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keiran_helcyan posted:Thought I'd check out Rothfuss' blog to see if he had any info on the upcoming novel and of course the top post was a detailed 3 page argument on the evils of circumcision. He truly is an alpha internet nerd. Wait, which blog is that? I usually go to http://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/ and I'm not seeing anything circumcision related at the moment, just a poo poo load of fundraising stuff.
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# ? Dec 3, 2010 23:30 |
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# ? May 8, 2024 05:44 |
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I thought I had gone crazy for a minute there, but for some reason last night the blog button on his homepage linked to this entry: http://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/2010/04/concerning-circumcision/ Actually yeah, when you click the blog next to a picture of his face on the homepage it directs to that article for a second then redirects to the newest one, bizarre.
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# ? Dec 3, 2010 23:59 |
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So I'm at about page 400 and all I can think of is 'how is there another ~300 pages of this'. As I get older, I'm getting way more critical of book length. Gene Wolfe writes amazing stories that max out at 800 pages, maybe. Guy Gavriel Kay is similar. And I would call their stuff suitably epic. Breaking out of genre-bound stuff, there's other authors who do similarly 'epic' works that cover different worlds and/or cultures, rules, spans of times, that are contained to less-than-doorstopper novels. With the exception of someone like say Martin, padding is padding, and SFF needs to learn that page count does not equal quality or development (and even Martin needs editing down, as the bad thread has agreed). Erikson is a bad example because his books could easily be half the length they are. That and the 'rule' I mentioned applies more to the narrative than the literal timeline. Actually, saying that book length features into the reading enjoyment one gets is kind of misguided, really. Here's yet another movie analogy, but it's not like Tarantino thought 'oh wait, my story needs to be a sweeping seven hour trilogy of a crime epic and we need to see Vincent Vega grow up as a young hoodlum, see him travel to Amsterdam and his adventures there, watch as he bites into a Royale With Cheese, so we properly know his character so that the film will be that much better!' Oftentimes less is more, but going by Rothfuss' blog, the next book is even longer...
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# ? Dec 6, 2010 00:58 |
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SaviourX posted:Breaking out of genre-bound stuff, there's other authors who do similarly 'epic' works that cover different worlds and/or cultures, rules, spans of times, that are contained to less-than-doorstopper novels. With the exception of someone like say Martin, padding is padding, and SFF needs to learn that page count does not equal quality or development (and even Martin needs editing down, as the bad thread has agreed). Erikson is a bad example because his books could easily be half the length they are. That and the 'rule' I mentioned applies more to the narrative than the literal timeline. This might just be something that's one of those divides in fantasy readers, like whether or not dragons are cliched, but I don't think that a lack of big worldbuilding is necessarily a hindrance. Frequently, I find that epic worldbuilding tends to translate to a bunch of names of characters, places or things that don't feature in the story for the sake of making things bigger. I'm perfectly fine with a story that's light on worldbuilding and heavy on character development. Though, the lack of it has already been pointed out as a flaw with this book.
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# ? Dec 6, 2010 14:59 |
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SaviourX posted:So I'm at about page 400 and all I can think of is 'how is there another ~300 pages of this'. This is basically how I felt. The Name of the Wind really felt like it could easily be summarized into the prologue of another book, without missing anything of significance. The story just draaaaags on with so many petty conflicts and "woe is me I need money" situations. The whole chandrian (or whatever) storyline (which I gather is the main event) never went anywhere or felt like it actually mattered in any way. I think this may be the first book I have ever read where even an encounter with a dragon was tedious. That said, I enjoyed reading the book. Just the more I think about it the worse I feel about it. I have no intention of reading the sequel unless I hear his style has vastly improved.
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# ? Dec 8, 2010 02:14 |
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zedar posted:That said, I enjoyed reading the book. Just the more I think about it the worse I feel about it. This is exactly how I feel. I enjoyed the book but beyond that I really can't think of any positive things to say about it at this point.
