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aliencowboy posted:You don't understand, Ben. Your camera takes great pictures. subx posted:It's amazing. evil_bunnY fucked around with this message at 11:22 on Dec 3, 2010 |
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Dec 3, 2010 11:16
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poopinmymouth posted:If you have a constant stream of art students through your door, it WILL destroy your will to teach the dumbasses, claiming otherwise is ignorance. Seriously, you just don't understand how soul killing it is to be passionate about teaching, knowledgeable about a subject, be told you are getting a class of students who want your knowledge, and then they do dick all homework, spending 20 min on a recommended 4-8 hour project, or 2+ hours on a 40 hour project. This part is true for any university teaching, I've had very similar experiences with engineering students who think they can just cruise through a degree just like high school.
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Dec 3, 2010 11:19
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I was looking for a russian rangefinder, and I came across a Leica II for 86 quid! Then on closer inspection 
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Dec 3, 2010 11:29
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I think a lot of people are confusing technical instruction with art criticism. I have an extensive amount of experience teaching EMTs and Paramedics. That's easy, if they do something wrong you correct them and explain why it was wrong and what could be done better the next time. If we were discussing a physical skill then I could show the class how to do it until everyone understood. I can't even imagine how difficult it would be to teach an abstract (in comparison) subject like art.
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Dec 3, 2010 11:30
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8th-samurai posted:I think a lot of people are confusing technical instruction with art criticism. I have an extensive amount of experience teaching EMTs and Paramedics. That's easy, if they do something wrong you correct them and explain why it was wrong and what could be done better the next time. If we were discussing a physical skill then I could show the class how to do it until everyone understood. I can't even imagine how difficult it would be to teach an abstract (in comparison) subject like art. But that's not even what we're debating. This isn't a person honestly trying and not getting it, 90% (and that's if you're lucky, probably closer to 98%) just phone it in with no effort or time put into the project whatsoever. Photography is interesting in that even a horribly taken photo is still an accurate representation of perspective, color, value and volume, whereas a lovely charcoal drawing won't necessarily look like anything. It is super obvious if a painting student spent 20 minutes painting their project before class. It's not so obvious with a photo. That said, I am pretty sure a good photography professor can tell when a student has done the barest minimum.
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Dec 3, 2010 11:42
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aliencowboy posted:You don't understand, Ben. Your camera takes great pictures. Yeah, and no one with a "GOOD camera" is going to lend it to this guy. All I do is press the button so it seemed to baffle him that I would charge for ten pictures when he sent me a message about my response.
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Dec 3, 2010 12:33
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poopinmymouth posted:But that's not even what we're debating. This isn't a person honestly trying and not getting it, 90% (and that's if you're lucky, probably closer to 98%) just phone it in with no effort or time put into the project whatsoever. Right, it is easier to learn the technical aspects of photography than drawing. I know this because my charcoal drawings will never progress beyond stick figures. I meant that technical proficiency is only a small part of creating art with a camera. Mostly of the other responses from people wanted to know why the teacher in the video didn't provide any guidance other than "Suck less at this next time".
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Dec 3, 2010 13:08
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poopinmymouth posted:If you have a constant stream of art students through your door, it WILL destroy your will to teach the dumbasses, claiming otherwise is ignorance. Seriously, you just don't understand how soul killing it is to be passionate about teaching, knowledgeable about a subject, be told you are getting a class of students who want your knowledge, and then they do dick all homework, spending 20 min on a recommended 4-8 hour project, or 2+ hours on a 40 hour project. Conversely, I was never keen on how teachers and professors insisted on giving assignments as if students were taking one class only and could dedicate every single free moment of their time to them as opposed to managing a full class load and working part time to cover the bills.
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Dec 3, 2010 16:35
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HPL posted:Conversely, I was never keen on how teachers and professors insisted on giving assignments as if students were taking one class only and could dedicate every single free moment of their time to them as opposed to managing a full class load and working part time to cover the bills. I remember taking an intro to drawing class in my sophomore year just for a generic fine arts credit. She expected us to put 20 hours minimum into our weekly projects, and despite having 6 hours of class a week, we never got to work on our projects in class. Of course this is what she said, but she went really easy on the non-art majors, so it wasn't too bad. I know some professors won't give a gently caress what your major is or why you're there, though, and will just expect the same level of work from anyone in the class.
