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baka kaba posted:I'm pretty sure the SR300 and the GSR200 both have passive pickups, and it's the EQ things on each that are active - so they're not actually active basses, and the battery's for the magic EQ systems that you don't need to use. I'm pretty new to bass myself though, just throwing that disclaimer in there! That's my next step. Mostly I've just been watching various reviews on youtube of each of these, or if I see something used I haven't heard of I'll look that up. From what I've read here it's hard to really go wrong with Squiers or Ibanez, it's all just a matter of getting the right feel and tone out of it. Versitility is probably why I lean towards J over P, but until I play around with them I can't be sure. I'd really like to know what people think of the Squier VM Jaguar...there hasn't been much talk in here about it.
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Nov 22, 2010 03:01
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Scarf posted:It's still considered an "Active" bass. Basses with both active electronics AND active pickups are pretty rare in the mainstream market. Pretty much if it has a battery in it, it's considered active, whether its just the preamp, pickups, or both. Quoting realtalk in case you missed it  By the way the straight-up GSR200 is a P/J type, like my bass - I haven't played a real P to compare (and it's been a while since I tried out a Fender Jazz) but I do like the difference in tone I get from switching between pickups. The P pickup has a nice solid thump to it, and it's really fun to play over the fretboard and pretend I sound like an upright bass. Anyone got any insight about real P and J basses compared to hybrids? Also non-bass question, anyone remember a guy in here named Prolix (possible old username/performing name) who posted a cover of an F-Zero track? I randomly ran across it a while back and remembered how fun it sounded, inspired me to learn the actual bassline http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJCmbipfnyA
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Nov 22, 2010 03:15
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Perhaps some of you can help me out with this effects question: What kind of filter/envelope/other pedals should I be looking at to get a Bootsy Collins-type funk sound? I'm looking at a Micro QTron and MXR M82 on eBay, but I don't know if those will give me the sound I want. Help me goon bass-gods!
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Nov 22, 2010 03:17
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DRP Solved! posted:Perhaps some of you can help me out with this effects question: What kind of filter/envelope/other pedals should I be looking at to get a Bootsy Collins-type funk sound? I'm looking at a Micro QTron and MXR M82 on eBay, but I don't know if those will give me the sound I want. Help me goon bass-gods! The MXR is a great pedal. I personally use the EHX Enigma, but it can be a bit unwieldy if you don't have much experience with envelope filters. The MXR can cover the Micro Q and much more, so I'd def. take the MXR between those two. Edit: But I'm actually looking at a Source Audio bass envelope filter. I really want to try one out, it's digital, so that'll be a change. But it's basically like an amp-modeler, but for famous envelope filters. http://www.sourceaudio.net/products/soundblox/bass_envelope.php Scarf fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Nov 22, 2010 |
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Nov 22, 2010 03:27
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Pehther posted:I could probably figure this out with a little googling, and I'm admittedly just starting to learn about the bass guitar, but the SR300 is an active bass. What happens without a battery? Does it go passive and sound like the GSR200? I used to have an Ibanez bass - can't remember the model, but it was split-pickup and active eq. When the battery died it stopped making sound entirely. Not to generalize across the entire Ibanez line, that has been my anecdotal experience.
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Nov 22, 2010 03:37
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Pehther posted:That's my next step. Mostly I've just been watching various reviews on youtube of each of these, or if I see something used I haven't heard of I'll look that up. From what I've read here it's hard to really go wrong with Squiers or Ibanez, it's all just a matter of getting the right feel and tone out of it. Versitility is probably why I lean towards J over P, but until I play around with them I can't be sure. FWIW there's a group of people at talkbass that love it. Check out the thread over at their forums and you'll find a lot of info. The VM and CV in general are very highly regarded for the price. My guitarist has one of the 50s P basses (as well as 3 of the guitars) and I like it a lot.
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Nov 22, 2010 04:23
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I've got an opportunity to buy a Markbass CMD 102P at a pretty good price. I didn't think I'd ever get a combo again but I'm thinking of hooking this up to a markbass 15 inch external cab, since it's essentially a LMII combined with 210s. I hear good things about this combo in most reviews, but every now and then one pops up claiming that after a year or two the amp completely failed and had to be repaired. Since it's used, I'm concerned about durability/reliability especially since I can't really get a warranty on it and it would need to be shipped to Italy to be repaired. Does anyone have any long term experience with these combos?
