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Gambl0r
Dec 25, 2003

LOCAL MAN
RUINS
EVERYTHING

DJExile posted:

Do Tamracs have an all-weather cover or how do they do in the rain as they are?

That particular Tamrac bag is not weather-protected at all... There's no all-weather cover and the actual camera compartment is not sealed shut, there us just a buckled-down flap over the top of the compartment. The front pocket is just a normal zipper, not gasketed. Sooooo not a great all-weather bag... But it is very durable. Its been my trusty urbex bag for two years. Now it will be my backup / camera+laptop bag since I've bought the Kata 3-in-1 backpack.

I was thinking about doing a video review thing for the Kata - would anyone be interested in that?

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DJExile
Jun 28, 2007


Gambl0r posted:

That particular Tamrac bag is not weather-protected at all... There's no all-weather cover and the actual camera compartment is not sealed shut, there us just a buckled-down flap over the top of the compartment. The front pocket is just a normal zipper, not gasketed. Sooooo not a great all-weather bag... But it is very durable. Its been my trusty urbex bag for two years. Now it will be my backup / camera+laptop bag since I've bought the Kata 3-in-1 backpack.

I was thinking about doing a video review thing for the Kata - would anyone be interested in that?

Thanks, after hockey season, lacrosse kicks in and downpours here in Toledo will come out of goddamn nowhere at times.

I'd be curious to see the 3-in-1 though, I've heard good things.

mr. mephistopheles
Dec 2, 2009

So I've had this Crumpler strap for a while and it's really comfortable but it's really big and unwieldy and it's pretty much impossible to take off/put on quickly, so I was wanting to switch to a single point system. I liked the concept behind the Black Rapid but it felt kinda overpriced. So I went and bought the Black Rapid fastening loop and then an actual rifle sling. I only ended up saving like $10, but I'd trust a sling designed to keep you alive rather than one just designed for cameras.

I've had the loop for a few days but the sling just got here today. I haven't had a chance to take it out yet, but it feels really secure and going from hip to shooting position doesn't feel restricted or awkward at all. The sling also has a fabric cover for the metal hook so it doesn't bang against the body, which the actual BR strap does not.

Sadi
Jan 18, 2005
SC - Where there are more rednecks than people

Gambl0r posted:

That particular Tamrac bag is not weather-protected at all... There's no all-weather cover and the actual camera compartment is not sealed shut, there us just a buckled-down flap over the top of the compartment. The front pocket is just a normal zipper, not gasketed. Sooooo not a great all-weather bag... But it is very durable. Its been my trusty urbex bag for two years. Now it will be my backup / camera+laptop bag since I've bought the Kata 3-in-1 backpack.

I was thinking about doing a video review thing for the Kata - would anyone be interested in that?

Yeah id like to hear more about your thoughts on the 3 in 1.

caberham
Mar 18, 2009

by Smythe
Grimey Drawer

mr. mephistopheles posted:

So I've had this Crumpler strap for a while and it's really comfortable but it's really big and unwieldy and it's pretty much impossible to take off/put on quickly, so I was wanting to switch to a single point system. I liked the concept behind the Black Rapid but it felt kinda overpriced. So I went and bought the Black Rapid fastening loop and then an actual rifle sling. I only ended up saving like $10, but I'd trust a sling designed to keep you alive rather than one just designed for cameras.

I've had the loop for a few days but the sling just got here today. I haven't had a chance to take it out yet, but it feels really secure and going from hip to shooting position doesn't feel restricted or awkward at all. The sling also has a fabric cover for the metal hook so it doesn't bang against the body, which the actual BR strap does not.


Nice can you post pictures? I find the crumpler strap a bit unweildy too and just kind of let it droop out of the bag all the time.

mr. mephistopheles
Dec 2, 2009

caberham posted:

Nice can you post pictures? I find the crumpler strap a bit unweildy too and just kind of let it droop out of the bag all the time.

I wore the strap around a convention hall today for about three hours with no problems whatsoever. It's comfortable, feels perfectly secure, and doesn't get in the way at all. I'll post some pictures tomorrow (or later today, depending on how you look at it).

psylent
Nov 29, 2000

Pillbug
I got the Black Radid RS-7 arse trap. Used it yesterday on an 8 hour wedding shoot and absolutely love the poo poo out of it.

