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I know I'm in the minority on this, but I rather liked the storyline of TFU. For some reason, despite the over-the-top force powers and the retconning of Starkiller into being so important to the franchise, it felt more like a Star Wars movie than the prequels did. ...Or the prequels set the bar so low that I can't tell anymore.
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Dec 30, 2010 09:22
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JediTalentAgent posted:
I think this is the only acceptable reason for liking TFU.
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Dec 30, 2010 09:31
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In a way, the prequels were so lackluster that TFU's over the top nature IS more "Star Wars" in its presentation.
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Dec 30, 2010 09:33
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Mister Roboto posted:
Capturing and then locking up someone who can leap long distances, telekinetically move/manipulate objects at at a distance, influence the minds of guards, and be prescient enough to knock blaster bolts out of the air is probably not a very good idea. Keeping them in stasis (in this case via freezing) would be the only logical way to do it.
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Dec 30, 2010 10:06
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They could have just shoved Luke in a steel box and threw him in a cargo hold where nobody hangs out.
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Dec 30, 2010 13:31
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ThatWhiteGuy posted:I always think about this as well, and it also gives rise to one of what I believe the worst additions Jorge made in the Special Editions of the OT. After the battle in ROTJ they show a mini montage of everyone on planets that we have see throughout the series celebrating the fall of the Empire. The problem I have with this is that we never see any real oppression. The only real thing would be fear of the Death Star pulling a drive by on your planet, as that is the only really despicable act we see the Empire committing against its populace. As far as we know, nothing changed for the everyman when Palpy took over, we are just supposed to assume they were oppressed because the Empire is "evil." It just seems out of place to have everyone celebrating when we are never shown a real example of how they are being treated. While I agree that the closing montage to ROTJ in the Special Edition is unnecessary and out of place, it's not like the galaxy was shown to be a good place when the Empire was in charge. In ANH hope you see three big examples of this. First off, yes, there's the Death Star. This shouldn't be minimized. The Empire can, at any time, show up at your planet and wipe out everything you've ever known. All the people, history, places, and culture associated with your whole life, gone in a flash. It's like an instant Holocaust. And they've done it before, so it's a real threat. Second, the Emperor dissolved the Senate. So what one day was a government run by duly elected officials of the people, is now run by appointed cronies of a scarred old wizard. If tomorrow, Obama were to somehow make Congress not exist and instead had his appointees in charge of everything that happened in your state, you better believe there'd be uprisings. (Please no edgy comments about how he's already done this, just trying to make a point.) Especially if the reason he could do it was a giant gently caress-off weapon that scared the poo poo out of you, as mentioned above. The people's voice was silenced. Thirdly, when the Empire is looking for the droids, they burned Owen and Beru Lars to death. It's not out of the question to assume that this kind of thing happened more than just that once, and that lots of people knew other people who had disappeared in the middle of the night, or been found killed under suspicious circumstances. Beyond the movies itself, you find the Empire to be a highly xenophobic organization, enslaving entire alien races. But that wasn't mentioned in the movies, so we can really stick with those first three points. It's perfectly understandable from just those three that the average citizen of the Empire might feel like they're living in an oppressive government, and it's all shown in ANH. thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Dec 30, 2010 |
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Dec 30, 2010 15:25
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ThatWhiteGuy posted:It just seems out of place to have everyone celebrating when we are never shown a real example of how they are being treated. It also makes no sense because there is still an Empire. Palpatine must have had lots of higher-ups and cronies that he kept in charge of critical places, and I imagine Coruscant especially would have lots of them. Not to mention generals, admirals, and such that weren't at the Death Star battle (I know the best EU trilogy deals with Grand Admiral Thrawn, but there must have been more than just him, right?) I mean...if the empire is apparently so weak that the instant the Emperor dies, everyone everywhere is free to celebrate about it, he must have had a pretty lovely control of the situation in the first place. I mean, if Kim Jong-Il was on some weird military mission and got killed, North Korea wouldn't suddenly be free with people dancing in the street, there would be a power struggle and some general or relative of him would be in charge.
