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Rutibex posted:Do you think this non-violent protest will accomplish anything? Besides extra beatings and solitary confinement? This is not really an argument you can use when I can assure you that violent protest will do much, much worse than the status quo. Rutibex posted:It may very well, there have been lots of success stories of non-violent disobedience. There has been a larger amount of successful violent revolutions. It's not a stupid fantasy, it's worked before. The USA is proof positive. It is an extremely stupid fantasy in this situation. You have zero chance of success and close to a 100% chance of making things dramatically worse than the status quo.
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Dec 13, 2010 06:52
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Violent revolution by the prisoners will not only accomplish nothing, but be wildly counterproductive. According to one of HFG's many, many prison effortposts, the prevalence of prison gangs today can be directly traced back to new policies pursued by the prison system in the wake of the bloody Attica prison riots back in the 70s.
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Dec 13, 2010 06:59
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And nothing stops any effort to "unite prisoners further in the cause" like 24/7 solitary confinement.
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Dec 13, 2010 07:03
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The only way a "violent uprising" could possibly occur would be if gangs on the outside literally sieged a prison in the middle of a riot or uprising. The bloody aftermath of gangs going up against SWAT teams and a whole police department would be the label of "Terrorist" bandied about and more horrible brutality, not people realizing "hey, we drove these people to this extreme, maybe we should reconsider treating them like animals!" Now, elect some progressive congresspeople with backbones, we might get somewhere.
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Dec 13, 2010 07:06
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evilweasel posted:And nothing stops any effort to "unite prisoners further in the cause" like 24/7 solitary confinement. They literally don't have enough regular cell for prisoners, let alone solitary. They couldn't put them all in the hole. I don't think this is an issue that can just be dismissed. Budget cuts and overcrowding are only getting worse. As the ratio of prisoners/security dollars gets higher the possibility only increases. You are right though that (unless it was part of something bigger) a violent prison rebellion would end up making things worse for the prisoners in the short term.
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Dec 13, 2010 07:25
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Rutibex posted:What makes mass escape impossible? I imagine that response time for a prison riot is likely pretty good, but we're talking about thousands of healthy young males. I can't see it being stopped if they where united and determined. A mass-action or 'riot' situation is actually the absolute worst time to even think about an escape, let alone a mass escape. There's just too many physical barriers, and prisons have been built that way since the Civil War. That's why you didn't see mass escapes during the Attica riots, and that was as close to a full-scale military operation as you can get in this country unless you're trying to break up a coal-miner strike or something. Especially in a lockdown situation like this one, there will be many redundant barriers between the inmates and the outside. Add to that the gun-towers which will actually be manned in a situation like this (and manned with go-getters instead of doddering grandpas a year from retirement), plus anyone caught in a common area or traversing from a lockdown zone to any other zone will be dealt with (shot), on and on... attempting escape during a lockdown is suicide. Successful escapes happen when guards slack off during the routine, day-to-day grind; not when they are at triple strength on full alert and pumped full of 5hr drinks, adrenaline, and amphetamines. They happen by exploiting the natural human tendency toward complacency, or the natural tendency of institutions and corporations to cut corners to save a buck. Right now every law enforcement officer and reserve deputy in the surrounding community is on high alert- wound up tighter than a Swiss watch- with countermeasures at the ready such as dog teams, helicopters with sophisticated sensors, infra-red scopes, and all the rest. Plus half the yahoos in a 25-mile radius heard about it on the radio and got their trusty shotguns loaded up waiting for some dude in an orange jumpsuit to wander by their trailer. This is the worst possible time to try and break out of a Georgia prison, and an even worse time to succeed.
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Dec 13, 2010 09:23
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Rutibex posted:They literally don't have enough regular cell for prisoners, let alone solitary. 