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# ? Dec 8, 2010 03:48 |
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im starting to feel like im either stupid or a bad person for really liking his book and eagerly anticipating a sequel
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# ? Dec 8, 2010 04:01 |
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treeboy posted:im starting to feel like im either stupid or a bad person for really liking his book and eagerly anticipating a sequel Not at all. Unless a book is a manifesto of hate crimes or something, you should never feel bad for liking a book. Rothfuss' prose is excellent and his character, while undoubtedly Mary Sue, is likable. Artistically, it's really good. Structurally, maybe less so.
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# ? Dec 8, 2010 04:57 |
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anathenema posted:Rothfuss' prose is excellent and his character, while undoubtedly Mary Sue, is likable. Artistically, it's really good. Structurally, maybe less so. Pretty much this. It isn't a classic, but it definitely isn't a warhams 40k or dragonlance book. You don't have to feel guilty for reading this one and liking it.
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# ? Dec 9, 2010 00:32 |
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I understand why this book gets so much hate, but I have to say that I enjoy it a lot. I just read it again yesterday and was captivated. Different strokes, I guess. March can't come quick enough. Oh well, I should probably take the time and catch up on the Malazan books and finish The First Law trilogy. Eerkik fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Dec 11, 2010 |
# ? Dec 11, 2010 08:46 |
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Eerkik posted:March can't come quick enough. Oh well, I should probably take the time and catch up on the Malazan books and finish The First Law trilogy. I think my winter break is going to be almost entirely devoted to finishing my first read of Wheel of Time.
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# ? Dec 11, 2010 08:56 |
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"I have known her longer, my smile said. True, you have been inside the circle of her arms, tasted her mouth, felt the warmth of her, and that is something I have never had. But there is a part of her that is only for me. You cannot touch it, no matter how hard you might try. And after she has left you I will still be here, making her laugh. My light shining in her. I will still be here long after she has forgotten your name." This might be the single creepiest thing I have ever read. All the stuff involving Denna was kind of akward for me, but this passage here just takes the cake.
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# ? Dec 14, 2010 20:57 |
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keiran_helcyan posted:"I have known her longer, my smile said. True, you have been inside the circle of her arms, tasted her mouth, felt the warmth of her, and that is something I have never had. But there is a part of her that is only for me. You cannot touch it, no matter how hard you might try. And after she has left you I will still be here, making her laugh. My light shining in her. I will still be here long after she has forgotten your name." that one's good but the one where he explains to his friends that she's a shy deer and he needs to creep up on her is pretty fantastic as well.
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# ? Dec 15, 2010 00:35 |
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Eerkik posted:I understand why this book gets so much hate, but I have to say that I enjoy it a lot. I just read it again yesterday and was captivated. Different strokes, I guess. The beginning of the year is going to be amazing. Rothfuss and Abercrombie are coming out with new poo poo, and Game of Thrones premiers on HBO in April.
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# ? Dec 15, 2010 04:40 |
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Hughmoris posted:The beginning of the year is going to be amazing. Rothfuss and Abercrombie are coming out with new poo poo, and Game of Thrones premiers on HBO in April. And Dust of Dreams.
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# ? Dec 15, 2010 07:29 |
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treeboy posted:im starting to feel like im either stupid or a bad person for really liking his book and eagerly anticipating a sequel Some people just seem that they go into books with the thought "ok, how can I bash this popular book to make myself seem like some iGenius." You and I read a story and realize that is exactly what it is. Although it seems that a lot of people get character developement mixed up with character arc.
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# ? Dec 16, 2010 05:48 |
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mabbott74 posted:Some people just seem that they go into books with the thought "ok, how can I bash this popular book to make myself seem like some iGenius." Or there's always the possibility we just didn't like the book.
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# ? Dec 16, 2010 06:06 |
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I'll toss my hat in with the dummies and say I love Name of The Wind and I can't wait for the sequel.
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# ? Dec 16, 2010 07:59 |
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mabbott74 posted:Some people just seem that they go into books with the thought "ok, how can I bash this popular book to make myself seem like some iGenius." Or there's always the possibility that we've taken literature/writing courses and can perform readings and analyses?
