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Another problem with Grievous is that his robot body seems to be better than Vader's, he seemed much more mobile and had extra arms. If he was meant to show failings of the becoming a cyborg process, his mildly annoying cough didn't seem too much of a big deal.
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Dec 29, 2010 14:33
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Plus, if your a big cyborg, but have to keep your lungs, which judging from your coughing are your only weakness, why would you leave that exposed?! Get some armor plating, then put armor plating on that armor plating, and then get one of those little force field generators the droidekas use. Then more armor plating. And I agree with the whole "Oh, in less than two decades everyone seems to have forgotten about the Jedi" thing. Like Han's little "I don't believe in some mystical force controlling my life." Umm...dude, you were alive when Jedi were all over the drat place using said force. Also Obi Wan aged horribly.
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Dec 29, 2010 15:14
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Starsnostars posted:Another problem with Grievous is that his robot body seems to be better than Vader's, he seemed much more mobile and had extra arms. If he was meant to show failings of the becoming a cyborg process, his mildly annoying cough didn't seem too much of a big deal. You know that's a good point. I wonder if Vader was ever pissed that his new body didn't get extra arms and the ability to spider climb up walls. DrBouvenstein posted:And I agree with the whole "Oh, in less than two decades everyone seems to have forgotten about the Jedi" thing. Han is the only part of that that actually works for me, though. I've talked about it in this thread before (which I shall shamelessly post again here because I can't think of a better way to say it), but it's not that Han doesn't know about Jedi. His issue is with the Force itself. Keep in mind, just because you've seen or heard about Jedi that move things with their minds, doesn't mean they have access to an all powerful life force that is the cause of all things in the universe. Think of the X-Men. These guys have mutations that let them have awesome powers. Can the people in their universe see that their powers exist? Sure. Do all those people assume that the mutants are Gods that understand the meaning of the universe? Of course not, they just have cool powers. You can believe that Jedi have powers beyond what normal people have, but you don't have to believe that the Jedi are right in their philosophy of where these powers come from. They could just have won the genetic lottery and be able to move things with their minds. It's like if someone honestly believes David Copperfield can fly. They're not sure how he does it, but they've seen it so it must be true. That doesn't necessarily mean they're going to start listening to him about his views on religion. (hopefully) Han may have seen Jedi use their powers, or heard about it from other people, but what he has issue with is that the Force is something that controls everything in the universe. That makes perfect sense to me. Same goes for the Imperial officer that talks back to Vader in that Death Star meeting room. Sure, he knows that Jedi (and Sith) have powers, but he's belittling those powers because they didn't stop the Jedi from being wiped out, and he feels that Vader being able to choke a guy from across the room means nothing when he can now blow up a planet. Neither he nor Han say, "You don't have powers beyond normal beings", they both just minimize the importance of the Force. But yeah, everything else that happened in those 18 years does seem bizarre.
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Dec 29, 2010 15:18
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spacemountain posted:The worst thing about Grevious is he explodes the mystique of the lightsaber once and for all. I disagree with this. Obi Wan crushes Grevious in the lightsaber fight. Just because I hold a samurai sword in 2 hands doesn't mean i am a equal samurai to others. thrawn527 posted:But yeah, everything else that happened in those 18 years does seem bizarre. Alexander the Great conquered most of the current world in 8 years. There are other examples of that happening. And Alexander doing that with the tech at hand is probably decently equivalent to conquering a universe with obviously much more high end tech. Plus with the clone wars i would bet a lot of the worlds would be damaged, weakened or even ready for any type of armistice/peace. Duckman2008 fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Dec 29, 2010 |
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Dec 29, 2010 16:08
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As stupid as ROTS and the prequels in general were, it still amazes me that they could have been worse. I remember reading in one "Making of..." book that early drafts of ROTS featured a kid Han Solo on Kashyyyk. 