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Dec 13, 2010 09:26
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evilweasel posted:You have to be brain-damaged to think that a prison riot that causes bloodshed would lead to improvements. Just in my hometown, the 1988 Fremantle prison riot in Australia burnt a huge chunk of the ancient and frankly brutal old prison to the floor, led to 18 serious injuries (Including by pouring shitloads of boiling water on some guards heads) involved kidnapped screws, and generally was a pretty violent and messed up riot. 3 years later the place was shut down, pretty much as a direct result, and replaced with newer prisons that are basically not too far removed from the european ones many prison reform advocates seem to drool over. Theres plenty of examples of prison riots leading to improvements. Not that its all rosy. Theres criminal investigations on at the moment over prison guards using tasers for enforcing discipline, rather than just self defense. Mind you thats not isolated to prisons. Evidence has recently emerged that police here have been using tasers on people merely for disobeying orders, leading to some cops being fired and some criminal charges against the cops for using them for reasons other than self defense. duck monster fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Dec 13, 2010 |
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Dec 13, 2010 17:01
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duck monster posted:Just in my hometown, the 1988 Fremantle prison riot in Australia burnt a huge chunk of the ancient and frankly brutal old prison to the floor, led to 18 serious injuries (Including by pouring shitloads of boiling water on some guards heads) involved kidnapped screws, and generally was a pretty violent and messed up riot. I'm all for violent revolt, don't get me wrong, but Australia has a vastly different, and in many ways better, culture than America. In America, people don't generally question the media's reason why violence occurred, let alone want to understand why violence occurred, let alone want to prevent violence from occurring. This also doesn't touch on the many powerful interests that can and will do everything in their power to silence popular opinion on positive reform, if such a will for reform was to ever start to gain power in America. We use prisons as a loop hole to continue slavery once slavery was outlawed. I don't think Australia used prisons for that reason, but I could be wrong. Tempora Mutantur fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Dec 13, 2010 |
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Dec 13, 2010 17:30
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quote:We use prisons as a loop hole to continue slavery once slavery was outlawed. I don't think you guys used prisons for that reason, but I could be wrong. If it wasn't for the recent surge of privatized prisons I would have to say no (Not saying prison system in America is great, in fact I think it's terrible, draconic and completely takes advantage of our poor) but since we've been pushing really hard for private companies to take over our prisons I have to say yes. How else can you justify paying prisoners literally anywhere from 10 cents to 50 cents an hour for labor, forced to work 7 days a week for 12 hour shifts? Also I've read a few articles hinting that prison labor is starting to become commercially available to other private corporations, it's loving disgusting. http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8289 PTBrennan fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Dec 13, 2010 |
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Dec 13, 2010 21:52
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flux_core posted:The entire premise of prison seems loving stupid. The only reason we don't address it and try something completely different, only locking up the truly dangerous, is because we've had it for so long. Because it was never funded, it is a clusterfuck. It is basically a prison sentence on the installment plan because there is no real effective treatment provided. We need to understand that spending money on "criminals" in terms of treatment and education is expensive. Very expensive. But it is cheaper and better for society than than putting non-violent offenders (a category I might define more broadly than the average person) in prison. However, for some reason voters can't get this through their head. They want punishment and think education is "rewarding" the criminal.
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Dec 14, 2010 09:59
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nm posted:However, for some reason voters can't get this through their head. They want punishment and think education is "rewarding" the criminal. They're right to a degree, from my perspective. I would love nothing more than to be able to return to university, though it is financially impossible. If I could get the same education for free in prison I would very much consider committing some crimes to do so.
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Dec 14, 2010 16:24
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Rutibex posted:They're right to a degree, from my perspective. I would love nothing more than to be able to return to university, though it is financially impossible. If I could get the same education for free in prison I would very much consider committing some crimes to do so. Thank you for demonstrating the problem with virtually every voter: they think, "Someone has something I don't! gently caress THAT PERSON AND TAKE THAT poo poo AWAY!" instead of, "Hey, how come that person has something I don't when both of us should have that something? Why don't we both have that something? It's not like the guy in the box is keeping me away from free education complete with complimentary chance of raping. Hm. Who, who is keeping free education away from everyone? Who?"
