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I like it! I think I might make one myself.
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Jan 6, 2011 05:43
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Yeah, I agree. Form over function. Sure do wish this thread would get some more stuff going on. Don't have a lot to contribute, myself, for want of a shop.
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Jan 6, 2011 06:03
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dv6speed posted:I like it! I think I might make one myself. I'm glad I could inspire! It has prompted me to looking into getting a milling machine so I can make things a little cleaner. Stick welder + grinder makes for some rough work, and the joints on my helping hand are SUPER rough. But if you look at my welded figurines, rough is sort of my MO... The Scientist posted:Yeah, I agree. Form over function. No. Function over form.
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Jan 6, 2011 06:34
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Oh yeah, oops.
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Jan 6, 2011 06:35
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Cool stuff Jovial 
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Jan 6, 2011 18:23
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Slung Blade posted:Cool stuff Jovial Thanks! Have you made anything cool lately? I'm trying to build some more swage/hardy tools that'll be useful for sheet metal. I already have my radiusing hammer head, but I think I want to pick up a trailer-hitch ball and weld it onto a 1" shaft so I can draw out some round shapes. And maybe a spoon-swage. Ideally, I'll build a swage tool for everything that I commonly do -- like something that bends the sheet metal into the head shape, coupled with a little nail holder, so I can build the head/neck more easily. What other things can I make?
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Jan 6, 2011 18:45
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jovial_cynic posted:Thanks! Have you made anything cool lately? It's not made of metal, but I have a stump that has a few different sizes of bowls cut into it that I use for dishing out sheet metal, and that works great. Bonus is that the more you use it, the smoother your bowls get so you have less blemishes on your metal.
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Jan 6, 2011 19:45
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Where do Canucks (Slingblade being the only one I know of) buy their blacksmithing poo poo from? I've got an eye on a 75-lb anvil and a starting hammer or two from Princess Auto, if only because it's cheap and no big deal if I lose interest, but beyond that...
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Jan 6, 2011 20:23
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Zquargon posted:It's not made of metal, but I have a stump that has a few different sizes of bowls cut into it that I use for dishing out sheet metal, and that works great. Bonus is that the more you use it, the smoother your bowls get so you have less blemishes on your metal. How large is your stump? ... no double-entendre intended.
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Jan 6, 2011 20:40
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jovial_cynic posted:How large is your stump? It's only about 8 inches across maybe a foot long (That's right, my stump's built like a #10 can, what of it). I have a 5 inch diameter bowl on one end, flip it over and I have a few random sizes and shapes carved into the other end. The easiest way to do it is to start gouging out chunks with a chisel or something and then use your angle grinder to round it all out. Just be careful not to light the stump on fire like I did by not paying attention to how long you held the grinder in place. Zquargon fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Jan 6, 2011 |
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Jan 6, 2011 22:03
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Zquargon posted:It's not made of metal, but I have a stump that has a few different sizes of bowls cut into it that I use for dishing out sheet metal, and that works great. Bonus is that the more you use it, the smoother your bowls get so you have less blemishes on your metal. When I have to make brass patches to cover up cracks in the crooks of instruments I work on, I use a 1/2 inch thick piece of lead that is roughly 5 inches by 8 inches. Place the piece of brass on it and then use a hammer to smack a bent piece of steel on to the brass. The brass pushes in the lead and takes the form of the steel, which is approximately the radius of the crook that needs patching. A cool thing you could also use if you aren't using metal that is too thick or hot, is something we use to cast crooks and bores. It is called Jett Sett http://www.lonniesinc.com/Products/Tools/Bench_Accessories/jett_sett.html Heat it up in boiling water, form a mold of what you want to cast and go nuts. You can hammer on it apparently, but I am not sure how hard. Then if you want a new mold, just reheat.
