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likely double-post because I just watched this Luis Scott-Vargas Scars draft and while it's the smart move not to go balls-out infect P1P1 by taking the Chimeric Mass over the Ichorclaw Myr (the only infect card in the pack), I would've pulled the trigger P1P2 and taken the Plague Stinger because not only is it the sole infect card in the pack, but since it's an uncommon that's missing and it's unlikely that the person to the right first picked a Tangle Angler when there's also a Plague Stinger in the pack, it's probably prudent to move in (the only first-pick uncommons that would steer me into infect are Contagion Clasp and Darksteel Axe, and those go into almost anything) I got sad as the infect flowed in later on 
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Nov 22, 2010 23:59
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tgijsola posted:I wish sealed were actually playable. I agree about the draft though. LSV was talking about this a bit, and I think he's dead on: infect is really bad from a limited design perspective. The problem is that it doesn't play well with others, so you're either all in or not in at all. You can either be insanely punished or insanely rewarded for going into it early, but relying on signals is pretty much a moot point because infect dudes are already so sparse and will be ignored by 2/3's of your table by default. You pretty much just have to dive into it and pray, or avoid it like the plague. However, there are so few good colored cards that it's also easy to get cut off in non-infect as well. Since half of every pack is artifacts, it's hard to ascertain if a lack of a color in a couple packs is a signal, or just normal fluctuations.
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Nov 23, 2010 00:00
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I drafted a unique mono blue metalcraft/proliferate when I opened grand architect in my first pack. Highlights were 3 certachs, 2 arbalests, 1 soliton, chimeric mass, mox, 2 thruming birds, necrogen sensor, blue and red trigon. Went 1-1-1, should have been 2-1 except my 2nd match went to time because my opponet took to long and I needed one more turn to win. Theres definetly more then 2 good archtypes to draft.
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Nov 23, 2010 00:12
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The Nastier Nate posted:I drafted a unique mono blue metalcraft/proliferate when I opened grand architect in my first pack. Highlights were 3 certachs, 2 arbalests, 1 soliton, chimeric mass, mox, 2 thruming birds, necrogen sensor, blue and red trigon. Went 1-1-1, should have been 2-1 except my 2nd match went to time because my opponet took to long and I needed one more turn to win. Theres definetly more then 2 good archtypes to draft. The problem with this is that it's a "unique" archetype because of the rarity of its primary components: It would probably be only half as viable without things like the Architect, Arbalests, Thrummingbirds, and Mox tying it together. Drafting around a powerful rare is usually very good strategy: first picking a Tempered Steel certainly affects your card valuation, and if you open a Venser you're generally going to want to be in W/U. However, you can't plan to draft like this; it'd be foolish to pick up an early Memnite in anticipation of a Tempered Steel, likewise an early Soliton expecting an Arbalest to show up. This is also my problem with the B/R Furnace Celebration deck: If the enchantments don't show up, then you're generally left with a bad pile.
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Nov 23, 2010 00:27
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At GP Nashville and the Sunday PTQ (I was 5-3 for the GP) I had 10 amazing rounds of great games (and 1 that sucked because I mulled and drew badly), most of which went 3 games long. Having said that, I'm getting tired of this as a limited format and sealed is hurt heavily by archetype-driven, bomb-heavy sets like this. The set needs a doom blade or two badly to bring it back in check (or alternatively you could remove 4-5 of the top-end critters).
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Nov 23, 2010 00:38
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There are definitely way more than two archetypes, but I have to agree that Scars draft is a bit disappointing, especially after RoE. I still enjoy Sealed quite a bit, though.