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Dec 14, 2010 17:25
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quote:They're right to a degree, from my perspective. I would love nothing more than to be able to return to university, though it is financially impossible. If I could get the same education for free in prison I would very much consider committing some crimes to do so. Did you ever stop to think that maybe it was the prisoners lack of access to education (or decent education because let's not lie the majority of public schools are a joke in USA) that may have something to do with the fact that he or she is in prison in the first place? Imagine if you will being the child of two gang members. All you've ever know and been exposed to is gang life. You were never forced to go to school because your parents didn't value education but rather everything you were taught comes from your gang member parents and the gang. Is it really a surprise that this individual ended up in jail? And don't you think instead of telling this person how horrible they are, sticking them in a cage and then making sure to brand them with an arrest conviction that will follow them around the rest of their lives we should be educating them and trying to help them unlearn the horrible lessons they were taught while they were children. To me that seems like the only reasonable thing to do if we expect these people to become functioning members of what we deem our "Society". What is that single mother who's been in prison for 3 years on a non-violent drug charge suppose to do once she is free, has no money, no friends or family, is a recovering drug addict and now has a criminal record? Don't you think for those 3 years in prison she should be getting an education, have access to a job that pays at least minimum wage so that when she gets out of jail she would have enough money for at least a low income apartment and 3 years work experience to put on her resume that would greatly help her find a job? PTBrennan fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Dec 14, 2010 |
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Dec 14, 2010 17:32
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S.T.C.A. posted:Thank you for demonstrating the problem with virtually every voter: they think, "Someone has something I don't! gently caress THAT PERSON AND TAKE THAT poo poo AWAY!" instead of, "Hey, how come that person has something I don't when both of us should have that something? Why don't we both have that something? It's not like the guy in the box is keeping me away from free education complete with complimentary chance of raping. Hm. Who, who is keeping free education away from everyone? Who?" I don't think it should be taken away, quite the opposite. For the few people I think are actually worth locking up for everyone's safety I think it should be mandatory. I'm just saying maybe publicly financed university for all (not bullshit loans, a right for everyone to free education) might prevent some of these cases from getting to the point of prison in the first place.
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Dec 14, 2010 19:36
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Rutibex posted:I don't think it should be taken away, quite the opposite. For the few people I think are actually worth locking up for everyone's safety I think it should be mandatory. You were referencing the idea that people consider education a "reward" for criminals and you said they were right to a degree. That's what I'm referring to as a problem in the framing of how education for prisoners is viewed. Otherwise it appears we're in agreement.
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Dec 14, 2010 20:19
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quote:free education
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Dec 14, 2010 20:30
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HidingFromGoro posted:Change the degree on your resume to reflect "University of Phoenix / CDCR Correspondence Program; San Quentin State Prison" and see how many callbacks you get. I study physics and cosmology, I'm more interested in the education then getting a job  I doubt it's something they offer in the state prison curriculum anyway.
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Dec 14, 2010 20:32
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Rutibex posted:I study physics and cosmology, I'm more interested in the education then getting a job He does make a good point, though. Even if you do educated prisoners, they probably won't have a better chance at getting a job unless, you know, people's attitudes change first.
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Dec 14, 2010 20:39
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21stCentury posted:He does make a good point, though. Even if you do educated prisoners, they probably won't have a better chance at getting a job unless, you know, people's attitudes change first. But would an ex-con who is a high school drop out be on equal footing with one who has a degree? It still improves their chances, as well as the variety of places they can even attempt applying. They are still in for real difficult time being reintegrated, but it is less so. I also believe that education improves the character of a person. Even if it doesn't help them financially it will be of great benefit to their lives and the lives of the people they are returning to.