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Jan 7, 2011 00:14
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Incoming  bomb:Ambrose: I ordered my anvil from Seattle. Don't get that 75# princess auto anvil, I've looked at it and it does not impress me at all. I know it says "cast steel" but I don't believe it, I'm pretty sure it's cast iron. Also that horn is a total joke. Flat and painted, feh, that'll chip off in no time and everything you hit on it will have an awful texture. I've posted it several times now (in the op too) about that 4x4" chunk of solid 4140, that thing would make an awesome first/portable anvil, and it's quite inexpensive. Presumably you could buy something like that locally if you have a good steel shop in town. Sledge, machinist, and ball peen hammers can be bought at hardware stores. Specialty hammers can be more difficult to source locally. I'm 'lucky' to live in Calgary which has a lot of ranch and farmland around it, as such there are a lot of horses, and horses need farriers to look after their shoes. So there is a farrier supply shop in my city. I got a rounding hammer and my awesome scale cleaning brush from them. You can get farrier anvils and such from them too, but they're generally pretty light. I bought some 4140 to make a straight peen, and diagonal peen hammers from, but I haven't had time to make the handle drift yet. I use my ball peen hammer for all my punch/drift/chisel work when possible since the store bought punches and chisels are usually hard all the way up the to striking point and it can mark the poo poo out of the hammer face. My ball peen hammer is pretty much useless for forging anything on the flat side (I have better options) so you may as well get some mileage out of it and keep your other hammer faces nice and smooth. Steel should be easy to get at structural steel suppliers, they usually carry a good assortment of solid round and square bar, along with strap iron in varying flavours. Specialty metal (bits of cut plate, certain tool steels) can be found online ($$) or if you're lucky there might be a shop in town that caters to that. Ask at your local welding shop, they will know good places to get metal. Tongs you make yourself if you have time, or you can order them online. Maybe you have an active auction community where you are, those can be good sources too. I make my own (they are terrible) and I have some that were given to me. If you can take a course locally usually they get you to make some tongs as a first project, so that's a good start. Luckily, tongs are something that you can make without first having to have tongs, if that makes sense. Just make sure you have some welding gloves to protect yourself, and a water bucket to keep the part you're holding cool. Rivets are a pain in the rear end to get. They're small, they're cheap, but I have never seen a hardware store carry them. I get all of mine at blacksmithbolt.com, order in bunches, everything up to 25# is a single box, I think. Shipping is the most expensive part. You can make these too, but you need a good vise and a head tool. (get some thick steel, heat it up, pound a ball bearing halfway into it, blam, you've got a half-rear end rivet header) Files, rasps, pliers, rulers, squares and soapstone things are all available at princess auto and Canadian tire. Get a good centre punch from someone else though, the ones at PA are all kinda thin. I have one that's made from 1/2" hex bar that I got at Calgary Fasteners (any place with a name like "fasteners" will carry high quality tools, they're expensive, but worth it). Get the big loving hex bar cold chisels from PA, they're not the best tool steel in the world, but they work well enough, and for the price they cannot be beat. I buy extra chisels from them when they're on sale, I make punches and things from them and they hold up satisfactorily. I think I made a rectangular hole punch from a 7/8ths hex bar chisel that cost me 4 bucks and 20 minutes of my time, probably would have cost 60-70 bucks from oldworldanvils or blacksmith supply or whoever. You'll want a good plug-in drill (not a cordless) with a 1/2" keyed chuck on it, the hand-tightening chucks are fine for drywall and wood, but they can't generally stand up to metal work. Get something better than mastercraft. Milwaukee or makita or something like that. Watson drill bits are wonderful. (fastener stores) Princess auto sales are great for starting your angle grinder collection. I have a tiny 4" one with a simple on/off switch that I got for 20 bucks, I use it with a little cut-off disk (I wore out my first one's motor by being a moron, but if you just cut stuff with it it will last forever). The 4 1/2" one with a trigger is good, don't get the one with a switch, I use that one with a braided wire cup. I also have a 4.5" Milwaukee and a 4.5" Bosch that I use for actual grinding and flap disc sanding respectively, got them at the fastener type stores. The 4.5" Mil loving owns but they're too expensive to have four of them laying around for all the different jobs you need them for. The forge you make yourself or order online. Maybe you can find an old coal forge at an auction or something. I never had any luck with that, I work full time and can never get to them. Are you looking for something else specifically? Let me know, I might be able to help. Jovial: I made a lovely support for my tractor's 3 point hitch draw bar so I could tow my tent trailer around and out of the way of where it was. Neighbour's house is moving in soon and they might need to put some beams there and slide them onto their foundation. Unfortunately I tried to bend it while it was too cold and it cracked, so I need to weld it. It's kinda neat how I made it though, I joined it with a flat bar that I ground down and made tenons out of, and a rectangular punched hole on the uprights. It worked fine despite being cracked. I will fix it (weld the crack) eventually and take pictures. For your trailer ball idea, you shouldn't have to weld a 1" shank on it, they usually come with 1" shanks already. Sure, it's round and threaded, but since it's a ball on top, who cares if it rotates in the hardy? If you're concerned about it moving, get some square bar of the right size, drill and tap it, thread the ball hitch into it, and use that in the hardy. If you can heat up a big piece of iron, you can use the trailer ball to form your spoon swage, place it and hit it with a hammer into your future swage until it's deep enough for you. Use the biggest hammer you have (10-20# sledge would work nicely) and get a helper maybe.