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Nov 23, 2010 03:32
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there are more than two archetypes, but despite there being a lot of synergies in archetypes, the archetypes draw too heavily across the pool. There isn't a deck that doesn't want tumble magnet, Darksteel Axe, Arrest, Galvanic Blast, Any Other Good Card (and of course we're ignoring the stack of bombs). Compared to say, ROE, where Bloodthrone Vampire was amazing or lovely based on which black deck you were in, etc, etc, outside of Furnace celebration there aren't cards that change power levels wildly based on the archetype you're in. Obviously tumble magnet is better in a glint hawk/stag deck with a clasp or whatever, but its still always making the cut in any deck you play. The sealed is a bomb-centric format that can lead to interesting plays between two like-power decks, but infect completely fucks two colors just by existing, and the large number of bombs with very limited answers is much higher and further warps the format. Sealed is a more balanced format in core sets than it is in heavy-archetype driven sets, and especially with infect randomly loving a good portion of your pool and the incredibly small number of answers to the 5 toughness bombs makes it depressing to play. Even as I had a total blast at GP Nashville and played 10 of the best matches of magic I've played in months, I'm uninterested in this set. I'm more and more interested in constructed with it now, and I'm usually a limited player, but I think I've seen about all there is too see in sealed for this set. The Masticore/Wurmcoil deck gets your 21 strongest R/W/g cards and then you win your sealed tournament.
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Nov 23, 2010 04:26
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I'm awaiting the inevitable improved removal that is bound to show up in the next two sets. There's no way that we've seen the best that the block has to offer in the ability to take out all of these small toughness creatures. I know that I haven't played in the limited formats that much in this set but I'm just sick and tired of people in my local meta constantly drafting infect. It's not fun (and yes, I'm not building decks that can take infect out) and I'd much rather play constructed until Besieged appears. Also, I've had horrible luck at 4-pack sealed pools. I'm definitely at the low end of variance, but also I'm likely just not good as SOM limited.
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Nov 23, 2010 04:41
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I think that scars is an amazing set to draft and I love it, but I'm probably biased because I have yet to place lower than 3rd in draft since the set came out.
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Nov 23, 2010 04:43
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Pinwiz11 posted:There's no way that we've seen the best that the block has to offer in the ability to take out all of these small toughness creatures. There are stacks of ways to deal with these guys. The 5 toughness colored dudes, masticore, and wurmcoil engine are the ones that we need better removal for.
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Nov 23, 2010 05:30
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Sigma-X posted:There are stacks of ways to deal with these guys. The 5 toughness colored dudes, masticore, and wurmcoil engine are the ones that we need better removal for. I never said that I was good at this Limited format. And besides, I'm not concerned with solutions for Mythics because they're rare enough. I'm looking for things to deal with the early creatures so I can save solutions for the heavy hitters. I also need time to do more limited, but I'm over my FLGS for that format.
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Nov 23, 2010 06:02
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Artifact destruction/expulsion works pretty well. Also if you're in an "infect-happy" meta you should be picking up dumb infect creatures like ichorclaw myr, cystbearer or blight mamba as a superior blocker against other infect creatures. If they stick around, they also serve as a decent clock with any high-pick equipment and can make Ichor rats a double-edged card. Even having a "grey ogre" Infectious Nym is a decent choice in a B/x deck. I've had Cystbearer in my G/R FattyRamp+Removal and never regretted it.
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Nov 23, 2010 06:09
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Speaking of sealed, I wanted to pick up some packs so I decided to use the opportunity as practice for the next time I get to do an FNM sealed. It also gives you a chance to tell me I'm an idiot for thinking poison is the way to go in this pool. P.S. I'm lying about that, it hangs right on the border of being poison playable. I'm just going to let Deckstats handle the list here, since it'd be a nasty wall of text otherwise. Here's a Pool For You! Grand Architect and Prototype Portal were both foil, along with a foil swamp (baller). Also note that we should be enjoying the double Grindclock. At least it functions as a somewhat consistent alternate win condition if needed. Very likely a sideboard deal, though it might be considerable as main. Ok, the first thing to do here is take all the blue, black, and red, and just put them aside. Double riddlesmith is nice, but not enough to warrant blue. Black is outright weak unless we want to force infect (which we don't), and Assault Strobe is worth considering as a splash. If you had to force me to make a deck out of this I'd probably go this way right off: Deck: Untitled Deck 2x Arrest 2x Glimmerpoint Stag 1x Glint Hawk 1x Revoke Existence 1x Kemba's Skyguard 1x Tempered Steel 1x Ghalma's Warden 1x Gold Myr 1x Glint Hawk Idol 1x Origin Spellbomb 1x Panic Spellbomb 1x Memnite 1x Chrome Steed 1x Sylvok Replica 2x Sylvok Lifestaff 1x Perilous Myr 1x Nim Deathmantle 1x Palladium Myr 1x Rust Tick 1x Tumble Magnet 1x Contagion Clasp 11x Plains 5x Forest  Display Deck StatisticsBut I probably just suck at this.
