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Danhenge posted:A 20th level wizard who is int focused has 5 ninth level spells and literally 50 other spells of various levels to cast. One more per level if he's specialized But don't you see? That fighter build can autocrit (if it doesn't roll a 1 and miss) once per day! That's one more autocrit than a wizard gets!
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Nov 9, 2010 03:17
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And he can do as much hit point damage as a disintegrate without a buff, except for the buff he has to have to even melee with flying enemies as he will be horribly outranged by them and their summonable allies and their at will walls at the drop of a hat. Basically the fighter only offers more than cleric if you have nothing but enemies that sit around and trade full attacks and will only lose to hp damage.
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Nov 9, 2010 03:53
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Red_Mage posted:And he can do as much hit point damage as a disintegrate without a buff, except for the buff he has to have to even melee with flying enemies as he will be horribly outranged by them and their summonable allies and their at will walls at the drop of a hat. Disintegrate maxes out at 40d6, or an average of 140 damage if it beats SR and the save is failed. Celestial Armor, Boots of Flying, Flying Carpets, Flying Mounts--none of these things are hard for a fighter to have at high levels. Nor is the "Speed" weapon property rare or hard to get at high levels, which would make him even deadlier. People keep saying a fighter is a total waste of space because you can make a caster better than a fighter, but by this logic anything less than the most optimized possible character is a waste. The question I'd ask when deciding if a character is 'wasting' a slot in the party is whether or not it can fill a role. Whether or not it can do something useful, and do it effectively. The fighter can deal out tremendous hitpoint damage and he can do so consistently and effectively. That's not a waste of space in the party in my games. I don't really know how you're playing that it is a waste in yours, but more power to you if you enjoy it. I don't think I'll convince people that are set on spells being the be-all end-all no matter what, but experience with the game tells me that fighters and melee classes in general work just fine. Edit: Heck, on the topic, Disintegration isn't even that great a spell. When a caster gets it at level 11, it does 22d6 damage, or 77 on average. Meanwhile a level 11 mounted fighter with Spirited Charge, a lance, and Improved Vital strike can put out roughly 5d8+75 per turn. Stick him on a flying mount and you've got a vicious party member through the mid levels who will remain useful late into the game. Hitpoint damage is literally the one and only place where fighters can be better than casters, but it's a useful and important place. grah fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Nov 9, 2010 |
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Nov 9, 2010 04:22
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grah posted:Edit: Heck, on the topic, Disintegration isn't even that great a spell. When a caster gets it at level 11, it does 22d6 damage, or 77 on average. Meanwhile a level 11 mounted fighter with Spirited Charge, a lance, and Improved Vital strike can put out roughly 5d8+75 per turn. Stick him on a flying mount and you've got a vicious party member through the mid levels who will remain useful late into the game. Hitpoint damage is literally the one and only place where fighters can be better than casters, but it's a useful and important place. Because that flying mount can go everywhere the fighter does. And he never gets disarmed. Or sundered. Or gets into anything other than just regular roshambo combat. From an encounter design point you can either make the opposition a challenge to the strongest members of the party (the casters) and leave the weaker ones in the dust with little to do. Or tailor the scenario to ones they can participate in and allow the stronger members to potentially run roughshod over everything. Also, the Inquisitor class does everything the Fighter can do better, plus have some of that sweet sweet casting goodness to be useful outside of straight beatsticking.
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Nov 9, 2010 05:47
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Gr3y posted:Because that flying mount can go everywhere the fighter does. And he never gets disarmed. Or sundered. Or gets into anything other than just regular roshambo combat. And the caster never gets grappled, or silenced, or paralyzed, or has his spell component pouch stolen, or has his holy symbol/favorite rod/bonded item sundered. or gets prevented from meditating or studying by some disruption to the rest cycle? And he never has a ceiling overhead or faces enemies with ranged attacks or any other way of overcoming Overland Flight, or who can use Dispel Magic or Parry Spell? Every build has its weak points and will fit better or worse into a given campaign. Obviously a flying mount is bad in a dungeon crawl but pretty excellent in something roving over open plains or even in cities. A cleric is going to have a rough time hunting a golem-maker but will roll merrily through hordes of undead. A rogue is going to feel out of place in an adventure with a lot of pitched battles on open ground, but where there is a place for scouting and trapfinding and stealing, the rogue will shine. It's really not that hard to design an encounter (or for that matter, an adventure) that forces the party to work together, or that plays variously to the strengths of different party members.