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Nov 24, 2010 00:18
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lookitsjoe posted:I've got an opportunity to buy a Markbass CMD 102P at a pretty good price. I didn't think I'd ever get a combo again but I'm thinking of hooking this up to a markbass 15 inch external cab, since it's essentially a LMII combined with 210s. I don't have any experience with that combo specifically, but Mark Bass is pretty drat quality. There's always going to be a lemon or dud in the mix when you're mass producing a product. The thing you want to look at is the customer service provided by Mark Bass. I can understand and deal with some equipment having problems, but what makes or breaks the situation is how the company handles it. And you don't have to be under warranty to get great service... I'd do some searching over at TalkBass and see what kind of experience people have with that combo and with MB's customer service.
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Nov 24, 2010 03:38
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I'm looking to buy a combo amp that is small enough that I can use with my upright, but powerful enough where I could use it in jam situations and maybe even gigs with my electric. I've been impressed by GKs new combo series though I haven't actually heard them. I hear good stuff about Markbass too. I've tried a Line 6 bass amp that has either a 1x10 or a 1x8 in it and I've been impressed by that, although it's a little too quiet.
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Nov 24, 2010 04:44
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I have an SWR workinpro 12. It's 200 watts with one 12 inch speaker. It's actually very powerful and sounds great on my fretless j bass. I'm not sure how it would sound on an upright. Bottom line is I love the combo. Very portable, sounds great, not underpowered. Also you can tilt it back which is pretty neat feature. manic mike fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Nov 24, 2010 |
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Nov 24, 2010 05:00
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Finally, after two months in the shop it's fixed   Click here for the full 800x1067 image.
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Nov 24, 2010 05:29
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Noise Machine posted:I'm looking to buy a combo amp that is small enough that I can use with my upright, but powerful enough where I could use it in jam situations and maybe even gigs with my electric. I've been impressed by GKs new combo series though I haven't actually heard them. I hear good stuff about Markbass too. I've tried a Line 6 bass amp that has either a 1x10 or a 1x8 in it and I've been impressed by that, although it's a little too quiet. What is your budget? Honestly I'd look towards Genz Benz or Mark Bass since they're the most "uncolored" sounding amps in my opinion, and will really help to bring out the natural tone of your upright. And actually, Genz Benz's shuttles are "combo-like" since they can lock into the speaker cabinets. And then you have room to expand later should you want to. http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Genz-Benz-Shuttle-6.012T-600-Watt-Lightweight-Bass-1x12-Combo?sku=482111 http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Genz-Benz-Shuttle-3.010T-300W-1x10-Bass-Combo?sku=482108 http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Genz-Benz-Shuttle-6.0210T-600-Watt-Lightweight-Bass-2x10-Combo?sku=482112
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Nov 24, 2010 05:48
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lookitsjoe posted:I've got an opportunity to buy a Markbass CMD 102P at a pretty good price. I didn't think I'd ever get a combo again but I'm thinking of hooking this up to a markbass 15 inch external cab, since it's essentially a LMII combined with 210s. Yes. I have one. Never had a lick of a problem. Been gigged quite a bit, but kept clean with a cover. With the external cab, it rocks. With the 2x10, and kickback, it is a great gigging or practice amp. Versatile, because it isn't colored too much. What do you want to know?
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Nov 24, 2010 07:39
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Flexible budget ($100 - 300, can go more, no big) Bass: GSR200 Looking for an at-home / jamming with my one guitar-playing friend amp. Any suggestions? Looking at the BX1800; but hey - want more options.