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Nov 23, 2010 06:24
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Finally got to do this in 8-4 final this weekend: Click here for the full 1680x1050 image. If MTGO had achievements, that surely would be one for Scars! (also, yet another Hoard-Smelter I never played during the whole draft)
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Nov 23, 2010 06:31
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YeehawMcKickass posted:Speaking of sealed, I wanted to pick up some packs so I decided to use the opportunity as practice for the next time I get to do an FNM sealed. It also gives you a chance to tell me I'm an idiot for thinking poison is the way to go in this pool. P.S. I'm lying about that, it hangs right on the border of being poison playable. My paper prerelease final was against BW poison with Tempered Steel boosting several Infect artifacts, but I don't really think that's reliable enough. I think you're light enough on single, high power win condition cards that UW is the way to go here. You play both your artifact Anthem and your artifact lord with both the Riddlesmiths and aim for 14-15 artifacts minimum. I'd even splash in Sylvok Replica activation mana with single Forest and Horizon Spellbomb. Then you'd have several nice two card combos that can be pretty brutal if they stick (Soliton + Arbalest, Replica + Deathmantle).
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Nov 23, 2010 07:46
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Lunael posted:Finally got to do this in 8-4 final this weekend: I did this at the Scars, pre-release, except my opponent's field was turn 4 Rusted Relic into turn 5 Precursor Golem. I untapped (turn 6), 4 for 2'd him (he goes from 17 to 3), and I swing with my other creature for lethal. He called me an rear end in a top hat and left since I was laughing so hard that Wizards would put such a ridiculous interaction in limited.
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Nov 23, 2010 08:34
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Hah that's great. My only good prerelease story is turn 5 (?) Liege of the Tangle on game three with two minutes to go.
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Nov 23, 2010 13:44
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YeehawMcKickass posted:Speaking of sealed, I wanted to pick up some packs so I decided to use the opportunity as practice for the next time I get to do an FNM sealed. It also gives you a chance to tell me I'm an idiot for thinking poison is the way to go in this pool. P.S. I'm lying about that, it hangs right on the border of being poison playable. Also, what's going on with your green here? Forests just for your one Sylvok Replica? I would have thrown in Alpha Tyrranax; he's a big, non-artifact fatty that's very hard to deal with in this format. Molder Beast can also be okay. I'm not sure if you have quite enough artifact dudes for tempered steel; you're right on the border.
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Nov 23, 2010 17:48
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YeehawMcKickass posted:Here's a Pool For You! God this is all wrong. 1) Double riddlesmith is the loving nuts. Especially with GRAND loving ARCHITECT AND SKY EEL IN BLUE. 2) You do not "force" infect (or anything else) in sealed. 'force' means picking the non-best cards in a draft repeatedly to ensure that that archetype/color is not represented to your left and to help cut down on the number of people trying to get into it. 3) Assault strobe is not a card you splash. Assault strobe is a sometimes food. Here's a rough draft of the deck. I cut the tempered steel and some artifact dudes that I want to bring back, and there is certainly a deck where we do that, but I think this one is probably better than relying on substandard guys that need 1 card to get really nuts. The overarching goal is to get a deathmantle/replica thing going on, or a portal/replica thing, and we've got the riddlesmiths to help us make sure we get some of our cool kid pairings up. lifestaff lifestaff deathmantle portal flight spellbomb glint hawk idol perilous myr gold myr origin spellbomb riddlesmith riddlesmith glint hawk ghalma's warden grand architect steed rust tick sylvok replica neurok replica clasp magnet arrest arrest revoke existence 7 plains 7 island 3 forest
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Nov 23, 2010 18:27
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Just for clarification, I throw up these intentionally middling lists to get you guys started on what you'd with the pool. They're literally lists built as if you handed me the pool and said "you have five minutes to make a 40 card deck".
