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Gammatron 64 posted:Does Lucas hate the original movies that much and like the Prequels so much more? The answer to this is honestly "yes".
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Jan 4, 2011 03:36
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Jerk McJerkface posted:The problem is that the prequels didn't have any characters... Yeah. For the most part. What's amusing is the only actual characters with personality were Palpatine and... Jar Jar. Jar Jar was obnoxious and annoying and horribly unfunny but at least he had a personality... of sorts. Bene Elim posted:I've been watching the Plinkett reviews and I've gotten to wondering how the prequels could have been written. Has anyone ever tried a fundamental re-writing? Not just making the lines or stage direction suck less, but completely changing the plot and basis of the characters? The idea gets tossed around here every once and a while, but nobody has actually done it because it's practically fanfiction. Basically, the general consensus is to more or less skip Episode I entirely and make episodes II and III into a trilogy. Start in media res during the Clone Wars, Anakin is teenager \ young adult already, Anakin is more of a Han Solo type character, smug, cocky, wisecracking. Less political poo poo. Anakin is legitimately seduced by the Dark Side and tempted by its power. He isn't "tricked" into turning to the Dark Side by Palpatine, he chooses to to fuel his own hunger for power. I've heard these things mentioned a lot, and pretty much everybody agrees with them, myself included. Other ideas that have been tossed about include: *The clones aren't the good guys. They are the Mandalorians, who are the baddies in the Clone Wars and attacking the republic. *Just like in the originals, the Stormtroopers are just regular guys in the army. *The movies start in media res and the Republic seems to be losing the Clone Wars. *Jedis don't have crazy over the top DBZ powers. They're more subtle. Essentially Samurai. Lightsaber fights aren't about doing flips and twirling them around, they're more like kendo or fighting with heavy claymores as in the OT. *Palpatine didn't engineer the war, he's more of a Julius Caesar. *R2-D2 and C-3PO are left out to keep continuity. OR they are in it from the start, with no explanation as to where they come from or how they came to be. *Yoda never fights with a Lightsaber. Nor does Palpatine. *Jedi aren't taken as children. They choose to become Jedi voluntarily. *The Jedi don't have any laws forbidding romance or attachment. *The Jedi are spiritual warrior monks. There isn't a Jedi bureaucracy or government like the papacy. There are random temples across the land, and Jedi as less like police officers and more like wandering samurai who go around doing good deeds for people in trouble. The series might start with Anakin and Obi-Wan wandering around space, and they just so happen to find Queen Amidala who asks them to help the people of Naboo because they're in trouble. They're not sent on a mission, they just decide to help her out. Like, bandits are attacking Naboo and they can't defend themselves (Seven Samurai, anyone? Tons of movies, including Star Wars, are based off Kurosawa films. Hey, it seems to work, Fistful of Dollars, the Magnificent Seven and Star Wars ANH all turned out great) THE CAST (now with personalities!) *Anakin: Smug, cocky, sarcastic. Brash Jedi who like anybody in their late teens thinks he's invincible. Sometimes butts heads with Obi-Wan but in general they have a familial bond and care for each other a lot, despite their occasional disagreements. No virginal birth, no chosen one BS, just an exceptionally talented and confident Jedi. *Obi-Wan: Similar to the classic Obi-Wan, but younger and less wise, about in his 40's. Definitely Anakin's father figure. *Amidala: Pretty much Princess Leia. Well, she is her mom. *Unnamed (Kikuchiyo): ANH was based off the Hidden Fortress, so why not bring in another great Kurosawa character? Basically Toshiro Mifune's character from the Seven Samurai. He's the comic relief. *Count Dooku: The main antagonist, Darth Vader stand in. Aristocratic and sophisticated, but also very large and imposing and somewhat creepy, much like Darth Vader and more directly, Count Dracula. Utterly ruthless and appears to be an unstoppable evil like Vader. Dracula is one of the all time greatest bad guys, and he and Darth Vader have a lot in common.
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Jan 4, 2011 03:38
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Gammatron 64 posted:in media res  In medias res.(Sorry. Being a Latin geek gives one some strange pet peeves.)
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Jan 4, 2011 03:49
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Donkey Kunt posted:In Star Wars, do they have the equivalent of a fighter jet for in atmosphere battle? Or do the space fighters have the ability to fight within the atmosphere? If they do exist, were they ever mentioned as canon or is it part of the EU? I think most fighters can go spcae or atmospheric but like TIE fighters are bad at it because of the wings and no shields or something.
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Jan 4, 2011 04:32
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Powered Descent posted:How quickly they forget... I would consider that more of a hover tank and not a jet fighter. However, you're right about how that would be the closest.
