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Kitsch!
Jul 27, 2006

God made Adam and Eve, not Fluffy and Eve.
edit: decided it was better for the small/stupid questions thread.

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slipped
Jul 12, 2001
hey guys, dumb question here.. struggling to pay off my bloody student loans. have 38k at prime + 3% (6%) on a line of credit. Would I save money by converting this line of credit to a loan and having a fixed rate payment schedule set up? I know very little other than the fact that I pay more than I'd like in interest. I can afford to generally put down 1-1.5k a month on it.

LorneReams
Jun 27, 2003
I'm bizarre

zantar posted:

My fiance and I are getting married in october, and we are also looking to possibly buy a house before that if the opportunity comes up (it's the one we are renting.)

With a credit score of 735 and her 750, would it make a difference to the lender for us to wait until after the marriage to get a home loan?

No they don't care. In order of importance it's going to be DTI, then FICO (which is sorta binary, pass/fail), and then LTV will determine your pricing mostly. Conventional mortgages are pretty standard.

CelestialScribe
Jan 16, 2008
I posted this in the budget thread, but I'm afraid it may get missed so I'll post it here as well:

My wife and I have been budgeting pretty strongly this year, after managing to pay off a small debt to my parents last March or so. We bring in about $AU75k a year combined.

As of right now, we have: four months put away in expenses. Only four months because the job market is incredibly good where I am, we can survive on one salary and it would be very easy to get a temp. job very quickly.

We also have $1,000 in a separate emergency fund.

We budget to the penny and after getting kicked in the rear end by some goons last year, I've managed to create budgets for ongoing expenses such as car repairs, etc. So we're all set.

I've projected that by the end of this year, we'll have saved up just over $20,000, if all goes to plan. My question is - what should we do with it? Do we just keep plugging it away? Eventually I'd like to save up over $150k for a house down payment, (housing is extraordinarily expensive in Australia), but I wonder if it's worth investing some of that elsewhere?

Just seeking some other opinions.

Note: retirement is paid into a super account by my employer, 9% of salary. I could put some extra in there, I suppose.

moana
Jun 18, 2005

one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web
Not sure if things are much different in Australia, but check out the house buying megathread for possible places to store the down payment. Usually you'll want to keep it in a lower-risk place. Your retirement is probably mostly in equities, which is very risky if you want to pull the money out within a few years. Other options include bonds, money market accounts, CDs, high-interest savings accounts... I was very conservative with my down payment and just kept it in a mix of a money market fund and CDs.

ladyweapon
Nov 6, 2010

It reads all over his face,
like he's an Italian.
Whats the popular opinion on a credit union pulling your report to open a checking account? The CU my job has ties to wants to pull my credit just to open it and "to see what other services we can offer you." I just want checking, but apparently that doesn't matter. Should I check out other credit unions (I can get into at least 1 other through family) or have banks (and CU's) always pulled credit to open an account? I'm not talking about Chexsystems, they pull that as well though which is fine because I'm not in Chex.

e. the only reason I ask is because my score is 571. Its bad as it is, I don't want to make it worse if I don't have to.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound
I've got a friend who's considering defaulting and walking out on his home mortgage and asked me for advice because I read enough online that he thinks I understand financial poo poo.

What are some good resources I can point him to on this topic? I know some people are doing exactly what he's considering and it can be a good idea, but what are the consequences etc. if he does? Where's a good place to send him that isn't just a bank relentlessly flogging deceit at him in order to maintain as much grasp as possible on his wallet?

CelestialScribe
Jan 16, 2008

moana posted:

Not sure if things are much different in Australia, but check out the house buying megathread for possible places to store the down payment. Usually you'll want to keep it in a lower-risk place. Your retirement is probably mostly in equities, which is very risky if you want to pull the money out within a few years. Other options include bonds, money market accounts, CDs, high-interest savings accounts... I was very conservative with my down payment and just kept it in a mix of a money market fund and CDs.

Great, thanks!

Contra Duck
Nov 4, 2004

#1 DAD

CelestialScribe posted:

I posted this in the budget thread, but I'm afraid it may get missed so I'll post it here as well:

My wife and I have been budgeting pretty strongly this year, after managing to pay off a small debt to my parents last March or so. We bring in about $AU75k a year combined.

As of right now, we have: four months put away in expenses. Only four months because the job market is incredibly good where I am, we can survive on one salary and it would be very easy to get a temp. job very quickly.

We also have $1,000 in a separate emergency fund.