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Nov 9, 2010 06:51
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Danhenge posted:A 20th level wizard who is int focused has 5 ninth level spells and literally 50 other spells of various levels to cast. One more per level if he's specialized and a whole 80 hit points! that's almost as much as a single meteor swarm from a pit fiend! oh....wait.......no....it's nowhere near a full barrage.......
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Nov 9, 2010 06:56
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Fighters beat wizards (not clerics) (honestly though, I bet they don't even beat wizards if wizards optimize for hitpoint damage. I don't want to learn enough Pathfinder minutiae to figure out the combination of spells you'd need, but if you think it doesn't exist imagine me laughing hoarsely at you) at hit point damage in a game where hit point damage simply doesn't matter. Fights are won by cleverly removing your opponent's ability to attack you. I mean, it's just wholly absurd to harp on a wizard's lack of hitpoints. Wizards can increase their hitpoints in a million ways, but I'd actually be surprised to see them bother because the combination of their crowd control powers and array of daylong defenses should render them pointless to attack to start with.
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Nov 9, 2010 07:12
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I don't know how people even argue about pathfinder balance! There is no balance. Simply accept that casting spells that let you do anything you want is better than some trivial amount of hit points. "Oh man do I want the ability to control each and every fight and be unkillable and be able to kill everyone and fly while invisible? OR do I want 20HP? OH MY GOD I CANT CHOSE BETWEEN THEM!" Grow up and accept that some characters are designed to do whatever they want, and that some classes are designed to be almost entirely meaningless.
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Nov 9, 2010 09:50
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I'm playing in a campaign where I am the fighter in a group full of casters but I am the best at ~*~system mastery~*~ and they are heal-bot clerics, scorching ray mages and spellthieves so it works out pretty well at level 6. I'm not sure if it is unimaginative playtesting or just caster supremacy entitlement that let 3.5 be the caster game it isn't completely RIFTS broken or anything under certain circumstances
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Nov 9, 2010 10:26
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grah posted:Edit: Oh, and the most important thing! The fighter is still just as effective and putting out the same damage, using the same CMB on the last turn of the last encounter of the day as he on the first turn of the first encounter. This sounds like a highly enjoyable way to play
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Nov 9, 2010 11:29
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Honestly, I don't really think the mechanical power imbalance is the biggest problem. A good group can work around it, especially if you're playing in the lower levels. My issue is that, at least in 3.5, Fighters (and other non-spellcasters to some extent) tend to be built around a single combat gimmick and their whole strategy in combat is to put themselves in place to use and abuse it over and over until they win. I'm also of the opinion that you should play what you want, and if your group is having fun, then more power to you.
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Nov 9, 2010 13:56
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sorry Pathfinders for what I started v vI ended up not bothering to outshine anyone. I made some sort of Half-Elf Druid with a T-Rex pet, a savage from the jungles who distrusts civilized folks. I had something like, Entangle and Magic Fang. I used Magic Fang once but Entangle sucked because it would always hit allies. I ended up channeling that into a Fire Beetle (lol 1d4 damage) who critted, then I critted, and I still didn't kill whatever it was we were fighting (some sort of electric lizard). I had fun because of the people I was playing with, but it largely felt like we were just rolling dice. Most people have like +2 to hit and just rolled miss over and over again. Also because of the skill system half the party would've drowned if a lucky boat hadn't saved us, and nobody was able to read a map we got because nobody had Knowledge: Geography.