Wooten
Oct 4, 2004

psylent posted:

I got the Black Radid RS-7 arse trap. Used it yesterday on an 8 hour wedding shoot and absolutely love the poo poo out of it.

I love mine. I'm wondering if anyone here has tried the piece that connects two together? I often find myself carrying 2 bodies at events and often get strangled by crossing two of them over my chest.

mr. mephistopheles
Dec 2, 2009

Here are the pictures I promised.

Hanging:


Click here for the full 1575x1050 image.


Landscape:


Click here for the full 1575x1050 image.


Portrait:


Click here for the full 742x1050 image.


So this is this:

http://www.amazon.com/Command-Arms-Tactical-Sling-Point/dp/B0017XLRK6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1289789741&sr=8-1

Combined with this:

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Rapid-FastenR-3-Generation-R-Strap/dp/B003LA595M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1289789782&sr=8-1-catcorr

Now as you might notice, the bottom point can sort of get in the way if you've got the battery grip with the portrait shutter button. It's so low profile that it's not a real hindrance, though.

Another thing that differentiates this from the actual BR strap is that the ends of the strap that buckle onto the camera are elastic bungees. You're probably not going to be doing enough bouncing that this really matters, but it does make it feel like your camera is safer. Also the hook that connects to the camera has a cover so that it doesn't bang against the camera body and scratch it up. I'm not sure if the RS-7 comes with the FastenR-3 yet, but it definitely seems safer having a single solid piece than the separate ring of the FastenR-2, and if it doesn't come stock then that's another $15 you have to pay on top of the cost of the basic strap.

Long story short, the Black Rapid strap was designed to hold cameras. This strap was designed to hold an assault rifle. If this thing fails, then your gun is going to the ground and you're probably hosed. I haven't gotten to hold the BR straps in person, so I can't make a quality comparison, but just based on their purpose and the more thoughtful design of the rifle strap (hook cover, bungee), the fact that it's cheaper makes it a no-brainer to me.

psylent
Nov 29, 2000

Pillbug

Wooten posted:

I love mine. I'm wondering if anyone here has tried the piece that connects two together? I often find myself carrying 2 bodies at events and often get strangled by crossing two of them over my chest.
I wear the arse trap across my body and hang the other camera off just one shoulder, it worked pretty well.

Duckjob
Aug 22, 2003
Pack 'n Save has everyday low prices
Just picked up a think tank sling-o-matic 30 and absolutely love it



I've been carrying around a backpack for my laptop and a crumpler 5 million dollar home for a while now, and having everything stuffed in one bag with an interchangeable sling is pretty awesome.

MrBlandAverage
Jul 2, 2003

GNNAAAARRRR
Next month I'm going to Bhutan and I'm taking my 5DII, 17-40, 24-105, and 70-200 f/2.8. I'm looking to get a camera bag that fits all of that, plus batteries and memory, without too much extra room. I have a Domke J1 and love it, but it's just too big for just what I'm taking with me, and the lid and front pockets aren't quite as secure as I'd like for this type of trip.

I also have a Crumpler 4 Million Dollar Home (old style, without the velcro silencer) for a walkaround bag and love it, so I'm thinking a 5 or 6 Million Dollar Home might be the way to go. However, none of the reviewers on cambags.com have the 70-200 f/2.8, just the 70-200 f/4. Anybody with a 5 or 6MDH that can comment on the vertical fit of the 70-200 f/2.8 (preferably with reversed hood)? The 7MDH seems like it's almost as big as my Domke.

I'm also open to other ideas, of course. I prefer shoulder bags...

Ferris Bueller
May 12, 2001

"It is his fault he didn't lock the garage."

MrBlandAverage posted:


I'm also open to other ideas, of course. I prefer shoulder bags...

I have a retrospective 30 and really liked it. Back about two pages I have picture of it.

DJExile
Jun 28, 2007


A couple nights ago I saw the Lowepro Classified Sling 220. That is a loving enormous bag.

Blandaverage, I checked out a 5 million and it would hold my 50-200mm f/2.8-3.5 perfectly fine. I know that's shorter than the 70-200 f/2.8 but I don't see why that wouldn't fit by itself. Attached to a body, it might not work.

