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CornHolio posted:I don't even know where to begin with this. Can somebody explain it to me so I know how to even retort? Well, you can tell him he's ignorant and to get hosed, but here's about how I would respond: quote:Jake, did you know that govt-supplied healthcare in Canada, England, Germany and most other first world countries sucks? And all of those countries are moving away from govt control because they are saddled with.... deficit! Now you do! Yeah Germany's health care sucks so bad that they have better waiting times, lower mortality amenable to health care, lower infant mortality, more doctors per capita, and are ranked better by the WHO than the U.S.    And it's bankrupting them, just look how much they pay compared to the U.S. (they pay less per capita than we do).  quote:Jake, did you know that if everyone had free and equal access to healthcare, people would live worse than they do right now and would go to doctors for frivolous issues. Doctors would provide inferior care to keep up with the increased demand and decreased pay. Now you do! See above, there are more doctors per capita in Germany and the quality of care is better and they pay less and cover everyone. quote:Jake, did you know that the USA is technically a capitalist republic of 50 democracies? We share a common infrastructure and security at all levels of community as defined by the respective level of govt. Now you do! This is a meaningless bullshit statement that says nothing and you can tell him the guy from the Internet thinks he is a dumb gently caress who relies on red herrings. quote:Jake, did you know our govt's job is to secure life, liberty and an individual's pursuit of happiness; and nothing else? Where is this in the Constitution again? (It's not and is thus wholly irrelevant to the powers of the government because the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land.) quote:The govt should step in to secure equal access to healthcare, not pay for it. And that was the case prior to Obamacare. Now you do! Except for all those people that couldn't afford to go to the doctor or get medicine and thus had no choice but to be sick until they either died or wound up in a hospital costing taxpayers more money than if we would've just taken care of everyone in the first place. Hurrrr. quote:Jake, did you know all govt is corrupt and extremely inefficient? Medicare has a vastly smaller overhead than private insurance companies. quote:Show me one govt program that is sustainable, met initial expectations and doesn't need constant govt intervention to stay afloat. Wait - you can't! The United States Post Office turned a profit up until 2007 when mail volume dropped; the current financial problems are partly due to the recession and partly due to the mail volume drop, but won't be permanent and they receive no government intervention to stay afloat. Not only is it sustainable, it provides mail service to the entire country for a low cost. quote:Obamacare is wealth distribution in that is forces people to join regardless of need, applicability or intent. Those who make money have to pay extra for those who don't. Any person is free to not work, become obese, sit at home all day, contribute little to society and yet get more care than others. I say more care because that lifestyle will certainly cause more aliments than many others. I take it you intend to get in on this gravy train by quitting your job right? quote:It is a worthless analogy to compare air and highly skilled healthcare workers. Here's one for you - human rights should not compel effort from others. Nor does does irresponsible spending save money or boost economies. Even Europe knows this. Responsible spending like the kind in the New Deal brought the nation back from the Great Depression. Funding for things like unemployment and foodstamps have a stimulative effect on the economy greater than tax cuts. quote:I suspect every one of your cited articles are bias and worthless. Makes sense - it goes with everything you say. You suspect but don't know because you prefer ignorance to checking your information you troglodyte. quote:Even China is moving towards capitalism and free markets. Maybe you should try to figure out why? Now you want to be like China, comrade?  ----------------------- Granted it's not really crazy political email though. Waiting to hear more about Obama bowing to India and letting them on the Security Council myself.
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Nov 8, 2010 21:26
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I'm completely on your side but when arguing with people it might be best not to say things like 'now you do!' repeatedly, as it could come off condescending, which is only going to make the person in question less receptive to your points. Though from what he said, I doubt he could be any less stubborn about his views.
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Nov 8, 2010 21:36
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Xanin posted:I'm completely on your side but when arguing with people it might be best not to say things like 'now you do!' repeatedly, as it could come off condescending, which is only going to make the person in question less receptive to your points. Though from what he said, I doubt he could be any less stubborn about his views. Jakesully, did you know I see you? Now you do!
