|
It could related to the physical size of the bulb maybe? Some older CFLs took up WAY more space than their incandescent equivalents. Some fixtures made before CFLs were commonplace just didn't have enough space around the socket to fit a CFL. Hell, I bought a fancypants $250 ceiling fan only 7 months ago and it didn't have enough room under the glass to fit most CFLs I found. I finally found some Sylvania "ultra-compact" ones that fit under the glass... after I bent around on the socket mounting brackets. Why the hell are more and more ceiling fans going towards candelabra sockets anyway?
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2010 21:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 11:04 |
|
|
kid sinister posted:It could related to the physical size of the bulb maybe? Some older CFLs took up WAY more space than their incandescent equivalents. Some fixtures made before CFLs were commonplace just didn't have enough space around the socket to fit a CFL. Hell, I bought a fancypants $250 ceiling fan only 7 months ago and it didn't have enough room under the glass to fit most CFLs I found. I finally found some Sylvania "ultra-compact" ones that fit under the glass... after I bent around on the socket mounting brackets. The switch to candelabra bases is due to the Energy Policy Act (EPACT), passed in 2005, mandating that all ceiling fans be reversible, have separate fan and light controls, and move away from medium base to candelabra or intermediate base bulbs. The act also limits fans made after January 1st, 2009 to no more than 190 watts of light total. <edit>Correction, actually the EPACT doesn't prohibit fans from using medium bases, it just mandated that all fans using medium bases must ship them with CFLs. The alternative was to switch to candelabra bases, due to a provision which allowed them to ship candelabra base incandescent bulbs (since candelabra CFLs weren't available yet when the act was passed). Most manufacturers chose to go the cheaper route, switching bases and including cheap incandescents. Mthrboard fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Dec 11, 2010 |
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2010 21:51
|
|
|
kid sinister posted:Why the hell are more and more ceiling fans going towards candelabra sockets anyway? A lot of people retrofitting ceiling fans where there was only a light fixture only have one switched run up to the ceiling, so they use one of those $40 remotes that mount above the fan as a solution. Dimmer or not, those things can't fire a normal CFL, so it's not a big priority? That was my recent situation, at least.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2010 21:58
|
|
|
eddiewalker posted:A lot of people retrofitting ceiling fans where there was only a light fixture only have one switched run up to the ceiling, so they use one of those $40 remotes that mount above the fan as a solution. Dimmer or not, those things can't fire a normal CFL, so it's not a big priority?
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2010 22:56
|
|
|
grover posted:Depends how they do the dimmer; if energy efficiency is the goal, these companies should be mandated to put in dimmers that work with CFLs. I tried to find one that would work, but couldn't. I pulled out the manuals for all 5 or so models HD/Lowes sell, and there was always a big warning against CFLs. I took home the fanciest one and tried a pair of CFLs anyway, but the bulbs wouldn't turn completely off. They just buzzed and flicked, looking like they had a pilot light inside.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2010 23:18
|
|
|
eddiewalker posted:A lot of people retrofitting ceiling fans where there was only a light fixture only have one switched run up to the ceiling, so they use one of those $40 remotes that mount above the fan as a solution. Dimmer or not, those things can't fire a normal CFL, so it's not a big priority? I put a fan in where there was only a light prior, and only one switched circuit. I just tied the fan and light hots to the hot on the circuit and use the pull-chains to select between, the switch on the wall to turn it all on or off. What is wrong with this that people are going out and buying remotes for the light circuit? Why not just buy a fan that comes with a remote or get up and pull a chain?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2010 05:30
|
|
|
Wandering Idiot posted:I put a fan in where there was only a light prior, and only one switched circuit. I just tied the fan and light hots to the hot on the circuit and use the pull-chains to select between, the switch on the wall to turn it all on or off. What is wrong with this that people are going out and buying remotes for the light circuit? Why not just buy a fan that comes with a remote or get up and pull a chain? 