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# ? Dec 16, 2010 08:43 |
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mabbott74 posted:Some people just seem that they go into books with the thought "ok, how can I bash this popular book to make myself seem like some iGenius." This seems like kind of a silly thing to say. Criticism does not make it a terrible book; even Name's most adamant critics seem to admire its prose and structure. Accepting that not all books are for all people is a healthy attitude to have, same with recognizing that a good book can have flaws. I won't deny that some people do, in fact, go in a book ready to hate it. The whole fad of "angry critics" has basically assured this. However, I don't think that's what's going on here. I'd love to hear you go into arc vs. development, though.
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# ? Dec 16, 2010 11:37 |
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SaviourX posted:Or there's always the possibility that we've taken literature/writing courses and can perform readings and analyses? You have a history of making extremely smug observations about how poor the writing is in science fiction, typically with airs about how you, unlike everyone else, can actually appreciate what good writing is. Good for you, I guess, but your criticism of a genre that grew out of big ideas and pulp seems misplaced; while good writing and science fiction aren't anathema, the publishing pressure in the genre doesn't promote writing talent over other virtues. If it's such a problem for you that you feel obligated to restate it in thread after thread, perhaps you should stick with literary fiction.
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# ? Dec 16, 2010 15:34 |
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actually SaviourX inspired the patron saint of Fantasy Fiction, peep the sig if you don't believe me.mabbott74 posted:Some people just seem that they go into books with the thought "ok, how can I bash this popular book to make myself seem like some iGenius." You're wrong pretty much across the board, reading critically isn't "making myself seem like an iGenius" at all. And in fact what you are doing is trying to bring down critical reading because you don't do it and are insecure about it. You read shallowly and respond in the most childish way and then when other people have actual criticisms about what they read you are dismissive. Because you're an idiot. I've been extremely critical of this book in this thread. At the same time, I liked "the story" enough when I read it. The difference between me and you isn't that I can't appreciate the simple story like you can, it's that you are incapable of looking beyond that and are actually proud of it. ----------------
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# ? Dec 16, 2010 17:33 |
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Liesmith posted:actually SaviourX inspired the patron saint of Fantasy Fiction, peep the sig if you don't believe me. I think the initial assumption that he is incapable of critical reading isn't necessarily an accurate one. However it's quite possible that, like me, he chooses instead to forego the critical thinking and merely enjoy the story for what it is and nothing more. My personal experience and training is mostly in movie/cinematic storytelling but many of the concepts are (obviously) extremely similiar if not identical. I make an active effort not to over think entertainment unless I'm doing it for a specific purpose (i.e. improving my own work) sometimes it's fun to read something for no other purpose than enjoying the story, regardless of the quality. There was nothing outwardly offensive about his structure and the prose is beautiful, he ranks in my top 5 fantasy authors at the moment (assuming his new works are improvements which they hopefully should be)
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# ? Dec 16, 2010 18:00 |
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mabbott74 posted:Some people just seem that they go into books with the thought "ok, how can I bash this popular book to make myself seem like some iGenius." Have you ever considered that some readers/fans will enjoy some aspects of a work of art, while disliking other aspects? And then they will point out some of these defects, both to find if they bothered other viewers, and suggest future modifications by which a work could improve itself? Nah, they're just trolling to boost their e-cred, secretly they believe this book is the divine word of god and culmination of western civilization.
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# ? Dec 16, 2010 18:10 |
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quote:mabbott74 posted: I must have missed the forum rule where we aren't allowed to post unless we love everything about a subject and have no criticisms. Some of us are able to appreciate the novel while simultaneously thinking it is at times totally loving ridiculous. People tend to complain about things they like because they think it could be better. Maybe that's backseat driving and nonsense to you but it doesn't mean it's done with ill intent.
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# ? Dec 16, 2010 20:58 |
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You know, sometimes I go into a thread about a thing, a book or game or whatever, hoping to find other people in it who are just as excited about that thing as I am. Frequently, I do. Unfortunately, it seems like the people who go into a thread disliking a thing and hoping to convince other people to dislike it as well are inordinately represented. I realize this is because people who are happy about a thing don't really have that much to say about it besides "that thing where the guy did a thing was so cool!" "yeah i know!", and that people who criticize the work (whatever kind of work it is) actually get discussions started. These discussions definitely have merit in and of themselves, but I just came into the thread to see other people being happy about a thing that made me happy, and when I see people wrangling on and on about their conflicting opinions, it just makes me depressed. Carry on.