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Dec 3, 2010 17:05
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Mannequin posted:Don't you think there's a disservice in not being constructive, though? If the work is thoughtless you can't give it a thoughtful critique. I think that art school is no different from any other discipline at any other kind of university - 90% of the people will be coasting through with an average effort doing average work. The problem in photography is that average work takes almost zero effort. Nothing was more frustrating for me in school than having to sit through 3 hours of some professor trying to give equal time to every loving I-shot-my-roommate-at-the-very-last-minute-and-clearly-did-not-give-a-gently caress-about-the-assignment project. Obviously if the work was thoughtfully made but is flawed in some way then that is what class time should be devoted to - actual discussion and critique. Art school is not show and tell though, if you show up with some bullshit your classmates who do actually care and are drowning in student debt to be there shouldn't have to do more than go "try sucking less, next". I know I've said this before but when I was in school it was really, really obvious which students were actually going to go on and work in the industry in some capacity. The majority of kids were just showing up and wasting everyone's time (and I guess their parents money), doing the minimum. People who teach must be a lot more patient than me because I couldn't do it. quote:I think a lot of people are confusing technical instruction with art criticism. I have an extensive amount of experience teaching EMTs and Paramedics. That's easy, if they do something wrong you correct them and explain why it was wrong and what could be done better the next time. If we were discussing a physical skill then I could show the class how to do it until everyone understood. I can't even imagine how difficult it would be to teach an abstract (in comparison) subject like art. After the 101-102 level classes you don't really talk about the technical stuff very much at all, it's just assumed that whatever you did was intentional so you get down to talking about what the work is really about and what it communicates. Which is why there is nothing to really say to people who put no thought into their work, no technical change would magically make it interesting and you can't tell someone who doesn't want to communicate anything in their work what they should be communicating. quote:Conversely, I was never keen on how teachers and professors insisted on giving assignments as if students were taking one class only and could dedicate every single free moment of their time to them as opposed to managing a full class load and working part time to cover the bills. Why? This is how clients treat you in the real world. The extreme work load they give you at art schools is one of the big reasons to me to go - it forces you to build the habits of just getting up every day and spending your time working. If you can't do it with deadlines and professors breathing down your neck, you will never be able to do it on your own. edit: poop - speaking of good professors - did you ever take Nolan at our alma mater? I have a print of hers hanging in my office and every time I look at it I hear her Wisconsin accent telling me to shut the gently caress up and go make something. brad industry fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Dec 3, 2010 |
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Dec 3, 2010 21:22
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This is why I'm sad the Art thread died. Right now it's hard for me to say "yes I have something to communicate in my photos". I've taken a ton of stuff over the past year, and working hard on listening to the critiques here and elsewhere, but still I feel like I've gone backwards in many ways. I don't know if having a teacher would help me figure any of that out.
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Dec 3, 2010 22:26
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brad industry posted:poop - speaking of good professors - did you ever take Nolan at our alma mater? I have a print of hers hanging in my office and every time I look at it I hear her Wisconsin accent telling me to shut the gently caress up and go make something. I didn't, because I did my foundation courses at VCU, only took 3D classes at SCAD. I do remember the kick-rear end pastel portrait asian professor who told my one friend, "no no, this is all wrong, you do it right next time, or I kill you." In a totally deadpan tone and super strong asian accent.
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Dec 3, 2010 23:17
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I had a guy with a thick accent say to me "I kill you two times!" when I did something wrong. Also, I think that the prof. there would probably said something more constructive to someone worth the effort. Maybe the clip would have been better if it had shown someone worth giving crit to getting it.