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Dec 29, 2010 16:59
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DrBouvenstein posted:And I agree with the whole "Oh, in less than two decades everyone seems to have forgotten about the Jedi" thing. A while back in the thread this came up, and it was likened to the following analogy: If right now hockey was suddenly banned, in 18 years would no one remember or believe it ever existed? It's even more ludicrous when you realize that the president of the UN is a hockey goalie, and his right hand man is an old hockey mascot.
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Dec 29, 2010 17:18
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Propaganda is a powerful thing.
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Dec 29, 2010 17:25
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Admiral Goodenough posted:What's the official severed-hand count in all of the movies? And is there a story behind why that became such a popular thing to do? Let's see... One hand from Anakin in AoTC Two hands from Dooku in RoTS One hand from Grievous in RoTS One hand from Mace Windu in RoTS Two arms from Vader in RoTS One arm from that alien from the bar in ANH One hand from Luke in ESB One hand from Vader in RoTJ So that's ten by my count. Am I missing any?
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Dec 29, 2010 17:51
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Powered Descent posted:So that's ten by my count. Am I missing any?
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Dec 29, 2010 18:04
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Flagrant Abuse posted:Eleven; you missed Zam Wesell's hand in AotC. Good catch, thanks.
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Dec 29, 2010 18:09
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Kart Barfunkel posted:IMO the Marvel Star Wars comics are pretty much the only EU things that totally get the fun-western-space-fantasy Star Wars vibes completely right. Nah, I agree with you. They have a fun-whimsical pulpy feel. Most of the EU takes itself way too seriously. This is bad because most of it is horribly stupid. A big thing I've noticed when it comes to the enjoyability of something, tone makes all the difference. If it's utterly stupid and totally straight faced, it's a recipe for godawful. If it's utterly stupid but winks at the audience, it's good campy fun. The prequels and EU aren't whimsical. If anything, the prequels are a little pompous. You can almost hear Lucas saying "Ha! Check out that political allegory! I'm a genius!" Of course, the humor has to work, though. I'll give the Star Wars prequels and the second Transformers movie credit for at least trying to do this, even though they utterly failed and they were painfully unfunny. It's hard to describe in words, but everyone keeps going back to the fact that the Star Wars prequels have no heart and soul, and it really feels like that. It probably takes a few thousand words to articulate why that is, but they're just empty. There are tons movies that are way smarter and have way better writing than the original Star Wars trilogy, but they caught on because they are fun and entertaining. They're some of the most fun and entertaining films ever made. The prequels and EU fail utterly because they just aren't fun. Nobody wants brooding (and poorly written teenage fanfic level) melodrama (except for poor fanfic writing brooding teenagers). When I watch Star Wars I just want likable characters going on fun crazy adventures. The melodrama in the OT works because the characters are likable. Once the characters have won us over, then you can do that. Even though some pretty dark stuff happened in the first movie (Luke's aunt and uncle being murdered, Leia's entire planet getting blown up), I noticed the movie kind of ignored these things and instead focused on ragtag space pirates making sarcastic quips in the middle of firefights. It's mostly Lucas's fault as a writer and director, but Hayden Christensen is indeed loving horrible. Ewan McGregor, Natale Portman, Sam Jackson and especially Liam Neeson can all do way better than what they did in the prequels. It takes a special kind of suck to make Liam Neeson give a bad performance. The only really enjoyable performances from the prequels were Ewan McGregor and Ian McDiarmid in Episode 3. The Emperor is fantastic because he really hams it all up and chews the scenery, and Ewan was good in Ep 3 because he seemed to finally be having a little fun and doing a bit of an Alec Guinness impression. In the first movie he was barely even in it and spent the whole movie nagging. In the second, he was just fighting with Anakin the whole thing (though this is understandable as Anakin is a loving obnoxious bitch). For such "good friends" they really seem to have no chemistry and hate each other's guts. GET IN THE ROBOT fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Dec 29, 2010 |
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Dec 29, 2010 18:19
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Powered Descent posted:Good catch, thanks. I'm pretty sure Grievous lost two hands when fighting Obi-Wan, too.