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Nov 23, 2010 19:00
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YeehawMcKickass posted:Just for clarification, I throw up these intentionally middling lists to get you guys started on what you'd with the pool. They're literally lists built as if you handed me the pool and said "you have five minutes to make a 40 card deck". I know, and that's my 5 minute deck list and disagreements made with your arguments. Also it should be noted that I love to argue this poo poo, it's nothing personal. I think Karnegal and I spent about 4 hours on the card ride back arguing about magic cards.
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Nov 23, 2010 19:21
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Any place other than http://ccgdecks.com/sealed_gen.php to practice sealed decks? The interface for building a deck is pretty awful. edit: I generated a sealed pool and exported, so I can build on pretty much any deck site. Edmonton PTQ is this Sunday and I'm thinking about going. I've been doing pretty well at my local drafts since I started a few months ago and want to see what a bigger tournament is all about. Anyone have any advice for things to expect? hmm yes fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Nov 23, 2010 |
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Nov 23, 2010 19:26
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Sigma-X posted:I know, and that's my 5 minute deck list and disagreements made with your arguments. Why do you think I keep doing this? I like seeing everyone coming back and arguing over what's effective and what isn't. Plus you come back with really good decklists. You're down around Champaign-Urbana, right?
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Nov 23, 2010 19:37
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atastypie posted:Any place other than http://ccgdecks.com/sealed_gen.php to practice sealed decks? The interface for building a deck is pretty awful. edit: I generated a sealed pool and exported, so I can build on pretty much any deck site. expect to open an awesome pool, register it, pass it to some gently caress who will misbuild and misplay his 6 shatter pool, while you go 1-2 with a middling pool. Also, some people will randomly be pricks. PTQs aren't that much different than any other tournament outside of deck registration being serious business. Yeah me and Karnegal are in Champaign-Urbana. Probably going to the PTQ in Chicago in 2 weeks.
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Nov 23, 2010 19:40
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I may have to try to swing up to the PTQ to meet with you guys and argue about cards and pools.
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Nov 23, 2010 20:21
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I am about 90% sure of being able to make it out to the Chicago PTQ as well.
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Nov 23, 2010 21:45
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Pinwiz11 posted:I know that I haven't played in the limited formats that much in this set but I'm just sick and tired of people in my local meta constantly drafting infect. It's not fun (and yes, I'm not building decks that can take infect out) and I'd much rather play constructed until Besieged appears. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Infect is an archetype in this format, and people are going to play it. If a bunch of people in the same pod are playing it, then their decks are going to be weaker so that means more wins for you. If you're sick of the same people playing infect over and over again, sit to their right and take all their picks  Also, why aren't you building decks that don't roll over to infect? I don't really see how Beseiged is going to make Infect less prevalent. I doubt they'd invalidate a mechanic that is about a quarter of the format.
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Nov 23, 2010 23:44
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If anything we're going to see more infect-focused cards. I just hope that Besieged helps firm up archetypes in this format a bit more, with more artifacts that aren't just universally good in every loving deck.
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Nov 24, 2010 00:08
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Lone Goat posted:If you're sick of the same people playing infect over and over again, sit to their right and take all their picks Because it's easy to set up the optimal seating when it's random. quote:Also, why aren't you building decks that don't roll over to infect? Because I suck at this format because I haven't played it enough.  Honestly, that's the answer.quote:I don't really see how Beseiged is going to make Infect less prevalent. I doubt they'd invalidate a mechanic that is about a quarter of the format. I just think that there will be more tools to prevent a quick Infect victory than currently. A big element to my disliking SOM limited right now lies solely on the TO at my FLGS. He's a nice guy, but he's really annoying me in many ways (including ALWAYS drafting Infect and bragging about it) and frankly being a bad TO. So I can either go to one store and draft and not have fun (and in the case of last Friday wait way too long for the supposed Constructed event to fire which never did) or go elsewhere and spend my FNM time playing Standard. I do enjoy Limited, so hopefully I'll get more into the format later on. Fortunately, I've finally found time to play in a friend's casual drafts and it's much more entertaining. Unfortunately, I've only been able to make it to one.