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Dec 3, 2010 23:31
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I had a sociology professor who asked the class, "What should I do? Should I sodomize him?" after he saw me using my phone in class. This is the same professor who, trying to get class responses, said "[if you speak up], I'll let you kiss Wally!" (Wally was his service dog; he had a seizure disorder). Then, after still no one answered, he said "I'll let you go rear end-to-mouth with Wally! No, I'm kidding. You never go rear end-to-mouth." (I think he thought going "rear end-to-mouth" meant kissing/licking someone's rear end, not the other definition.) Oh, and you should be reading all of these quotes in an Australian accent.
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Dec 4, 2010 00:20
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poopinmymouth posted:I didn't, because I did my foundation courses at VCU, only took 3D classes at SCAD. I do remember the kick-rear end pastel portrait asian professor who told my one friend, "no no, this is all wrong, you do it right next time, or I kill you." In a totally deadpan tone and super strong asian accent. VCU in Richmond?
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Dec 4, 2010 00:32
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HPL posted:Conversely, I was never keen on how teachers and professors insisted on giving assignments as if students were taking one class only and could dedicate every single free moment of their time to them as opposed to managing a full class load and working part time to cover the bills. My Torts professor, first year of law school had a very easy answer to this same dilemma (typically, 200+ pages to read per day, and you're advised to read each assignment more than once): "Sleep faster."
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Dec 4, 2010 01:21
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Twenties Superstar posted:In math class a cross photoshopped on the white house would pass because the assignment is images that depict culture and an image of the white house with a cross certainly depicts a view of American culture. For the two to be comparable you'd have to say the challenge was to depict culture in a meaningful way, otherwise there would be no way for the two to arrive at the same conclusion. But I wasn't comparing art to math, I was comparing the professor's teaching methods to teaching methods you would find in a math class. A good math teacher will explain why a student solved a problem incorrectly, showing examples of what he could have done differently to get it right. I think the same could have been done with the professor in the video. It's no good if you just say "you did it wrong" or "it sucks" without providing substantial backing to your statement if you have any hope of the student actually learning anything. In that sense, teaching art is (or should be) like teaching math. I am essentially responding to the professor's quick one-liners - "this is boring" or "this sucks", etc. I think he did an okay job getting his point across about why the restaurant shots were a failure, but overall he did a crappy job explaining himself. brad industry posted:If the work is thoughtless you can't give it a thoughtful critique. You can say it's thoughtless and that's a thoughtful critique, or at least the beginning of one. You might follow it up by saying "here's something that's not thoughtless" and show them side by side. You don't need to spend a lot of time on it, as long as the point is made. Mannequin fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Dec 4, 2010 |
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Dec 4, 2010 04:29
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Mannequin posted:For the two to be comparable you'd have to say the challenge was to depict culture in a meaningful way, otherwise there would be no way for the two to arrive at the same conclusion. The method is NECESSARILY different because in art there is nothing to solve incorrectly!! When someone hands in an improperly solved question in math you can tell them exactly how to make it right and show them where they went wrong. In art class when you hand in an assignment and the idea is bad it's not because you took a wrong turn with your figures. The prof can't just come in and straighten out your error because the error is endemic in the way you think and your dedication to the craft not simply in poor execution. If the student is someone who honestly thinks that a cross on the white house is a valuable piece of art and aren't just lazy then there is probably nothing a prof can do for them beyond saying "this is obvious and stupid".
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Dec 4, 2010 06:45
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Twenties Superstar posted:The method is NECESSARILY different because in art there is nothing to solve incorrectly!! Yes, there can be! Twenties Superstar posted:When someone hands in an improperly solved question in math you can tell them exactly how to make it right and show them where they went wrong. In art class when you hand in an assignment and the idea is bad it's not because you took a wrong turn with your figures. The two aren't exactly equatable so in art we're not talking about numbers. But we can take wrong turns in art. If a photo I take is boring because the concept is unoriginal, (like you see with the Model Mayhem photographers), this is a problem that can potentially be "solved". I can change my behavior. I can learn that I was stuck trying to be technically proficient instead of focusing on the concept. I can see what other portrait photographers have done that made their photos interesting. In time I can change and create better work, so in this sense it is like finding a solution to a problem. Twenties Superstar posted:The prof can't just come in and straighten out your error because the error is endemic in the way you think As I said before, people who have no hope of achieving any form of success because they lack the talent/the vision/whatever, should probably be told sooner than later to get out. But someone who is eager to learn might actually learn something eventually with the right guidance. Twenties Superstar posted:If the student is someone who honestly thinks that a cross on the white house is a valuable piece of art and aren't just lazy then there is probably nothing a prof can do for them beyond saying "this is obvious and stupid". If someone is interested in improving they would benefit from knowing why it's obvious and stupid.