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Jan 7, 2011 01:29
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quote:Are you looking for something else specifically? Let me know, I might be able to help Nothing in particular; I'm mostly concerned with the anvil, seeing as how forges are pretty straightforward in design and you can make nearly any tooling you need once you have the basics. It seems like you end up needing things like hardy/pritchel holes for anything more than basic shaping, and any improvised anvil's gonna lack that. Or maybe I'll just get a 300-pound Peddinghaus and hope like poo poo I end up getting into it.
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Jan 7, 2011 02:10
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I just got a Miller Pro Hobby Welding Mask for $50 at a pawn shop. Haggled down from $80. Gonna be a nice upgrade from my Jackson fixed shade!
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Jan 7, 2011 03:08
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Slung Blade posted:You'll want a good plug-in drill (not a cordless) with a 1/2" keyed chuck on it, the hand-tightening chucks are fine for drywall and wood, but they can't generally stand up to metal work. Get something better than mastercraft. Milwaukee or makita or something like that. I'm not a metalworker but I used to drill aluminum all day with a Milwaukee 1/2" Magnum. They're great drills. Also the fan blades work great for clearing shavings once you're done since they move an obscene amount of air. My experiences are all with considerably older models, but from what I've heard they haven't changed much.
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Jan 7, 2011 05:13
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Slung Blade posted:Watson drill bits are wonderful. (fastener stores)
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Jan 7, 2011 14:50
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If you have a good vise (which is handy regardless of metal working, it's good for all kinds of poo poo) you can get away with not having a proper hardy in your bashing target. Yeah, I love blowing away shavings with the big cooling fans that some drills have, that's fun. Good for clearing sandpaper residue out of the shop too. Watson drill bits are a brand. Nice drill bits with hex on the end, makes it nice and easy to chuck in. Good steel too.
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Jan 7, 2011 18:09
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Slung Blade posted:...Watson drill bits are a brand. Nice drill bits with hex on the end, makes it nice and easy to chuck in. Good steel too. The keyless chucks in hand-held drills tend not to grab as hard as the keyed ones. ----- By the by--sharp drills make a big difference when you're drilling metals, especially steel. You can sharpen them on a bench grinder by hand, but it's not nearly as good as when they're done right. One of my side-projects is to build a decent sharpening setup that can do 6-facet points, since the commercially-made ones that can do it all cost so much. The Darex V390 is about the cheapest one that can do regular split-points properly, and it costs $1500. ~
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Jan 7, 2011 19:45
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The smallest watson bit I have is 3/8th. Anything smaller than that I just use disposable drill index cheapies for just that situation. And yeah, sharp bits are so much better.
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Jan 7, 2011 23:14
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Slung Blade posted:...Watson drill bits are a brand. Nice drill bits with hex on the end, makes it nice and easy to chuck in. Good steel too. Google doesn't get any useful results for "watson drill bits". ~
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Jan 8, 2011 01:32
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I welded a thing! It's actually (mostly) square, the crazy tilt is lens distortion. I still need to add casters, holders for hammer, wire brush and welding gun, bits of sheetmetal to hang the angle grinders, and hangers for clamps and leads (for now I just stuck a nail puller in the tube end to hang the wires on). Anything I'm forgetting? It was originally going to have four legs, but I decided it really didn't need that much support -- this is pretty hefty tube. I considered going with two legs, but the third was needed to pull it back square after the first two ended up not quite straight. The cinderblock behind is the previous welder stand. If I find a deal on some thick plate, I might add feet instead of wheels and turn it into a table.
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Jan 8, 2011 03:07
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Bad Angus! Bad!