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Nov 24, 2010 00:47
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Pinwiz11 posted:Because it's easy to set up the optimal seating when it's random. The key to dealing with infect is having repeatable answers to the ground-based infect dudes. This includes myrsmith, embersmith, wall of tanglecord (takes forever for them to kill it), trigon of corruption (the black one), etc. In general you want to trade for their creatures one-to-one in combat as often as possible, saving removal for plague stinger, tangle angler, and ichorclaw myr, as these are the most difficult ones to deal with. Outside of blight mamba and the angler, all of their dudes are pretty flimsy. Against infect you want to aggressively keep them off getting the first few poison counters in. Trade with their early dudes, and if you have a myr smith or something similar don't hesitate to toss the guys in front of cystbearers, etc. they usually will get to proliferate 2-3 counters onto you, so your goal is to stretch out getting to 7 to 8 for as long as possible. red and white are the best colors for dealing with infect. First strike is very useful against them, so being able to suit up shikaris or having saberclaw golem (this dude is way good for a 4/2 for 5, there are 3 first strikers in this format, and they're him, shikari, and bladed pinions. That's it! Seize the intiative also exists, but its not permanent and is a fairly weak trick) is pretty useful. Galvanic blast is great to keep up to respond to an untamed might, and turn to slag lets you 2 for 1 their guys if they're suiting up. Soul Parry also does a lot of work, since you can prevent two of their dudes from doing damage and actually gang block effectively or otherwise punish them.
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Nov 24, 2010 01:59
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Sigma-X posted:I just hope that Besieged helps firm up archetypes in this format a bit more, with more artifacts that aren't just universally good in every loving deck. What's wrong with good artifacts?
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Nov 24, 2010 03:13
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MizuZero posted:What's wrong with good artifacts? Compared to ROE, where the power level of an individual card varied greatly based on the archetype it was going in, very few of the playable artifacts don't just go in every deck. Right now the archetypes outside of infect are really nothing more than the colors of your removal and extra dudes. I'd like to see that shored up more. Since I got back into magic at ARB, ROE has been the most skill-intensive, open (as in there are many archetypes that are all good, instead of R/W being head and shoulders above everything), and fun limited format I've played. Scars is about M10 level of quality.
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Nov 24, 2010 03:21
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Tonight I won a draft with a deck featuring Mimic Vat (P1P1), Precursor Golem (P1P2) and Steel Hellkite (passed to me somehow). Snacksmaniac fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Nov 24, 2010 |
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Nov 24, 2010 04:28
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MizuZero posted:What's wrong with good artifacts? The issue is also a general lack of answers that aren't white to these artifacts. Masticore is just such a busted piece of poo poo in sealed that he rolls over so many pools. Don't have white removal? Nothing non-white really deals with him except for Gasp of Darkness and Volition Reins. Bonds of quicksilver tap hm down, but he can still kill you 4 damage at a time. Bombs on the whole are really problematic in this limited environment, but particularly in sealed. I can't wait until extended season starts and we can get back to real magic. Draft is fine, but sealed is such a loving joke, and the GP has gone far in convincing me of that. It's fine for set releases/pre-releases, but any time you're playing 8-10 rounds of magic, the issue of pool strength just becomes glaringly obvious.
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Nov 24, 2010 04:32
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Pretty Hat Machine posted:Tonight I won a draft with a deck featuring Mimic Vat (P1P1), Precursor Golem (P1P2) and Steel Hellkite (passed to me somehow). luckily scars makes sure you can play those with any of the cards you draft! Artifact blocks, yay! Seriously who the gently caress passes those cards.
