted:blerg. I play around with ableton and reason just for kicks sometime, but my old 49 key midi controller from the early 90s finally completely crapped out. In that price range, this is a much better option: http://www.novationmusic.com/us/products/midi_controllers/sl_mkii You could also buy some other, cheaper controller, then at a later date grab one of these to add tons of extra knobs: http://www.novationmusic.com/us/products/midi_controllers/zero_sl_mk_ii This is a little cheaper than the M-audio or the ReMote SL: http://www.guitarcenter.com/Akai-Professional-MPK49-Keyboard-USB-MIDI-Controller-104615018-i1380175.gc Another option: http://www.guitarcenter.com/Cakewalk-A-300PRO-485742-i1526687.gc My personal choice would be to look for a used Novation X-station if you absolutely need tons and tons of mappable knobs and sliders (they've been discontinued for a while, but it literally has more knobs than any other controller in recent memory). It has something like 35-40 mappable controls (an editor software where you can create custom control maps and save them as templates). Plus it's a synth and USB audio/MIDI interface. I use one with my laptop when traveling as a nice portable studio. (can you tell I love their controllers and synths?) Also, I wouldn't pay more than $5 for anything M-audio makes, but that's because every single piece of M-audio gear I've ever owned/bought has either died or stopped working within a few months of purchase, or didn't work right out of the box. It's the cheapest build quality possible. The Chinese state-factory designed and built CME controller I got for free and have sitting in the corner of this room is better built than any of the M-audio controllers I've played with, and that's saying something.
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Oct 19, 2010 02:56
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I don't normally ever record myself. I do all my stuff for others on my computer within a suite. I play piano buts its therapeutic and more a side hobby. I am decent but its more just fun than impressive. Anyway I have an Audix i5 usb microphone. It works (not great but I don't know anything about recording equipment) but I get mad background noise, even when I have eliminated most sources of noise, though keep in mind, it is my bedroom, and my pc definitely wizzes. Anyway I just record it using audacity and trying to use its noise removal. I get a good noise sample for it to work with but it just never works right, either the noise is removed or it totally warps the rest of the recording. Help me, you are my only hope! I'll even let you guys listen to my horrible skills!
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Oct 19, 2010 05:04
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HotCanadianChick posted:My personal choice would be to look for a used Novation X-station if you absolutely need tons and tons of mappable knobs and sliders (they've been discontinued for a while, but it literally has more knobs than any other controller in recent memory). It has something like 35-40 mappable controls (an editor software where you can create custom control maps and save them as templates). Plus it's a synth and USB audio/MIDI interface. I use one with my laptop when traveling as a nice portable studio. (can you tell I love their controllers and synths?)
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Oct 19, 2010 10:37
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awesome, I spent a lot of time researching after I wrote that post, and actually came to the conclusion that Novation stuff looked the best too. I think I'll widen my budget a little and get a MKII 49
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Oct 20, 2010 01:03
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e: Dumb post, ignore
RembrandtQEinstein fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Oct 22, 2010 |
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Oct 21, 2010 05:42
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All of a sudden my mbox is crackling through the speakers. What could cause this? They seem to work fine when I use something other than an mbox.
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Oct 21, 2010 06:44
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Fists Up posted:All of a sudden my mbox is crackling through the speakers. What could cause this? They seem to work fine when I use something other than an mbox. If that doesn't work I'm going to guess you're on Windows XP. I've had weird issues with left channel crackling before and it's always solved by reinstalling drivers. Even if I reinstall with the same driver revision.
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Oct 21, 2010 17:46
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Hogscraper posted:Try and put a broadband compressor or two in series before you hit the limiter. Multiband is a no no. Multiband is for mix problems that have no chance of being fixed in the mix. You are artist/engineer. If you find yourself needing a lot of EQ over the mix it's best to go back to your individual elements and fix things there.
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Oct 22, 2010 08:49
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Has anyone had any experience with lower-powered laptops and various plugins? I'm currently running a Macbook (unibody 2008) with a 2.0GHz Core 2 Duo and 4GB of RAM, using Renoise and a few Native Instruments plugins (mainly Massive and FM8). I'm looking at a machine to replace my two-year-old Mac, and I'd like to switch back to Windows for several reasons, using a laptop plugged into a larger monitor at home. Since my needs now are different than the ones I had two years ago, the short version is I'm looking at the Alienware m11x. It has portability, battery life, and graphical power at an appealing price point, but it seems to fall a little short in the processor department. It uses a Core i7 1.03 GHz processor, and as much as I've tried to do the research, I can't figure out how it compares to my current processor. I used to run Renoise on a 1.6GHz Celeron and my limit was about three Massive instruments before it would absolutely choke, and I'd rather not go down that road again of having to export a song every time I want to hear what it sounds like. Any suggestions are welcome! EDIT: Should there be anything I should know switching to Windows for music production? I can't think of anything specific to ask, but Windows 7 seems reliable and fairly well optimized, so I'm not expecting too much of a performance discrepancy. WorldWarWonderful fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Oct 22, 2010 |
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Oct 22, 2010 15:04
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Test Pilot Monkey posted:I tried using a broadband compressor over one of my tracks and the bass was interfering with the cymbals so badly it sounded terrible. Using a multiband compressor I had no problems.
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Oct 22, 2010 16:40
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I've been doing some recording using my guitar into a POD XT connected via USB to my computer, listening through my headphones jack on the POD. Basic stuff. Now, I've moved up and bought some studio monitors (rokit 5's) and a USB keyboard (not here yet). Is it best for me to connect my monitors to the POD XTs left/right outputs using XLR or TRS? (balanced) RCA? (unbalanced). Not sure what I'm supposed to use.
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Oct 24, 2010 20:34
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What is the difference between using an USB audio interface (i.e. M-Audio Fast Track) for a weighted 88-key keyboard (i.e. Casio Privia PX-330) for line-out recording on the PC, versus using a simple USB cable MIDI connection to the PC and routing the line-out from the PC to the line-in on the keyboard, and the line-out on the keyboard to monitors? The characteristics I'm wondering about are sound quality, recording manipulation, etc. with a DAW. Essentially, I'm looking to be made stupid for buying a $100 audio interface when my keyboard has a connection for USB / MIDI.
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Oct 25, 2010 08:08
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| # ? May 17, 2024 01:33 |
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First off, do you understand the difference between audio and MIDI? Audio tells your speakers how to move, while MIDI tells your computer what notes you've played. It can then use that information to tell your speakers how to move. MIDI is easier to edit than audio. Most times it's impossible to edit audio as you can with MIDI.
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Oct 26, 2010 09:51
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