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Dec 14, 2010 20:48
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Elaine Brown, formerly of the Black Panthers, was on Democracy Now today to talk about the on-going strike in Georgia, and a bit of the general prison shittiness as well. http://www.democracynow.org/2010/12/14/prisoner_advocate_elaine_brown_on_georgia Apparently the cellphones were purchased from guards, like practically all smuggled contraband, in one case for as much as $800.
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Dec 14, 2010 21:17
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quote:Using cell phones purchased from guards, the prisoners coordinated the nonviolent protests to stage the largest prison strike in U.S. history. quote:There are reports of widespread violence and brutality by the guards against the prisoners on strike. This more than anything is what disgusts me the most. We like to stigmatize prisoners as these seedy, below human individuals but the people who watch them break the laws right beside them. It's a double standard that everyone likes to downplay or pretend it isn't as wide spread as the prisoners make it out to be but is a serious part of the problem in my opinion because unfortunately we have no way of watching for this and I'm sure prison officials aren't exactly rushing to out their guards for being corrupt. If you have a prison guard beating you for participating in a non-violent protest what is a prisoner suppose to do? Just sit back and let that officer beat him because he or she is an inmate? But if you fight back it's resisting arrest or assault on a police officer. It's disgusting. PTBrennan fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Dec 14, 2010 |
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Dec 14, 2010 22:17
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JMBosch posted:$800. Not as much as it sounds for a cellphone, especially considering whoever sold it to them knew what was going to happen. Then too, a packet of ramen is $1 and a can of soda is $2. (and those are the prices to get them legit from the facility). Contraband costs a lot more, 5 to 10 times the price for things like drugs or cellphones. $80 for a totally anonymous phone with minutes on it isn't too bad in the World.
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Dec 15, 2010 00:08
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HidingFromGoro posted:$80 for a totally anonymous phone with minutes on it isn't too bad in the World. JMBosch posted:$800
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Dec 15, 2010 01:29
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Dec 15, 2010 07:23
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Rutibex posted:They're right to a degree, from my perspective. I would love nothing more than to be able to return to university, though it is financially impossible. If I could get the same education for free in prison I would very much consider committing some crimes to do so. Even people who have no other place to go than the sidewalk recognize the mental imbalance of someone who says such a thing. And the ONLY people I've heard say such things are relatively wealthy people who are unafraid of their position in society...people like YOU think it's a big joke. Jail's no joke, even if it were reformed and provided more rehab than segregation from society. It still wouldn't provide motivation for committing crimes. The motivation for crime are the rewards gotten from not being caught. People, by and large, just want something from the crime, not some potential benefit from being caught and put in jail. They want the money. They want the property. They want the enjoyment of taking their sorrow out on another person. So stop saying this thing, that a "kinder" prison would provide increased incentive to commit crime. It's untrue, make you look stupid, and furthers the myth of the Welfare Queen.
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Dec 15, 2010 23:02
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anonumos posted:I've known a number of homeless people, educated and not. I've met mentally ill homeless, misfits, freeloaders, druggies, and the purely unlucky. Not one single person has said they would prefer to commit crimes for the privilege of "three squares and a cot". This is a myth, and a particularly vile one at that. It was an off the cuff post, apon further reflection it's obviously incorrect. We pretty much agree on all of these issues. As a side note I don't really appreciate making this some kind of personal attack. Your assumptions are just plane wrong, I'm not by any stretch a "relatively wealthy people who are unafraid of their position in society". I in fact live in an unheated car port and consider myself fortunate to have eaten any particular day. The only reason I am able to post this is because I refuse to pawn my netbook and the neighbors chose a poor form of wifi encryption. Don't assume things about people.
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Dec 16, 2010 02:17
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anonumos posted:I've known a number of homeless people, educated and not. I've met mentally ill homeless, misfits, freeloaders, druggies, and the purely unlucky. Not one single person has said they would prefer to commit crimes for the privilege of "three squares and a cot". This is a myth, and a particularly vile one at that. It happens, it's not super common, but it does happen. There's even a name for it: "doing life on the installment plan."
