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If it was x87's fault wouldn't this... be an issue in other languages? Ditto for compiler switches?
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Jan 5, 2011 20:44
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Scaramouche posted:If it was x87's fault wouldn't this... be an issue in other languages? Ditto for compiler switches? That is to say, it isn't a hardware issue. It doesn't happen without x87, but it also wouldn't happen if the PHP devs were competent.
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Jan 5, 2011 20:49
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PHP's problem is their retarded strtod algorithm only works on IEEE doubles, and not other (larger) IEEE floats.
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Jan 5, 2011 20:50
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Scaramouche posted:If it was x87's fault wouldn't this... be an issue in other languages? Ditto for compiler switches? Or if it wasn't the x87 FPU then it wouldn't show up on other architectures.
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Jan 5, 2011 21:11
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Fwiw: ocaml got caught out by these issues - i.e inaccuracy/errors in using the x87 But! php wrote an algorithm that went into an infinite loop when dealing with precision issues. so uh, take your pick.
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Jan 6, 2011 19:32
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Scaevolus posted:Yes. Dammit Notch, please let one of your employee rewrite your engine
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Jan 7, 2011 09:28
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crazylakerfan posted:Dammit Notch, please let one of your employee rewrite your engine It wouldn't surprise me if Notch surrounded himself with business folks, and meanwhile is still sitting in front of his box, alone, banging out bad java.
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Jan 7, 2011 10:28
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Scaevolus posted:
Do you mind sharing where you got this code from? Is Minecraft's code public? Or was this decompiled and cleaned up?
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Jan 7, 2011 13:21
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It must be decompiled, surely Notch doesn't use magic numbers in his code!
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Jan 7, 2011 13:22
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wlievens posted:Or was this decompiled and cleaned up? Pretty much that, there's at least one decent decompiler. Cleaning up is a bit of effort though due to the obfuscation.
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Jan 7, 2011 13:23
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Notch posted:(Oh, wait, no, I didn’t.. Doing so broke git, so we’re changing to svn because git is horrible and evil) I really hope he's trolling.
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Jan 7, 2011 13:50
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crazylakerfan posted:Dammit Notch, please let one of your employee rewrite your engine wlievens posted:Do you mind sharing where you got this code from? Is Minecraft's code public? Or was this decompiled and cleaned up?
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Jan 7, 2011 13:50
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lmao I can't wait for all of the minecraft clones to completely overshadow the original by simply working
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Jan 7, 2011 14:18
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The Reaganomicon posted:lmao I can't wait for all of the minecraft clones to completely overshadow the original by simply working notch posted:just a few minutes ago, I found out that Minecraft got three nominations for the Independent Games Festival (Grand Prize, Technical Excellence, and Excellence In Design). Independent Games Festival posted:a category which seeks to highlight the innovation and quality in game engines and code. RoadCrewWorker fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Jan 7, 2011 |
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Jan 7, 2011 14:56
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Minecraft has sold 1 million copies. Making every algorithm O(1) is not more important than shipping.
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Jan 7, 2011 15:13
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gastownlabs posted:Minecraft has sold 1 million copies. Making every algorithm O(1) is not more important than shipping. Well yes, profit is the most important thing in the world. Oh wait, that's only if you're a sociopath.
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Jan 7, 2011 17:21
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gastownlabs posted:Minecraft has sold 1 million copies. Making every algorithm O(1) is not more important than shipping. A game with a nearly non-existent physics engine, using 16x16 textures, should be able to run on just about everything.
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Jan 7, 2011 17:43
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Zombywuf posted:Well yes, profit is the most important thing in the world. Oh wait, that's only if you're a sociopath. Who said anything about profit? A technically perfect game that is never released is nothing compared to an imperfect game that millions can enjoy. Certainly Minecraft can be improved, but for the work of one man, I'm not going to complain.