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2010 05:36
|
|
|
Well yeah, figured that would be the case. But in that situation, why not get a fan with a remote included? E: Maybe I read the post wrong. It came across to me as, buy a fan with light without a remote included, only to buy the components to make it remote controlled after the fact so you have to go loving with the fan and light circuitry internally. Ah, gotcha. Wandering Idiot fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Dec 12, 2010 |
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2010 05:39
|
|
|
Wandering Idiot posted:Well yeah, figured that would be the case. But in that situation, why not get a fan with a remote included? Very few fans come with a remote, and it's cheaper to just use a kit. The remote receivers are shaped to fit inside the fan's mounting bracket. Two wires in, three wires out.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2010 05:51
|
|
|
For those of you trying to use CFLs where CFLs are "allowed", try using one incandescent with the other bulbs CFLs and see if that works. I have a bunch of ZWave switches in my house that require something like 40W of load (I don't know that I'm using that term correctly) to work correctly and they don't mention it anywhere in the literature. 3 CFLS aren't enough of a load for the switch to work correctly so I'd get that faint flickering described earlier. Popped a 60W incandescent in there and everything works great.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2010 16:02
|
|
|
Here's a question I wondered: how well do the CFL-approved dimmers work with incandescents?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2010 19:55
|
|
|
grover posted:By the letter of the law, you can only do this if no one piece of equipment exceeds 50% of the circuit rating. This is to prevent damage to the cable if you use two pieces simultaneously. I venture to guess your dryer already exceeds 50% of 30A; otherwise, they would have used a 20A breaker. That seems really strange, since how would you damage a line that was protected by a circuit breaker/fuse? The entire reason for asking is my breaker panel was in an awesome place to route wires to in my basement up until I drywalled everything up. Now to install a new branch would require cutting into the wall.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2010 22:13
|
|
|
dietcokefiend posted:That seems really strange, since how would you damage a line that was protected by a circuit breaker/fuse?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2010 22:19
|
|
|
grover posted:Breakers can fail. Breakers and fuses are designed to pop just before wires they protect burst into flames. Any time there's a condition that causes a breaker to trip, there's a chance of fire. 99% of the time, the breaker works properly and protects the circuit, but codes like this one exist to limit the risk of a condition that will cause dangerous overloads. Is there any electrical device that would allow this sort of setup? Something like a 30A version of a big A/B switch where only one path can be selected at a time?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2010 23:14
|
|
|
dietcokefiend posted:Is there any electrical device that would allow this sort of setup? Something like a 30A version of a big A/B switch where only one path can be selected at a time?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2010 23:20
|
|
|
grover posted:Actually, yeah, I think that would be fine. Well do they exist? 
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2010 01:10
|
|
|
dietcokefiend posted:Well do they exist?
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2010 01:23
|
|
|
grover posted:30A DPDT switch? Yeah, they exist. You'd probably have to special order one from the internet, though; I doubt they carry them at Home Depot. Interesting, so basically a beefed up light switch? Would I need two of those (one for each 120v line?)