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Delivery McGee posted:I welded a thing! I LOVE it! I like it better than my own work surface. I may have to be on the lookout for an old metal filing cabinet now...
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Jan 8, 2011 03:22
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ZOMG! I love your helping hands. Seems like you never have enough hands when you are trying to build something. You need a two hands to hold the bolt, nut and washer, then you need two more hands to nudge the thing into alighnment. We all know how extra arms would be totally boss 
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Jan 8, 2011 04:05
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jovial_cynic posted:I LOVE it! I like it better than my own work surface. I may have to be on the lookout for an old metal filing cabinet now... I thought about going down to the Habitat ReStore and getting a filing cabinet to build around, but I already had that little drawerthing and decided to use it so I can keep the stick welder on the bottom shelf. I figure the drawers can hold my extra electrodes and grinding wheels, and I'll hang all the tools on the sides of the thing. Now I just need to figure out what to put where to be able to get everything on it. I'm thinking hammer loop and grinders on the side opposite the drawers, hangers for the leads on the side in front of the machine (coming off the legs), and a bar to hang clamps on sticking off the leg under the drawers, about where the clamp handles are in the picture. I've also got a 3-outlet extension cord (outdoor, with covers for the plugs to keep the grinder dust out) that I'm going to somehow attach to it so I can have everything plugged in and only one cord across the room. It's 16"x19" and 25" tall, if anybody has ideas on how to lay out the tool hangers. I'm the worst engineer ever -- I took three years of drafting in high school, intro to engineering in college (then decided gently caress the math, gonna be a photographer), yet I did not make plans for this. I looked at other people's welding carts on the Miller and Hobart forums, found some metal, measured the little cabinet, and cut the metal to size and welded it up without a drawing. Wait, that might make me the best engineer -- gently caress BLUEPRINTS, JUST DO THAT poo poo AND IT ACTUALLY WORKS ON THE FIRST TRY. I need more clamps. What aisle are the Vise-Grip-type ones on at Harbor Freight? I couldn't find them. They'd be a lot easier to use than the C-clamps when I need to adjust a warped piece and clamp it while leaning on it (in this project, the last piece of both rectangles and two of the legs when attaching them to the bottom frame). I still need to get a couple of short filing cabinets -- there are extra doors stored in the crawlspace, would make good tables. The workbenches that came with the garage barely hold all my tools. This is my current small-project work table, immediately after construction.  It now has a 3" vise on the corner to the viewer's left, and a fiberglass blanket draped above/behind/on it to keep from setting the wall on fire. Big projects, like the cart, get built on the concrete floor (with another piece of sheetmetal similar to the tabletop propped up to keep from blinding people driving by, since I leave the garage door open for ventilation). Edit: note the mailbox flag under the table. The mailbox that came with the house had been baseball-batted and was dented and missing its door, so we got a new one. It came with the plastic flag you see here; I cut, drilled, and repainted the metal flag from the old mailbox because gently caress that plastic poo poo. The new mailbox is mounted on a bit of plywood, though, because I couldn't get the rusted bolts off the old one's metal bracket. that was before i got the angle grinder, but now  . I still have the old mailbox, though, so I'll cut it off the bracket when the plywood rots.
Chillbro Baggins fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Jan 8, 2011 |
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Jan 8, 2011 06:47
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edmund745 posted:Where do you get them from? (also what country are you in?) Calgary Fasteners, I'm in Canada. Yeah, that's weird, I can't find them online either.
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Jan 8, 2011 12:56
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Slung Blade posted:on the topic of hex shanked drill bits It's the wrong search term, try looking for 'hex drill bits'. http://www.amazon.com/Makita-784000--UltraLok-16-Inch-Assortment/dp/B000244YGA/ref=sr_1_9?s=power-hand-tools&ie=UTF8&qid=1294508523&sr=1-9 http://www.google.com/products/cata...ved=0CG4Q8wIwAA http://www.toolbarn.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=hex+drill+bits+drill+chuck going to many of those sites lets you specify manufacturer where you can say 'watson' and see bits specifically made by watson; or get some makita ones.
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Jan 8, 2011 18:48
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I was thinking about starting a separate thread just for welding/fab questions, troubleshooting, projects, resources, links to goatse, jobs, advice, flaming, and tom fuckery. Or should we keep the conversation restricted to this thread? Seems like there are a lot of welding talk in this thread. I did a quick search and saw that there isn't one already in the DIY forum. Any thoughts?