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Nov 9, 2010 15:24
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SagatPunisherFanFic posted:I don't know how people even argue about pathfinder balance! There is no balance. Simply accept that casting spells that let you do anything you want is better than some trivial amount of hit points. "Oh man do I want the ability to control each and every fight and be unkillable and be able to kill everyone and fly while invisible? OR do I want 20HP? OH MY GOD I CANT CHOSE BETWEEN THEM!" Seriously, "Grow up"? I had no idea it was juvenile not to "accept" your (incorrect) ideas about game mechanics. I will endeavor to be more mature about the specific workings of my game of pretend heroes fighting monsters for fame, fortune, and to save the world. All of these sweeping "any caster control every battle and automatically win all the time and are also gods outside of battle" statements pretty much tell me that these people have not spent any significant amount of time playing this game. Pathfinder spells simply don't allow that. Even "Wish" has been significantly toned down. If you include all of the many, various 3.5 supplements then you can't really be shocked when you include all of the 3.5 problems. If you like playing caster heavy games where the world belongs to the wizards and everyone else is just taking up space, well cool. But most of the people saying that Pathfinder looks like this seem to think it's a bad thing, so I don't see why you're so insistent it be that way, and so dismissive of the idea that other classes can keep up. They can, at any level, even if they are not the "optimal" choice.
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Nov 9, 2010 15:28
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grah posted:Edit: Heck, on the topic, Disintegration isn't even that great a spell. When a caster gets it at level 11, it does 22d6 damage, or 77 on average. Meanwhile a level 11 mounted fighter with Spirited Charge, a lance, and Improved Vital strike can put out roughly 5d8+75 per turn. Stick him on a flying mount and you've got a vicious party member through the mid levels who will remain useful late into the game. Hitpoint damage is literally the one and only place where fighters can be better than casters, but it's a useful and important place. So, the fighter has to take two feats, a weapon that is situational, and an expensive mount in order to have the chance to do this sort of damage, assuming that he can charge. I'm pretty much building my character around this one concept. The caster has to reach level 11. It becomes another toy in his bag of tricks and does not force him into one particular role, nor does it cost him anything beyond a spell slot. No feats, no equipment, nothing required but getting to level 11. Can you see the discrepancy? Why does Meathead the fighter need to build himself just so so that he can do one thing slightly better than a caster who merely has to exist and can do all sorts of useful things on top of being able to cast Disintegrate?
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Nov 9, 2010 16:47
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My binder, which I had taken from level 3 to 14, died last week. So I'm thinking of bringing in a summoner, and playing him like Ash Ketchum from Pokemon, mainly because I think it's a hilarious concept. Level 14, of course. 1) Any good summoner builds out there? 2) I'm stuck as far as good magic items. Which ones to pick? 3) Can someone lay out some awesome tactics for me, or any keys to the class? I want to be able be useful enough to compete with everyone else (Elf bard, gnome rogue, human sorcerer, and a half-orc cleric).
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Nov 9, 2010 17:45
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I like the 3.5 Fighter because I enjoy making the magic people in my party spend their spells on making me okay.
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Nov 9, 2010 19:17
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grah posted:All of these sweeping "any caster control every battle and automatically win all the time and are also gods outside of battle" statements pretty much tell me that these people have not spent any significant amount of time playing this game. ...playing this game with people who aren't good at using the system, you mean. Because this is the way it was in 3.5, and Pathfinder buffed casters. The fact that you're crowing about Wish of all things being depowered is clear indication that you just don't know where the money is in terms of wizard supremacy.
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Nov 9, 2010 19:59
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3.5 Wizards get a familiar, free metamagic feats, and the choice of picking a school. Picking a school gave you an extra spell of that school and a bonus to learning those spells, at the cost of never being able to use two others. Pathfinder Wizards get all of the above, except that picking a school gives them an extra spell, a bunch of overpowered bullshit like "Immune to one type of energy", or "Summon spells can be made permanent", or "beast shape III whenever you want", and their opposition schools simply use up two slots per spell. 3.5 Fighters get bonus feats at every other level. Pathfinder Fighters get the same, with a +1 save against fear per four levels, a -1 reduction in Armor Class penalties every four levels, +1 to hit and damage every four levels, DR 5/- while wearing armor/having a shield, and can auto-confirm criticals at 20th. Hmm. More spells, quite useful abilities with little to no drawback because I can still use every spell available to my class. Yes, this balances out "being marginally better at hitting things and taking hits to something other than my incredibly poor Will save which was never boosted ever". Pathfinder finally made things balanced.