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Dec 16, 2010 02:35
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HidingFromGoro posted:It happens, it's not super common, but it does happen. There's even a name for it: "doing life on the installment plan." Regardless, that doesn't make the problem prison, it means the problem is a lack of alternatives.
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Dec 16, 2010 02:42
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HidingFromGoro posted:It happens, it's not super common, but it does happen. There's even a name for it: "doing life on the installment plan." I had no doubt that a few people did this, but I didn't think it was very common. Having said that, a horribly common response to me anytime I try to bring up prison reform is "pfft, those guys have it good. Food, cable, etc." I don't know why that persists. It's tough to argue against that kind of ignorance, though, without pointing them to a pile of text that they have zero interest in reading because "gently caress criminals".
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Dec 16, 2010 03:48
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Personal experience, although if you need a paper or something I'll look around. Do you have a Lexis account? To be clear, what I hear is not literally "I can't wait to come back and have this great food," but instead "I'm getting out and I don't know what I'm going to do, I'll be back in here soon, I just know it" and "gently caress it man I do better in here than out there." Alternative sentences or alternatives to punishment altogether? I'd say the main way to eliminate the installment plan would be more access to better-funded drug treatment and post-release socialization, and some place for the mentally ill to go that isn't jail or one of those shoddy "homes" that boomers run (my parents are trying to get one of the three in their neighborhood shut down right now). With the mental illness, a lot of the meds are expensive and you know how it is if you're broke or have no insurance. And something better for post-release transitional housing than the current system of halfway houses (although not all HH are bad). Now that kind of stuff costs tax money, but it's possible that after the upfront costs are paid it's still cheaper than prison time; since basically every imaginable alternative is cheaper than prison. Then you've also got things that make compliance with parole or probation more difficult; that's kind of it's own issue though.
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Dec 16, 2010 04:03
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nm posted:We need to understand that spending money on "criminals" in terms of treatment and education is expensive. Very expensive. But it is cheaper and better for society than than putting non-violent offenders (a category I might define more broadly than the average person) in prison. However, for some reason voters can't get this through their head. They want punishment and think education is "rewarding" the criminal. What's even more of a mindbender is people's reactions to the "your kid" question: "If your kid committed a first-time crime of X (caught with a quarter-gram of crack, whatever) what punishment would you recommend?" The answer is universally: "Well obviously I'd send him to drug treatment, he shouldn't be sent to prison for seven years. My child is an angel. The judge would probably show mercy and the attorneys would understand and we'd work it out." "If some random guy committed the exact same crime, how would you react?" "SEND THAT DEVIL TO JAIL!" BigHead fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Dec 17, 2010 |
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Dec 17, 2010 01:59
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HidingFromGoro, does this sound like a better alternative then existing programs or a worse one? It's discussing something I hadn't heard of called a 'wet house' that focuses on Alcoholics. http://www.twincities.com/ci_16774107 quote:Marion Hagerman appreciates your concern. Since it mentioned it was an alternative to prison (among other places), I thought I would post it here.
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Dec 17, 2010 17:12
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Michaelos posted:HidingFromGoro, does this sound like a better alternative then existing programs or a worse one? It's discussing something I hadn't heard of called a 'wet house' that focuses on Alcoholics. This "approach" seems to me more like a cost saving/harm reduction measure than an alternative to prison. They have basically given up on these people but don't have the balls to execute them so they put them in a situation to let them commit suicide themselves. I think an "unconditional love" approach rather than a "gently caress it, I give up, do what you want" would much better serve these desperate people. So let them drink in the halfway house, let them come in drunk, etc. Never turn them away to sleep on the streets, but don't let up on trying to help them improve their situation (which may very well not include stopping drinking, maybe just cutting back enough to function). These people are obviously highly depressed, and who can blame them. They're mostly homeless and even the treatment centers have given up on them. Their only pleasure in life is alcohol, of course they are going to over indulge.