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2010 02:55
|
|
|
dietcokefiend posted:Interesting, so basically a beefed up light switch? Would I need two of those (one for each 120v line?) The "right" way to do it would be to pull a new circuit to your panel, though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2010 03:02
|
|
|
dietcokefiend posted:Interesting, so basically a beefed up light switch? Would I need two of those (one for each 120v line?) http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/SWS-13/1.html 
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2010 07:35
|
|
|
Rated 0.5A / 200VDC So perhaps get like 60 of these things lined up along the wall all connected by a master bar and flip em like I am bringing Frankenstein back to life? Evil laugh included 
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2010 07:48
|
|
|
I'm planning on putting some drywall in my garage and have run into a few possible electrical issues: 1) Here is my breaker panel:  Click here for the full 1536x2048 image. It looks like the main service line comes down, goes through a stud to the meter outside the house, back through the same stud, and then up into the panel. I wasn't planning on putting drywall above or below the panel to keep things accessible so should I keep the meter section open as well so I don't have to worry about somehow armoring that area to keep nails away from the extra-bigass power cable? 2) The bright white cable coming out of the top is a new circuit I just put in for my garage door opener so I don't have to plug it in with an extension cord like a hillbilly anymore (ever had a cord wrap itself around your axle while running late for work?). If the outlet is just shy of 8 feet off the ground, do I have to put in a GFCI and/or make it a single outlet as opposed to the usual duplex? 3) Am I going to have to put in more outlets to make sure I have one every 12 feet or is it somehow grandfathered in? I'm never going to do the ceiling due to HVAC ducts if that keeps it from being "finished". Does it even matter if it is/isn't finished? Even I can tell that at least some work was done by an unlicensed rear end in a top hat, which brings me to: 4) There is a line coming out of the bottom of the circuit panel that just sort of dangles its way into the next room (its also one of a few lines run into the panel without a clamp or grommet and with a knot tied in it to keep from pulling back out. I put some clamps on those while I was in there). Is there anything I should keep in mind while re-running it through studs or is it pretty much drilling holes and hammering some metal plates on to keep nails out?
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2010 10:28
|
|
|
Cat Hatter posted:I'm planning on putting some drywall in my garage and have run into a few possible electrical issues: Dedicated garage door openers do not have to be GFCI. Putting up drywall doesn't change anything in your garage with respect to outlets, but I would install them anyhow while the walls are open. They must be GFCI, btw, and it's OK to put them MUCH closer than 12' because they're like 40 cents apiece and there's never a handy outlet when you need it. Those metal plates are only required if the cable is within 1.5" of the face of the stud. Rationale is that drywall screws/nails won't penetrate the cable if the cable is deep enough, otherwise, you need to protect it. grover fucked around with this message at 11:45 on Dec 13, 2010 |
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2010 11:42
|
|
|
I like the metal plates because they're cheap and electricity scares me. If I'd seen that arc fault video I probably wouldn't have opened the panel to put the new breaker in there. Its different to actually see it happen. On the subject of GFCIs, the one in my house is on the breaker itself. I've never seen them not on the outlet. Are there any advantages/disadvantages other than having to run to the panel if it trips?
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2010 11:53
|
|
|
Cat Hatter posted:On the subject of GFCIs, the one in my house is on the breaker itself. I've never seen them not on the outlet. Are there any advantages/disadvantages other than having to run to the panel if it trips? You *should* have two 20A GFCI on outlets in your kitchen, one feeding your bathrooms, and at least one feeding your garage, laundry room and any exterior outlets.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2010 11:55
|
|
|
^^^^^and unfinished basementsCat Hatter posted:On the subject of GFCIs, the one in my house is on the breaker itself. I've never seen them not on the outlet. Are there any advantages/disadvantages other than having to run to the panel if it trips? The GFCI breakers are useful for retrofits for legally upgrading to 3 prong receptacles on circuits using 14 or 12/2 without ground. With the GFCI receptacles, you'll have to run around to every outlet on that circuit and test them one by one to find the first in the circuit, then daisy chain the rest from it. With the GFCI breakers, you know that the circuit begins at the box, so that's a quicker swap out. The breakers are also useful for retrofits where the boxes in the wall are too shallow to cram in a GFCI receptacle. Hey grover, hypothetical situation: if you do perform a breaker swap out like to a GFCI breaker nowadays, wouldn't that conflict with the requirements for AFCI breakers in living spaces? Which would one use? Does either AFCI or GFCI offer the same protection as the other? kid sinister fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Dec 13, 2010 |