Henchman 21
Apr 3, 2005

HENCH 4 LIFE

MrBlandAverage posted:

Next month I'm going to Bhutan and I'm taking my 5DII, 17-40, 24-105, and 70-200 f/2.8. I'm looking to get a camera bag that fits all of that, plus batteries and memory, without too much extra room. I have a Domke J1 and love it, but it's just too big for just what I'm taking with me, and the lid and front pockets aren't quite as secure as I'd like for this type of trip.

I also have a Crumpler 4 Million Dollar Home (old style, without the velcro silencer) for a walkaround bag and love it, so I'm thinking a 5 or 6 Million Dollar Home might be the way to go. However, none of the reviewers on cambags.com have the 70-200 f/2.8, just the 70-200 f/4. Anybody with a 5 or 6MDH that can comment on the vertical fit of the 70-200 f/2.8 (preferably with reversed hood)? The 7MDH seems like it's almost as big as my Domke.

I'm also open to other ideas, of course. I prefer shoulder bags...

I have the 7MDH and it fits a Nikon D700, SB900 flash, 70-200 f2.8, 35-70, 50mm, and 35mm with room to spare and it really isnt super huge, by looking at the pictures of your Domke I would say it is smaller by a decent margin

HPL
Aug 28, 2002

Worst case scenario.
I have the 7MDH and it's good for gripped camera bodies and 70-200s but only when they're separate. The bag is too shallow to hold a mounted 70-200. I mean it'll hold it, but you won't be able to close the top flap. My usual concert configuration is roughly four lenses, a flash, a teleconverter, radio triggers, extra batteries and the usual small bits and pieces. It's a tight fit, but it works. I switch lenses frequently during shows and I find that the bag has good "no look" access for finding and stowing lenses on the go. That's why I prefer messenger-style bags for assignment shooting.

I've been using my bag for a couple of years now and if I have one gripe with it, it's that it's not very efficient as far as pockets and other supplementary storage goes. Also, the bag is rather stout because of all the thick padding. They've designed the bag to look slimmer than it is which is good because it can be like lugging a big pumpkin around.

The strap is nice and wide which helps prevent digging in on the shoulders and the strap pad is huge and moves freely so you can reposition the bag easily whether you've got it at your side, behind you or you have to swing it around to the front which makes it good for use in more crowded areas. It's also good in crowds because you can hold it sideways behind you to reduce your profile when slipping through gaps in crowds as opposed to backpacks where you barge through and knock everyone over.

Gambl0r
Dec 25, 2003

LOCAL MAN
RUINS
EVERYTHING
I tried to do a full video review of my Kata 3N1-20, but for various reasons, it didn't work out (I sound like an idiot on camera, I didn't prepare anything before trying to review, I didn't want to setup a shot showing the different ways to wear it, etc). But, I think showing the capacity of the bag in a video is important, because it's hard to judge what it can hold from a still photo or an illustration.

So, here's a video showing the contents of my bag:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxMYmLrVYrg

I have been really happy with this backpack. It is the perfect size for what I wanted to carry, it's 10x more comfortable than the other backpacks I tried on, the little 'wings' and accompanying strap that goes around your waist are a huge help for long trips... one complaint I have is that there is no strap to go around your chest, but I bought a $2 strap w/ buckle and I wrap it around the shoulder straps over my chest and it really helps distribute the weight better. This makes it impossible to swing the bag to the side for side-access, but I rarely use the bag in that configuration anyway. I find it's much more comfortable as a traditional backpack.

tijag
Aug 6, 2002
I'd like some advice on a camera bag.

Gear needs:

Camera : D90
Lenses : 35mm F/1.8, 18-105mm VR kit lens. I will be buying the Tamron 17-55mm though to replace the kit lens. But assume I eventually will have a 3rd lens
Flash : SB-600 at least, maybe SB-800 down the road

Don't need a laptop in my bag. I'm very casual and amateur.

Features I'd like are, some weather protection, if it is sprinkling or misting out side, or if the bag get set down in a damp area, I'd like the outside to protect the inside.

Decent padding, which I'm sure everyone wants. Just so I feel confident that bumping up against something won't damage the contents.