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# ? Dec 16, 2010 21:04 |
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Eh, people who think something's totally poo poo don't have any more to say than people who think it's totally great. The reason there was so much discussion going on here is that there's enough good for people to care about the poo poo. If it was Twilight or something we'd just have stopped reading after one chapter and not bothered posting anything. I think the reason me and a couple of others have been sperging so hard is that the writing's good enough to pull you in, so you're pretty invested in the whole thing when you gradually realise (I maintain) it's pretty substance-less. All our whingeing hasn't been us looking for stuff to complain about, it's the reaction of "wait, this never loving went anywhere".
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# ? Dec 16, 2010 22:29 |
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treeboy posted:sometimes it's fun to read something for no other purpose than enjoying the story, regardless of the quality. There was nothing outwardly offensive about his structure and the prose is beautiful, he ranks in my top 5 fantasy authors at the moment (assuming his new works are improvements which they hopefully should be) I totally understand this argument and empathized with it until i read about 20 pages of the transformers 2 thread in Cinema Discusso and saw it trotted out about five million to defend jive-shuckin' robots with TRUCK BALLSs, and realized it can be used to defend the indefensible. You can make the exact same argument in the Animorphs thread (with the exception of the prose, I guess, although at least those books probably don't refer to every loving shade of red as "hearts blood") In conclusion, "hey dude turn your brain off and just enjoy what was your favorite magic spell Kvothe cast ^__^" is a useless thing to post, thanks.
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# ? Dec 17, 2010 05:39 |
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The biggest problem I had with this book that we are constantly told that Kvothe is a genius, and yet his actions never actually reinforce it. He's always doing some damned stupid thing, falling for the most obvious of ruses from his "rivals," and generally being a twat. But it's okay, because the next paragraph is going to tell us how awesome he is. That's what really smart, awesome people do: Fall for obvious scams and then throw tantrums about it.
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# ? Dec 17, 2010 06:27 |
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treeboy posted:I think the initial assumption that he is incapable of critical reading isn't necessarily an accurate one. However it's quite possible that, like me, he chooses instead to forego the critical thinking and merely enjoy the story for what it is and nothing more. My personal experience and training is mostly in movie/cinematic storytelling but many of the concepts are (obviously) extremely similiar if not identical. I make an active effort not to over think entertainment unless I'm doing it for a specific purpose (i.e. improving my own work) I think the hostility towards any kind of criticism, even the pretty simple critical discussion we are having here, suggests to me that he's not able to read critically at all. He's totally dismissive of even really obvious criticisms like the fact that Kvothe is a douche who treats women badly and the fact that his being perfect at everything is a little dull. If you want to not read into things and just enjoy the adventure or whatever, that's fine. I don't think there's a ton of value for me in that but whatever floats your boat. I just took exception to that one dude's really childish post about how everyone in this thread was somehow mining for book barn cred because that is the only reason a person could complain about Patrick Rothfuss. uberkeyzer posted:I totally understand this argument and empathized with it until i read about 20 pages of the transformers 2 thread in Cinema Discusso and saw it trotted out about five million to defend jive-shuckin' robots with TRUCK BALLSs, and realized it can be used to defend the indefensible. You can make the exact same argument in the Animorphs thread (with the exception of the prose, I guess, although at least those books probably don't refer to every loving shade of red as "hearts blood") In conclusion, "hey dude turn your brain off and just enjoy what was your favorite magic spell Kvothe cast ^__^" is a useless thing to post, thanks. I love that the animorphs thread unironically has the word classic in the title.