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Nov 8, 2010 21:40
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CornHolio posted:I don't even know where to begin with this. Can somebody explain it to me so I know how to even retort? Culled a bit to address specific points: quote:Jake, did you know all govt is corrupt and extremely inefficient? Politicians say what will get them elected, not what is realistic. Show me one govt program that is sustainable, met initial expectations and doesn't need constant govt intervention to stay afloat. Wait - you can't! The post office, until the recession started. (http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-22153198_ITM and http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4368184.html). I think the last time they accepted outside federal money was in the early 80s. quote:Obamacare is wealth distribution in that is forces people to join regardless of need, applicability or intent. Those who make money have to pay extra for those who don't. Any person is free to not work, become obese, sit at home all day, contribute little to society and yet get more care than others. I say more care because that lifestyle will certainly cause more aliments than many others. Does he not understand what private insurance is (in theory at least)? quote:One last thing: Obamacare was never intended to fix the 'system'. Obamacare was intended to expand the brokenness of the system by providing increased access for those who can't or won't pay for healthcare. I suspect every one of your cited articles are bias and worthless. Makes sense - it goes with everything you say. Even China is moving towards capitalism and free markets. Maybe you should try to figure out why? Ask him to prove it, or to provide actual sourced material supporting your arguments or ask why those sources are biased and unreliable, besides disagreeing with him. Of course, since all he's doing is responding to your (I'm assuming properly sourced) arguments with platitudes and "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU, NUH-UH!", it will fall on deaf ears. I really wish that there was a better way convince people like this, or at least get them to put forth any sort of effort to support their view. Also, I'm seconding Chunk's statement that he's a sociopath.
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Nov 8, 2010 21:53
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Mo_Steel posted:The United States Post Office turned a profit up until 2007 when mail volume dropped; the current financial problems are partly due to the recession and partly due to the mail volume drop, but won't be permanent and they receive no government intervention to stay afloat. Not only is it sustainable, it provides mail service to the entire country for a low cost. According to Susan Faludi, US government shipyards that built for the Navy consistently outperformed private shipyards until they were shut down due to complaints by the private shipyards about unfair competition. But more than that, that point is stupid because the whole point of government-provided services is that they have a different goal and priorities than private enterprise. State gradeschools are outperformed by some private schools - but they still perform competitively while providing services to every child that shows up at their door, instead of only selecting the kids that meet certain criteria. A well-run government service will probably show less of a profit than an equivalent private service, but that's because the government provides an impartial service to everyone who's eligible.
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Nov 8, 2010 21:56
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Does anyone have a good web resources that offers quick breakdown of other country's budgets? I always here the meme to the effect that socialist European countries are going bankrupt from social spending, but never see any numbers to back it up. Usually this is mentioned along with disdain for how lazy the French are for rioting when someone tries to increase their work week. It's weird, they look at a country with all kinds of social safety systems, an equal or high standard of living, and more vacation time and less time at work and think that's not the way to do business. :shrugs:
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Nov 8, 2010 22:00
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I don't even get why government programs being unsustainable is necessarily a bad thing. It certainly has nothing to do with them being "extremely inefficient". When it comes to things like education, healthcare, security and infrastructure you want these things to be available to as many people as possible, not to have them make as much money out of the people who use them as possible. To call something like the police force unsustainable because it's not profit-run and imply that's a bad thing is just ludicrous.
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Nov 8, 2010 22:06
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For another government 'company', there's always the Tennessee Valley Authority. Providing power at a profit for decades, though Reagan never liked it.
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Nov 8, 2010 23:35
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Chunk posted:better rankings by the WHO. Chunk posted:Ask him how government is intrinsically corrupt and inefficient, despite Medicare having an overhead cost of 3% and private insurance having an overheard cost of ~20%. Ask him how we can trust our health to be placed above profit. It's a pretty stupid cycle in arguing wherein everything you cite is liberal propaganda somehow. I had my mother tell me the statistics on terrorism were from liberals and they didn't know what they were talking about. Statistics gathered by the FBI on the crimes they investigated. Everything is a liberal agenda here.