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Nov 24, 2010 14:36
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Spikeness posted:Finally, after two months in the shop it's fixed Is that a copy or did the fixing include swapping the original truss rod cover? I'm GASing for a Rickenbacker but there's no way in hell I'll ever (or at least before graduating from uni and getting a decent paying job) shell out +2000 euros for one. I have never even played the drat thing and would probably have to get it without trying. Other option would be trying to get one used but they'd still cost around +1500 euros and there aren't many of them around in Finland. Anyways, if this happens to be a copy, what brand is it and where did you get it? I've come across one decent Indie Ric copy that played like butter and the variety of tones it spat out was admirable. Too bad I despise the non-ric headstock and had to leave it at the store. Now I'm thinking of tracking down some knock-offs by Shine since they apparently are of quite decent worksmanship. The cheapest and OK looking Ric copy I've seen was at Tradetang: http://www.tradetang.com/for-sale/Wholesales-2010-11-New-Arrival-Rickenbacker-4-String-Electric-Bass-Guitar-/127868-2591405.html
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Nov 24, 2010 19:26
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These Loving Eyes posted:Is that a copy or did the fixing include swapping the original truss rod cover? I'm GASing for a Rickenbacker but there's no way in hell I'll ever (or at least before graduating from uni and getting a decent paying job) shell out +2000 euros for one. I have never even played the drat thing and would probably have to get it without trying. Other option would be trying to get one used but they'd still cost around +1500 euros and there aren't many of them around in Finland. I would advise not to get a copy without playing it first at least and really really thinking about it. You're GASing for a Ric, not a fake Ric, there's good odds that even once you've got your copy you will still be GASing for the real thing. I would just advise saving up your money.
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Nov 24, 2010 19:30
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I too am currently GASing for a Rick. I did some minor repair work on a 4001 that belongs to a friend of mine, and I could not believe how wonderful that thing felt and sounded. I have always dug the way they looked but had never actually gotten to play one until quite recently. I am currently considering selling off a few basses that haven't been getting much play this year (a Bongo 4 HH, a Geddy, maybe a Highway One P) to fund it, but I am not sure if I would later regret it, simply because I haven't gotten to spend much time with one. Plus there's the whole waiting list/basically same price new or used to deal with. Despite all of this, I have a huge boner for a Rick.
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Nov 24, 2010 20:00
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70s Japanese copies (mostly Ibanez but a few other badges too) often go for between $600 and $800. If you look really hard you might find an 80s Greco. Most of the Ibanez ones are bolt-on but well built. A few are neck-through but those tend to run in excess of $1000 when they turn up. The Ibanez copies get good reviews for sound and playability, and I believe they're routed properly for correct replacement pickups if you're so inclined. I'm super into MIJ copies so I think the cool factor is nearly equal to a real Ric; you may feel differently. If you're strapped for cash though and want the look and sound for much less money it's well worth watching ebay for when they appear. Rickenbacker is super vigilant about any and all copies so they often get taken down. For those concerned about the legality or morality: I personally draw the line at companies that produce exact cosmetic copies and include the brand name and other identifying marks. So a fake Ric that's designed to be sold as a real one is not an option for me. A 70s copy with a different badge on the headstock and obvious differences visible from up close, I have less of a problem with. The good folks at Rickenbacker appear to feel differently though. Fake edit: Thanks to Schecter, if you want a bass that seems to have been designed by someone who had only ever had a 4001 described to them, you're in luck.  I actually think it's an okay-looking instrument, but with a 34" scale and MM/J pickups it lacks some of the most important features that inspire people to own Rics.
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Nov 24, 2010 20:53
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Epi Lepi posted:I would advise not to get a copy without playing it first at least and really really thinking about it. You're GASing for a Ric, not a fake Ric, there's good odds that even once you've got your copy you will still be GASing for the real thing. I would just advise saving up your money. I'd never buy a bass without trying it out first unless there was some atrocious bargain (and even then I'd expect something fishy to be going on). To be honest, I guess I'm more GASing for the aesthetics than the actual instrument now. If that design comes with great playability and biting sound, I just can't resist it. I've heard quite a many soundclips and liked what I've heard but still haven't touched nor even seen the thing in real life. For me, I'd be drat content with a similar looking instrument that'd deliver a killer sound. It isn't the brand nor even the specific sound for me. Even though I'm an idiot for trying find a bass based more on the aesthetics than the more important factors, I'll never buy a Ric copy nor the actual thing if it doesn't feel or sound good if my get my hands on one. Ferrous Wheel posted:Useful information Oh, and I've always found that Stargazer ugly as gently caress. I like the color scheme but somehow the pickguard and headstock shapes aren't doing it for me. If I wasn't a retard, I should probably get a P-bass to accompany my J. The design and playability come a little too close to make it feel like a refreshing new purchase. Maybe I should track down some tele type Fender. I just want to have that charm of novelty when I bring a new bass home. 