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Jan 4, 2011 04:35
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Biplane posted:I think most fighters can go spcae or atmospheric but like TIE fighters are bad at it because of the wings and no shields or something. The first Star Wars Battlefront game allowed you to pilot TIE Fighters in orbit. That was brutal. Mostly because there was an invisible ceiling which made maneuvering very tight and constricted.
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Jan 4, 2011 04:40
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Donkey Kunt posted:I would consider that more of a hover tank and not a jet fighter. However, you're right about how that would be the closest. I have fond memories of sperging at the age of twelve playing Rogue Squadron on the N64 and seeing this thing launch from the hanger and fly directly into space if you picked it for a mission.
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Jan 4, 2011 05:50
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So in trying to think through that "fix the prequels" thing, I realized... is Palpatine's whole plan entirely to destroy himself? It seems it. This isn't just the Prequels; it extends into the OT. In TPM, he sends Maul to kill two random Jedi. Why? What would he gain from having a Sith show up to kill two Jedi out of thousands with a lightsaber and so prove that the Sith are still around? Up until then, no one knew that the Sith endured, unless I'm forgetting something. So the plan was... send Maul to reveal that the Sith exist and lose out on their secrecy that had kept them safe for a long time? Then in the Clone Wars (all through 'em, not just bits in the movies), he has two sides that are both entirely under his control: the Separatists and the Republic. There doesn't seem to be a major third power here; he's behind everyone. So... he has some of his servants kill other of his servants, with the ultimate goal of... getting to call himself Emperor and killing the Jedi? Was Maul's purpose to get the Jedi involved so he could get clones close to most of them for Order 66? Still seems like it could have been done without revealing the Sith; the Jedi are still defenders of the Republic, and if Palpatine hadn't revealed that the Sith existed from previous sources, he could have ruled the galaxy for his full lifespan without anyone being the wiser that he was a Force user, Clone Wars or no. So he names himself Emperor, and then turns himself from a fairly benevolent chancellor to a cacklingly evil and oppressive ruler... why? Is he just not really a people person? Since it seems to me that having people happy with your rule is a good way to remain in power. Instead, he starts constructing giant anti-planet weapons and gets a Rebellion against him. So he kidnaps someone who could destroy him and tries to get the kid to kill him. When Luke stops trying, Palpatine decides to torture him to death in front of the kid's father, with fairly predictable results, once we know that Anakin had previously switched sides to try to save his family; it shouldn't be a surprise that he'd do it again. So, uh... what was Palpatine actually trying to do? Don't say "fight the Vong".
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Jan 4, 2011 06:21
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I think as he got older, Palpatine slipped into senility. It happens. I'm curious as to when the Emperor found out Vader's kids were alive. Did it really matter to him? At least before he decided to get rid of the pussy in the black suit for the newer model?
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Jan 4, 2011 06:37
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I still like the first concept of the Palpatine from the ANH novelquote:
Nckdictator fucked around with this message at 06:59 on Jan 4, 2011 |
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Jan 4, 2011 06:53
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Bene Elim posted:Right, ( I think the major problem with the prequels, which can't be fixed by a rewrite, is that they are thoroughly unnecessary. Plinkett mentioned this, but I've thought it for a long time now. The original trilogy tells a complete story, beginning to end, and all nessisary backstory has already been provided. Furthermore, what a filmaker makes will never be able to live up to what a viewer's imagination has provided for them after two decades of wondering. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that prequels in general are flawed from the get-go. We already know how things end, reducing the dramatic tension. But more than that, I think that if a story was supposed to begin farther back, any good film-maker would have started it there. Can someone provide me with examples of any good prequels? I'm going to go ahead and exclude Godfather part II because much of the movie takes place after the original, and Temple of Doom doesn't really count either because it being a prequel is completely inconsequential to anything. You could very easily say it was a sequel and nothing would change. With that said, are there any prequels that rise above middling?
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Jan 4, 2011 07:19
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Paranormal Activity 2 did pretty well as a prequel.
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Jan 4, 2011 07:27
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DorianGravy posted:I think the major problem with the prequels, which can't be fixed by a rewrite, is that they are thoroughly unnecessary. Plinkett mentioned this, but I've thought it for a long time now. The original trilogy tells a complete story, beginning to end, and all nessisary backstory has already been provided. Furthermore, what a filmaker makes will never be able to live up to what a viewer's imagination has provided for them after two decades of wondering. The Good the Bad and the Ugly is (arguably) a prequel to A Fistful of Dollars and For a Few Dollars More. Like Temple of Doom it is almost totally inconsequential to the other Dollars movies. Godfather Part II, Temple of Doom and A Fistful of Dollars are almost literally it... Only other movie prequel I can think of is Tremors 4 and uhhh...