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Nov 9, 2010 20:24
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Aura of Courage (Su) At 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects. This ability functions only while the paladin is conscious, not if she is unconscious or dead. Bravery (Ex) Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd. Thank god they stack, otherwise Fighter would have a class feature that was rendered completely useless if there is a paladin nearby.
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Nov 9, 2010 21:23
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This started out as me saying "Fighters can be a useful party member who fill their role admirably". It's true. They can, it happens in pretty much every game I play in or run. I'm glad so many people turned out to try to convince me that clerics/wizards/casters in general were better than fighters, but I'm pretty sure I said that they were like two posts in, and in almost every other post following.
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Nov 9, 2010 22:34
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grah, the thing is, one of Pathfinder's selling points was that it was a way to fix some of 3.5's balance issues. Thats what people were promised in the alpha. I would genuinely like Pathfinder if it actually did that. The problem, as many people here have pointed out, is that the imbalances are painfully obvious. A Summoner can build a pet that is superior to a Fighter. Clerics and Wizards can still trivialize encounters even with the removal of the worst save or dies, nothing was done about walls, save or sucks. If you buy the full backwards compatability promise you can still make a Cleric that out-paladins paladin, or a Druid that out barbarians barbarian. People are going to refute your claim that "Pathfinder is about as balanced as a 3.5esque game is going to get." Because it is categorically untrue. During the Alpha paizo listened to people say a level 19 fighter getting DR10 was brokenly good because it was better than what the barbarian got. Nevermind that a Wizard can get a 6th spell that gives them DR10/adamantine for the entire fight, the fighter might possibly be more useful at defending than the barbarian. Basically any intentions Pathfinder had about balance were quashed pretty quick.
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Nov 9, 2010 23:48
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grah posted:I'm glad so many people turned out to try to convince me that clerics/wizards/casters in general were better than fighters, but I'm pretty sure I said that they were like two posts in, and in almost every other post following. I'm glad you grew up and have accepted that the game is unbalanced.
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Nov 10, 2010 07:04
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Our Cleric just died tonight due to "Suicide by Red Dragon", and I'm likely going to be the one to take up the mantel, while my Ranger succumbs to the dark side and joins the BBEG, who already owns part of his soul, to become a reoccurring villain NPC. So, since it is relevant to the discussion at hand, what's the most optimized Cleric I can build at level 9?
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Nov 10, 2010 07:06
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If you want to healbomb, definitely take the healing domain, Selective Channeling and Extra Channeling feats. Again, that's if you want to completely focus on healing.
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Nov 10, 2010 13:41
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I'd rather build the alluded to "Better than the Fighter" Cleric  I know stuff like Divine Favor and Divine Power are important, but other than that I'm kind of lost.
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Nov 10, 2010 13:54
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Swags posted:My binder, which I had taken from level 3 to 14, died last week. So I'm thinking of bringing in a summoner, and playing him like Ash Ketchum from Pokemon, mainly because I think it's a hilarious concept. Level 14, of course.
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Nov 10, 2010 16:16
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Klungar posted:I'd rather build the alluded to "Better than the Fighter" Cleric the Chaos Hammer, Orders Wrath, Holy Smite spells are great for AOE.
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Nov 10, 2010 16:22
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Summoner party-destroying wackiness: see the thread starting here and moving forward.