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Nov 24, 2010 04:32
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Really dumb people. Is Golem a P1P1? He seems really awesome (9 power) but has that weird drawback. I was almost on the wrong end of a Flesh Allergy, but Skinrendered it, put it on vat, then won. Steel Hellkite though. Seriously. I can only think of one non-mythic I want more. Snacksmaniac fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Nov 24, 2010 |
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Nov 24, 2010 04:34
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I really enjoyed Rise as a draft format, but I can only think of three cards that fluctuate wildly in value depending on if you were in their particular archetype: Venerated Teacher, Bloodthrone Vampire, and Vent Sentinel. Am I missing any egregious examples? Of the aforementioned three, only Vent Sentinel is wholly separate from the set's featured mechanics (Level Up for the Teacher and Eldrazi Tokens for the Vampire). With that in mind, Venerated Teacher's analogous to Corpse Cur, and Bloodthrone Vampire's similar to Sunspear Shikari. Granted, Tumble Magnet and Perilous Myr go into pretty much everything, not to mention the many colorless bombs at rare, but is this a bad thing? It's always nice to be able to play a bomb you open in the third pack, and unless the rest of the pack is garbage you're shipping off something good to take that bomb, so it evens out, no? Scars is peculiar in that there's a higher threshold of "safe" picks than in most other draft formats. Often, I won't be committed to a color until midway through the second pack. Because of this, sending signals ostensibly isn't as prevalent, and a color can support many more players in the pod than it usually could. That said, because Red and White are largely agreed upon as the best colors in the set, there can be upwards of five or six players in those colors at the table, diluting the strength level of each accordingly. Similarly, it's well-known that Green/Black Infect is a very fast archetype; however, barring Skithirix, a table can reliably support only two Infect drafters before being in the archetype becomes a losing proposition. As such, drafting Scars successfully requires a significant amount of metagaming— since Red/White is highly prized, is it worth it to go into those colors? Is that P1P1 Arc Trail ultimately going to end up a splash at best, and so would it be better to take the Darksteel Axe? How badly would trying to force G/B Infect hurt you if it doesn't pan out? Since Blue is most likely underdrafted, can you take the Tumble Magnet and wheel this pack one Sky-Eel School, or will you end up sending someone who's been just taking artifacts into Blue? It's definitely not like Rise— since it often isn't clear-cut what is and isn't open, it ends up being quite the test of intuition and savvy. With that said, I play exclusively paper, so perhaps knowing the proclivities of the regulars at the stores I play at and being able to see their faces during the draft colors my perceptions of the format. However, I'm having more fun drafting Scars than I ever did with Eldrazi, though I'd say Rise has the more exciting board states of the two. Also, Scars doesn't have a 2/1 flier with "8: Win the game" at common. 
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Nov 24, 2010 04:47
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MizuZero posted:Also, Scars doesn't have a 2/1 flier with "8: Win the game" at common. There were a lot of ways to deal with Dawnglare Invoker. If it blew you out in more games than the first one it appeared in, you hosed up. Pretty Hat Machine posted:Really dumb people. Golem is stupid powerful. Even if he just gets revoked then he's the same as any other powerful artifact dude that they remove. If he gets to attack as a team even once he goes very far to taking over the game for you. If he swings with his pals twice, you probably won that game, unless you were really hosed before you played him.
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Nov 24, 2010 04:52
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Karnegal posted:The issue is also a general lack of answers that aren't white to these artifacts. Masticore is just such a busted piece of poo poo in sealed that he rolls over so many pools. Don't have white removal? Nothing non-white really deals with him except for Gasp of Darkness and Volition Reins. Bonds of quicksilver tap hm down, but he can still kill you 4 damage at a time. Bombs on the whole are really problematic in this limited environment, but particularly in sealed. sideboard in as many Psychic Miasmas as you got  Masticore is definitely gross, but he's Mythic, so he doesn't show up a lot. However, there are times in which your opponent doesn't have regeneration mana up, and the card is extraordiarily mana-hungry, so you do have small windows of opportunity to deal with it. A far more dangerous creature is Liege of the Tangle: If it hits the board and you don't have an Arrest or a Flesh Allergy, it's probably over. There are always a few Mythics that are both completely broken and almost impossible to deal with in Limited, though— Gideon Jura in Rise, Grave Titan in M11, etc.
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Nov 24, 2010 05:02
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Karnegal posted:There were a lot of ways to deal with Dawnglare Invoker. If it blew you out in more games than the first one it appeared in, you hosed up. Sure, take my throwaway joke as the main point of that post, cool. It's simple enough dealing with one, especially once you've seen it, but since they're at common many decks will have multiples, because the people around the W/U fliers guy were picking up Kiln Fiends and Kozilek's Predators. Yes, I hosed up because I didn't expect a third Dawnglare Invoker. Oops Are you guys sure you're not just letting your hatred for Sealed color your perception of the format?
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Nov 24, 2010 05:12
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