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Dec 30, 2010 16:52
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DrBouvenstein posted:It also makes no sense because there is still an Empire. Palpatine must have had lots of higher-ups and cronies that he kept in charge of critical places, and I imagine Coruscant especially would have lots of them. Not to mention generals, admirals, and such that weren't at the Death Star battle (I know the best EU trilogy deals with Grand Admiral Thrawn, but there must have been more than just him, right?) This is a much better point, and really why the end of ROTJ SE doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
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Dec 30, 2010 16:58
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DrBouvenstein posted:It also makes no sense because there is still an Empire. Palpatine must have had lots of higher-ups and cronies that he kept in charge of critical places, and I imagine Coruscant especially would have lots of them. Not to mention generals, admirals, and such that weren't at the Death Star battle (I know the best EU trilogy deals with Grand Admiral Thrawn, but there must have been more than just him, right?) BUT BUT BUT The Empire was using LEVEL 40 BATTLE MEDITATIONTM to keep them all pacifi... _________________________________/  I HATE THE EU.
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Dec 30, 2010 17:03
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thrawn527 posted:While I agree that the closing montage to ROTJ in the Special Edition is unnecessary and out of place, it's not like the galaxy was shown to be a good place when the Empire was in charge. In ANH hope you see three big examples of this. First off, yes, there's the Death Star. This shouldn't be minimized. The Empire can, at any time, show up at your planet and wipe out everything you've ever known. All the people, history, places, and culture associated with your whole life, gone in a flash. It's like an instant Holocaust. And they've done it before, so it's a real threat. I wasn't trying to diminish the significance of the Death Star. But think about it. Nobody really knew about the Death Star; Han didn't, and if anyone would have heard about it would be him (as he himself states). Chances are the general public were not even aware of until after it was destroyed so it had little affect on them. I also don't like your second point about the Senate being dissolved. I hate to use the PT as evidence, but the Senate was already a horribly corrupt and ineffective form of government, so who knows if the new Empire was actually worse or more oppressive (obviously it was, but would the everyman really notice any change?). Also military atrocities are not limited to evil empires; check the news any day and you probably see news of some American soldiers committing war crimes in Afghanistan. This doesn't necessarily make the US oppressive, it could just mean they have soldiers acting like assholes. Also gently caress everything in the EU, as far as I am concerned the movies are the only canon.
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Dec 30, 2010 17:17
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ThatWhiteGuy posted:I wasn't trying to diminish the significance of the Death Star. But think about it. Nobody really knew about the Death Star; Han didn't, and if anyone would have heard about it would be him (as he himself states). Chances are the general public were not even aware of until after it was destroyed so it had little affect on them. They might not have heard about it until it was destroyed, but they sure as gently caress would have heard about the destruction of Alderaan. And in the mind of most people, what would stop them from making another? (Clearly nothing, as they immediately began making another) The threat of living under a government that has no issue with destroying a planet (and has already done so) would be ever present. Our Congress now is currently corrupt as hell, and very little gets done there. But if a President would dissolve Congress and declare himself supreme ruler, how would you feel? And don't forget, Tarkin mentioned that "Fear will keep them in line." Clearly that means the Empire wasn't handing out government cheese to keep people happy. The plan was to have people scared shitless as a way of controlling them. Even without the Death Star anymore (for a period of time) they still had massive Star Destroyers, that were so beyond overkill that fear is the only thing that justifies their size. You do make a point about the military atrocities, but if you lived in an area that experienced these atrocities, it might be hard to distinguish between "soldiers acting like assholes" and the Empire itself. And would then be happy when that Empire is taken out.
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Dec 30, 2010 17:25
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DrBouvenstein posted:It also makes no sense because there is still an Empire. Palpatine must have had lots of higher-ups and cronies that he kept in charge of critical places, and I imagine Coruscant especially would have lots of them. Not to mention generals, admirals, and such that weren't at the Death Star battle (I know the best EU trilogy deals with Grand Admiral Thrawn, but there must have been more than just him, right?) Well, according to Iron Fist, the thing on Coruscant was the result of the news of the victory at Endor being broadcast uncensored over the HoloNet thanks to the work of slicers in the employ of a rebel faction unaffiliated with the Alliance. During the gathering a bunch of people pulled down a statue of Palpatine, then stormtroopers showed up and started firing into the crowd. Or course the simpler explanation is that Jorge is dumb. Take your pick I guess.