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Jan 7, 2011 18:08
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ryanmfw posted:Who said anything about profit? A technically perfect game that is never released is nothing compared to an imperfect game that millions can enjoy. Certainly Minecraft can be improved, but for the work of one man, I'm not going to complain. Hey man, feel free to post the code that makes you laugh (or cry) here. 
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Jan 7, 2011 18:24
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A pragmatic reason for code sucking doesn't mean it's not a coding horror.
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Jan 7, 2011 18:30
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Scaevolus posted:A pragmatic reason for code sucking doesn't mean it's not a coding horror. Notch is a coding abomination. Worse still, a shipping one.
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Jan 7, 2011 18:31
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A scheduled app that runs every 5 minutes depends on a SQL query that takes ~3 minutes to complete. There was increased load or something last night and the query was timing out every single time, sending me a hundred error emails. I take a look at the query and it's basically doing a self-join on a non-indexed field (why join on ID fields?) inside a sub-query. I changed the join column to use the ID and the query completes instantaneously.
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Jan 7, 2011 18:44
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Smugdog Millionaire posted:A scheduled app that runs every 5 minutes depends on a SQL query that takes ~3 minutes to complete. There was increased load or something last night and the query was timing out every single time, sending me a hundred error emails. This reminds me of something that happened with a project that I've been working on. One of my professors and I maintain a web application that our CS department (and tens of others) use to electronically grade student code. Everything ran reasonably well back in the day when we'd flush the database at the beginning of each semester and go fresh, but then we started just using the same database across multiple semesters for ease of collecting statistics. After a few years, performance on parts of the system were terrible (when GTAs went to grade assignments, loading the page that listed all of the student submissions for a particular assignment would take on the order of 10 seconds the first time, until the results were cached). We dug around for ages looking for a bottleneck in the code that rendered these pages, until it finally hit us: we didn't have any indices in the database. Once we added indices for all the frequently joined foreign key columns, the queries were instantaneous.  We just never noticed any performance penalties before because the one-semester databases were small enough.
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Jan 7, 2011 19:45
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ryanmfw posted:Who said anything about profit? A technically perfect game that is never released is nothing compared to an imperfect game that millions can enjoy. Certainly Minecraft can be improved, but for the work of one man, I'm not going to complain. I paid for it and it's unplayable on my netbook, but would be almost playable if it were took about 30% less time to render each frame. So I'm going to complain.
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Jan 7, 2011 19:48
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Hey, not really defending poo poo coding, just arguing that poo poo coding isn't always about profit. It sucks that your netbook can't play 3D games but neither can mine, suck it up.
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Jan 8, 2011 06:34
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ryanmfw posted:Hey, not really defending poo poo coding, just arguing that poo poo coding isn't always about profit. It sucks that your netbook can't play 3D games but neither can mine, suck it up. He can code fast, was inspired by a good idea, and has legions of autistic fans. That's all he has going for him.
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Jan 8, 2011 06:36
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ryanmfw posted:Hey, not really defending poo poo coding, just arguing that poo poo coding isn't always about profit. It sucks that your netbook can't play 3D games but neither can mine, suck it up. I get better framerate in fallout 3 than minecraft, both on max settings, and Notch has pushed out updates with showstopper bugs (death in survival multiplayer making you invisible and unable to interact with the world + sometimes people spawning dozens of feet above spawn and dying from fall damage) Opinion Haver fucked around with this message at 12:41 on Jan 8, 2011 |
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Jan 8, 2011 12:35
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Aleksei Vasiliev posted:Notch is literally de-improving the game when he releases patches. He adds bugs that are bad enough to make the game Not Fun. So all he has going for him is his tremendous success? It sucks that some people aren't able to play his game, but it's not like he's unaware of that fact. That fact is why the game was labeled alpha, and that fact is also why he explicitly states he will not offer public technical support for the game right now. The bugs I hear being described are pretty common bugs for alpha versions of games. There's lots of games that are nearly unplayable even through beta due to framerate and load time issues. So...you're complaining that a thing labeled alpha that the developer explicitly will not provide technical support for is unoptimized and broken. How could you have reasonably expected the game to function any other way in an alpha state? If this game wasn't in the state you describe then it wouldn't have been marked alpha, and it also wouldn't have been $5. I don't think it's ideal to ever release software in that state, but the economics of game development are such that indie developers releasing alpha versions of their games for small amounts of money makes a lot of sense. Notch had this idea for a game, but he only had the resources to take it so far. Notch would probably have liked to fully polish and finish Minecraft before releasing it, but he couldn't justify putting that amount of time and resources into it since he just didn't have them. Putting the game up for sale early in an unfinished state basically allowed the public to become his investors, and it also allowed him to gauge interest in his game concept. If he had put Minecraft up for $5 and no one bought it then that would have been a signal to move to his next project. Turns out, it was a hit, and the funding is allowing him to finish developing Minecraft properly if he chooses to. ErIog fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Jan 8, 2011 |
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Jan 8, 2011 14:12
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When in history has anybody charged money for an alpha release of something? In fact, when has an alpha release ever been made available to the general public? Notch is charging money for an unfinished product and using "alpha" as an excuse for poor quality control.