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Nov 10, 2010 16:23
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Klungar posted:I'd rather build the alluded to "Better than the Fighter" Cleric Well, at level 9, you also have access to Righteous Might, which does wonders for battlefield control, thanks to your size and new 10-foot reach. To just be a better tank than a Fighter, get Armor Proficiency, Heavy and Toughness--you can now take hits like a pro, and if need be, you spend your action healing yourself. For Fighter-ish damage output, Divine Power and Righteous Might are the go-to spells. The issue is that that takes two turns to get rolling and you had to spend a 4th and a 5th level spell to manage it, which isn't inconsiderable at this level (at high levels, you can have a Quickened Divine Power handy if you really feel like smashing stuff). Damage is better handled via Flamestrike/Summon Monster (IV/V)/Bone Shatter/Holy Smite (and its alignment variations) if you absolutely must deal it at range. If you can get close, Slay Living and Plane Shift are both essentially kills if they land... and they're both Conjurations. Get Spell Focus (Conjuration) (and Greater if you can), and you've got something that almost nothing at that level is going to be able to stand up to--one targets Will save, and one Fort. It starts to look painfully feat-intensive at level 9 if you need Spell Penetration to beat SR, but luckily not much at that level has it. You probably can't do everything better than a Fighter at level 9, or not all at the same day at least. It's only when things start to get to really high levels that it becomes Fighter-irrelevant, which is why grah's claims looked so odd to me. You can definitely contribute more by picking what of the above your party needs most, though. Swags posted:My binder, which I had taken from level 3 to 14, died last week. So I'm thinking of bringing in a summoner, and playing him like Ash Ketchum from Pokemon, mainly because I think it's a hilarious concept. Level 14, of course. 1) If you have Augment Summoning, odds are you're not doing too bad. What does the party lack? Find a hole in the party and fill it; Summoners are pretty much always going to be second-rate anything when not summoning, but with the eidolon and your spell selection, you can be an okay choice for anything, including sneaking around and trap detecting--the eidolon can have the relevant skills for the former if you want, and with your class feature summon spells and the eidolon itself, you can handle traps via the "have something expendable walk in front" method. 2) Plays into your chosen role. 3) If you want the other players to hate you, summon something complex every single combat round. Intelligent outsiders are good for this, and you can get 1d4+1 Bralani each time you use it. Note: bad advice! This will slow things down until people want to beat you over the head with their books. More seriously, just stack interesting-looking attacks and defenses into the eidolon until you have a beatstick that won't go down easily; odds are that that's going to fit well with your teammates, since I'm guessing that at the moment the cleric is the best tank. But if things start to go sour or the eidolon is out for the moment, your summoning spell-like is seriously a crazy turn-around. Don't worry about not being useless; the big worry is chewing up time so that combat rounds take forever and half of them are your summons.
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Nov 10, 2010 17:23
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Swags posted:
Start with the bipedal eidolon, get energy attacks, get improved damage: claws, have the spell "Evolution surge" handy. Stack on as many extra sets of claws as are allowed at level 14. Whenever it's an option, use Evolution surge to make your eidolon large. Take Power Attack, and any other improved damage feats you want. Any extra evolution points beyond the ones meeded to make him have energy attacks can go to improved ability strength or be spent making all your claws into pincers(more attacks) or slams(harder hits). If you have the points left over you can spend them on fast healing for survivability(because your DM will be doing his best to shut down your eidolon) or a breath attack. Basically all you have to do is be a giant son of a bitch, it isn't hard to build a supremely lethal eidolon, but it bogs combat down making 6-7 attack rolls and then having to roll 6x3-5 damage dice, plus whatever your breath attack is, THEN having to do your summoner's turn. If you want to make a silly character without combat being slowed down, and without it being as obvious as a ball of teeth and claws floating around the room, make an Inquisitor with high dexterity, you won't be quite as deadly but it'll be much more streamlined and you get a lot more neat abilities.