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Dec 4, 2010 08:05
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Mannequin posted:Too much guidance from the teacher would only lead a student to making images that the teacher liked or found interesting. I don't think you can give someone specific directions otherwise you might as well just shoot the photo for them next time. "This is boring, suck less next time" is a perfectly valid and useful critique. Anyone with any sort of motivation will try harder to make an interesting piece of work next time. If you need to know why someone didn't like your work you aren't really improving yourself at all.
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Dec 4, 2010 12:40
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8th-samurai posted:Too much guidance from the teacher would only lead a student to making images that the teacher liked or found interesting. Isn't that all you're going to find in an art class anyway? If a professor doesn't like a shot or find it interesting then why would he give it positive feedback? Which means that you're going to end up making photos to suit his tastes whether he says "great work" or gives you a lengthy, detailed explanation of why he thinks it's good. Really, what you said highlights the problem with formally studying art. Art is so highly subjective as it is, and the stuff one professor loves another professor might think is crap, and there are so many ways to approach art. You can judge art on its own terms, on your terms, on the average viewer's terms, on the well-studied viewer's terms, etc. There's also the problem that art that is considered quality by other artists tends to be less commercially viable than "bad" art that's marketed to the masses. It's especially strange with photography, where a photo that even an amateur photographer could point out a multitude of flaws in, might be considered amazing by someone who has no idea about the technical aspects and no interest in learning them. Do you tune your work to satisfy your own artistic needs, or do you tune it please the people who will pay you money for it? Can you find a happy medium? I think woot fatigue has found a way to make very technically good photos that even someone who knows fuckall about photos will think are awesome and his style also happens to be very distinct and difficult to emulate. But there are a lot of people who take really technically good photos that the layman isn't going to be able to distinguish from something they could get from Sears portrait studio.
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Dec 4, 2010 18:43
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Mannequin posted:If a photo I take is boring because the concept is unoriginal, (like you see with the Model Mayhem photographers), this is a problem that can potentially be "solved". I can change my behavior. All we're seeing is that one critique, not the weeks of discussion or whatever leading up to it. A critique is usually the last time you discuss the idea and project with your class (not the first), so in all likelihood these people were given plenty of guidance, suggestions, and feedback and then ignored it so they could continue on and make their dumb idea because they are either lazy or that terrible. brad industry fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Dec 4, 2010 |
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Dec 4, 2010 19:06
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I'm not a professional, not even a college photogrpahy student, just a rank amateur so I've never had anyone really critique anything I've shot. These are videos from Sports Shooters college contest. All the entrants are college sports/journalism students and all the judges are Sports Illustrated employees. Is this the normal reaction when you guys give your portfolio to someone? Just: "fine, yeah ok, like the color, could've been closer.." etc? That's the winners portfolio. Some of the losers are cut into a little deeper though. http://www.sportsshooter.com/special_feature/student_contest-06/index.html
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Dec 5, 2010 02:23
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rockamiclikeavandal posted:Is this the normal reaction when you guys give your portfolio to someone? Just: "fine, yeah ok, like the color, could've been closer.." etc? That's the winners portfolio. Some of the losers are cut into a little deeper though. These videos also do a great job of showing how your portfolio is only as good as your weakest image. Seeing a couple great images followed by one that is worthless completely ruins the images that came before it.