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Jan 8, 2011 14:31
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qntm posted:Notch is charging money for an unfinished product and using "alpha" as an excuse for poor quality control. Are you really criticizing a product that is labeled to hell and back by the developer as unfinished by saying it's unfinished? Yes, he's charging money for an unfinished game. That is the point. That is why it's labeled "alpha" instead of "bug-free release version." The husband and wife team that initially made Mount & Blade used this strategy 7 years ago. It's not without precedent. Did you not read anything I wrote? He's charging money for an alpha release in order to get funding so that he can make it a beta release or a full release. The usual process for a much larger game developer in this instance would be to try to shop this game around to different publishers in order to secure funding to finish it or just shitcan the project. Instead of doing that, he just went to players directly. So instead of him signing the rights to his game away to a publisher for a pittance, he has allowed end users to invest directly in the development of the game. In return, players get access to early versions of the product. Without Notch charging for Minecraft, there would have been no continued work on Minecraft because it wouldn't have made economic sense for him. Notch couldn't have just waited until it was done to release it since the resources just wouldn't have been there to do that. When he released the Minecraft alpha he was just one guy, and the money he has made off this alpha has allowed him to build a company to finish the game and make other games. ErIog fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Jan 8, 2011 |
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Jan 8, 2011 15:01
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qntm posted:When in history has anybody charged money for an alpha release of something? In fact, when has an alpha release ever been made available to the general public? But it looks like this and is running on their own proprietary engine, so they kind of needed the money. Also they are constantly fixing bugs, whereas Notch will release a game-breaking patch and then go to sleep. (Patches are silent and automatic on launch) Unknown Worlds is essentially doing the same thing Notch is, except they're producing a far more complex game with less money. And doing a much better job of it. Minecraft: Making every thread mentioning it into a Minecraft thread since 2010.
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Jan 8, 2011 15:07
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ErIog posted:Are you really criticizing a product that is labeled to hell and back by the developer as unfinished by saying it's unfinished? I'm criticising it because from looking at that code I could make it playable on my netbook in about 10 minutes. Also, because it's poo poo code, and this is "Coding horrors: post the code that makes you laugh (or cry)" not "Coding horrors: stick up for poo poo coders because a bunch of people gave them money."