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Jan 4, 2011 07:31
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Did Salacious Crumb die when Jabba's party skiff exploded?
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Jan 4, 2011 07:34
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SkunkDuster posted:Obi Wan says that Tusken Raiders walk in single file to hide their numbers. Hide their numbers from who? Seems like Krayt dragons are the only thing that scares them. The fact that even Obi Wan didn't want to be around when they came back implies that they aren't to be taken lightly, and they live in lovely huts with nothing worth stealing, so who are they hiding from? The Hutts jumpstarted a war between the Tuskens and the Republic settlers. And there was intermittent fighting and raiding before that. Lets face it, "Angry Militant Raiders" aren't exactly a group most places would ever really like to keep around if they can help it.  Slantedfloors fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Jan 4, 2011 |
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Jan 4, 2011 08:23
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Do the sand people have access to space travel? They just don't seem like they should be an advance enough race to cause problems if the Republic or Empire actually wanted to fight them.
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Jan 4, 2011 09:09
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Donkey Kunt posted:Do the sand people have access to space travel? They just don't seem like they should be an advance enough race to cause problems if the Republic or Empire actually wanted to fight them. No, they're basically just desert nomads. They're only really a threat to settlers on Tatooine, and then only because no Galactic power gives a poo poo about Tatooine in the first place.
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Jan 4, 2011 09:14
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Kill Whitey posted:Did Salacious Crumb die when Jabba's party skiff exploded? He will live on in erotic fanfiction and our nightmares. Pardon the redundancy.
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Jan 4, 2011 09:15
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DorianGravy posted:I think the major problem with the prequels, which can't be fixed by a rewrite, is that they are thoroughly unnecessary. Part of me is resigned to the fact that prequels exist, so the best we can do is make them as good as possible. The saying goes 'It's not the destination, but the journey that matters' so I do think there can be a good prequel, but it hasn't been done yet as far as I know. Gammatron 64 posted:The idea gets tossed around here every once and a while, but nobody has actually done it because it's practically fanfiction. As to your ideas, they're drat good. My only objection is the firm identification of a comic relief character. I don't think Star Wars should have one. There should be characters who can get away with goofing off for a bit (han and chewie, R2 and 3PO), but not purely comic (like Jar-Jar or PT R2 and 3PO). VV This kind of thing is very interesting, and would really have made a big difference. The problem after this is that the plot is batshit insane, and not really VV saveable by this method. I think the best that could be done would be the removal of all that 'chosen one, balance to the force' crap.VV Bene Elim fucked around with this message at 12:36 on Jan 4, 2011 |
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Jan 4, 2011 11:14
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You see, I have a habit of trying to take a movie I didn't like a whole lot and look at it and try to come up with ways of 'fixing it' that wouldn't have required them to be _completely_ different movies or made them that much more expensive to produce. Episode One could have been improved greatly by replacing Jar-Jar with Tarpels through the movie, and making the Gungans like a second-class Naboo citizen, and making a few small plot tweaks to make this work. We keep everything else in the movie, but Tarpels adds a lot of weight to things as the trilogy develops. He makes a connection to Anakin early on because they share a history of being second-class beings in their cultures, sort of making himself a big-brother figure to him. You can take Tarpels forward into Episode 2 as a spokesman on the Naboo seat along with Padme. They represent two different ideological viewpoints. She's the idealist former aristrocatic princess, he's a realistic former servant soldier. They respect each other, they both want the same thing, but they're also opposites in their viewpoints. He needs less coaxing to jumpstart a vote that will help create an army. Also, by having Tarpels, he's a smarter character than Jar-Jar. He can pick up on Anakin/Padme having feelings for each other, makes 'suggestions' that put the pair together, gives Anakin encouragement and hints, etc. Again, we keep pretty much the existing plot, but tweak a few small things to encourage this. Tarpels would be likely be much less universally hated than Jar-Jar by the fans at this point, so he's likely get some more screen time in the film in AOTC. Episode 3, have Anakin kill Tarpels. This isn't Anakin killing powerful Jedi or well-protected enemies or even younglings we've not come to know. This is Anakin killing someone who has shown himself to true friend through the series without any other attachments, baggage or expectations. We'd lose this character we'd hopefully come to like and feel sad for what his death represents in Anakin's downfall. It's not fixing all the films, but it's changing a few elements in that first film regarding a supporting character that I feel would pay off huge dividends by the end.