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Dec 5, 2010 03:55
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rockamiclikeavandal posted:I'm not a professional, not even a college photogrpahy student, just a rank amateur so I've never had anyone really critique anything I've shot. These are really fascinating. Thanks for posting them. Anyone know of any other places with real time audio critiques of portfolios? It's really insightful.
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Dec 5, 2010 04:28
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mr. mephistopheles posted:These are really fascinating. Thanks for posting them. cpoy.org has a bunch. its kind of depressing to see what I think are really great photos, just get tore down. theres no hope for my stuff.
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Dec 5, 2010 04:44
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^  CPOY records the later stages of their judging if you wanna check 'em out: http://www.cpoy.org/index.php?s=Podcast Personally I find any sort of photo judging aggravating after a while, but it can be interesting in bits and pieces.
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Dec 5, 2010 04:49
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Thanks for those, I like Zack Arias critiques as well. It's fairly light hearted and he always tries to not critique the photographer/photo in a mean way, so most of the critiques are about how a photo could be better. http://www.zarias.com/category/critique/page/2/
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Dec 5, 2010 04:55
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http://www.sportsshooter.com/special_feature/student_contest-06/souffle.html One of the comments on Anthony Souffle's portfolio was, "Yeah, it looks like, ya know, it came out of professional camera". 
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Dec 5, 2010 05:59
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spf3million posted:http://www.sportsshooter.com/special_feature/student_contest-06/souffle.html I'm watching them all, and I just finished that one, I'd like to think what he meant was: "Yeah, it looks like, ya know, it came out of a professional's camera"
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Dec 5, 2010 06:02
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Shmoogy posted:Thanks for those, I like Zack Arias critiques as well. It's fairly light hearted and he always tries to not critique the photographer/photo in a mean way, so most of the critiques are about how a photo could be better. I really enjoy these, thanks for linking them.
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Dec 5, 2010 08:35
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I sort of decided to finally hop on that whole "blog" bandwagon thing that left a couple years ago, but I figure you guys might be interested... also if you have any ideas about things you might like to hear about, let me know  Link
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Dec 5, 2010 10:11
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nonanone posted:I sort of decided to finally hop on that whole "blog" bandwagon thing that left a couple years ago, but I figure you guys might be interested... also if you have any ideas about things you might like to hear about, let me know Awesome! You're one of my favorite photographers around here so it'll be nice to read what you have to say as well as look at your pictures.
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Dec 5, 2010 15:28
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AIIAZNSK8ER posted:VCU in Richmond? Yep.
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Dec 5, 2010 15:51
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poopinmymouth posted:Yep. How did you like it? Friend of mine is thinking of going for a masters in photography there.
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Dec 5, 2010 16:02
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nonanone posted:I sort of decided to finally hop on that whole "blog" bandwagon thing that left a couple years ago, but I figure you guys might be interested... also if you have any ideas about things you might like to hear about, let me know Who do you want to target with your blog? If it's other photogs, then I would like to know more about the fashion "world".
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Dec 5, 2010 16:42
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I'm hoping to target whoever is interested in specifically what I'm doing, rather than a larger more general audience, since there's already so many photo blogs out there. I wrote a little about shooting fashion shows here and people seemed to really like it, too bad it's such a minefield to write about politically but I'll definitely try to do more.
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Dec 5, 2010 17:36
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nonanone posted:I'm hoping to target whoever is interested in specifically what I'm doing, rather than a larger more general audience, since there's already so many photo blogs out there. I wrote a little about shooting fashion shows here and people seemed to really like it, too bad it's such a minefield to write about politically redo the fashion thread btw! I've got a lot more things to post in it. I think it dropped off into the archives 
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Dec 5, 2010 17:47
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nonanone posted:I wrote a little about shooting fashion shows here and people seemed to really like it, too bad it's such a minefield to write about politically Man, if you're fussed about a show starting 20-30 minutes late, you would absolutely hate shooting concerts.
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Dec 5, 2010 18:52
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Does anyone have the link for the guy demonstrating pictures from a broken lens? I'm googling all sorts of poo poo and I can't find it!
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