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Jan 8, 2011 15:18
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Aleksei Vasiliev posted:Unknown Worlds is essentially doing the same thing Notch is, except they're producing a far more complex game with less money. And doing a much better job of it. You're gonna need to provide a source for this because I'm seeing that Unknown Worlds has received 2 rounds of outside investment plus whatever Zen of Sudoku made plus whatever pre-orders for NS2 make. They've also been working on NS2 for about 3 years at this point. You're comparing 2 very different games at two different stages of development with two very different budgets. Zombywuf posted:I'm criticising it because from looking at that code I could make it playable on my netbook in about 10 minutes. Also, because it's poo poo code, and this is "Coding horrors: post the code that makes you laugh (or cry)" not "Coding horrors: stick up for poo poo coders because a bunch of people gave them money." Well then go do that. Go give Notch your resume. Make your own awesome super-well-coded game that nobody will ever want to play. I'm fine with people criticizing the code since that's what this thread is for, but the attitude of "I could code soooo much better than that so therefore he's a failure that shouldn't be successful at all" is completely stupid since making a game is not entirely about programming. There are people in this thread like Reaganomicon that literally think that consumers give a poo poo about how cleanly their games are programmed. You've spent most of your time since this derail started not talking about code, but delivering your value judgments on Minecraft(based solely on its coding) and Notch's worth as a person(based solely on his coding). You act like Minecraft is the first game to have lovely code when nearly every video game that has ever been released since the beginning of the industry has had some manner of lovely code. I'm not excusing the code when I say that, either. I'm saying that Minecraft having lovely code in it doesn't automatically make it a lovely game, and that Notch not being able to code well doesn't make him a super untalented douchebag rear end in a top hat. Once again, you really don't see the dissonance in the fact that you are criticizing a well-labeled alpha product for having bugs and lovely performance? I feel like if I tried to sell you car with a list of things wrong with it that I gave to you up front, that you would later come back to complain to me about that list of things I told you were all hosed up before you gave me your money. ErIog fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Jan 8, 2011 |
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Jan 8, 2011 15:19
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Minecraft is the new PHP.
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Jan 8, 2011 15:19
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ErIog posted:You're gonna need to provide a source for this because I'm seeing that Unknown Worlds has received 2 rounds of outside investment plus whatever Zen of Sudoku made plus whatever pre-orders for NS2 make. They've also been working on NS2 for about 3 years at this point. You're comparing 2 very different games at two different stages of development with two very different budgets. Minecraft, on the other hand, has sold one million copies. And is still in alpha. And is still commonly unplayable. And still often has new game-breaking bugs introduced. Notch does no real private testing other than "It mostly works on my computer." (NS2 has builds internally tested by the devs and some players before they are released to all the closed beta members)
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Jan 8, 2011 15:37
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Aleksei Vasiliev posted:6 months before the alpha was released, they had $220,000 from preorders and $500,000 from investors. 4 months after the alpha was released they went to closed beta. So the alpha was developed on less than a million dollars. The entire game engine is their own code and deals with rather high quality graphics. I don't see how it's valid to so directly compare a game that had $750,000 invested before they released their product to a game where there was almost no money invested before Notch started charging. Notch only put together his game company in September whereas Unknown Worlds was a company since before development on NS2 started. Minecraft was in development for a period of time with zero funding. NS2 had funding before Unknown Worlds started making the game. That's a completely different situation than a game created with no funding initially. ErIog fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Jan 8, 2011 |
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Jan 8, 2011 15:53
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Notch is a tepid coder and an abominable developer. Can we just agree on that and drop the issue? Unless you have more terrible code to post.
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Jan 8, 2011 15:58
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Aleksei Vasiliev posted:Notch is literally de-improving the game when he releases patches. He adds bugs that are bad enough to make the game Not Fun. What is it about Minecraft that makes you so angry? I don't think I've seen someone argue with such fervor against how a game is developed. Could we get back to Coding Horrors instead of For/Against Minecraft 'spergin?
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Jan 8, 2011 16:18
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ErIog posted:Once again, you really don't see the dissonance in the fact that you are criticizing a well-labeled alpha product for having bugs and lovely performance? Once again you fail to notice you are posting in the thread where we rip on lovely code and the people who write it.
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Jan 8, 2011 16:29
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ErIog posted:You're gonna need to provide a source for this because I'm seeing that Unknown Worlds has received 2 rounds of outside investment plus whatever Zen of Sudoku made plus whatever pre-orders for NS2 make. They've also been working on NS2 for about 3 years at this point. You're comparing 2 very different games at two different stages of development with two very different budgets.
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Jan 8, 2011 17:14
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