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Jan 4, 2011 12:16
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ZeeToo posted:So, uh... what was Palpatine actually trying to do? Don't say "fight the Vong". Space pot, remember? RULE THE EMPIRE EVERY DAY.
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Jan 4, 2011 12:47
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The fact is, there are small changes that could help the prequels a little (Grevious is actually Maul) and there are large changes that could help even more. My big thing I'd change? Palpatine didn't engineer a war and get duly elected, but instead he started the war as an enemy of the Republic, lead the clones in the Clone Wars, and defeated the Republic. He takes over ruling the Galaxy, but because it's so large he keeps the Senate in place to pacify the systems, albeit a somewhat useless and corrupt Senate. (Until the Death Star makes it unnecessary, of course.) This way you get to have a real villain (have Dooku be the Vader like character, a General for the Emperor) and the Emperor can stay about as behind the scenes as he was in the OT. Always present, but not walking around as a perfectly nice guy for the whole trilogy. In the PT you have Palpatine who is totally evil, except when you usually see him he's being polite and attentive. I know he's not actually a nice guy, but seeing him be the Chancellor for 3 movies and not as the villain takes away from his impact as THE villain, in my mind. The only challenge here would be why Anakin joins him if he's an outside invading force, but that's easily covered by having him seduced by the Dark Side, that he sees from both Dooku and eventually Palpatine. Drawn in by the power. The Jedi would want to join in the Clone Wars because they're worried what would happen to their "Peace and Justice" if Palpatine, a Sith Lord, wins. Maybe Anakin hunts down the remaining Jedi because the Jedi (who are not a centrally organized group) all plan on continuing the fighting after the war is over, and Anakin feels order has to be restored. He might kill the Jedi for his own idea of a "greater good", in that it would hopefully end the war, bringing order (and more power to himself). It's mainly a half idea at this point, and I generally hate fan fiction, but I'm so close to writing these up (and never showing them to anyone) just for my own benefit (picturing these events when watching the OT, and ignoring the PT). P-canon to an extreme level.
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Jan 4, 2011 16:15
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ZeeToo posted:So, uh... what was Palpatine actually trying to do? Don't say "fight the Vong". I always thought it was a Sith philosophy thing: the highest expression of the soul is to dominate and suborn other souls, to draw out their aggressive nature, which comes from fear and anger and hatred. He sends Maul to make the Jedi fearful, nervous of Sith in every shadow. The drawn-out war makes people hateful and afraid enough to want to have the stability of a dictator. And then once he becomes emperor, like SBS says, that's it's own reward, there's no greater purpose than the continual infliction of terror and collection of obedience from the entire galaxy. I think he never once thinks that Vader will betray him, because no one ever has, because subverting people's desires and binding them to his will is pretty much his thing.
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Jan 4, 2011 16:44
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Kill Whitey posted:Did Salacious Crumb die when Jabba's party skiff exploded? No, Salacious actually escaped to Coruscant, where he built up a criminal empire by gathering up the remnants of Xizor's followers. Palpatine took an interest in Salacious, sensing his powerful force abilities and hunger for power. Salacious Crumb became the Emperor's Other Hand, and fought an army of Starkiller clones in an ice cave on Hoth. Salacious was victorious, but gravely wounded and disfigured. He underwent extensive reconstructive surgery, rendering him unrecognizable. As such, he was no longer Salacious Crumb, and took on a new name. That name was Thrawn. (where's my money, Lucasbooks?)
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Jan 4, 2011 16:44
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Is there an EU story were Grievous comes back to life/gets rebuilt/is cloned?