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Nov 8, 2010 23:36
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I love how he reveals his belief that it's the government's job to secure "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" in an email decrying the perceived evils of UHC. What better way is there to secure the lives and happiness of your citizens than providing equal access to affordable, comprehensive, and preventative health care for everyone? Or, let me guess, his idea of "securing life" is blowing up lots of innocent people half way across the world. But gently caress affordable health care, right?
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Nov 9, 2010 00:26
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Taerkar posted:For another government 'company', there's always the Tennessee Valley Authority. Providing power at a profit for decades, though Reagan never liked it. Bu-bu-but they're polluters! A private company would never pollute! 
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Nov 9, 2010 00:34
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Also it might be worth pointing out that profit isn't always a measure of a success. Government-run programs can afford to run at a loss, as their aim is to provide universal coverage and are funded by taxes. I'm not from the US but I remember reading that private package delivery companies get the postal service to deliver packages to remote areas as it's not profitable for them to have the delivery routes to those areas. You want to ask that angry man if he'd prefer to live in a country where government-run services had to be profitable. If the departments that run the power lines, phone lines, road, post, and everything else had to make a profit then they'd only be available in cities, or would cost loads more in more remote areas, leading to HIGHER TAXES FOR MIDDLE AMERICA.
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Nov 9, 2010 11:46
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ThePeteEffect posted:Does he not understand what private insurance is (in theory at least)?
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Nov 9, 2010 14:09
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Xanin posted:Also it might be worth pointing out that profit isn't always a measure of a success. Government-run programs can afford to run at a loss, as their aim is to provide universal coverage and are funded by taxes. I'm not from the US but I remember reading that private package delivery companies get the postal service to deliver packages to remote areas as it's not profitable for them to have the delivery routes to those areas. Both FedEx and UPS where asked why they didn't want to compete with the USPS in normal mail delivery, and both said they couldn't provide the coverage (sending a letter from Backwater, Florida to Bumfuck, Alaska for 1 dollar) and maintain their profit margins.
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Nov 9, 2010 14:59
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Xanin posted:Also it might be worth pointing out that profit isn't always a measure of a success. Government-run programs can afford to run at a loss, as their aim is to provide universal coverage and are funded by taxes. I'm not from the US but I remember reading that private package delivery companies get the postal service to deliver packages to remote areas as it's not profitable for them to have the delivery routes to those areas. This is specifically why privatization is a terrible terrible thing.
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Nov 9, 2010 21:32
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So FWD:FWD:FWD:OBAMA SPENDING $200 MILLION/DAY ON INDIA TRIP is how the public thinks of it now 
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Nov 11, 2010 03:46
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quote:In September of 2005, a social studies schoolteacher from Arkansas did something not to be forgotten. On the first day of school, with permission of the school superintendent, the principal, and the building supervisor, she took all of the desks out of the classroom. The kids came into first period, they walked in; there were no desks. They obviously looked around and said, "Where's our desks?" This one is apparently true but it's so SUPPORT ARE TREWPZ  as gently caress.
RagnarokAngel fucked around with this message at 09:01 on Nov 11, 2010 |
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Nov 11, 2010 08:58
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If I was there I would have been like "how, by killing the Indians?" Because gently caress.
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Nov 11, 2010 09:00
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It may as well have been 27 pencils or blackboard erasers for all the sense it makes.
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Nov 11, 2010 09:04
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That's pretty reprehensible and soldier worship is disgusting and needs to die.
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Nov 11, 2010 09:55
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Should be thanking workers and technology
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Nov 11, 2010 10:01
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Or assuming there where black kids in that class the thousands and thousands of people who fought here at home for their right to sit at a desk like other children. But of course its not like regular people, who pay taxes and vote or lawyers who fight for rights or anyone ever is worth thanking or recognizing. The only people we should be thankful and proud of are the young men we send off to kill brown people.
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Nov 11, 2010 10:08
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She went over to the door of her classroom and opened it, and as she did 27 U.S. veterans wearing their uniforms, walked into that classroom carrying nothing. Their teacher said, "You don't get to have desks, we can't afford them, the government spent its money on these guys instead."