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2010 16:32
|
|
|
My one GFCI runs the outlets in both bathrooms, the exterior outlets, and the two outlets they bothered to put in the garage (and one was clearly an addition). You'd think a GFCI cost $100 in 1982 from the way they snaked that circuit everywhere. No extra protection to the kitchen outlets. I don't know if they needed them in '82 but I might add them once I finish fiddling with the garage.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2010 21:48
|
|
|
kid sinister posted:Hey grover, hypothetical situation: if you do perform a breaker swap out like to a GFCI breaker nowadays, wouldn't that conflict with the requirements for AFCI breakers in living spaces? Which would one use? Does either AFCI or GFCI offer the same protection as the other? For the most part, the requirements are mutually exclusive; AFCI are only required in places GFCI aren't already required. You could run into issues if you serve, say, a bedroom and a garage from the same circuit and want to protect both at the breaker. Most people will use an AFCI breaker with a GFCI outlet in this hypothetical situation. Cat Hatter posted:My one GFCI runs the outlets in both bathrooms, the exterior outlets, and the two outlets they bothered to put in the garage (and one was clearly an addition). You'd think a GFCI cost $100 in 1982 from the way they snaked that circuit everywhere. No extra protection to the kitchen outlets. I don't know if they needed them in '82 but I might add them once I finish fiddling with the garage. GFCI are cheap enough now, I put one on every string in my house, just to be safe. I'd recommend at least retrofitting GFCI in your kitchen. grover fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Dec 14, 2010 |
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2010 00:35
|
|
|
Easy-ish question. I have outlets A and B in this room and would like to add C. I can access the crawl space under the floor and have discovered that this is how they are cabled currently. Can I cut the line in the middle, pull a new run to B and a run to C and splice the whole mess in the middle or is there something else that would be better?
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2010 02:03
|
|
|
Daddyo posted:Easy-ish question. I have outlets A and B in this room and would like to add C. I can access the crawl space under the floor and have discovered that this is how they are cabled currently. Can I cut the line in the middle, pull a new run to B and a run to C and splice the whole mess in the middle or is there something else that would be better? Why not just run from B to C or A to C? If you "splice the whole mess in the middle" make sure you do it in a junction box with cable clamps.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2010 03:01
|
|
|
Daddyo posted:Easy-ish question. I have outlets A and B in this room and would like to add C. I can access the crawl space under the floor and have discovered that this is how they are cabled currently. Can I cut the line in the middle, pull a new run to B and a run to C and splice the whole mess in the middle or is there something else that would be better? psycho is right, B to C or A to C would be the regular way to do it. Still, a junction in the middle of a cable run can be done. The only problem is that just cutting the cable in the middle of one box typically doesn't leave enough slack to twist the existing wires to each other again. Here, I've made this setup before for mid-cable run junctions before, out of a junction box, a handy box and a box coupling. It will give you more slack on the existing cable ends.  Click here for the full 1139x633 image. You probably could pull that off inside one box if you're determined, but I personally like lots of slack to work with. Don't forget the clamps! kid sinister fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Dec 14, 2010 |
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2010 17:15
|
|
|
I know this will work, I was hoping someone more knowledgeable about the NEC might be able to tell me if this is up to code or not though. Our attic has the typical single bulb porcelain lampholder, controlled by a switch next to the attic entrance. Right now it has a largish CFL in it ("300 watt replacement"), but it's nowhere near enough light to work on the furnace (you can barely see enough to change the air filter since the furnace is a good 10+ feet away from the lamp). I'd like to add a 2 tube T8 fixture. Would NEC allow me to branch off from the existing junction box, and would I have to upgrade anything else while I'm up there to remain code compliant? Existing wiring is 14/2 romex in a plastic box with a ground wire available, and an electrician left a bunch of 14/2 when we had lights added in the kitchen years ago. Also looking to replace the single porcelain fixture in the garage with a 4 tube T8 fixture as well, but since that'd be a replacement instead of an addition I don't think I'd run into any code issues there. What code issues will I run into, if any? And can T8 ballasts handle extreme heat? We break 110F in the summer from time to time, and the attic gets a bit hotter than that. The (attic) light wouldn't get much use though, probably once or twice a month for several minuets at a time. Texas, homeowner, house built in 1994 if it matters. randomidiot fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Dec 17, 2010 |