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Nov 11, 2010 02:41
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Made my summoner. He is a level 14, fully unarmed and unarmored young boy walking around with a gigantic Pokemon. He treated all monsters as Pokemon, and would throw small balls at their faces and when they were killed he would 'capture' them. I planned to summon them later using the SM list as whatever kind of appropriate monster I could think of (Cold subtype Roc was Articuno, etc). That was the plan, anyhow. It was a fun gimmick and having this excited little kid in the party went over pretty well. We didn't even get to any fights. We're playing the 3.5 game Anauroch, and it is a bitch. Essentially, and this is a spoiler and all the warning you get for such, the god of magic has the Weave. The god of darkness has the Dark Weave. Well, in the place where we were going, the Weave did not work. Only the Dark Weave did. Permanent anti-magic field that only affected us. This is our party: My summoner, a bard (with Sublime Chord, so essentially a wizard), a cleric of Myrkul, a celestial sorcerer, and a really lovely rogue. So, instantly, my Pokemon is gone, and I can't summon, and am essentially a commoner. Bard is a rogue without sneak attack. Cleric is an armored rogue without sneak attack. Sorcerer is a commoner. Rogue is horribly made, and entirely melee, so she doesn't matter. The DM told us what the first encounter was going to be: Three mages, mounted on these flying creatures, shoot down spells at us (they use the Dark Weave, so they're fine). Their tactics, as written in the book, is to use things like cloudkill, finger of death, etc. Anything that is awesome and deadly. They want to separate the party to make it easy to kill them all. If you manage to kill a wizard, the others leave to get backup. If you manage to kill a mount, the wizard on him Gaseous Forms, and the others leave to get back up. I have no idea how we'd accomplish either task, though, since all of our ranged attacks were wrapped up in me throwing rocks and the rogue's shortbow, both of which would've been canceled by DR 5/magic. This is not the first time this has happened. This is the third in a series of three books, and each includes at least one major fight against major spellcasters with no magic. The horrible thing is that this wasn't the major fight. This was just a random patrol. There would be no fights, and we would no survive them. We, as players and as characters, decided this was pretty balls. We're not going to play anymore, 'cause this game loving sucks. Everyone left pretty pissed, and it's kind of lovely how much time it feels like I've wasted on this piece of poo poo adventure.
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Nov 12, 2010 11:02
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Swags posted:We, as players and as characters, decided this was pretty balls. We're not going to play anymore, 'cause this game loving sucks. Everyone left pretty pissed, and it's kind of lovely how much time it feels like I've wasted on this piece of poo poo adventure. That sounds really terrible. I don't know if your dm is a cool open guy, or some realms obsessed nard, but maybe you can convince him that salvaging the game by either modifying the module, or changing the setting but letting you keep your characters. If none of his players are having fun, he wont have much choice if you tell him "its the module or the game." Edit: If you wanted to play a shaman in 4e I would let you be a pokemon master in my game. That sounds boss.
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Nov 12, 2010 11:26
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Red_Mage posted:That sounds really terrible. I don't know if your dm is a cool open guy, or some realms obsessed nard, but maybe you can convince him that salvaging the game by either modifying the module, or changing the setting but letting you keep your characters. If none of his players are having fun, he wont have much choice if you tell him "its the module or the game." According to him, he really wanted to, but almost the entire rest of the module is based around us not having magic, then suddenly having it right at the end. Granted, we did have the option to take Dark Weave magic items before going into this fight, but the problem is, if you are not accustomed to them, every time you use one, it's 1d4 Wisdom damage. Everyone at the table, except the cleric, has 10 wis or lower. We'd end up making ourselves comatose in three rounds. Ugh. My trainer was neat. My eidolon was a huge, four-armed creature with rend and grab (Machamp). I also was going to summon a swarm of Mankeys and Primeapes (Girallons), a Haunter (Shadow Demon), Gengar (Soul Eater), etc. I was pretty much just giving the guys I could already summon a name from the game. For instance, the rest of the group came upon me as I was watching Machamp beat up a little squirrel thing. Then I shoved it into a ball. Later on, I summoned an Earth Elemental who I said was that same squirrel, only now it was a Sandslash. Gimmicky, but kind of fun. Really makes me want to play an all summoner game. Swags fucked around with this message at 12:44 on Nov 12, 2010 |
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Nov 12, 2010 11:39
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Swags posted:We didn't even get to any fights. We're playing the 3.5 game Anauroch, and it is a bitch. Essentially, and this is a spoiler and all the warning you get for such, the god of magic has the Weave. The god of darkness has the Dark Weave. Well, in the place where we were going, the Weave did not work. Only the Dark Weave did. Permanent anti-magic field that only affected us. That wouldn't dismiss your eidolon. APG page 55 posted:The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane Once the eidolon is there, it's there until it is dismissed/banished. It isn't kept on your plane by magic any more than you are. edit: also gently caress your DM for not telling you about the lack of magic/making all of your casters useless, presumably without telling you before hand. Tactical Bonnet fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Nov 12, 2010 |
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Nov 12, 2010 14:48
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Tactical Bonnet posted:edit: also gently caress your DM for not telling you about the lack of magic/making all of your casters useless, presumably without telling you before hand. Exactly. That's just bad DMing, no matter what the game system is. The players need to be clued in if there will be severe restrictions on certain type of characters. Also, this; Swags posted:According to him, he really wanted to, but almost the entire rest of the module is based around us not having magic, then suddenly having it right at the end. is a sure sign of a poorly planned module. Changing gears drastically like that right at the end does gently caress all for players enjoyment. Did he write it himself, or is it actually published?