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Jan 4, 2011 16:49
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Bene Elim posted:TBH, I agree with you. Whenever I see something to do with the prequels I can't properly link it to the OT in my mind, and they still stand alone as a trilogy. Star Wars always had comic relief: Artoo and Threepio. What separates them from Jar Jar was that they were actually funny. The only reason my idea has a comic relief character is because it uses the old Hollywood technique of "When in doubt... rip off Akira Kurosawa!" and it has a guy who is essentially Toshiro Mifune's character from the Seven Samurai... who is a scruffy, gruff, rude, horny, socially awkward drunken Jedi who probably isn't even really a Jedi and just somehow stole a beat up lightsaber and some dirty robes, but the other Jedi let him hang around because they like him and they could use another guy with a sword, even though he's going into battle completely plastered. Toshiro Mifune rules and practically steals the show in that movie. He's a complete rear end in a top hat, but he's the kinda rear end in a top hat you can't help but love. I wouldn't think it's a terrible idea, because the Seven Samurai is considered to be one of the best films ever made, almost up there with Citizen Kane. Course, you really don't need the character though, it's just an idea I was tossing out there. My idea of Anakin is really like a young Captain Kirk. Reckless, cocky, extremely smug and has an immense ego. Before he meets Padme, he goes around in space on adventures and bangs multiple green space women at once all the time. It works, because Captain Kirk is essentially the quintessential Space Opera Hero Archetype (TM). The original Star Wars was big on borrowing ideas from mythology and pulp fiction, so it works. Obi-Wan is sometimes annoyed by Anakin's stupidity, irresponsibility and reckless attitude, but he honestly has fun going on adventures with Anakin as he finds his attitude a little refreshing compared to a lot of sometimes uptight and boring Jedi monks and Anakin makes him feel a little nostalgic for his days as a youth. I do really prefer the idea of the Republic becoming the Empire and not being conquered by it. Heck, you could even still have the war engineered by Palpatine! Except this time around he isn't in control of both sides, he just started it under false pretenses, and it isn't just Palpatine who is in on the scheme. More like the explanation in the book, Palpatine is a corrupt, but charismatic politician. He's like a Ronald Regan. His public face is a friendly old man who loves morals and family values. Behind the scenes, he's greedy, hateful, racist and makes dirty deals. The Lobbyists and corrupt senators absolutely love him because he practically (and later literally) lets them get away with murder. Palpatine doesn't make a master plan to destroy Democracy overnight. In fact, it's practically already gone - at this point the Republic is practically an oligarchy disguised as a democracy. A lot of the bad people who already pretty much rule the Republic are overjoyed when Palpatine declares himself Emperor, because he's giving them even more money and power, and he's stamping out anyone who opposes them. You remember those creepy old guys who would hang out with the Emperor in ROTJ? This is those guys. At this point, people only get things done in the Republic through bribes and favors. They do him a favor by making him the Emperor, he does them favors. The people in the government who actually do care about helping the people are effectively rendered powerless. And a lot of the jerks in the government are also secretly part of Palpatine's Sith cult. In the Clone Wars, Anakin is a huge hero. He isn't a messiah... but he's starting to think he is. Something happens to him, though. As the war goes on, he becomes more bitter and frustrated about the world. Watching friends and loved ones die starts turning him into a bit of a nihilist. He is frustrated about what goes on in the Republic, but he and everybody else seem powerless to do anything. Anakin finds out about Palpatine's Sith secret society. They tempt him with money and power. Anakin thinks to himself, when you can't beat them... join them. Anakin was a good guy at first, and had good intentions at first... but Palpatine's way starts to become way too tempting. Anakin's morals have always been a little shaky, but he did things with good intentions. Anakin starts doing more and more unethical things, and they start escalating. Anakin joins the Sith cult, and they give him his Sith name: Darth Vader. Vader adopts a new philosophy: there is no such thing as Good or Evil. There is only the weak... and the strong. By late into the second movie or early in the third, Anakin finally kills somebody in cold blood. Revenge isn't his motivation. It's greed. Anakin's situation is starting to become like a guy who got involved with the mafia and is becoming one of their thugs. The other Jedi see what a bad example he has become, and they publicly denounce him and excommunicate him. Padme grows increasingly unhappy with their relationship. She starts wondering where all these houses and ships and luxury items are coming from. Anakin returns her concerns by starting to smack her around. Padme leaves him and goes to Obi-Wan for help. Vader sees her with Obi-Wan a lot and start believing they are having an affair. In fact, one option that you could do is that Obi-Wan and Padme actually do have an affair (thought of this seeing episode 3, would have made it make way more sense). Vader sees Padme kiss Obi-Wan, and he snaps. He's going to kill them both. Vader starts hunting them down, and finally corners them. Obi-Wan and Vader have their famous volcano duel, and Obi-Wan beats him. (The "falling into a volcano" origin was in the mythology wayyy before the prequels, it was in the ROTJ novel.) The Emperor's men recover Darth Vader, barely alive after his severe burning, and rebuild him as the monster we see in the OT around the time the Republic officially becomes the Empire. The Jedi denounced him. His best friend and mentor betrayed him and slept with his wife. He has had it with the Jedi. When the Emperor asks Vader to exterminate the Jedi, he happily obliges.