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Jan 10, 2011 01:39
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duck hunt posted:I was thinking about starting a separate thread just for welding/fab questions, troubleshooting, projects, resources, links to goatse, jobs, advice, flaming, and tom fuckery. Or should we keep the conversation restricted to this thread? Seems like there are a lot of welding talk in this thread. I did a quick search and saw that there isn't one already in the DIY forum. Any thoughts? Welding seems to fall neatly into "metalwork." I think leaving it here makes the most sense.
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Jan 10, 2011 02:20
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Point taken.
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Jan 10, 2011 03:16
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Hi, my name is The Scientist and I had a bad metalworking day. I went to a small off-the-beaten-track park that's right on a river: you know how they call where the space shuttle "The Cape" or "Cape Kennedy"? Well it's a cape that juts out between the Atlantic ocean and a brackish water body called the "Indian River Lagoon". This park was right on the edge of the lagoon/river looking east towards the Atlantic and the cape - you can see several pads and the giant VAB (vehicle assembly building). So I was at this park, chilling, doing my own thing, I felt more comfortable grinding and making a lot of noise and stuff than I would in the parking lot of our appt. When I got there, there were 3 separate, alone dudes that drove into the park by themselves. They were going in and out of the men's room the whole time. Some dudes would show up and do nothing but go into the men's room.  This continued all day, even when their were families there, with small children. In and out. I'd be filing or sanding a small part or something and over my shoulder would be an incredibly, overly friendly single, alone guy wanting to know what I was up to. I'd tell him perfectly politely. Then he'd go spend 15 minutes in the men's room. I made a little progress on what I was working on: it's a pair of parallel pliers made from some 1/8"x1" rectangular rod. I ground off the scale, then sanded with a drum, then worked my way up through the grits all the way to 320 plus WD40. Then I look up and notice I'm the only one in the park. I had seen a handful of families come and go, but even more men that were unusually interested in the men's room. Then I look behind me and in the parking lot is just a dude, by himself, in his parked explorer, just lurking. Really starting to get creepy vibes. Stays there for some 15-20 mins. Filing and keeping and eye over your own shoulder sure does suck. Having a pretty good feeling that this dude didn't have good intentions. Started to get worried about it. Went over to my car to get "something". Got it, and walked over to his. This dude is CREEPY as gently caress. Me:  Him:  "You waiting on somebody?""No, I'm just hanging out. Smoking my cigarette.""There's not gonna be any men having sex in the men's room.""Who the gently caress are YOU to say that? You're taking up the whole pavilion for people to have their recreation?" (I was taking up one picnic table in the main pavillion, and all the gently caress by myself in the whole place)"Your recreation?"Stammers, is off-put, gets out of the car IN A HURRY. "LISTEN, I'M A LITTLE BIT OLDER THAN YOU..." [as in, them's fightin' words"] EDIT:At this point the dude is getting out of the car, squaring up to me with full intent of aggressive action Then we heard a click and we both look down and I've whipped out the blade portion of these combination brass knuckles/switch blade. "[indignant]Oh, you've got a knife... We'll this is a public park. I'm gonna sit right here and mind my own business... ""Keep it that way." and walked away. Went back to working. Kept working for a while and looked up and finally saw him leaving... after some while. Really feel pretty bad about the whole thing. Not sure which is worse, what I had to do or the reason I had to do it. I sure have to do a lot of work just to get a nice, even finish with close tolerances... And I don't mean having to threaten people with a knife. I feel like my sanding and finishing methods are really inefficient. Then I get home and somebody's creamed a mains line pole and we have no power for 2 hours. Bad day. EDIT: I think I'm just gonna give up. None of my efforts have ever been fruitful in any way. I'm not very good at it. And I'm never gonna get the equipment I yearn so hard for, nor even a space to work without the ever present threat of rape/kidnapping again. gently caress it. Sorry its so unreadable, its not that important anyway. Trying to forget it already. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) whose tuggin fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Jan 10, 2011 |
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Jan 10, 2011 03:50
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Wait...WHAT? That was pretty hard to follow, please edit to show what you said and what he said. EDIT: So to be clear you just committed multiple felonies and misdemeanors and then posted about them on a public forum known for getting people arrested. In this story you saw a person in a car minding their own business and in order to prevent them from having gay sex in a men's room, you approached them hostilely then brandished a knife/brass knuckles combination. Correct? Quoting for crazy: The Scientist posted:Hi, my name is The Scientist and I had a bad metalworking day. AnomalousBoners fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Jan 10, 2011 |
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Jan 10, 2011 04:21
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No it was more like me observing multiple acts of indecency occur repeatedly time after time within close proximity to minors and families, completely innocent people. We actually had a state representative here get arrested for doing this exact thing - propositioning a plain clothes officer for sex in a public park mens room. I knew what was going on, I assure you man. This dude leering at me while I'm all alone in a public park. Confront the dude, and have to respond to aggression to assert unwillingness to comply in the face of physical menacing. Didn't personally innitiate any agression. In fact, really de-escalated it. Really, really have do not condone sexual indecency with minors involved in any way. Initially felt personally threatened, then was physically threatened. Not proud of my actions, but stand by them. Although def. starting to wish I posted this somewhere more appropriate, maybe e/n, or not at all.