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Nov 12, 2010 15:25
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Swags posted:Well, in the place where we were going, the Weave did not work. Only the Dark Weave did. Permanent anti-magic field that only affected us. Even a theoretically entirely mundane sword-swinger type isn't going to enjoy himself much, because suddenly his cool magical weapon is useless, he can't get buff spells on him, his HP total (however high) becomes an incredibly scarce resource when all you can get back is what you get by resting, and unless he's made out of very specific cheese his damage output is nerfed to the point that his "in the spotlight" fight ends up being 1/10th or less of the enemy's HP per round, so he's probably vexed by how little damage he does and the primary casters are doubtlessly completely fed up. Adding enemy-only magic and flying wizards against such a party should have set off your DM's Bad Idea senses, but if you're going with a published adventure, some DMs just aren't willing to mess with it because they assume that the writers must have known what they were doing. Anti-Magic is in all seriousness probably the worst spell 3.5 ever had, and Pathfinder didn't do anything to make it better. My biggest question about the whole thing would be why the DM would do it in the third of three books when you say it's been used two or more previous times; shouldn't he have learned by now?
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Nov 12, 2010 17:19
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Honestly, the first two times, our way of beating the fight was that we had characters who used Shadow Magic on our team, mainly because we had to. These are three published modules, 3.5 FR stuff called Cormyr, Shadowdale, and Anauroch, and each of them had it at least once. Tactical Bonnet: He + I ruled that it would make the Eidolon go away because the description says it can't be dispelled, but it also says it works as a summoned monster, and those wouldn't last either.
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Nov 12, 2010 19:48
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Swags: Your DM is terrible. Stacking the deck against the PCs is one thing, but he tore the cards out of your hands, ripped them to shreds and made you watch a sideshow consisting entirely of pictures of his genitals. There is no way he couldn't whip up a ring or something that allowed you to use your spells at a slight penalty? Like you can still use good magic but are just always rolling at -2? Or you don't get all of your spell slots or something?
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Nov 12, 2010 20:06
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Gr3y posted:Swags: Your DM is terrible. Stacking the deck against the PCs is one thing, but he tore the cards out of your hands, ripped them to shreds and made you watch a sideshow consisting entirely of pictures of his genitals. It really seems like just forcing concentration checks for using the non-shadow magic would keep the flavor without making the game stupid and unfun. If he set the DC for the checks well and did creative things with failures instead of just "you lose the spell" the element of uncertainty and unpredictable results would probably be pretty fun for a bit.
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Nov 12, 2010 20:45
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| # ? May 17, 2024 02:06 |
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Swags posted:Honestly, the first two times, our way of beating the fight was that we had characters who used Shadow Magic on our team, mainly because we had to. These are three published modules, 3.5 FR stuff called Cormyr, Shadowdale, and Anauroch, and each of them had it at least once. Summon monster is olyaffected by anti-magic field if the creatures are magical. Otherwise as long as you summon them outside the field it doesn't affect them.
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Nov 12, 2010 21:36
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