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Dec 29, 2010 19:27
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The OT stands great on it's own. In fact any EU around that time frame usually feels out of place, ridiculous, or shoe-horned in. The PT on the other hand is terrible on it's own and needs the EU to flesh out and explain a bunch of poo poo in the movies that didn't make sense
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Dec 29, 2010 19:41
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Flagrant Abuse posted:Eleven; you missed Zam Wesell's hand in AotC. 12, if you include the Wampa's arm in ESB.
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Dec 29, 2010 20:06
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This is another one of those things, too, where you have an established villain in Dooku from the previous film. Rather than use him for later in the film in place of Grevious we instead chose to kill him off at the start. Lucas has problems cultivating secondary bad guys. The OT's popular baddies of Jabba, Fett, and Tarkin are all flukes, I guess, because none of that survives into the PT. Maul: He's really popular with the fans, one of the most memorable aspects of the PT, and he's killed off. Bounty Hunters: Pretty much they're all hyped up prior to the film, meet quick deaths or vanish. Dooku: Wow, this guy is a fallen Jedi, he might have something interesting to add to the plot that could parallel Anakin, or provide some sort of interesting counterpoint to the Jedi philosophy. Nope, just there to have a fight and get killed off, adding almost zero depth to the story. Grevious: Impressive looking bullshit, but still bullshit. Dooku could have had a LOT of room to build a story around and give some plot between he and Anakin, but that never happened. If nothing else, Dooku could have been and should have been a guy who was 'half-right' about things. He was well-intentioned, suspected something corrupt in the Senate, was attempting to fix the universes problems with himself at the helm, but ultimately fails. He shouldn't have been a mustache twirling villain, he should have been a guy who was doing what he was doing, had hesitations about it, desperately wanted his former allies to join him to serve the greater good, but would ultimately have to turn against them because they not only refused to help him, but actively stood against him.
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Dec 29, 2010 20:41
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JediTalentAgent posted:Dooku could have had a LOT of room to build a story around and give some plot between he and Anakin, but that never happened. If nothing else, Dooku could have been and should have been a guy who was 'half-right' about things. He was well-intentioned, suspected something corrupt in the Senate, was attempting to fix the universes problems with himself at the helm, but ultimately fails. He shouldn't have been a mustache twirling villain, he should have been a guy who was doing what he was doing, had hesitations about it, desperately wanted his former allies to join him to serve the greater good, but would ultimately have to turn against them because they not only refused to help him, but actively stood against him. This would have worked great, because it could have setup Anakin to have a similar story. After Dooku is killed, he could wonder whether he was right all along, and then follows down the same path, again, for the greater good.
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Dec 29, 2010 20:52
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HerzogZwo posted:12, if you include the Wampa's arm in ESB. Calaveron posted:I'm pretty sure Grievous lost two hands when fighting Obi-Wan, too. Both correct. We're up to thirteen. Any others? (Movies only here, I'm sure there are dozens more in the EU.) Edit: Correction, down to twelve. I just remembered Anakin's robot hand didn't get cut off at the end of RoTS. Powered Descent fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Dec 29, 2010 |
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Dec 29, 2010 21:09
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Powered Descent posted:Both correct. We're up to thirteen. Any others? (Movies only here, I'm sure there are dozens more in the EU.) Kind of a stretch, but you could make a case for C-3PO getting blown into pieces in ESB.
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Dec 29, 2010 22:12
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Here we go: 1 hand - Zam Wessel by Obi-Wan - AOTC 1 hand - Anakin by Dooku - AOTC 2 hands - Dooku by Anakin - ROTS 2 hands - Grevious by Obi-Wan 1 hand - Mace by Anakin - ROTS 1 hand - Anakin by Obi-Wan - ROTS 1 arm - C-3PO by some random Tusken Raider - ANH 1 arm - Alien in Cantina by Obi-Wan - ANH 1 arm - Wampa by Luke - ESB 1 hand - Luke by Vader - ESB 1 hand - Vader by Luke - ROTJ That brings the count to 13 hands/arms. Although C-3PO seemed to have his arm ripped out, not cut off, so count that if you wish or not.