Ability to hang a small tripod, like for if we go to Disneyland or something like that so that we don't have to actually carry the tripod around.

I like the look of the Domke F-2 a lot, and almost bought it today, but I was hoping the Dorkroom would help out and give some other options, that might be more in line with what I'd like in a bag.

Thanks!

Fists Up
Apr 9, 2007

Do you want a shoulder bag or a backpack? A shoulder bag is going to be cumbersome with a tripod hanging off it.

tijag
Aug 6, 2002

Fists Up posted:

Do you want a shoulder bag or a backpack? A shoulder bag is going to be cumbersome with a tripod hanging off it.

It seems like making lens changes, or putting the camera away in the bag would be easier to do with a shoulder bag, but I'm not opposed to a backpack if thats a much better way to go.

mr. mephistopheles
Dec 2, 2009

tijag posted:

It seems like making lens changes, or putting the camera away in the bag would be easier to do with a shoulder bag,

You would think so, but no, not really. Also they make a lot of backpacks designed to swoop around your body to pull gear out of quickly.

Personally I always try to find something to set my stuff down on to change lenses because trying to juggle several hundred to several thousand dollars in my hands to save maybe 60 seconds feels pretty stupid.

geeves
Sep 16, 2004

^^^^ My Lowepro is like that and it's nice, but the bag overall is too bulky for everyday use. Only run into problems if I want to switch lenses quickly. Which leads me to ask:

What's a decent shoulder bag for walking around Europe without broadcasting that "I have a lot of money invested in the contents of my bag"? Perhaps something that can also carry a 13in MacBook?

subx
Jan 12, 2003

If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

geeves posted:

^^^^ My Lowepro is like that and it's nice, but the bag overall is too bulky for everyday use. Only run into problems if I want to switch lenses quickly. Which leads me to ask:

What's a decent shoulder bag for walking around Europe without broadcasting that "I have a lot of money invested in the contents of my bag"? Perhaps something that can also carry a 13in MacBook?

I love my Thinktank Retrospective 20 and its very low-key in appearance. You could probably get the 10 (a little cheaper and smaller) and it would be perfect.

Not positive how well the 10 would fit a macbook though, if you have somewhere you can look at it might help.

subx fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Nov 25, 2010

tijag
Aug 6, 2002

mr. mephistopheles posted:

You would think so, but no, not really. Also they make a lot of backpacks designed to swoop around your body to pull gear out of quickly.

Personally I always try to find something to set my stuff down on to change lenses because trying to juggle several hundred to several thousand dollars in my hands to save maybe 60 seconds feels pretty stupid.

What backpack would you recommend then?

caberham
Mar 18, 2009

by Smythe
Grimey Drawer

Gambl0r posted:

Awesome video of Kata backpack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxMYmLrVYrg

Nice, everything just fits and you can add a spacer to fit 2 lenses in 1 compartment. Better than my crumpler keystone.

tijag posted:

What backpack would you recommend then?

Keep in mind it's either having a really sweaty back or uncomfortable wobbly shoulders when your gear is heavy. Sometimes I just want to bring a point and shoot or get a NEX...


geeves posted:


What's a decent shoulder bag for walking around Europe without broadcasting that "I have a lot of money invested in the contents of my bag"? Perhaps something that can also carry a 13in MacBook?

Only thing I can think of is a military surplus duffel bag or something really ordinary looking. Crumpler, Timbuk2, non lowe pro use to be low profile but nowadays any brand name messenger shoulder bag designed for camera comfort is a big give away for more camera gear if you are walking around with a non kit lens + semi pro body. Maybe I'm over thinking a bit too much but even the most basic consumer slr is worthwhile to a thief and attracts attention :(

unless you carry a Leica because it just looks just like a point and shoot!

caberham fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Nov 25, 2010

mr. mephistopheles
Dec 2, 2009

tijag posted:

What backpack would you recommend then?

I bought a $300 leather camera bag because I take my camera pretty much every time I leave my house and I wanted something that A) doesn't look like a camera bag, and B) doesn't look tacky with a suit. I love the bag but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else unless you had similar needs or you really, really care about how your bag looks and money is no object.