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Nov 11, 2010 10:21
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She went over to the door of her classroom and opened it, and as she did 27 bears, wearing their fur coats, walked into that classroom, each one carrying an atheist...
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Nov 11, 2010 12:11
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Desiderata posted:She went over to the door of her classroom and opened it, and as she did 27 U.S. veterans wearing their uniforms, walked into that classroom carrying nothing. Repaired.
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Nov 11, 2010 16:26
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Coitus_Interruptus posted:But of course its not like regular people, who pay taxes and vote or lawyers who fight for rights or anyone ever is worth thanking or recognizing. The only people we should be thankful and proud of are the young men we send off to kill brown people. We kill yellow and white people as well!
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Nov 11, 2010 16:31
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quote:One last thing: Obamacare was never intended to fix the 'system'. In fairness to the guy this part is correct just not in the way he probably thinks it is. The health insurance reform in no way fixes the systemic problems in US healthcare, it tries to prevent some of the most egregious ways of denying people coverage and expanding the coverage of health insurance policies to those least likely to be able to get them (e.g. young students). The requirement to purchase health insurance is a bone thrown to the industry primarily because most of those involved in the 'debate' about reform were either utterly opposed to anything happening ever or didn't want to piss off potential donors/damage large companies in their states. Really the best point you can make is that you already pay for healthcare for those who can't won't pay for health insurance since hospitals can't refuse treatment. It just means they get the most expensive treatment available (such as a mild infection leading to emergency surgery, intense antibiotic treatment and several days in ICU vs. a simple course of antibiotics) and everyone else soaks up the costs. Well everyone except insurers because they pass those costs on to their customers because they're a loving business that exists only to make money. You might also want to respond to the government inefficiency thing by pointing to the VA. The US government already runs a cost and results effective health system that doesn't need a whole administrative department just to deal with all the insurance companies. Ask him how the VA, since money actually got spent on it and the whole thing improved massively, is able to run decent health care for less servicing one of the most high cost risk pools in the country (soldiers lose limbs, careless beggars). Then you can point out that the Chinese embrace of capitalism sees every major company being state owned and run to the benefit of the people as a whole (while also enriching the Party cronies at the top natch) and they're doing a poo poo load better than the US where companies are focused solely on making profits. Not all capitalism is equal.
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Nov 11, 2010 18:42
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She went over to the door of her classroom and opened it, and as she did 27 normal people walked into that classroom, each one carrying a school desk. And they placed those school desks in rows, and then they stood along the wall. By the time they had finished placing the desks, those kids for the first time I think perhaps in their lives understood how they earned those desks. Their teacher said, "You don't have to earn those desks. These people did it for you. It's up to you to sit here responsibly, to learn, to be good students and good citizens, because they paid their taxes for you to have that desk, and don't ever forget it."
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Nov 11, 2010 20:15
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Angry Avocado posted:She went over to the door of her classroom and opened it, and as she did 27 normal people walked into that classroom, each one carrying a school desk. And they placed those school desks in rows, and then they stood along the wall. By the time they had finished placing the desks, those kids for the first time I think perhaps in their lives understood how they earned those desks. Just then, an atheist burst into the room and was killed by a soldier.
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Nov 11, 2010 21:57
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I also thought that the correct answer to the desk question was taxes 
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Nov 12, 2010 14:55
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RagnarokAngel posted:This one is apparently true but it's so SUPPORT ARE TREWPZ Wait, doesn't this fall under socialist desk redistribution? Here are these capitalist army men working their asses off and risking their lives so that these mooching elementary school kids who've never done any honest work in their whole existence have a place to sit and learn?? gently caress that. Those kids want desks, they can drat well go to Afghanistan and earn them themselves. 
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Nov 12, 2010 20:34
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Facebook quote time:guy #1 posted:My teacher told our class that african americans are unable to reach high positions in this country due to our society. Well may I ask what an african american is doing as our president? guy #2 posted:don't you just loving love AFFIRMATIVE ACTION. The whole affirmative action bullshit is actual racist. guy #3 posted:Are trees considered high positions
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Nov 12, 2010 21:46
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Pretty much just send them this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States#Race_and_gender_disparities It's hard to argue with empirical data, but I'm sure they'll try.