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Dec 29, 2010 22:56
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Actually, another advantage the OT has over the PT is focusing more on characters and less on its spectacle around them, and usually managing a tighter plot. Look at the climatic scenes of TPM versus RotJ. Both feature a space battle based around a gigantic enemy craft, with a three-way duel by Force-users involving lightsabers going on, and a land battle involving cute aliens against faceless enemy ground troop legions. In RotJ, these are all connected, and each has multiple characters we care about working hard to achieve their goals. If the ground troops lose, the fleet will be wiped out. Whether or not that happens, Luke's in a terrible position--either he'll be tempted to the Dark Side, or the Death Star will be destroyed with him on it. And the fleet isn't just given flash; Ackbar and Lando's dialogue make it clear that things are getting tense, instead of simple special effects (which will always eventually look dated and can use a bit of a human touch to make them more personal). In TPM, they're all disconnected. I don't even recall why the Gungans really needed to care; they were honestly pretty much well away from anything the Trade Federation could do to them, and the only character here that we could even potentially associate with is Jar Jar, who we know isn't genuinely in any peril by how he's presented. No matter how the Darth Maul/Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan fight turned out, it was disconnected from the rest. Would the plot have been any different if Darth Maul wasn't even introduced? Only really Yoda talking at the end and Qui-Gon would have had to die some other way. And the space battle didn't really have a clear goal, either. The non-Anakin fighters... did they even have a goal besides "shoot everything"?
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Dec 29, 2010 23:08
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Thanks to whoever recommended the X-Wing books. Just finished reading The Bacta War, this poo poo is so dope 
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Dec 29, 2010 23:52
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ZeeToo posted:In TPM, they're all disconnected. I don't even recall why the Gungans really needed to care; they were honestly pretty much well away from anything the Trade Federation could do to them, and the only character here that we could even potentially associate with is Jar Jar, who we know isn't genuinely in any peril by how he's presented. No matter how the Darth Maul/Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan fight turned out, it was disconnected from the rest. Would the plot have been any different if Darth Maul wasn't even introduced? Only really Yoda talking at the end and Qui-Gon would have had to die some other way. And the space battle didn't really have a clear goal, either. The non-Anakin fighters... did they even have a goal besides "shoot everything"? If they concentrated entirely on infiltrating the building where those two Not-Asian aliens were hanging out they wouldn't have needed to do anything else.
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Dec 30, 2010 00:32
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In regards to all this crazy stuff just happening in 19 years, I really don't see anything wrong with it. I mean, it's not like Palpatine rounded up some stormtroopers and took over the galaxy planet by planet; he converted the standing Republic, which had a very substantial political and military infrastructure in place across thousands of worlds, into the Empire. Presumably, most citizens didn't even notice/care about the change for a few years. The people who would be most sensitive to the atrocities of the Empire would be their victims who, naturally, did not have much in the way of vocal representation. The Senate is still in place until about 30 minutes into ANH, so even though the politicians didn't run the show, they were still kept in position and clearly didn't raise a stink except for Mon Mothma's and Bail Organa's faction, who were known as anti-federalist rabble-rousers all through the Clone Wars and could easily be demonized in the state-controlled media. As far as people forgetting about Jedi, we have to remind ourselves of the scope of the universe. At it's height, the Jedi Order had what, 10,000 people in it? That's in a galaxy of trillions (at least). Even during the Clone Wars, when the Jedi were the most spread out, they were focused only on military or diplomatic objectives. It's fair to assume that the majority of people in the Galaxy had never seen a Jedi, and probably were only vaguely aware of what one was because of war reports/legends. If you follow this with almost two decades of Jedi being completely absent (and again, a state-controlled, heavily-regulated media), it's easy to see how most folks wouldn't really give a second thought to what a Jedi was or how it affects them.
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Dec 30, 2010 00:34
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DrBouvenstein posted:Also Obi Wan aged horribly. Tatooine will do that to ya. Dry, sandy planet isn't good for the skin.