We budget to the penny and after getting kicked in the rear end by some goons last year, I've managed to create budgets for ongoing expenses such as car repairs, etc. So we're all set.

I've projected that by the end of this year, we'll have saved up just over $20,000, if all goes to plan. My question is - what should we do with it? Do we just keep plugging it away? Eventually I'd like to save up over $150k for a house down payment, (housing is extraordinarily expensive in Australia), but I wonder if it's worth investing some of that elsewhere?

Just seeking some other opinions.

Note: retirement is paid into a super account by my employer, 9% of salary. I could put some extra in there, I suppose.

Money that goes into super is (barring extraordinary circumstances) locked away until retirement so don't put money in there if you've saving for a home.

As moana said, since you'll want to access it reasonably soon you'll want to go for something low-risk. I'm in a similar situation to you right now and I've got most of mine in term deposits. 12 month term deposits are running at a little over 6% right now which is pretty reasonable.

Zeta Taskforce
Jun 27, 2002

2508084 posted:

Whats the popular opinion on a credit union pulling your report to open a checking account? The CU my job has ties to wants to pull my credit just to open it and "to see what other services we can offer you." I just want checking, but apparently that doesn't matter. Should I check out other credit unions (I can get into at least 1 other through family) or have banks (and CU's) always pulled credit to open an account? I'm not talking about Chexsystems, they pull that as well though which is fine because I'm not in Chex.

e. the only reason I ask is because my score is 571. Its bad as it is, I don't want to make it worse if I don't have to.

The credit union that I work at started doing it earlier last year. I don't agree with it, but I don't make those decisions. One credit pull is not going to hurt you. Your 571 wasn't the result of credit pulls. And it is conceivable that they might be able to work with a 571 and allow you to refinance something at a savings to you. On the other hand I hear you loud and clear that you don't want more credit and you are against the principle of it.

It is a fairly recent development that banks and credit unions pulled credit when people open accounts, but it is becoming widespread. I can't tell you what to do. If they are no better than your other banking options, then you don't have to join, but I can't force you to wage a silent protest of one if they are otherwise a good fit in every other way.

ladyweapon
Nov 6, 2010

It reads all over his face,
like he's an Italian.

Zeta Taskforce posted:

Your 571 wasn't the result of credit pulls. And it is conceivable that they might be able to work with a 571 and allow you to refinance something at a savings to you. On the other hand I hear you loud and clear that you don't want more credit and you are against the principle of it.

Yeah I know, but I don't want to "papercut myself to death" as the phrase goes. I don't have anything to refinance, either. I rent my apartment, I have no car, my credit card is at zero. I just don't want to deal with my bank anymore. Like you said, a credit pull won't kill me. I worry too much, especially considering I don't plan on doing anything on credit for a very, very long time.

qirex
Feb 15, 2001

Is MyFICO still the best way to get actual scores? I'm asking because they're charging $20 each for TransUnion and Equifax whereas the old "3 in 1" was like $35. Also is it worth paying for Experian since there's no guarantee they'll give me the same score as a lender would get anyway? I may start the mortgage application process soon and want to be prepared.

UCS Hellmaker
Mar 29, 2008
Toilet Rascal

qirex posted:

Is MyFICO still the best way to get actual scores? I'm asking because they're charging $20 each for TransUnion and Equifax whereas the old "3 in 1" was like $35. Also is it worth paying for Experian since there's no guarantee they'll give me the same score as a lender would get anyway? I may start the mortgage application process soon and want to be prepared.

https://www.creditkarma.com seems to be pretty good. It doesn't tell you anything other then the actual score however

edit: It is completely free however

qirex
Feb 15, 2001

UCS Hellmaker posted:

https://www.creditkarma.com seems to be pretty good. It doesn't tell you anything other then the actual score however

edit: It is completely free however
It looks like that doesn't get your real FICO scores though, it's one they model. I want to find out all 3 [well, 2 really] since there was a 40 point spread last time I checked and most of my dings from back in the day when I was broke are dropping off now. I'll probably get the two I can from myFICO and live with it, the score straight from Experian isn't even your real FICO anymore.

zelah
Dec 1, 2004

Diabetes, you are not invited to my pizza party.
What is a good rule of thumb, if any, on how much of a credit limit you should have or how often, if ever, you should request an increase in your limit?