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Jan 4, 2011 17:23
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Gammatron 64 posted:I do really prefer the idea of the Republic becoming the Empire and not being conquered by it. Heck, you could even still have the war engineered by Palpatine! Except this time around he isn't in control of both sides, he just started it under false pretenses, and it isn't just Palpatine who is in on the scheme. The main reason I prefer the Republic being conquered by the Empire and not becoming it is it gives the war some reason for fighting it. If Palpatine engineer's the war, and the Jedi are fighting on a side that Palpatine wants them too, then if the bad guys win everyone is screwed, and if the "good guys" win, everyone is screwed. It works for some types of films, but I don't think space opera is suited to it. It's a massive galaxy spanning war, and you should be really hoping one side wins. Even if that side loses, you're more interested in the battles if there's something at stake. Palpatine trying to take over through the war makes the battles interesting. Palpatine trying to take over through manipulation behind the scenes makes the battles shiny distractions from the plot. But that's just my opinion on how I'd do it. There's plenty of ways to make better prequels. I just like the way it brings Star Wars back to simple light side vs. dark side, and not political machinations.
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Jan 4, 2011 17:31
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Starsnostars posted:Is there an EU story were Grievous comes back to life/gets rebuilt/is cloned? Yeah. It's called Star Wars Galaxies 
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Jan 4, 2011 17:51
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TheCommodore07 posted:It's not the Imperial March. It's the Emperor's Theme from ROTJ. Flagrant Abuse posted:As the TheCommodore07 said, it's not the Imperial March; it's the Emperor's theme, which you hear when he's landing aboard the second Death Star. Compare the vocals of each. Yeah, I feel really stupid now. Finally spotted it anyway, thanks for helping.
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Jan 4, 2011 17:51
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This may have been brought up before or maybe in one of the Plinket reviews but who wanted Senator Padme / Amadala dead and why? The only person I can come up with is Nut Gunray and revenge, I guess? AcridWhistle fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Jan 4, 2011 |
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Jan 4, 2011 19:25
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^^ Yeah, Gunray spent ten years trying to kill one girl who had a vague something to do with stopping some misguided scheme that he was carrying out for someone else. Such a rich and multi-dimensional addition to the Star Wars lexicon.KillWhitey posted:Salacious Crumb? Crowetron posted:Salacious Crumb! Thrawn, JediTalentAgent, Gammatron posted:What the prequels should have been... Thrawn2012 posted:...I generally hate fan fiction, but I'm so close to writing these up... Seriously though, getting together a non-rabid fan collaboration of ideas into a half decent movie proposal for the internet's enjoyment feels like a good idea. So long as I wasn't forced to helm such a project, I'd gladly participate.
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Jan 4, 2011 20:09
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thrawn527 posted:The main reason I prefer the Republic being conquered by the Empire and not becoming it is it gives the war some reason for fighting it. If Palpatine engineer's the war, and the Jedi are fighting on a side that Palpatine wants them too, then if the bad guys win everyone is screwed, and if the "good guys" win, everyone is screwed. It works for some types of films, but I don't think space opera is suited to it. It's a massive galaxy spanning war, and you should be really hoping one side wins. Even if that side loses, you're more interested in the battles if there's something at stake. Palpatine trying to take over through the war makes the battles interesting. Palpatine trying to take over through manipulation behind the scenes makes the battles shiny distractions from the plot. A poster above suggested that when it doubt, rip off Akira Kurosawa. Works for me, but I'd extend it - when in doubt about a grand overarching plot for a war, rip off Thucydides and Edward Gibbon, or classical history in general. Mix and match - Palpatine is a Caesar figure, the clones are the Carthaginians with Grievous (and fix his name) as Hannibal. You have the Clone Wars in Ep 1 & 2. You'd keep Palpatine offscreen to the extent practical, which might be completely offscreen. The war concludes in Ep. 3 with a Republic victory, with Palps seizing power, starting a brief but bloody Civil War, and launching a campaign of systematic extermination of the wandering-samurai Jedi. In each war, the audience gets to unambiguously root for the Republic during the Clone Wars, and against the nascent Empire once that comes about. Obviously in that framework you can do just about anything with the story. You don't have to worry too much about lack of tension, since clearly every character except Anakin and Obi-Wan are at risk.
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Jan 4, 2011 20:09
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Captain von Trapp posted:A poster above suggested that when it doubt, rip off Akira Kurosawa. Works for me, but I'd extend it - when in doubt about a grand overarching plot for a war, rip off Thucydides and Edward Gibbon, or classical history in general. Mix and match - Palpatine is a Caesar figure, the clones are the Carthaginians with Grievous (and fix his name) as Hannibal. I like this idea quite a bit, actually. Because it lets Obi-Wan and Anakin be completely on the same side for the entire war, but then they fall on different sides in the resulting Civil War. Anakin could then become a Marc Antony type character to Palpatine's Caesar (if Caesar hadn't died, of course). Anakin could be drawn to him by his vision of, I don't know, order and extreme justice, as well as his power in the Force. Then they wipe out the Jedi to end the war and kill off their biggest threat, these wandering-samurai Jedi who do not agree with Palpatine's way, and thus are creating a Rebellion.