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Jan 10, 2011 04:41
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Ok so to be clear of facts. Not how you felt, just facts about actions: He was sitting in his car. He had not talked to you or if he had, he had not made any threat toward you. You approached his car and begun a conversation with him. A conversation between you two became escalated and he got out of his car. You felt threatened when he got out of his car. You pulled a knife/brass knuckles combo on him.
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Jan 10, 2011 04:44
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How many times did you call the police that day?
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Jan 10, 2011 04:45
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I didn't have a cell phone. Went straight to the sheriff's office after he had left. Wanted to ask them why this park wasn't already being patrolled regularly. The "Sherrif's Post" was apparently an empty building under construction. addendum: This was outside my cities boundries. TPD doesn't have jurisdiction there. BCSO was who I was trying to get in touch with. The office was completely void of any people. Drove by my cities office, closed for the night. whose tuggin fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Jan 10, 2011 |
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Jan 10, 2011 04:50
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Yeah.. I work for a park system and my major is parks and rec management. Mens bathroom activities are ridiculously common. Our park rangers have to chase people out of the parking lot by one of our lakes on a daily basis. e: VVV Vendetta much? Hypnolobster fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Jan 10, 2011 |
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Jan 10, 2011 04:57
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Geeee this situation makes me uncomfortable, also I believe people are committing a crime. I could -get in my car and leave to find the nearest payphone OR -accost this person I suspect of being a SEXUAL DEVIANT and then pull a knife on him and then post about it on the internet. Clearly the the one where I go to jail is the correct decision.
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Jan 10, 2011 05:20
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If you were asked by a 3rd party, what would you say is your motivation for making me feel worse about something I already feel bad about?
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Jan 10, 2011 05:46
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Maybe so that the next time The Scientist finds himself in an uncomfortable situation, he chooses to de-escalate by, say, loving leaving, instead of escalate and also break laws, by, say, starting a confrontation during which he displays a weapon. I mean I'm sorry you feel lovely about what happened, but as unappealing as gay sex in public restrooms might be, it is not something worth starting a fight about. Alone. In the woods. With no phone. And maybe creating a situation in which the other person chooses to escalate further after you escalate, resulting perhaps in someone being hurt or killed.
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Jan 10, 2011 06:21
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| # ? May 24, 2024 22:13 |
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I'm not trying to make you feel bad. Honestly I am trying to discourage you from ever making any of these decisions again. If this all didn't seem completely made up I would call the police. It is legitimately terrifying that you: -Think you are the moral police to the point of having a weapon with you while acting as the moral police. -Initiated a conflict while carrying said weapon. -Escalated the conflict and the presented said weapon in a threatening manner. -Defend initiating said conflict as though you were not the one that started it because someone in a public park was looking at you and that made you feel threatened. Do you do realize that had that person had a gun in his car, he would have the legal right to shoot and kill you in the state of Florida? Do you realize that under 790.09 owning brass knuckles is a 2nd degree misdemeanor? Its like you have no concept of how morally and legally in the wrong you are here. Also if youre going to have a weapon in Florida read this whole thing: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0790/0790ContentsIndex.html I bet I could find at least three laws you admitted to breaking in JUST chapter 790.
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Jan 10, 2011 07:00
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