Background: I have 1 through Bank of America with a $2,500 limit and 1 card through the GAP that I haven't used since 2007 and is down to a $124 limit, with $0 of that available? It seems that the account is closed, from inactivity? Is that something that happens? I guess I can call and find out for sure. Their website makes no mention of it except for when I was clicking around and under "Request a credit line increase" it gave me an error saying my account is closed but I don't think I would have done that.

Back in November I decided to fill out the "request an line of credit increase" form on BoA's site because it was at $1200 and I had recently started actually saving and since $1200 is less than 1 months rent I figured hey, why not? They bumped it up to $2,500 and for the last few months I've been carrying a balance of between $0 and $100 on it. Does it make sense to request another increase sometime this year? Up to $5,000 maybe? I make a little under $50,000 a year, monthly bills/rent come out to about 1550 a month, and karmacredit puts me at 719. I have no idea how this stuff works though so I'm not sure how much that stuff matters in situations like this.

Medenmath
Jan 18, 2003
Is there a "best" site to get a credit report from? I got one a year or two ago but I can't remember where I ordered it from. I don't care about the actual number, just the report part - if I recall the site I got it through wanted money for the score but gave me list of accounts and their statuses for free. I think.

Qaz Kwaz
Jul 24, 2003
What's your email? I've got some shitty posts that you NEED to read.
I've heard that annualcreditreport.com is the one--free every year.

Medenmath
Jan 18, 2003
That's perfect. Thanks!

TheUnhorse
Oct 29, 2010

Smartest little intel sperg in the whole world
Hey guys, my wife and I are seeking advice as first time serious investors. We've dabbled with buying stocks but our performance was terrible so we got out of that pretty quickly. The only "investments" we have are our Thrift Savings Plans, and our savings account, which has a negligible interest rate.

We have a little more than $8000 dollars we'd like to invest, but we really don't know how or what to seriously invest in. My mother-in-law suggested we do some CD laddering since we're so young (We're both 21), so I looked into that, and it's something I'd consider, but I read that it's probably best to invest in 5 separate 5-year-CDs because they will quickly outperform a 1-year-CD's poor interest rate, and the early termination fee can potentially be low enough to still make a profit. We'd probably drop $5000 in that, are there any suggestions that would be better than CDs? We could possibly get a full $10,000 if it will get us in the door with a better investment vehicle. Please note this $10,000 is completely detached from our savings, our emergency savings, savings for our son, etc. Any help is appreciated.

alariens421
Dec 17, 2009
I owe student loans to AES in the amount of $17000. Last month I called and had the minimum payments reduced to the lowest amount.

However, last week I got a surprise when I found I owe money to dl.ed.gov to the tune of $13000. Not only that, but they apparantly started accumulating interest 68 days ago. LUCKILY I was able to pay off the $460 without a late fee.

My question is who do I talk to about consolidating both these student loans and then lowering the minimum payments. I can list more details if it helps.

Wafulz
Jul 7, 2004

Is this what we've come to?
Canadian Tire (yes, that Canadian Tire) offers TFSAs at 3.5% interest. Has anyone used them before?

Zeta Taskforce
Jun 27, 2002

TheUnhorse posted:

Hey guys, my wife and I are seeking advice as first time serious investors. We've dabbled with buying stocks but our performance was terrible so we got out of that pretty quickly. The only "investments" we have are our Thrift Savings Plans, and our savings account, which has a negligible interest rate.

We have a little more than $8000 dollars we'd like to invest, but we really don't know how or what to seriously invest in. My mother-in-law suggested we do some CD laddering since we're so young (We're both 21), so I looked into that, and it's something I'd consider, but I read that it's probably best to invest in 5 separate 5-year-CDs because they will quickly outperform a 1-year-CD's poor interest rate, and the early termination fee can potentially be low enough to still make a profit. We'd probably drop $5000 in that, are there any suggestions that would be better than CDs? We could possibly get a full $10,000 if it will get us in the door with a better investment vehicle. Please note this $10,000 is completely detached from our savings, our emergency savings, savings for our son, etc. Any help is appreciated.

You should check out the long term investing thread. I don't agree with your mother-in-law. That advice might have worked in the 70's and 80's when 5 year CD's did yield 7% or 8%. You could have made the case that yeah, you are not going to get rich and your money won't double like it might in the stock market, but it was safe and stable, and over time it will grow if you can keep saving.

That doesn't work now. I just checked ING and a 5 year CD yields 1.25%. I imagine you could shop around some, and do a bit better, but I doubt much better. That rate is the same across the maturity ladder, so you gain zero by having your money tied up that long. After 5 years, your $8000 would become $8513. That is not enough to keep up inflation for the things you actually need to save for.