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# ? Dec 17, 2010 14:34 |
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Velius posted:You have a history of making extremely smug observations about how poor the writing is in science fiction, typically with airs about how you, unlike everyone else, can actually appreciate what good writing is. loving sweet, after all this time someone finally noticed. I happen to like a lot of SF and fantasy (have you looked in the Mieville thread?), even the more questionable stories . What I cannot abide, tho, is loving lovely prose that apparently got past a team of agents, editors, and marketing staff, because it sells to folk like goons who don't care that they're reading something a 15-year old could write and tell people 'they just like to shut their mind off, man...' And I bring it up here because goons will gush expressly about how good the writing is in threads about novels with exactly those (and other) problems. I mean, I've never seen anyone from here wander into CC and participate in straight critique either, so I don't know why it's a surprise. Liesmith posted:Man, I don't even remember that dude or that thread. He apparently owns, though. And I don't think criticism or specific readings should be an elitist sort of thing either, just something people should do to really find out why they like something, what that thing is trying to say, whether they should paying money for it, and ultimately, to read things in a more challenging way than when they were younger. It seems like more of a societal thing anyway, that once you graduate you shouldn't want to read anything by putting any effort into it and should only read for fun because life's hard enough--which is counter-productive to the max.
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# ? Dec 18, 2010 00:11 |
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Sarchasm posted:The biggest problem I had with this book that we are constantly told that Kvothe is a genius, and yet his actions never actually reinforce it. He's always doing some damned stupid thing, falling for the most obvious of ruses from his "rivals," and generally being a twat. But it's okay, because the next paragraph is going to tell us how awesome he is. That's what really smart, awesome people do: Fall for obvious scams and then throw tantrums about it. He's a kid, dude. Kids do stupid things sometimes and then claim that they know everything. That is what happens when you are young.
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# ? Dec 18, 2010 00:41 |
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King Crab posted:He's a kid, dude. Kids do stupid things sometimes and then claim that they know everything. That is what happens when you are young. And he also does do things that demonstrate that he is very talented: earn his pipes on his first try with a broken instrument, gain admission and get the University to pay HIM tuition at an extremely young age, convince the faculty that he shouldn't be bothered to take beginners classes, KILL A DRAGON.
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# ? Dec 18, 2010 00:44 |
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Bizob posted:And he also does do things that demonstrate that he is very talented: earn his pipes on his first try with a broken instrument, gain admission and get the University to pay HIM tuition at an extremely young age, convince the faculty that he shouldn't be bothered to take beginners classes, KILL A DRAGON. He might be talented at music, bullshitting, dragonslaying and so on, but that doesn't mean he is 100% infallible. Everybody makes mistakes bro.
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# ? Dec 18, 2010 00:56 |
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Chaglby posted:I was still slightly interested in trying the book at some point even after the intro turned me off until I read the thread a while back in which someone stated the book is much better when you read it in the voice of Zapp Brannigan, which someone mentioned already. This was me, and I stand by it - there's one line in particular that I remember laughing so hard on the train that people were looking at me. It was something like: "Sometimes my mind is so clean and sharp I have to be careful not to cut myself." I couldn't write a more Branniganesque line if I tried. Kvothe is an insufferably smug protagonist and I can't believe people are trying to defend him by saying he's an unreliable narrator. He isn't. Old washed up Kvothe learns a complicated form of written language in two minutes flat while the man who invented it sits by astonished. He almost breaks his assistant's arm without realizing it because he's so cool and strong and badass and unaware of his own incredible strength. He isn't narrating these parts! This is a pretty strong indicator that Kvothe is a perfectly reliable narrator - I'm happy to be proven wrong though, so if anyone can provide any evidence of this besides all of the women in his story being beautiful I'd love to hear it. I was definitely able to see some merit in his writing style, which flowed well and created some good imagery - I liked some of his descriptions and ideas, but Kvothe sucks and Rothfuss definitely came across as a big fat goony goon with some of his themes whether he is aware of it or not - oh look, Kvothe is white knighting a girl in an abusive relationship and now she wants to sleep with him. Oh look, Kvothe is putting a bully in his place. Oh look, Kvothe's daddy is banging on for three pages about how proud he is of his son before dying tragically. Liesmith posted:I can't point to specific pages, but when he's dalking about Denna/Diana/Dean whatever her name is to his buddy, and his buddy is all "she a bitch" his response is goony as gently caress. "Yes, she is cruel, like a cruel wind, a force of nature that cannot be controlled. And she's also a shy deer, you can't make any sudden movements or she will be startled and run away. That's why I'm hanging around while she bangs other dudes, creeping slowly closer until one day we will be lovers instead of friends." There is even a paragraph where he revels in the fact that he's superior to all her lovers because they don't truly understand her like he does, and they come and go while he's always there for her. Oh god, that part. That's exactly how I felt as I read it, it was just so loving creepy and the part where he's having his smug inner monologue about how she belongs to him and once her boyfriend is out of the way he'll still be there made my skin crawl. He's the ultimate self-appointed "Nice Guy" McGoonygoon. Maybe it's more obvious to female readers, I don't know. I honestly do think Rothfuss has a talent for the written word and despite Kvothe I read and enjoyed some aspects of the book, but I really hope he learns some things about character development as he continues the series.