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Nov 24, 2010 21:24
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Schatten posted:Yes. I have one. Never had a lick of a problem. Been gigged quite a bit, but kept clean with a cover. With the external cab, it rocks. With the 2x10, and kickback, it is a great gigging or practice amp. Versatile, because it isn't colored too much. What do you want to know? Well this guy is selling one that's 3 years old for more than half the list price, and he lives about 2 hours away from me making it a 4 hour round trip to pick up. I'm just a little wary about the age of the amp and the travel time and all. I'm on the verge of picking up a Markbass 115 Standard for a decent deal and I've got a GK head, so I'm thinking of just riding it out and seeing if he lowers the price or if some other Markbass 210 cab comes along. Size and weight is a big priority of mine because I can't lug this Ampeg 410 HLF around anymore, especially considering I have to sell my Jeep soon. Scarf posted:There's always going to be a lemon or dud in the mix when you're mass producing a product. My question then is: does anyone have any experience dealing with Markbass customer service without a warranty?
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Nov 24, 2010 21:36
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lookitsjoe posted:Well this guy is selling one that's 3 years old for more than half the list price, and he lives about 2 hours away from me making it a 4 hour round trip to pick up. I'm just a little wary about the age of the amp and the travel time and all. I'm on the verge of picking up a Markbass 115 Standard for a decent deal and I've got a GK head, so I'm thinking of just riding it out and seeing if he lowers the price or if some other Markbass 210 cab comes along. 42#'s. What is the price? And how banged up is it?
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Nov 25, 2010 00:08
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These Loving Eyes posted:For some reason I find the idea of owning a copy that's a decent instrument by itself more tempting than saving up for the real thing. Would feel more unique or something. Other benefits include not needing to worry as much about gigging a high-dollar investment, and not playing what amounts to the musical equivalent of bling. These Loving Eyes posted:Oh, and I've always found that Stargazer ugly as gently caress. I like the color scheme but somehow the pickguard and headstock shapes aren't doing it for me. Yeah, I definitely don't think I'd own one myself but I figured it warranted mentioning since it seems to be as close as any major company has ever come to a production Ric copy that didn't result in a lawsuit. quote:Maybe I should track down some tele type Fender. Do it. Also note that Schecter makes some really cool P-bass copies that are much nicer looking than the Stargazer. And if "not like a J-bass" is the main criterion there are lots of cool choices.
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Nov 25, 2010 00:44
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A local shop has an Ampeg 806 classic and I'm on the fence. They're asking $450 for it, it was made in the US, and it's in pretty decent condition. Does anyone have any experience with these? When I turned it up and fed it more bass than I do with my 2x12 it sounded REALLY good.
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Nov 25, 2010 01:51
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I just got a used Zvex Mastotron today, and I can already tell I think I'm going to love it. I always thought the Fuzz Factory was really cool in terms of how crazy it can get, but it seems like the Mastotron will be way better on bass. The sub switch should works well (basically choosing normal, less, or more bass) and I really like being able to dial in the amount of fuzz and then using the tone control to get the perfect amount of treble. Plus there's plenty of craziness to be had playing with the wave shape and cascading it with other dirt. So there's my mini review.
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Nov 25, 2010 03:53
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These Loving Eyes posted:Is that a copy or did the fixing include swapping the original truss rod cover? I'm GASing for a Rickenbacker but there's no way in hell I'll ever (or at least before graduating from uni and getting a decent paying job) shell out +2000 euros for one. I have never even played the drat thing and would probably have to get it without trying. Other option would be trying to get one used but they'd still cost around +1500 euros and there aren't many of them around in Finland. Yeah, it's a copy. I originally got it off ebay for peanuts under the premise it was a beat up 70's rick copy/unfixable and could probably only be used as a prop/display piece. Picked it up and sure enough it's pretty beaten up and the neck was warped/bent pretty bad. Took it into the shop guy said it was fixable, so it spent 2-3 months in there being fixed up. (The guy who fixed it told me its probably a 70's ibanez copy) Now its playable and pretty awesome  As for how it sounds, I dunno really, kinda bright I suppose, I'm not really an expert on bass and bass tones  . I mainly got it to play around/practice on. I'm more of a guitarist than bassist.