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Dec 30, 2010 17:35
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thrawn527 posted:They might not have heard about it until it was destroyed, but they sure as gently caress would have heard about the destruction of Alderaan. And in the mind of most people, what would stop them from making another? (Clearly nothing, as they immediately began making another) The threat of living under a government that has no issue with destroying a planet (and has already done so) would be ever present. Just a couple more points. Considering it only took the Rebels ONE battle to take out the Death Star, chances are the Empire wouldn't be frothing at the mouth spend more time and resources to build another one when the first paid little dividends. Again, I say this from the viewpoint of someone in the galaxy. I also don't think your comparison of Space Politics to our own government. Obama would have a tough time getting into the kind of power Palpy had. So much that it is cartoonish to imagine it happening. It's not like Obama can lead a Civil War against himself to gain more power. The whole thought is retarded. And the whole thing about the storm troopers and Uncle Owen is an isolated case, at least I would think so. It's not like the troops just went in and hosed them up for no reason. These people were hiding information that was a threat to national security, its not like they were just minding their own business, at least not in the eyes of the Empire. Not saying I agree with the methods used, but I don't think you can use that as evidence for other atrocities.
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Dec 30, 2010 17:54
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ThatWhiteGuy posted:Just a couple more points. Considering it only took the Rebels ONE battle to take out the Death Star, chances are the Empire wouldn't be frothing at the mouth spend more time and resources to build another one when the first paid little dividends. Again, I say this from the viewpoint of someone in the galaxy. Hey dude you know you're playing apologist for literal space nazis right? (But really though, 'TIE Fighter' is really one of the best games ever, and I'm a sucker for the Imperial hardware)
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Dec 30, 2010 18:39
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ThatWhiteGuy posted:Just a couple more points. Considering it only took the Rebels ONE battle to take out the Death Star, chances are the Empire wouldn't be frothing at the mouth spend more time and resources to build another one when the first paid little dividends. Again, I say this from the viewpoint of someone in the galaxy. Here's the thing, though. In the movie we're never shown the Empire being good to the people of the galaxy or having the shuttles run on time, as it were. What we do see is the Empire destroying a planet, dissolving the Senate, and burning people alive. We hear Luke say he hates the Empire. That's really about all the movies could have done to show us that the Empire was evil, and that the man on the street (in this case Luke) sees them as such. I'm not sure what else the movies could have done to get this point across without showing large groups of people in shackles building a monument to Palpatine while getting whipped by Stormtroopers. To say that the people would see the Empire as evil is using what we're shown. To say that the people of the Empire wouldn't really see much difference between being under the Empire or the Republic is to assume quite a bit that we are not shown. And I know that the EU doesn't really count in this discussion, but I feel it's important to point out that the Empire enslaved whole populations, such as the Wookiees. This goes a bit further than just the EU, since it is the official back story of Chewie, with him being freed from slavery by Han. If you were an alien in the Empire, your life sucked. Slavery and genocide on a massive scale would make anyone feel their government is oppressive.
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Dec 30, 2010 19:26
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thrawn527 posted:And I know that the EU doesn't really count in this discussion, but I feel it's important to point out that the Empire enslaved whole populations, such as the Wookiees. This goes a bit further than just the EU, since it is the official back story of Chewie, with him being freed from slavery by Han. If you were an alien in the Empire, your life sucked. Slavery and genocide on a massive scale would make anyone feel their government is oppressive. Because the Mon Calamari enslaving Quarren, robbing them of their culture and running residential schools is completely and totally OK?
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Dec 30, 2010 21:11
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Since Palpatine set up the Empire to give the galaxy a fighting chance against the Yuuzhan Vong, it makes him more like Space Abraham Lincoln than Space Hitler. Timothy Zahn is a lot of fun, really.
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Dec 30, 2010 21:20
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Mad Hamish posted:Because the Mon Calamari enslaving Quarren, robbing them of their culture and running residential schools is completely and totally OK? Someone else doing something wrong does not make it right for other people to do it. I am making no judgments about the Mon Calamari. To the Quarren, they are oppressive. To most of the galaxy, the Empire is oppressive.