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# ? Dec 18, 2010 01:17 |
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King Crab posted:He might be talented at music, bullshitting, dragonslaying and so on, but that doesn't mean he is 100% infallible. Everybody makes mistakes bro. I think that's the problem. He does make mistakes, but he is 100% infallible. Everything that happens to him is either a trick of someone ugly and stupid who is just jealous of how awesome he is or is instantly reversed by...whatever. I was actually getting excited when Kvothe was expelled from university for (I think) setting the alchemy lab on fire. But then he was granted a full pardon on the very next page.
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# ? Dec 18, 2010 04:44 |
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http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/12/worth-waiting-for-patrick-rothfusss-the-wise-mans-fear Hey, book 2 is actually done and getting reviewed. Weird.
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# ? Dec 19, 2010 16:32 |
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Huh...It seems like he's addressing some of the things people in this thread are annoyed by. I'm excited.
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# ? Dec 19, 2010 22:20 |
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Some comments of my own. Regarding antagonists I don't quite understand why people complain that the biggest problem you're going to face when in school are rear end in a top hat teachers and rear end in a top hat students. It's obvious that these guys aren't the Big Bads of the series, and they fit the period of his life just fine. Also, they're about as realistically described as you could get. Have none of you ever had someone that you hated when you were 15? Wtf kind of character depth do you think you gave those people? As for his love "skills", he's an antisocial nerd, that never spent much time with any kids his own age that he didn't hate or who weren't filthy hobos. Also he's 15 and despite his overcompensating arrogance still obviously insecure about lots of things(just as he's obsessive about others). Finally this is the beginning of his life and story. I don't get the complaint that "nothing happened" at all. Was he supposed to find the things that killed his family and Harry Potter them to death? I don't have a problem with criticizing a book. I do have a problem with people that talk as if they are some literary authority espousing the absolute facts of writing. You've got your opinions and other people have theirs. And no this isn't the same thing as defending robot balls in Transformers. This is a case of someone saying Emperor of Dune is retarded because the protagonist is all-knowing and a giant worm and that's unrealistic, while people that like the book point out that a)it's science fiction and b)the character is flawed and believably constructed.
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# ? Dec 20, 2010 16:49 |
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# ? May 8, 2024 05:44 |
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Except as people have pointed out like a hundred times in this thread, it's not a fifteen year old writing, it's an actual adult. And when we zip back to the present nothing changes, he's still got the same ridiculous attitude towards the girl, still shocks and amazes people with his godlike intellect, still makes grown men poo poo themselves when his eyes flash with badassness or whatever. Look, we were all hoping it would be an interesting unreliable narrator story, and the kid's view of himself being totally amazing, everyone who doesn't like him being a bumbling cartoon villain, and all the creepy crap about the girl would get shown up. But that really never materialised. The adult version is exactly the same as the kid, and there's every indication that the author completely agrees with him. No one's complaining that they didn't like the concept, everyone's agreed that if done well the whole magical prodigy thing could be pretty cool. We're complaining about poor, one-dimensional characterisation, and while yes there's no accounting for taste, that's about as close to an objective criticism you can get.
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# ? Dec 20, 2010 19:21 |