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Nov 12, 2010 22:32
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the posted:Pretty much just send them this: I notice they don't really tend to 'argue' so much as just dismiss any evidence contrary to their beliefs as wrong because it's not from Fox News.
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Nov 12, 2010 22:33
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crime fighting hog posted:I notice they don't really tend to 'argue' so much as just dismiss any evidence contrary to their beliefs as wrong because it's not from Fox News. quote:Nationally, the government reported last month that median household incomes dipped to $49,777, the lowest since 1997, with the sharpest drop-offs in the Midwest and Northeast. Broken down by race, blacks had the biggest income losses, dropping to $32,584. They were followed by non-Hispanic whites, whose income fell to $54,461. Asian incomes remained flat at $65,469. Income among Hispanics edged higher but lagged whites significantly at $38,039. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/12/census-fast-growing-areas-big-income-drop/
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Nov 12, 2010 22:42
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We are in bigger trouble, thought Reid was sneaky try this one from information by another poster: ******SEN. MENENDEZ******HAS INTRODUCED YET ANOTHER AMNESTY BILL THE DAY BEFORE CONGRESS ADJOURNED FOR THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS. IT IS VERY MUCH LIKE THE SHUMER/GRAHAM AMNESTY BILL AND WOULD GRANT A BLANKET AMNESTY TO OVER 13 MILLION ILLEGAL ALIENS. IT WOULD ALSO GRANT THEM RIGHTS AND BENEFITS THAT EVEN U.S. CITIZENS DON'T RECEIVE. CHECK A SITE CALLED FAIR FOR ALL THE PERTINENT INFORMATION REGARDING WHAT EXACTLY IS IN THE BILL. WRITE, EMAIL, AND TELEPHONE YOUR CONGRESSMEN CORDIALLY, FIRMLY, AND OFTEN. TELL THEM TO: SECURE THE BORDERS IMMEDIATELY AND PERMANENTLY. ENFORCE EXISTING FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAW FULLY AND CONSISTENTLY. END THE TOXIC CONDITION OF BEING THE LAST DEVELOPED NATION IN THE ENTIRE WORLD TO STILL GRANT 'BIRTHRIGHT' CITIZENSHIP TO THE CHILDREN OF CITIZENS OF FOREIGN NATIONS. REPEAL NAFTA. NO AMNESTY. This came in 3 days ago from another poster. We need war on our borders with real military not token National Guard who are deemed inert. Every Mexican politician of any rank is pushing amnesty more than ever before, and they fully expect it after this election. Push Back Everyone, spread the word, do your share...fax, e-mail your congressman. Sen. Mendez is probably anchor. Look him up. Tell Lou Dobbs, who is working with congressmen we want full amnesty. Any 'PATH TO CITIZENSHIP' is a farce...we are not going to let illegals go home and then turn around and come back. Why are we paying illegal mothers over $400 a month per anchor baby? Where is my free $400 for my babies?
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Nov 12, 2010 22:48
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I always ask people that, if it's such a sweet life being an illegal immigrant, why don't they renounce their citizenship? gently caress, I would if it meant I get all the free poo poo.
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Nov 12, 2010 22:50
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the posted:I always ask people that, if it's such a sweet life being an illegal immigrant, why don't they renounce their citizenship? gently caress, I would if it meant I get all the free poo poo. I just wish I could go to the doctor for my back pain
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Nov 12, 2010 22:52
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the posted:I always ask people that, if it's such a sweet life being an illegal immigrant, why don't they renounce their citizenship? gently caress, I would if it meant I get all the free poo poo. I never even thought of this, thank you.
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Nov 12, 2010 22:53
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the posted:I always ask people that, if it's such a sweet life being an illegal immigrant, why don't they renounce their citizenship? gently caress, I would if it meant I get all the free poo poo. Cause they're too proud of this country Except for the president...and the government officials...and the policies. What do they love? I'm at a loss here guys.
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Nov 12, 2010 23:19
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