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2010 17:49
|
|
|
some texas redneck posted:I know this will work, I was hoping someone more knowledgeable about the NEC might be able to tell me if this is up to code or not though. I can't find a code to quote you, but I'm pretty sure open porcelain fixtures aren't supposed to be used in attics used for storage; you should be using fixtures with protective globes of some sort. If you add anything, you probably need a permit for it, btw. grover fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Dec 17, 2010 |
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2010 20:21
|
|
|
So I've got a wiring problem that has me stumped. House is about 50 years old, and we wanted to replace the kitchen and dining room light fixtures. No problem, I figured. I pulled out the kitchen fixture, and found... I don't know. It seems to be a junction box with four NM cables coming in. Two are three wire 120v, and two are four wire 240v. That doesn't seem too crazy, but the way they were wired up did. Three of the four whites were wired together, along with the white on the fixture. Two of the blacks were wired to the black on the fixture. The free white was marked with black tape (I assume this was to mark it as hot), and wired in with the other two blacks and (I think) one of the reds. The other red was just sitting all by itself, connected to nothing. And everything was connected with electrical tape. I should've taken a picture before I took everything apart, but I thought I knew what I was doing. Famous last words, right? Here's how I'm sitting now:  Click here for the full 478x640 image. I wired together the blacks of the 240v, the reds of the 240v, and the whites of the 240v. I wired the black and white of the new fixture to the black and white of one of the NM cables. The other black and the white marked as hot are currently floating around doing nothing, because I'm not sure what to do. As it is, the fixture itself works just fine. The light in the dining room, however, does not. No matter how I try and connect the black and the white marked as hot, it either results in the circuit blowing, the new kitchen fixture stuck on, or as is currently the case, the new kitchen fixture working fine, but the dining room light not working. I know that the black and the white marked as hot are continuing the circuit from the kitchen to the dining room, but I don't know how to wire them in without blowing something. And the 240v cables are really screwing me up. Does any of that even make sense? Help me, goons! I no longer feel safe.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2010 01:18
|
|
|
Honestly I'd start mapping your wires. I've had to do this several times in my folks' house that was wired, rewired, and wired again at various levels of compliance and sanity. Use extension cords, spare romex, or whatever you have lying around with a multimeter or continuity tester and label every one of those. It sucks, but it beats the hell out of trial and error.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2010 02:58
|
|
|
240 volts? Are you quite sure? This sounds a lot like a pretty typical three-way switch setup.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2010 03:52
|
|
|
Also that, running 240 to a ceiling fixture seems incredibly odd. I would bet the red wires are the runners for three-ways.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2010 04:20
|
|
|
That's not 240V. Red and black are both 120v hots. Hard to say whether which (or both) are switched or if they're legs on a 3-way traveler circuit without more info. The one with black and white marked black is possibly a switch loop.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2010 04:27
|
|
|
Hooray! Turns out it was a switch loop, as grover suggested. I'd never heard of a switch loop, but after some research and a little bit of trial and error, everything is working again as it should be. Thanks, guys! Click here for the full 640x478 image. And I don't have that lone red wire hanging out by itself anymore. Should I have that red wire hanging out by itself? That just seemed like a bad situation. But I'm obviously not an electrician. Edit: Just discovered another dangling red wire at the dining room fixture. What the hell? Barnabas fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Dec 18, 2010 |
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2010 17:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 11:04 |
|
|
insta posted:Hmm, well, since there's apparently not a rule against it ... Technically, that's two code violations. One is not allowed to tape up wire that's smaller than #6, and a neutral is not allowed to be phased to hot. Someone some day might pick up that wire elsewhere and go "wow, that's white, it's a neutral! Let me splice in because it's a neutral...."
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2010 18:32
|
|