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Dec 30, 2010 21:25
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Kemper Boyd posted:Since Palpatine set up the Empire to give the galaxy a fighting chance against the Yuuzhan Vong, it makes him more like Space Abraham Lincoln than Space Hitler. Timothy Zahn is a lot of fun, really. Given that his Empire had the foresight to place the auxilary control systems for the Executor almost right behind the main bridge (I think this was discussed several pages back here, though Wookiepedia just mentions the crew in the auxiliary control center being unable to regain control), I doubt they would have faired too well against them. Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Dec 30, 2010 |
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Dec 30, 2010 21:33
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We see more examples of Empire oppression in the original trilogy. Storm troopers stop and question people on the street, demanding papers on droids. Han has to avoid 'imperial entanglements' because they board freighters looking for contraband (whatever that might be). Cloud City has to run beneath Imperial radar just to operate independently, and we understand later why Lando needs to do things that way (and actually the clean white modern interior suggests that by staying out from under Imperial interference, Cloud City is an oasis of prosperity in a galaxy that is otherwise decaying and worn out). And yet mobsters like Jabba are allowed to prosper, apparently without interference by the police or government. Even on Endor, the Ewoks (presumably) already hate the Empire, even though they've just got a little outpost. They're ready to throw lives away attacking them with only a little prompting (and, OK, their shiny metal god telling them to I guess?) For me it's not implausible based on just the OT to understand the Empire is bad and oppresive, because we see examples of pretty much every non-Empire character doing their best to avoid them, if not actively working for the Rebellion. What irks about the final scene additions to RotJ is that they're fake-looking, the music sucks rear end, apparently people have fireworks-launchers sitting around waiting to be shot from their spaceships, and there's zero explanation or display of the oppressive Empire's infrastructure so completely collapsing. It would have been so easy to show storm-troopers on other planets being attacked by mobs, Imperial military leaders being led away in handcuffs, a scene in the Senate with senators once again taking their seats to debate and discuss things - a ten-second montage showing some evidence of the full collapse of the power structure or rise of a new organization. That'd give the people on every world a reason to go outside and cheer. As with most of my objections to George's work on star wars since Jedi first came out, it comes down to not just the bad decisions he made but how easily and simply they could have been rectified with really just minor changes. It's clearly the sort of stuff that the other people he worked with did, on the original trilogy - especially his ex-wife, who convinced him to make numerous changes to A New Hope while they were shooting and editing it together. Just simple changes, a few scenes re-written, a few characters re-purposed or given more recognizable motivations. You might not wind up with a prequel trilogy that was as good as the original trilogy, but at least it didn't have to be so utterly, irredeemably fuckawful.
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Dec 30, 2010 21:44
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Kemper Boyd posted:Since Palpatine set up the Empire to give the galaxy a fighting chance against the Yuuzhan Vong, it makes him more like Space Abraham Lincoln than Space Hitler. Timothy Zahn is a lot of fun, really. This is the stupidest thing I have ever read. Seriously, one-up-manship at it's worst. The GCW should have been the biggest conflict in the galaxy, but instead we need to keep upping the ante in a misguided attempt to keep marketing Star Wars to us. It's such a rich universe, there could me thousands of smaller more interesting stories to tell instead of just making everything bigger and more intense.
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Dec 30, 2010 21:52
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Nucleic Acids posted:Given that his Empire had the foresight to place the auxilary control systems for the Executor almost right behind the main bridge (I think this was discussed several pages back here, though Wookiepedia just mentions the crew in the auxiliary control center being unable to regain control), I doubt they would have faired too well against them. I said that. That was a joke; not any level of canon. Kinda telling that it was believable, though...
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Dec 30, 2010 21:56
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ThatWhiteGuy posted:chances are the Empire wouldn't be frothing at the mouth spend more time and resources to build another one when the first paid little dividends. Again, I say this from the viewpoint of someone in the galaxy. What exactly is the ceiling where time and resources spent becomes infeasible when the end goal is "literally the complete destruction of an entire planet"? tin can made man fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Dec 30, 2010 |
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Dec 30, 2010 22:00
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ZeeToo posted:I said that. That was a joke; not any level of canon.  I guess that would have been a bit too much for them.But I'm still not so sure they would have faired any better.
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Dec 30, 2010 22:01
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ZeeToo posted:I said that. That was a joke; not any level of canon. It's actually less ridiculous than 90% of actual canon, however. I'd sooner believe that than anything that happened in the Holiday Special.
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Dec 30, 2010 22:05
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Nucleic Acids posted:doubt they would have faired too well against them. Well, at least the Empire wasn't stupid enough to let Mr High Treason Borsk Fey'lya to run for office. That's always something.
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Dec 30, 2010 22:27
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From the RLM forums. I screen-shotted it to keep his emoticons in there.
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Dec 30, 2010 23:48
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My resolution for 2011 is to say "So dense" as much as possible.