Equities have done poorly too over the last decade, but the fact is that they are the best option over mid to long term time frames

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2892928

moana
Jun 18, 2005

one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Zeta Taskforce posted:

That doesn't work now. I just checked ING and a 5 year CD yields 1.25%.
Yeah that is incredibly low. Even online savings account like SmartyPig are higher than CDs. The Unhorse, what are you saving this for? Your timeline will be the best determinant of what investments you should be looking at.

TheUnhorse
Oct 29, 2010

Smartest little intel sperg in the whole world
Hey thanks for the help guys. That's what I thought about CD laddering too. USAA has a 2ish% rate for its 5 years, but I didn't think it would be that great, thought I would ask though. I'll check out the thread for sure. We're not really sure what we're saving for, and we're thinking of starting a Roth IRA separately from these savings and our TSP.

We were going to use the money as a down-payment for a house but the military moves us around alot, it'd be hard to turn around and try to sell a house purchased within a few-year timeframe, and we're not sure we're interested in being absentee landlords for properties in other states.

So I suppose we're just saving it to be something "just in case." The preferred liquidity would be about 5-7ish years.

NativeAlien
Feb 7, 2008
I'm a 21 year old college student who'll be graduating in December at the end of this year. I am currently on a well paying internship, and I've budgeted my earnings as such that I have about $6000 in extra savings that I'm not sure what to do with. I'd like some advice on what I should do with this.

My current debt situation is that I'll have about $25,000 in student loans when I graduate.

From what I've gathered, my two best options are to either
A) Start a Roth IRA, put $5000 there and throw the other $1000 at the student loans
B) Put it all towards my loans

I was originally going to go with the Roth IRA as I want to get started on my retirement savings as soon as I can. However, is it a better idea to take off a chunk of my student loans when I can? My job situation after graduation is unknown, but I'd like to think that as an engineering student with a good gpa and a solid amount of work experience that my job chances aren't too bad. Nevertheless, I don't know what my income will be like at this time next year and I don't want to accumulate a ton of interest on my loans. Of course, if I do get a job I can start on a 401k at age 22. I'm just not sure how much missing that one year of retirement savings will matter in the long run.

Dead Pressed
Nov 11, 2009
It really depends on how conservative you want to be and which "experts" you want to listen to. I personally subscribe (for the most part) to Dave Ramsey. In short, his steps would be:

1) Set aside an emergency fund of $1,000 (which should be on top of what you know you will spend to survive until you're out of school)
2) Pay off debts
3) Then worry about retirement

I'm graduating in May, have a job locked up, and this is what I'm doing, personally. Albeit, I'll be hitting up my employer's 401 at max, then paying off debts with the rest.

slap me silly
Nov 1, 2009
Grimey Drawer
Assuming your loans are 6-7% like everybody else's, I too would suggest paying them off before you start a retirement account. However, because your employment future is up in the air, just hang on to that $6k in cash for now - unless you have a lot of other savings you're being coy about.

NativeAlien
Feb 7, 2008
I've already budgeted out enough to pay for my rent, gas, and monthly car payments for the rest of the year, and I could live with my parents for free if I didn't get a job upon graduation, so I'm not worried about those. I probably should have mentioned the car in the first post actually. It's a lease, which is a bad idea in retrospect but I didn't know anything about personal finance back then and my dad offered to help. It's up in 2.5 years, and I was planning to buy it in cash at $14k when it goes up (I really want to avoid interest on it), so I was planning on putting about $5000 of what I've earned now for that future payment, and save up the remaining $9000 later. I'd like to keep that money for that purpose but it can go wherever it would be best used.

I guess a summary of my original long term savings goals from this internship would be:

1. Enough to carry all my monthly payments for the rest of the year
2. $5000 towards the car when the lease goes up in 2013
3. $5000 to the Roth IRA
4. $1000 to throw at my student loans

My question in the first post was what to do with 3 and 4, but if it's better to put 2-4 all towards the student loans (minus $1000 in emergency cash) I could do that too.

Qaz Kwaz
Jul 24, 2003
What's your email? I've got some shitty posts that you NEED to read.
Can you dump the car? $14k is a LOT for a car at your age. It probably doesn't seem like it, with what everyone else is driving, but it is.

Like others said, it depends on how you feel about your job prospects.

1. (Baby) