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Orange Devil posted:As a non-American, this war on Christmas stuff is profoundly confusing. It comes up every year, and I've been hearing about it for a few years now, but I only ever hear one side, the Christian "we are such a repressed minority look at what those liberal PC-types are trying to do to our great traditions, soon we'll all be thrown to the lions" kind of stuff. Basically, all I ever read, hear or see is a lot of complaining about the war on Christmas. I never read or saw any of the actual war on Christmas itself. So was this a thing at some point and it has blown over but the crazies won't let go, or is it a thing that's still there but at a pretty low level and completely overshadowed by the crazies or was it never a thing at all and it just exists in the heads of the crazies? The "War on Christmas" is basically this: Anytime people want to recognize that there are several holidays around this time of year (instead of only recognizing and celebrating "CHRISTmas" exclusively), some groups get bent out of shape and say that "secular society" is colluding to suppress the holiday as an attack on christianity. Its stupid, because almost all the things they point to are things like "A company advises its employees to wish 'Happy Holidays' instead of 'Merry Christmas' because you never know what the customer celebrates" or "somebody putting up a display for a different religion's holiday next to a Christmas display." This persecution complex filters down to the masses and manifests itself in really passive agressive ways, like a waiter wishing a customer "Happy Holidays" (because he has no idea what the customer celebrates), which makes the customer all huffy (because this guy is obviously attacking my precious Christmas), so the customer completely forgets that Christ was about love and reaching out to others, so the customer stiffs the waiter on the tip and leaves a snotty note.
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Dec 17, 2010 00:24
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Pornographic Memory posted:Not an email, but a similar level of crazy, a guy at my workplace coming in to fix a machine tried to argue that universal health care was bad. Why? Big Macs cost two dollars more in New York City than here. Big Macs are a reliable index of the cost of living. Where else do Big Macs cost two dollars more? Canada. Therefore UHC drives the cost of living up too high. He's gonna need that health care after all those cheap big macs.
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Dec 17, 2010 00:32
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Orange Devil posted:Basically, all I ever read, hear or see is a lot of complaining about the war on Christmas. I never read or saw any of the actual war on Christmas itself. The "war on Christmas" is a very studiously managed ABSENCE of religious connotations, as far as I can tell mainly on the part of large corporations. By definition you'll never "see an absence".
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Dec 17, 2010 01:06
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Manifest Dynasty posted:The "War on Christmas" is basically this: Anytime people want to recognize that there are several holidays around this time of year (instead of only recognizing and celebrating "CHRISTmas" exclusively), some groups get bent out of shape and say that "secular society" is colluding to suppress the holiday as an attack on christianity. Its stupid, because almost all the things they point to are things like "A company advises its employees to wish 'Happy Holidays' instead of 'Merry Christmas' because you never know what the customer celebrates" or "somebody putting up a display for a different religion's holiday next to a Christmas display." The best part is when they start complaining about how stores hate Jesus because the crap they sell says "Happy Holidays" and not "Merry Christmas". One of these days I'm going to find an actual protest along those lines (one with signs and everything), and show up with a sign reading "Matthew 6:24". Technogeek fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Dec 17, 2010 |
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Dec 17, 2010 01:06
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Manifest Dynasty posted:Anytime people want to recognize that there are several holidays around this time of year (instead of only recognizing and celebrating "CHRISTmas" exclusively), some groups get bent out of shape and say that "secular society" is colluding to suppress the holiday as an attack on christianity. "Happy Holidays" doesn't recognize multiple religious holidays: it specifically recognizes none. (I'm ignoring the pedant's note about the etymology of "holidays"). My mother teaches at a Catholic school and it's the number one magnet for Muslims in the area. Why? Because they feel that some kind of religious framework, even of a different faith, is more important than picking the particular one. Something I loved about living in Europe was how unashamedly parochial the people were about their traditions, both religious and non-religious. It was generally seen as better to flaunt your own particular customs than to be neutral so as not to seem different from others or offensive to them. The French insistence on secularization (e.g. banning headscarves) is, perversely as it seems, a case of this: it was flaunting its own particular custom of secularization even if it meant offending people. Now that I live in Seattle, I only really see people exhibit customs that have been watered-down enough to be completely inoffensive, sometimes to parodies of their former selves. I also see this as tied to calculated moves on the part of big corporations to be as bland as possible in sensitive areas (race, religion, politics, gender) and they compensate by being over-striking in others (implied nudity, design by Apple, everything by Nike). Of course, that's fair and reasonable! France decided to be decidedly secular. America decides to be decidedly melting-pot-neutral and corporation-friendly. And so on.
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Dec 17, 2010 01:27
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ljw1004 posted:"Happy Holidays" doesn't recognize multiple religious holidays: it specifically recognizes none. (I'm ignoring the pedant's note about the etymology of "holidays"). You can't dismiss the fact that "holidays" in fact means holidays by just declaring it to be pedantry. I hope this is obvious to you, because I cannot find words to explain how little this makes sense.
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Dec 17, 2010 01:33
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Amarkov posted:You can't dismiss the fact that "holidays" in fact means holidays by just declaring it to be pedantry. I hope this is obvious to you, because I cannot find words to explain how little this makes sense.
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Dec 17, 2010 01:37
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You basically believe that the statement "Enjoy the various celebrations that occur this time of year" means "Enjoy the various celebrations that occur this time of year, but specifically only the non-religious ones?" Am I misreading what you're saying?
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Dec 17, 2010 01:43
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Scoe posted:So it's not an e-mail but this strange thing keeps happening every time I talk to my folks. Somewhere in the conversation usually completely apropos of nothing they will bring up the "fact" that France is a post apocalyptic hellhole that is on the verge of total collapse. Then they use that as a justification for why unemployment benefits need to end in the US. Now they get 100% of their news from the christian broadcasting network so I am sure it is something they have heard on there but is there any even slight truth to this? Or is there a good resource I can use to counteract this BS? The French don't take poo poo from ANYBODY, especially their government, and they get out in the streets and protest when the government does something or considers doing something they don't like. They also have far more liberal labor laws, so when organized labor (which still exists in France) gets pissed off they have massive strikes. Basically political protest is the national pastime of the French people. You can see how that would be very easy to spin as "verge of total collapse" especially since most Americans are totally unfamiliar with the idea of mass protest. Explain to your folks that the French consider this a normal way to express their political views when they don't like what the government is doing, and that America could probably do with a little more French spirit when it comes to politics. You might also mention that the French consider Americans huge pussies when it comes to voicing political opinions, that might shock them into re-examining their views. The idea that the French think Americans are pussies flies in the face of "common knowledge" about France in America. (And they do. The French are mystified by the American people's complacency.) Also challenge them on the unemployment thing, because what the gently caress? What kind of steps are they taking with that argument? How does France lead directly to unemployment? France has its problems just like any large country, but you have to at least know something about those problems to form a coherent argument. It sounds like your folks don't. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Dec 17, 2010 |
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Dec 17, 2010 01:46
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Manifest Dynasty posted:You basically believe that the statement "Enjoy the various celebrations that occur this time of year" means "Enjoy the various celebrations that occur this time of year, but specifically only the non-religious ones?" Am I misreading what you're saying? I think that "happy holidays" has come to mean "enjoy the midwinter period of celebration and time off work and the modern invention of 'the holidays' -- family, gifts, friendship, personal bonds, coca cola santa, shopping, reindeers, bill cosby, tree, stockings, snowmen". I also think it's come to mean "I dare not wish you a happy hannukah or christmas or whatever is my own religious/pagan tradition, and I also don't have the capability or willingness to wish you a happy whatever is your religious/pagan tradition, so I'm going to opt instead for this message that has been crafted to omit any suggestion of religious/pagan tradition."
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Dec 17, 2010 02:00
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ljw1004 posted:I think that "happy holidays" has come to mean "enjoy the midwinter period of celebration and time off work and the modern invention of 'the holidays' -- family, gifts, friendship, personal bonds, coca cola santa, shopping, reindeers, bill cosby, tree, stockings, snowmen". Do you have any reason for believing that this is what it's come to mean, other than the fact that you'd rather hear "merry Christmas"?
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Dec 17, 2010 02:14
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ljw1004 posted:I think that "happy holidays" has come to mean "enjoy the midwinter period of celebration and time off work and the modern invention of 'the holidays' -- family, gifts, friendship, personal bonds, coca cola santa, shopping, reindeers, bill cosby, tree, stockings, snowmen". No it means "I hope you enjoy whatever it is you celebrate. I'm not going to pretend I know what that is (or when it is if you're a Jew) and I probably don't even care but I hope whatever it happens to be is happy." I'll wish anyone a merry Christmas on Christmas and a happy Hanukkah oh Hanukkah but it's happy holidays for the rest of the month because there are many of them and everyone is different, although these days I usually say happy holidays to people I don't like because I know it will infuriate them. JGTheSpy fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Dec 17, 2010 |
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Dec 17, 2010 02:23
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Arglebargle III posted:Also challenge them on the unemployment thing, because what the gently caress? What kind of steps are they taking with that argument? How does France lead directly to unemployment? France has its problems just like any large country, but you have to at least know something about those problems to form a coherent argument. It sounds like your folks don't. As far as details on the unemployment thing they told me they heard an economist say that currently 10% of French society supports the other 90% via government handouts. I asked them for a source but couldn't get any specifics out of them. They think France is crumbling because socialism basically and since Obama is a known socialist we are headed that way too. It's a lot of deep rooted stuff in them to root out but, Family!
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Dec 17, 2010 02:37
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Manifest Dynasty posted:The "War on Christmas" is basically this: Anytime people want to recognize that there are several holidays around this time of year (instead of only recognizing and celebrating "CHRISTmas" exclusively), some groups get bent out of shape and say that "secular society" is colluding to suppress the holiday as an attack on christianity. Its stupid, because almost all the things they point to are things like "A company advises its employees to wish 'Happy Holidays' instead of 'Merry Christmas' because you never know what the customer celebrates" or "somebody putting up a display for a different religion's holiday next to a Christmas display." Basically people love to have a persecution complex without any of the actual shittiness that comes with being persecuted. If you're white, straight, middle class and male what's left to be persecuted over? Religion of course.
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Dec 17, 2010 02:59
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Amarkov posted:Do you have any reason for believing that this is what it's come to mean, other than the fact that you'd rather hear "merry Christmas"? I wouldn't rather hear "merry Christmas". I live in Seattle now. I accept that America has its own culture, largely derived from its melting-pot nature, its own response to that melting-pot, and its corporatism. I happily accept those parts of this culture that don't involve social injustice -- and "happy holidays" doesn't have any social injustice. (and yes I can't wait to buy a gun and am keen to build my own log cabin in Alaska!) Why do I think that "happy holidays" has that meaning? You're asking a difficult question, since the answer must necessarily be "that's my impression from my experiences". Some of the experiences: * My company's PR department stomped down on me for publishing media which has recognizable human forms and recognizable geographic locations. I've seen first hand the extreme culture-sensitive thinking behind a large corporation. (also I was disciplined for having a -- very chaste and fully clothed -- picture of Juliette Binoche in my cubicle. also for drinking wine with my packed lunch.) * When I arrived in America my company's immigration-assistance team gave immigrants a book that explained American customs. I partly learned from that about the culture of not raising the topics of religion or politics, of someone's feelings being sacrosanct and unquestionable. Coming from Italy, that was obviously a huge change. * I've met people who complained about "happy holidays" and listened to their reasons. Being staunchly atheist, I also talk about it with my atheist friends, and listen to their perspectives on "happy holidays". * I've had long discussions with many people about the French attitude to Muslim attire. Amongst the Americans I generally see an almost visceral disgust at the French -- for their lack of sensitivity. * In day-to-day life I've observed that Americans almost never express their concern that a thing might be offensive: instead they express concern that OTHER PEOPLE might find the thing offensive. This trait is deeply ingrained. I don't think Americans generally realize how ingrained nor how peculiar it seems to outsiders. You're never going to find a dictionary with a definitive statement of the cultural connotations of a phrase. This is the best I can do. edit: this is off topic. Unless someone specifically asks me to respond to anything, I'll not say any more. ljw1004 fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Dec 17, 2010 |
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Dec 17, 2010 03:05
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Scoe posted:As far as details on the unemployment thing they told me they heard an economist say that currently 10% of French society supports the other 90% via government handouts. Did you ask them how that situation might come to be? What if the top 10% took all the money and everyone else is impoverished? Interrupting the logical chain they've been fed is always a good tactic, no matter whether it's relevant to the current argument. Oh dear. If they believe the Sharia law thing they must be pretty far down the rabbit hole. Do they watch Fox? Because that's the only people outside European right-wingers who I've heard even talk about that kind of thing. I guess you've pointed out that France banned the headscarf, and asked them for any concrete evidence of Europe adopting Sharia? It's hard to argue with people who "know" so many completely false things. I just don't know about the Obama=socialist thing. There are so many angles to attack it from, so many obvious problems with the idea, but it just won't go away. I guess I would start by trying to get your people to understand what a socialist is in the first place. Good luck with that. Ugh gently caress this country.
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Dec 17, 2010 03:56
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Arglebargle III posted:Did you ask them how that situation might come to be? What if the top 10% took all the money and everyone else is impoverished? Interrupting the logical chain they've been fed is always a good tactic, no matter whether it's relevant to the current argument. They don't watch Fox, they have actually cloistered themselves deeper than that. The only channel they watch is CBN and they intake no news other than what they get on there. They are doing the cognitive dissonance thing where when reality doesn't conform with your beliefs you tune reality out. It's crazy frustrating and makes it hard to spend time with them even though I love them and in most areas they are lovely people. My biggest success so far has been to convince them that there is no gay conspiracy trying to ruin the sanctity of marriage and that gay people do deserve legal status as couples...as long as they don't call it marriage of course.
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Dec 17, 2010 04:26
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Scoe posted:As far as details on the unemployment thing they told me they heard an economist say that currently 10% of French society supports the other 90% via government handouts. I asked them for a source but couldn't get any specifics out of them. They think France is crumbling because socialism basically and since Obama is a known socialist we are headed that way too. It's a lot of deep rooted stuff in them to root out but, Family! quote:Still, French workers remain among the most productive in the world, ahead of Britain, Germany, the United States and Japan, according to the European statistics agency Eurostat, the AP reports. The reason they get away with working 30 hours per week is that they do as much in 30 hours as we do in 50+ hours. The French aren't lazy, they just get poo poo done so they have time to drink, eat well, and protest. Secretly, I think this is why we hate them.
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Dec 17, 2010 04:34
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nm posted:Look at these lazy loving French Pretty much yup. I think what is happening is that since economies worldwide are having issues people on the right are attempting to frame that as a failure of socialism and specifically on France since we love to hate them as it is. All that despite the fact that according to the CIA world factbook France has weathered the storm better than most. http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/france/france_economy.html
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Dec 17, 2010 04:58
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OK got a good one finally. (Bold mine) quote:November 27, 2010 DON'T MESS WITH THE MARINES. OORAH. SEMPER FI. (This is a real story but someone decided adding the bolded part was an amusing bit of "humor" http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101126/ap_on_re_us/us_marine_stabbed )
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Dec 17, 2010 13:05
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RagnarokAngel posted:OK got a good one finally. But... I actually thought that was funny. Am I a bad person 
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Dec 17, 2010 13:08
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It's not awful I mean we've seen way worse in this thread, but you know that was tacked on because it's more loving soldier worship where brutalizing someone beyond necessity is considered something to be idealized.
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Dec 17, 2010 13:39
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Out of curiosity, how do you respond to people that say "well those soldiers died for you to be able to say that!"
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Dec 17, 2010 13:46
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Residency Evil posted:Out of curiosity, how do you respond to people that say "well those soldiers died for you to be able to say that!" "Why are you dishonoring those dead soldiers by suggesting they condone unnecessary violence? Do you think they fought in wars because they found it fun to do so?"
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Dec 17, 2010 14:09
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If someone wishes you happy holidays they're basically wishing you "Happy whatever you're celebrating", or you know, just happy holidays. It's not a term to exclude all religions (because that would make it an attack on other religions besides Christianity as well), it's an all-inclusive term, if anything.ljw1004 posted:I also think it's come to mean "I dare not wish you a happy hannukah or christmas or whatever is my own religious/pagan tradition, and I also don't have the capability or willingness to wish you a happy whatever is your religious/pagan tradition, so I'm going to opt instead for this message that has been crafted to omit any suggestion of religious/pagan tradition." Angry Avocado fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Dec 17, 2010 |
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Dec 17, 2010 14:33
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Residency Evil posted:Out of curiosity, how do you respond to people that say "well those soldiers died for you to be able to say that!" "Then it's a good thing I'm exercising my right to say it or they would have died for nothing"
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Dec 17, 2010 16:00
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Arglebargle III posted:You can see how that would be very easy to spin as "verge of total collapse" especially since most Americans are totally unfamiliar with the idea of mass protest. Explain to your folks that the French consider this a normal way to express their political views when they don't like what the government is doing, and that America could probably do with a little more French spirit when it comes to politics. You might also mention that the French consider Americans huge pussies when it comes to voicing political opinions, that might shock them into re-examining their views. The idea that the French think Americans are pussies flies in the face of "common knowledge" about France in America. (And they do. The French are mystified by the American people's complacency.) The sweetest of ironies here is that all of this behaviour was learned from the United States. The French were inspired by the American Revolution to have their own, and fully embraced the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. We taught them not to trust their government, organize their labour, and speak truth to power. As one who lived in France for a couple of years, I can attest that the French do know Americans to be politically & socially pussified. in 1975, My mother, who is fluent, overheard a conversation at the next table at a restaurant criticizing Americans and she launched into a broadside, which caught these diners by surprise but which then settled down into a healthy debate, and ultimately praise for the US system (well, at least as written).
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Dec 17, 2010 16:27
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I have several of these types of email from circa 2007-08. My uncle and I both served in the Marines, so obviously I'm also a super-conservative, white bible-thumper  . I hope these have not been posted already, I'll try to break them up into several posts.quote:I just KNEW you would appreciate this one… J I love that the beginning starts with "well I haven't actually added up these numbers, but it seems like it makes sense" and ends with "If you're not a REAL AMERICAN like me, you'll never understand." I can't tell if it's a critique of the tax system, or if it's a gently caress-the-crybaby-poor thing. red19fire fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Dec 17, 2010 |
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Dec 17, 2010 17:35
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Then, once Obama announced his candidacy, the real lunacy began.quote:DO YOU THINK HE WOULD WEAR A SHIRT LIKE THAT TO FOOL PEOPLE AND INFLUENCE THEIR VOTE? NOW, COULD THAT BE THE CHANGE HE ALWAYS TALKS ABOUT? We Marines have earned the right to this USMC title, and we allow no phony imposters into our very exclusive club!. We appreciate and respect our fellow American Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen, but don't take kindly to anyone faking it, especially those who have never served our country in uniform!!!!! You should object to him wearing any military designation - - but then again, everyone knows how much he has "supported" our men and women under arms!!! Attached is this picture of Obama:  Obviously, he's committing fraud and high treason by wearing a shirt with USMC on it, easily purchased from any number of retailers, while playing basketball with USMC war veterans. I mean what an rear end in a top hat, right? MY WIFE gets to wear a USMC shirt, but she's not committing treason because she 'sacrifices' just as much as ARE SOLDIERS!  It's like complaining about someone wearing a football team's jersey. YOU'RE NOT ELI MANNING! YOU DON'T PLAY FOR THE GIANTS, rear end in a top hat!
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Dec 17, 2010 17:51
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Amarkov posted:But... I actually thought that was funny. Am I a bad person Yeah man hahahaha, beating someone severely, breaking multiple bones, HILARIOUS
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Dec 17, 2010 18:08
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But red, where are the misinformed gun-toting REAL AMERICAN emails? RIGHT HERE!quote:A Little Gun History Lesson I know for a fact that the Australia fact is bullshit. Correct me if I'm wrong, because this was the subject of a paper I wrote 4 years ago. The Australian government outlawed automatic weapons with high capacity magazines, similar to the mid-90's assault rifle ban. Why? Because a disturbed Australian citizen legally purchased an assault rifle and killed 20 people at a McDonald's. Homicides went down overall in the years after the ban, but there was already a decline when the ban took effect, so it's not really clear what effect the ban had. What is interesting is that after the ban took place, homicide by means other than guns went up. Homicides via stabbing, blunt trauma, arson, poison, etc. actually increased to "fill in the gap" that banning easy access to assault rifles created. My conclusion was that people are going to kill each other, one way or another.
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Dec 17, 2010 18:10
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Isn't badmouthing the commander-in-chief an offense against Military Regs?
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Dec 17, 2010 18:12
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red's uncle posted:OH H- -L NO!!! WE'RE BIG TOUGH MEN DON'T TREAD ON ME but please don't say the "h" word
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Dec 17, 2010 18:26
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Then there's this, typical OBAMA WILL CONFISCATE ALL THE GUNS tripe.quote:MESSAGE FROM GABE SUAREZ Plenty of spelling errors, complete misunderstanding of international relations and foreign policy, and thinly-veiled disgust at the elected president (B. HUSSEIN OBAMA AM I RIGHT?!?) Having read this several times, it could just be a brilliant bit of marketing by a gun store owner trying to drum up business with wink/nudge warnings of a possible upcoming armed revolution.
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Dec 17, 2010 18:29
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red19fire posted:I have several of these types of email from circa 2007-08. My uncle and I both served in the Marines, so obviously I'm also a super-conservative, white bible-thumper I e-mailed that professor once. He told me he didn't write it. I forwarded it to the people who sent it to me and told them they're liars.
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Dec 17, 2010 19:23
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pillsburysoldier posted:I e-mailed that professor once. Isn't this really drat common for these sorts of things? Like, if it isn't a professor, it's Robin Williams, George Carlin, or Bill Cosby (essentially, the people who would be the least likely to have ever said any of these things in real life)?
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Dec 17, 2010 19:42
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It's always even more nefarious when its "Bill Cosby" or "Chris Rock" or "Nelson Mandela" because they usually go like this: HEY CHECK OUT WHAT BILL COSBY WROTE! I GUESS HE'S ONE OF THE GOOD ONES. "Hey Real Americans, this is Bill Cosby. I'm black. And by the way, did you know that black folks can't wear their pants like real americans and they don't speak correctly? I'm just so upset that all my black brothers and sisters are so inferior to you good white folks that they must survive on welfare because they don't have the brains to get a real american job like you good folks. and what about that B. HUSSEIN OBAMA? Good thing he's not Mexican cause they're even worse. Peace out, whitey!" MAN HE SURE IS RIGHT! AND HEY IT'S NOT RACIST CAUSE HE'S BLACK AND HE SAID IT NOT ME.
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Dec 17, 2010 20:28
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Coitus_Interruptus posted:Yeah man hahahaha, beating someone severely, breaking multiple bones, HILARIOUS It is hilarious when he stabs someone first.
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Dec 17, 2010 20:47
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red19fire got hit with posted:It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. How long has this email been going around for ? It hasn't been 12 months, it was 14 years ago, in 1996 shortly after Martin Bryant purchased two automatic weapons from a licensed gun dealer and killed 35 people and wounded 21 in a coffee shop at the Port Arthur tourist spot. Sure, the Homicide rate in 1996 in Australia was 2 per 100,000, which fell to 1.2 per 100,000 in 2009. But the Homicide rate in the US was 7.4 in 1996, and fell to 5.4 in 2008 - most of the western world is in a 20 year period where homicide rates (expressed as a percentage of population) are falling, and there is no one single cause for it. The great thing about crime statistics is that you can prove pretty much anything with them. Need them to rise ? Report total number of incidents, or target areas with high populations and compare them to areas with lower populations, or a different time frame. Need them to drop ? Choose it as a percentage, or exclude certain categories or go for certain ages or ethnic groups. Basically, crime rates are the sluts of the statistics world.
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Dec 17, 2010 20:56
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Coitus_Interruptus posted:Yeah man hahahaha, beating someone severely, breaking multiple bones, HILARIOUS Eh, if you're going to commit assault and a robbery, picking uniformed Marines as the target isn't the brightest choice.
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Dec 17, 2010 23:29
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