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Dec 31, 2010 01:22
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Directorman posted:Hey dude you know you're playing apologist for literal space nazis right? No I'm not, I'm criticizing Jorge for a scene that is out of place and unnecessary.
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Dec 31, 2010 02:31
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thrawn527 posted:And don't forget, Tarkin mentioned that "Fear will keep them in line." Clearly that means the Empire wasn't handing out government cheese to keep people happy. The plan was to have people scared shitless as a way of controlling them. Even without the Death Star anymore (for a period of time) they still had massive Star Destroyers, that were so beyond overkill that fear is the only thing that justifies their size. I'm honestly surprised it took you this long to mention this. Really, the whole point of Tarkin's presence in ANH was to serve as the embodiment of Imperial evil. He is one of the highest ranking officers in the Empire; poo poo, he even tells Vader what to do. When he says "fear will keep the local systems in line", that's not rhetoric. That's company policy.
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Dec 31, 2010 02:36
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Doctor Reynolds posted:They could have just shoved Luke in a steel box and threw him in a cargo hold where nobody hangs out. Just gives him more time to meditate, leveling up his psychic powers, until Leia escapes and can dowse him out. Leia gets captured by the Empire in each movie, doesn't she? I can't believe I never noticed that.
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Dec 31, 2010 03:22
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Jerk McJerkface posted:From the RLM forums. I screen-shotted it to keep his emoticons in there.
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Dec 31, 2010 03:22
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Do they ever use telescopes in the EU? Has Wedge or Luke ever re-watched their bad-rear end space fights or anybody ever tricked Leia into looking in a telescope only to see Alderaan blow up again?
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Dec 31, 2010 03:40
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bad news brown posted:Do they ever use telescopes in the EU? Has Wedge or Luke ever re-watched their bad-rear end space fights or anybody ever tricked Leia into looking in a telescope only to see Alderaan blow up again? That's actually a really great twist to space stories with FTL ships. Why should there ever be a mystery about what happened at any given location in space? Just warp/hyperspace the appropriate distance and watch events unfold. Who needs the force to see friends long gone when you can hire the equivalent of a space taxi to take you a few parsecs to watch your favorite moments together?
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Dec 31, 2010 04:38
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Derek Dominoe posted:That's actually a really great twist to space stories with FTL ships. Why should there ever be a mystery about what happened at any given location in space? Just warp/hyperspace the appropriate distance and watch events unfold. Who needs the force to see friends long gone when you can hire the equivalent of a space taxi to take you a few parsecs to watch your favorite moments together?
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Dec 31, 2010 04:43
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Derek Dominoe posted:That's actually a really great twist to space stories with FTL ships. Why should there ever be a mystery about what happened at any given location in space? Just warp/hyperspace the appropriate distance and watch events unfold. Who needs the force to see friends long gone when you can hire the equivalent of a space taxi to take you a few parsecs to watch your favorite moments together? Because involving time travel in any sci-fi franchise is a recipe for disaster because it either becomes 1. a pointless gimick or 2. Godlike power which means the heroes are never challenged enough for there to be any real tension.
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Dec 31, 2010 04:44
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omgLerkHat! posted:Because involving time travel in any sci-fi franchise is a recipe for disaster because it either becomes 1. a pointless gimick or 2. Godlike power which means the heroes are never challenged enough for there to be any real tension.
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Dec 31, 2010 04:48
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I think the auxiliary bridge on the Executor being in a stupid place is probably KDY's fault. Of course, considering what we've seen of KDY's management in the EU, I don't think we can really be surprised by that. Seriously, I'd bury the bridge somewhere in the bowels of the ship, and tell everyone that the bridge was in that tower thingy. And what would actually be in the tower thingy is the cells for political prisoners or something, I don't know.Kemper Boyd posted:Well, at least the Empire wasn't stupid enough to let Mr High Treason Borsk Fey'lya to run for office. That's always something. This. One thousand times, this.
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Dec 31, 2010 05:04
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Jerk McJerkface posted:From the RLM forums. I screen-shotted it to keep his emoticons in there. I bet most of us will leave that review thinking ROTS is the worst of the prequel trilogy. More and more I've had the gnawing feeling that as hideously awful as it was, TPM was actually the Star-Warsiest of the prequels.
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Dec 31, 2010 07:09
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I hope that fan-edit guy, Magnolia, finally finishes his edits and shows them. I'm curious to see the results.
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Dec 31, 2010 10:34
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