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Nov 25, 2010 09:27
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When I'm reading literature on the internet on learning to play the bass, it suggests using index-middle-ring and occasionally pinky fingers. The book I'm reading (Hal Leonard's Bass Method) purely uses index-middle-pinky - which should I attempt to do? Secondly is holding the neck and fretting with my thumb/fingers in the shape you make when you're imitating a quacking duck with your hand correct? Or should I be twisting my thumb so it's more perpendicular to the neck?
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Nov 25, 2010 11:14
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Ferrous Wheel posted:Also note that Schecter makes some really cool P-bass copies that are much nicer looking than the Stargazer. Is there a reason to buy this over a Highway 1 Fender P? I have one and it's pretty swank but I'm looking for a backup bass, has to be P.
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Nov 25, 2010 11:41
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The Will posted:When I'm reading literature on the internet on learning to play the bass, it suggests using index-middle-ring and occasionally pinky fingers. The book I'm reading (Hal Leonard's Bass Method) purely uses index-middle-pinky - which should I attempt to do? Do you mean the plucking hand or the fretting hand? You should be using all four on your fretting hand. As for plucking, most people use only index and middle. A lot of faster players use index middle and ring, but it is very hard to train that up, since the ring just doesn't seem to have the dexterity of index and ring. This is further compounded by the fact that almost all western music is in even numbered time signatures, so it's pretty awkward to play, for instance, in 4/4 using three fingers. I personally only ever use three fingers for fast gallop-y stuff like Iron Maiden. Fast patterns of three notes are very easy that way. As for plucking with the pinky, never ever heard of it. Doesn't seem like it has the strength, dexterity, or length relative to the others to pluck. I guess everything is possible, though.
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Nov 25, 2010 12:18
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Thanks for that - I meant in the context of fretting. I am getting mixed messages, it seems. Should me thumb be closer to perpendicular or parallel to the neck? Should my thumb pad be resting against the middle of the neck, or should the neck fall into the squishy V at the base of my thumb?
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Nov 25, 2010 12:50
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Ferrous Wheel posted:Other benefits include not needing to worry as much about gigging a high-dollar investment, and not playing what amounts to the musical equivalent of bling. Definitely this. I think the most expensive instrument I could gig with and drag around to rehearsals would be around 1000 €/$. Everything above that makes me worry too much about it getting stolen or knocked over or something. Ferrous Wheel posted:Yeah, I definitely don't think I'd own one myself but I figured it warranted mentioning since it seems to be as close as any major company has ever come to a production Ric copy that didn't result in a lawsuit. Ferrous Wheel posted:Do it. Definitely going to try to find a decent priced tele reissue or something. Too bad the Squier ones don't come in yellow or tobacco burst. That Peavey T-40 looks awesome too. Would love to try that one out. Thanks for the suggestions!
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Nov 25, 2010 14:05
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Walked posted:Flexible budget ($100 - 300, can go more, no big) anyone?
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Nov 25, 2010 16:20
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Walked posted:anyone? Get a crate, I've had my BT15 since I started and never had any problems with it. Has a nice tone, and a headphone input. If you want a combo amp that can jam with loud drummers and has NICE tone, get a Peavey max 115. My friend has one and its awesome. Behringer has low prices, but the general consensus is that they suck and get screwed up easy. Am i wrong goons?  Haven't really put in time jamming on a Behringer amp except for when I'm at guitar center.. so ya.
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Nov 25, 2010 16:47
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Schatten posted:42#'s. What is the price? And how banged up is it? $640 for the CMD 102P. It's 3 years old and he claims it's in great condition and works perfect. He says he's only used it for "bigger" gigs which amount to 5 or 6 times a year and he never uses it for practice. I don't think it's banged up..and he seems to be willing to meet me halfway after I played a little hard to get. I think I might go for it, hopefully its as unused as he claims!
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Nov 25, 2010 18:18
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The Will posted:Thanks for that - I meant in the context of fretting. I am getting mixed messages, it seems. Should me thumb be closer to perpendicular or parallel to the neck? Should my thumb pad be resting against the middle of the neck, or should the neck fall into the squishy V at the base of my thumb? I'm a newbie so take this with a grain of salt, but from my learnin' I've picked up these general rules:
As far as your thumb goes, I don't remember hearing a lot on the subject but I'm going to suggest keeping your thumb on the back - you need to be able to quickly fret any string, and everything I've heard says that you should fret strings with the pad of your finger rather than the tip (unlike guitar), which aids with muting. It's easier to do this when your fingers can come up straight instead of curling around the neck
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Nov 25, 2010 20:59
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I've always heard that the ideal hand position is the thumb at the back of the neck aligned with the middle finger, and while this works well for most positions it makes playing some things very difficult, especially on the lower strings on a 5-string bass. In those situations I move my thumb more to the side to allow a more "diagonal" approach for my fretting hand, and while this may not be the greatest technique it works just fine, and I figure as long as I can reach the notes comfortably it doesn't really matter.