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Jan 4, 2011 20:23
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Captain von Trapp posted:A poster above suggested that when it doubt, rip off Akira Kurosawa. Works for me, but I'd extend it - when in doubt about a grand overarching plot for a war, rip off Thucydides and Edward Gibbon, or classical history in general. Mix and match - Palpatine is a Caesar figure, the clones are the Carthaginians with Grievous (and fix his name) as Hannibal. Yeah, yeah! That's the logical way to do it. Only thing I'd disagree with, is no Grievous. The Hannibal character is either Dooku or completely new. The reason I keep bringing up Dooku is that he could have been the prequel's "Darth Vader but Not", but he wasn't and was instead hugely wasted potential (he was Christopher Lee for godsakes!) The bad guys are the Mandalorians. They're kind of like warlike "barbarians" attacking the Republic (Rome). Their army is enormous because they have clones. Neither Boba nor Jango Fett appear, though. There are millions of guys who wear similar armor, but they're just the disposable baddie cannon fodder that the Stormtroopers were in the OT. The good guys aren't just Jedi and Clones, they're regular people off to fight in a war. The Jedi aren't in command. It's just that a lot of Jedi simply decide to enlist and fight in the war. It's a minor detail, but I think the Republican Soldiers should look like Stormtroopers... but without masks. They have shiny white armor, but you can see their faces - it's a psychological thing. thrawn527 posted:I like this idea quite a bit, actually. Because it lets Obi-Wan and Anakin be completely on the same side for the entire war, but then they fall on different sides in the resulting Civil War. Anakin could then become a Marc Antony type character to Palpatine's Caesar (if Caesar hadn't died, of course). Anakin could be drawn to him by his vision of, I don't know, order and extreme justice, as well as his power in the Force. Then they wipe out the Jedi to end the war and kill off their biggest threat, these wandering-samurai Jedi who do not agree with Palpatine's way, and thus are creating a Rebellion. Sounds good! Supercar Gautier posted:There's room to talk about details and potential inspiration sources all day, but in a more general sense there's some basic rules that could have been followed and weren't: I agree. Yeah, I rambled on and on for like a page about how corrupt Palpatine and the Senate are, but it's just backstory. Political stuff will certainly be mentioned, but it won't be shown or explored in the detail the prequels did. Somebody might be like "Why isn't the Republic sending troops to help us? I can't believe we elected that pig Palpatine" but that's basically the extent of it. I think it should start in the middle of the Clone Wars. Doesn't matter how it started, or how it ended. It's about the characters. Episode I: Obi-Wan and Anakin are just wandering Jedi. They find this girl Amidala who turns out to be the Princess of Naboo. They see the Mandalorians are treating the Naboo-ians like dirt, and decide to enlist in the army. Anakin flirts with Amidala, she thinks he's an utter douchebag at first (he kinda is) but eventually falls for him. Kinda like the Han \ Leia dynamic. The Mandalorians are beating the crap out of the smaller underdog Rupublic Army, but with the help of Obi-Wan and Anakin, they manage to win a major battle. Count Dooku is a big bad Sith General who kicks our heroes' asses, but they manage to make it out alive. Episode II: At the end, there is a big battle where the Republic wins, and they beat Count Dooku. The path to the Mandalorian homeworld is wide open. Episode III: The Clone Wars are over, but Palpatine hasn't relinquished his temporary dictator status. The Civil War starts, and Anakin and Obi-Wan are on different sides. Anakin goes all evil, a pregnant Padme flees, Anakin starts hunting down the Jedi, and then falls into a lava pit. GET IN THE ROBOT fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Jan 4, 2011 |
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Jan 4, 2011 20:30
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There's room to talk about details and potential inspiration sources all day, but in a more general sense there's some basic rules that could have been followed and weren't: -Stick with a tight cast of well-defined characters, and follow them and their personal arcs closely/contiguously -Don't widen the story's focus beyond the scope that the OT had; starting with a broad scope with no character anchor and then getting more narrow and intimate towards the finale is awkward as hell -Avoid poo poo that will neutralize the drama and tension of the OT's events (see: Vader), and avoid blatantly contradicting what's stated/shown in those films (see: Jedi) Kurosawa? Hell yeah, go hogwild! Parallelism between trilogies? Sign me up, could be great for dramatic tension if Anakin and Luke face similar trials and choices. But that's details, when the reality is that the prequels could be done well with a pretty similar plot if they'd just followed general guidelines like those. Supercar Gautier fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Jan 4, 2011 |
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Jan 4, 2011 20:42