When I was shopping around, I found people loyal to every possible well-established brand you can name. This led me to believe that once you've figured out what size you need to hold all your gear, the biggest difference between brands is price and aesthetic appeal. If you're expecting someone to name THE bag that absolutely is head and shoulders above all others then I think you're looking for something that doesn't exist. My recommendation is to figure out what size you need, then pick the bag you think looks the best that is also within your budget.

Every brand offers shoulder and backpack style bags so just pick which one you like best. A backpack is always going to be more comfortable at higher weights, and if I wasn't worried about being "that guy with the backpack" that's what I'd buy. But I am vain and I think shoulder bags make you look less dorky and so I try to stick with those. I do have a backpack for if I ever go hiking in the wilderness or whatever, but if I'm shooting in the city or at a club or wherever then I'm going shoulder bag. It all depends on what you value the most personally.

Fists Up
Apr 9, 2007

In Europe they are just gonna take a bag regardless of whats in it if you have it lying around. Its not like they walk around with the intention of getting cameras. They just look for people who look like they are easy targets or who look clueless.

Same goes for any place really. Unless its a film camera anything is worth money and you're probably going to have you camera out a lot of the time anyway.

With that said I just use a leather shoulder bag from tanner goods because 99% of camera bags look like poo poo. But if I have to carry all my gear then i take a proper backpack.

Ferris Bueller
May 12, 2001

"It is his fault he didn't lock the garage."

geeves posted:

^^^^ My Lowepro is like that and it's nice, but the bag overall is too bulky for everyday use. Only run into problems if I want to switch lenses quickly. Which leads me to ask:

What's a decent shoulder bag for walking around Europe without broadcasting that "I have a lot of money invested in the contents of my bag"? Perhaps something that can also carry a 13in MacBook?

Here's the shoulder bag I carried around Europe. My computer was a 10" Asus but you could get a MacBook in there no problem.

Pics of the retrospective 30.


Canon 7d with 17-55 with the hood on. There is a "laptop" sleeve behind the camera.


Here's two pictures of it in action. For reference I'm 165# and 6 feet tall on a good gravity day.

My normal carrying position



How I would have it if I were taking pictures.

evil_bunnY
Apr 2, 2003

Fists Up posted:

In Europe they are just gonna take a bag regardless of whats in it if you have it lying around.
In America they will shoot you, then take the bag regardless of what it looks like.

Klogdor
Jul 17, 2007
So has anyone bumped into the National Geographic line of messenger bags/backpacks ? I kind of want http://www.adorama.com/NGSBM.html <- that one, but I'm not sure if they are crap or not. need to carry a smallsh body, 3 lenses, and some small extras.. oh , and a netbook. any opinions ?

Pompous Rhombus
Mar 11, 2007

evil_bunnY posted:

In America they will shoot you, then take the bag regardless of what it looks like.

This happens to tourists all the time in the United States.

benisntfunny
Dec 2, 2004
I'm Perfect.

mr. mephistopheles posted:

You would think so, but no, not really. Also they make a lot of backpacks designed to swoop around your body to pull gear out of quickly.

Personally I always try to find something to set my stuff down on to change lenses because trying to juggle several hundred to several thousand dollars in my hands to save maybe 60 seconds feels pretty stupid.

I've always found backpacks to be a pain in the rear end. I had a few LowePro ones that I was never overly happy with. I felt like the weight distribution was semi awkward on those models. With my 7 Million Dollar home I can easily get to my gear and at times have used the bag to rest things on top of it while I'm switching out lenses.

Edit: Backpacks are also hot as gently caress and make my back sweaty.

subx
Jan 12, 2003

If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

Fists Up posted:

In Europe they are just gonna take a bag regardless of whats in it if you have it lying around. Its not like they walk around with the intention of getting cameras. They just look for people who look like they are easy targets or who look clueless.

Well yea, no one is saying that being a low-key type bag is going to make it theft-proof. But it's still nice to not be announcing "REALLY EXPENSIVE poo poo HERE" everywhere you go.

evil_bunnY
Apr 2, 2003

Pompous Rhombus posted:

This happens to tourists all the time in the United States.
It's what I've heard, it must be true!

Re: NG bags, my understanding was that those are bags from other makers that they slap a logo and a price hike on.