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Nov 26, 2010 03:06
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I position my thumb differently depending on where I am on the neck and which string(s) I'm fretting. The important thing is to avoid unnecessary tension. Edit: Dyna Soar posted:Is there a reason to buy this over a Highway 1 Fender P? I have one and it's pretty swank but I'm looking for a backup bass, has to be P. The bridge humbucker and the price I guess. Actually I linked to two but basically the same applies to both. I think Schecters easily match most Fender offerings in terms of construction and playability so assuming you like the feel of the Schecter it's basically a cheaper, more versatile backup. Ferrous Wheel fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Nov 26, 2010 |
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Nov 26, 2010 03:11
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Demon Seed posted:Get a crate, I've had my BT15 since I started and never had any problems with it. Has a nice tone, and a headphone input. If you want a combo amp that can jam with loud drummers and has NICE tone, get a Peavey max 115. My friend has one and its awesome. Behringer has low prices, but the general consensus is that they suck and get screwed up easy. Am i wrong goons? Ended up grabbing an Acoustic B200 - it was 15% off, and in stock. Probably a bit big, but it has great reviews and I've got 12" concrete walls. Now I just need to pick up a bass. GSR200 is the top runner; but I'm going to go play a bunch this evening at Guitar Center. See if I can double-dip on the 15% discount.
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Nov 26, 2010 17:16
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scuz posted:A local shop has an Ampeg 806 classic and I'm on the fence. They're asking $450 for it, it was made in the US, and it's in pretty decent condition. Does anyone have any experience with these? When I turned it up and fed it more bass than I do with my 2x12 it sounded REALLY good.
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Nov 27, 2010 04:31
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OK guys.. I have really been getting into jazz and bebop music the last few weeks, I've always appreciated it but I'm in love with the upright acoustic bass now. I can't really recall seeing any upright players in this thread and I'm too lazy to read through the whole thing again. Anyways, as soon as I get a job and pay off some bills I would love to buy one. I'm in the middle of nowhere in Ohio, I have NEVER seen one in music stores, or even played one. Did a quick google search and there are a few places I could go to in the state that sell them, what I'm worried about is picking the right one.. What brands are the best? I know I couldn't afford a top of the line one, but what is a great model for a beginner?
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Nov 27, 2010 22:38
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Demon Seed posted:OK guys.. I have really been getting into jazz and bebop music the last few weeks, I've always appreciated it but I'm in love with the upright acoustic bass now. I can't really recall seeing any upright players in this thread and I'm too lazy to read through the whole thing again. I hope this doesn't discourage you, but finding a cheap upright that doesn't suck takes time, effort, and luck. I have two uprights myself, and I paid about $1500 for both of them. The first one basically fell into my lap - if it wasn't held together by crack-repairing resin, it would be worth 5k easily. It plays wonderfully, but it's extremely sensitive to the environment, so it is staying in my parent's house until I get out of school. The other bass I have cost me the same, but it is a very inferior instrument. I can't wait until I can get rid of it and go back to my frankenbass! For a reasonable beginner bass, buying new, DO NOT order from big-box stores like musiciansfriend.com - their basses are complete poo poo for jazz and bebop stuff. Find a luthier or string specialty place to get it from. If you go the used route, you have a better chance of scoring a deal, but at the same time there is always the chance of getting a crappy one that just won't take a good setup, or has a warped bridge, or open seams that won't stay closed. I went used for both of mine, the first through a teacher at my high school and the second through Craigslist. Here's the site for the guy I go to for repairs - his basses for sale reflect the prices that you will find. http://doublebassworkshop.com/basses-for-sale If you can go to a shop similar to this one, the luthier will be able to help you quite a bit - they love to do what they do, and they are very knowledgeable.
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Nov 28, 2010 05:37
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