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Dec 17, 2010 18:02
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BigHead posted:What's even more of a mindbender is people's reactions to the "your kid" question: The sad thing is that this would actually happen to the children of the people who write these laws. It is fascinating how class can work its way into sentencing. And this is beyond the stuff not on the record. How so and so went to college, has a good job, contributes to the community through working with nonprofits, homeowner. How they started intensive drug rehab before even being arraigned (because they could afford bail AND a very expensive drug program). Facts to find an exceptional circumstance, and grant probation, I'm sure. Thats if the prosecutor, who likely knows the parents (or knows someone who does), doesn't think, well this is a good kid with problems and dumps it to a misdemeanor. It amazes me how much things matter. Two almost similar cases: 1. Upper class white kid aims a fake gun at another car. "Stupid kid poo poo, community service" 2. Lower class black kid. "He scared the poo poo out of those people. 90d. 60 if he pleas today." Goddamn. This happens.
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Dec 17, 2010 22:18
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nm posted:I like this. 1. 14 year-old black girl steals car, crashes it. It rolls onto and kills a toddler. Charge? First degree felony murder. 2. 17 and 18 year-old white high school football players from rich side of town playing paintball shootout on a four-lane highway. One of the trucks crashes and kills a passenger. Charge? Misdemeanor vehicular manslaughter all time suspended, expunged after a year. (Don't want to ruin their bright futures, after all) This was actually a good thing, in a twisted way. The WTF injustice between the two cases (that happened within weeks of each other) played a part in getting the girl sent to juvenile rather than adult court.
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Dec 18, 2010 00:05
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joat mon posted:1. 14 year-old black girl steals car, crashes it. It rolls onto and kills a toddler. Charge? First degree felony murder. I may or may not have written a memo advocating that a nurse be charged with felony murder 'facilitating in the consumption of a schedule 1 drug' for accidentally administering morphine when she did not have the dispensation to without doctor supervision. (Yes the woman receiving the morphine died and a doctor was not around to give dispensation). Felony murder is a blight upon our criminal justice system.
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Dec 18, 2010 00:18
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Hawaiian inmates beaten, threatened, at for-profit CCA prison in AZ.quote:Hawaiian Prisoners Beaten, Threatened in CCA Prison in Arizona
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Dec 18, 2010 01:44
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duck monster posted:Just in my hometown, the 1988 Fremantle prison riot in Australia burnt a huge chunk of the ancient and frankly brutal old prison to the floor, led to 18 serious injuries (Including by pouring shitloads of boiling water on some guards heads) involved kidnapped screws, and generally was a pretty violent and messed up riot. I have met one of the 'screws' that happened to be one of the people who copped the boiling water treatment. I am not exagerating when I say that at first I thought he had been caught in a fire. He looks that bad. Funnily enough, not only was he pragmatic about the attack, saying it could have been worse and his children might not have a father, but he was also an advocate of prison reform. He hoped it would stop what happened to him from happening again. Our prison system has progressed, Rangeview is non-confrontational for juveniles and Hakea is a world class example of a medium security prison, combining incarceration with education, activities and programs for all of the residents that wish to participate. Casuarina still has a long way to go. There are less programs, as you would expect of a maximum security prison, and there is still the looming prospect of segregation. Residents who are considered to be trouble still face the prospect of being locked up 22/7. In special cases this can extend to 23/7 and be combined with complete segregation from the other residents and guards. At least we still have Wooroloo. That is where I would like to go if I was locked up. No bars, no bullshit and a great selection of programs for those who are interested. E: ESL horrible grammar. Skyworks fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Dec 18, 2010 |
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Dec 18, 2010 17:07
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JudicialRestraints posted:Felony murder is a blight upon our criminal justice system. Felony murder is right up there with three strikes laws in my eyes. Especially considering all the poo poo they can put on you because of your co-felons. Basically, your co-felon kills someone, and you get felony murder because they're your agent. Or negligent poo poo that your co-felons did that got themselves killed (car accident while escaping or something comparable).
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Dec 20, 2010 06:45
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