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Dec 30, 2010 01:28
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tin can made man posted:In regards to all this crazy stuff just happening in 19 years, I really don't see anything wrong with it. I mean, it's not like Palpatine rounded up some stormtroopers and took over the galaxy planet by planet; he converted the standing Republic, which had a very substantial political and military infrastructure in place across thousands of worlds, into the Empire. That makes sense on one hand. On the other hand, they're loving super-heroes. Real ones! (In context) Even if there was six of them they'd be constantly fawned over.
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Dec 30, 2010 01:42
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Not to mention that even a 10 year old slave living on a hutt-controlled planet located in the rear end in a top hat of the galaxy had heard of the Jedi and their signature weapon.
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Dec 30, 2010 01:58
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tin can made man posted:In regards to all this crazy stuff just happening in 19 years, I really don't see anything wrong with it. I mean, it's not like Palpatine rounded up some stormtroopers and took over the galaxy planet by planet; he converted the standing Republic, which had a very substantial political and military infrastructure in place across thousands of worlds, into the Empire. This line of thought brings up a question in my mind. Sorry to keep asking this, but I'm not quite a hardcore Star Wars fan but I always found all world depicted in it cool and full of awesome potential most of the time. Now with that post, I have to wonder...are there any stories that focus on people not really apart of the heroes group? Like what was life like during their Empire's rule? What were some of the more mundane things that went on in the universe away from laser fire?
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Dec 30, 2010 02:02
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WampaLord posted:Tatooine will do that to ya. Dry, sandy planet isn't good for the skin. That and the copius amount of booze. I always mentally replace Owens line in A New Hope with 'that crazy old wizard' with drunk at the end.
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Dec 30, 2010 02:37
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Metal Massacre posted:This line of thought brings up a question in my mind. Sorry to keep asking this, but I'm not quite a hardcore Star Wars fan but I always found all world depicted in it cool and full of awesome potential most of the time. Now with that post, I have to wonder...are there any stories that focus on people not really apart of the heroes group? Like what was life like during their Empire's rule? What were some of the more mundane things that went on in the universe away from laser fire? I always think about this as well, and it also gives rise to one of what I believe the worst additions Jorge made in the Special Editions of the OT. After the battle in ROTJ they show a mini montage of everyone on planets that we have see throughout the series celebrating the fall of the Empire. The problem I have with this is that we never see any real oppression. The only real thing would be fear of the Death Star pulling a drive by on your planet, as that is the only really despicable act we see the Empire committing against its populace. As far as we know, nothing changed for the everyman when Palpy took over, we are just supposed to assume they were oppressed because the Empire is "evil." It just seems out of place to have everyone celebrating when we are never shown a real example of how they are being treated.
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Dec 30, 2010 02:37
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JediTalentAgent posted:This is another one of those things, too, where you have an established villain in Dooku from the previous film. Rather than use him for later in the film in place of Grevious we instead chose to kill him off at the start. Maul and Fett aren't even good characters. They are just popular with more shallow fans who like them because they look cool. Count Dooku was such a waste of Christopher Lee. If done right, Dooku would have made an amazing main villain. In many ways, Darth Vader was very Dracula-esque, what with his commanding presence, big flowing cape and aristocratic gravitas. Christopher Lee was arguably the 2nd best Dracula (him or Gary Oldman). George even knew this and even called the guy Count Dooku. I know this sounds stupid, but really, imagine Dracula as the big baddie Sith Lord of the prequel trilogy. Star Wars is so big on making homages to classic films it would totally fit in. Just call him something different, get rid of the bloodsucking and changing into a bat, but keep him as a classy yet creepy villain. Darth Vader is basically Dracula with a mask and a breathing problem. While he was named Count Dooku, played by Christopher Lee and wore a Dracula costume, Dooku wasn't all that Dracula\Darth Vader like. He was more of a weak old man who wasn't at all intimidating and barely had any consequence. In ESB, Vader was scary. Everybody cowered in his presence. He killed anyone who annoyed him even slightly. He kicked our hero's rear end without even putting much effort into it. Vader and the Empire worked so well as villains because they seemed completely unstoppable. People love rooting for the underdog. Maul, Jango & Boba Fett, Dooku, Grevious and the droids all get owned with barely any effort from the heroes. There was absolutely no suspense. Not that it would matter, because we as an audience didn't give a poo poo about the characters to begin with, but it's yet another flaw.