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Supercar Gautier posted:Kurosawa? Hell yeah, go hogwild! Parallelism between trilogies? Sign me up, could be great for dramatic tension if Anakin and Luke face similar trials and choices. But that's details, when the reality is that the prequels could done well with a pretty similar plot if they'd just followed general guidelines like those. Yep. And you'd want to keep some of the mysteries and surprises of the OT intact as well. Offhand, I'd say: We should never see Yoda. Obi-Wan is a relatively young guy (30s, say) but still a decade out from his training. He'd probably mention Yoda with obvious affection and reverence, and try to pass on some of his wisdom to Anakin, but that's it. We should never see Palpatine use the Force overtly. Maybe we should never see him at all. He's known the way most of us know about national politicians - from a distance. I guess we should learn in the last prequel that he's a master of the dark side, since Anakin has to fall into that orbit somehow, but the RotJ lightning should still be a terrifying and completely unexpected surprise. If seen, he's a normal looking older guy, with his creepy look in the original trilogy left without explanation. The viewer can figure out for himself that the dark side is corrosive to the user. We should never see force ghosts, or have them explained. On the other hand, it might be a wise thing to have all Jedi disappear on death, as a universal (if unexplained) thing. We should never see the lightsaber overused or activated casually. If a lightsaber is onscreen, it's a Big Deal. Each of the original film's lightsaber scenes can be counted on one hand, and that should be true for the prequels. In short, forget "dense" , effects or callbacks or otherwise. Less is more. The original Star Wars was a pretty spare and visually striking film. The director of our hypothetical prequel reboot should be thinking Sergio Leone, not Michael Bay.
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Jan 4, 2011 22:03
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Captain von Trapp posted:Yep. And you'd want to keep some of the mysteries and surprises of the OT intact as well. Offhand, I'd say: I don't have much to add, I just want to say that I agree wholeheartedly with everything you just said.
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Jan 4, 2011 22:31
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The only problem with that, is that to make Yoda a surprise in ESB you can't show him, but then you have the problem where Obi-Wan was trained by Yoda, so to show Obi-wan you sort of have to include Yoda some way or the other. I think the best option is to have the preferred order of viewing them be 4,5,6 and then 1,2,3. Because there's no way to not spoil Vader/Luke and Yoda, because at least the Vader/Luke thing has to be in the prequels. I think a cool idea would have been to kill off Obi-wan, and then have him cloned or something. That's the only way to have tension. Then it's not a matter of knowing that he's going to be ok, but instead the mystery will be that he's dead, and how does he come back? Maybe the clone wars are that both sides are trying to clone the Jedi's, to have them as pawns, and Anakin somehow gets them to clone Obi-wan, even though he didn't agree with it. Then when Obi-wan comes back, he's pissed at Anakin, they have a falling out, or something. Eh. I don't care.
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Jan 4, 2011 22:39
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Jerk McJerkface posted:The only problem with that, is that to make Yoda a surprise in ESB you can't show him, but then you have the problem where Obi-Wan was trained by Yoda, so to show Obi-wan you sort of have to include Yoda some way or the other. Showing Obi-Wan doesn't mean you have to show him being trained. In my mind, the prequels should start with Obi-Wan already a Jedi, maybe training Anakin, or maybe just convincing him to come with him on some "idealistic crusade". Doesn't mean Yoda has to be shown at all. Jerk McJerkface posted:I think a cool idea would have been to kill off Obi-wan, and then have him cloned or something. That's the only way to have tension. Then it's not a matter of knowing that he's going to be ok, but instead the mystery will be that he's dead, and how does he come back? I couldn't disagree with this more. It would feel cheap and kind of silli, and we'd know he doesn't stay dead. The how he comes back is kind of pointless. We already know a couple people who won't die. Everyone else you introduce is fair game and tension can arise from there, and from the attrition the Clone Wars cause.
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Jan 4, 2011 22:51
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In my imagination I always filled in the "Clone Wars" as being a war between the Jedi and their clones. Looking back, I like some of the alternate ways to go covered here - and I think I agree with the consensus that Episode I was entirely unnecessary and just didn't feel "right" after seeing it in the theatres. Plinkett has sort of knocked down any sort of belief I had that things were fine with the prequels when I really start comparing them to the OT that I grew up with.
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Jan 4, 2011 22:51
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