Klogdor
Jul 17, 2007

evil_bunnY posted:

Re: NG bags, my understanding was that those are bags from other makers that they slap a logo and a price hike on.

They seem to have a kind of unique design? very 1953 climbing the himalaya looking..

subx
Jan 12, 2003

If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

evil_bunnY posted:

It's what I've heard, it must be true!

Re: NG bags, my understanding was that those are bags from other makers that they slap a logo and a price hike on.

They might be made by other companies, but I think they are unique designs. Overpriced though, yes.

ExecuDork
Feb 25, 2007

We might be fucked, sir.
Fallen Rib
My local camera shop (which is quite good overall) carries the National Geographic bags. They are distinctive, if nothing else - they certainly do look 1950's-on-assignment-like, which is almost certainly what the designers / marketeers were going for. I really like them, for the look and for the materials, they seem very well made when I've been in there fondling them. The problem is, they're fairly expensive.

I'm planning to swing by the shop Saturday, they seem to carry the full line of LowePro, Think Tank, Crumpler, and NG bags. I saw one Domke (with an "employee favourite" label on it), possibly the F2 (can't remember exactly) a few weeks ago, but I've never seen a Kata there.

Let me know what you're curious about and I'll try to check that out specifically. I like just browsing the store, too much stuff that tempts me so...

DJExile
Jun 28, 2007


subx posted:

They might be made by other companies, but I think they are unique designs. Overpriced though, yes.

Promaster just made some similar ones. I saw them in a local store for more around $60-70.

Klogdor
Jul 17, 2007

ExecuDork posted:

My local camera shop (which is quite good overall) carries the National Geographic bags. They are distinctive, if nothing else - they certainly do look 1950's-on-assignment-like, which is almost certainly what the designers / marketeers were going for. I really like them, for the look and for the materials, they seem very well made when I've been in there fondling them. The problem is, they're fairly expensive.

I'm planning to swing by the shop Saturday, they seem to carry the full line of LowePro, Think Tank, Crumpler, and NG bags. I saw one Domke (with an "employee favourite" label on it), possibly the F2 (can't remember exactly) a few weeks ago, but I've never seen a Kata there.

Let me know what you're curious about and I'll try to check that out specifically. I like just browsing the store, too much stuff that tempts me so...

Hm, well, I dont have anything in particular I need to know, just if it seems like a good bag in general, as long as it looks kind of good, and can keep my gear safer than just having it rattling around in my big drybag thingie... and hopefully feel better to carry around.

so prett much : is it comfy ? :)

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caberham
Mar 18, 2009

by Smythe
Grimey Drawer

Klogdor posted:

So has anyone bumped into the National Geographic line of messenger bags/backpacks ? I kind of want http://www.adorama.com/NGSBM.html <- that one, but I'm not sure if they are crap or not. need to carry a smallsh body, 3 lenses, and some small extras.. oh , and a netbook. any opinions ?

At least it's not a billingham :science: Most bags are not weather proof but I have first hand experience that Crumpler and Tamrac (suspect Lowepro too) are weather resistant in heavy rain. Water won't seep in but does a good job of keeping the compartment relatively dry and safe because of it's thick padding. Not so sure about the NG. I did see a few people getting the fake China Knock offs, instead of a yellow square, it's a triangle.

benisntfunny posted:

I've always found backpacks to be a pain in the rear end. I had a few LowePro ones that I was never overly happy with. I felt like the weight distribution was semi awkward on those models. With my 7 Million Dollar home I can easily get to my gear and at times have used the bag to rest things on top of it while I'm switching out lenses.

Edit: Backpacks are also hot as gently caress and make my back sweaty.

Definitely agree. And during holidays a sweaty back will make you go through your shirts faster. But a full load messenger bag with a shortened strap can get pretty heavy and uncomfortable :smith: But how do you fit a tripod onto a 7 million dollar home? Backpacks have convenient tripod holders.

I have a question for all you bag lovers! I'm going on a 3 week trip across South East Asia carrying a 50D, film body and an assortment of 1 telephoto, 2 primes, 2 zooms, a laptop, speedlite, and maybe a tripod. I will probably stash a few lenses into the room and have stuff on rotation depending on location.

Would you guys go for a 7 million dollar home or a Kata 31N?


caberham fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Nov 26, 2010

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