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Dec 30, 2010 03:10
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The Jedi were pretty popular, especially during the Clone Wars. You can't tell me you've all forgotten about Jedi! The Musical. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi!
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Dec 30, 2010 04:08
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NeonTurtle posted:Not to mention that even a 10 year old slave living on a hutt-controlled planet located in the rear end in a top hat of the galaxy had heard of the Jedi and their signature weapon. And that was before Anakin and Obi-Wan became interstellar celebrities.
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Dec 30, 2010 04:27
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I just got the first two Marvel comics Omnibus. Loving it so much. When I get a few extra bucks I'm changing my avatar to this though. Any ideas what I should have for text under it?
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Dec 30, 2010 05:50
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ThatWhiteGuy posted:I always think about this as well, and it also gives rise to one of what I believe the worst additions Jorge made in the Special Editions of the OT. After the battle in ROTJ they show a mini montage of everyone on planets that we have see throughout the series celebrating the fall of the Empire. The problem I have with this is that we never see any real oppression. The only real thing would be fear of the Death Star pulling a drive by on your planet, as that is the only really despicable act we see the Empire committing against its populace. As far as we know, nothing changed for the everyman when Palpy took over, we are just supposed to assume they were oppressed because the Empire is "evil." It just seems out of place to have everyone celebrating when we are never shown a real example of how they are being treated. But that's what I've been trying to tell you! Throb Robinson posted:When I get a few extra bucks I'm changing my avatar to this though. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! *wheeze wheeze*
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Dec 30, 2010 05:59
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Throb Robinson posted:I just got the first two Marvel comics Omnibus. Loving it so much. When I get a few extra bucks I'm changing my avatar to this though. "This is how I'll die."
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Dec 30, 2010 06:20
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The dialogue in the Empire duel is perfect. Particularly this exchange of words. "Your destiny lies with me Skywalker. Obi Wan knew this to be true." "No" Its just one word and it says all it needs to about how scared Luke is and how much he hates Vader. Same goes for "you'll find I'm full of surprises" JihadforChrist fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Dec 30, 2010 |
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Dec 30, 2010 07:41
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JihadforChrist posted:The dialogue in the Empire duel is perfect. Particularly this exchange of words. The fight and dialogue between Luke and Vader on Cloud City is one of favorite parts of the original trilogy. Its really intense on a lot of levels.
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Dec 30, 2010 07:51
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JihadforChrist posted:The dialogue in the Empire duel is perfect. Particularly this exchange of words. Compare this with "My powers have doubled since the last time we met, Count" "Good. Twice the pride, double the fall!" and "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" but no gently caress that there are no trilogies only the saga 6 movies 1 story
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Dec 30, 2010 09:08
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For all the fan rage The Force Unleashed 2 generated, I will say the way Vader fights at 5:55 is pretty neat to watch, as it's a logical extrapolation to how a slow-moving swordfighter could work. (MASSIVE spoilers for the entire TFU 2 storyline endings, light and dark.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBa7n_a-vSc In any case, what's the official explanation as to why Vader desired to freeze Luke instead of capturing him regularly?
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Dec 30, 2010 09:13
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Kwatz posted:The fight and dialogue between Luke and Vader on Cloud City is one of favorite parts of the original trilogy. Its really intense on a lot of levels. I am the same way, the dialogue alone is way more interesting than any other lightsaber duel from any part of the series, except for perhaps Obi Wan and Vader in ANH. On a depressing note, Irvin Kershner died on my birthday this year. I guess I should rejoice that he is one with the force. If anyone associated with those movies was a luminous being it was definitely Kershner.
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Dec 30, 2010 09:15
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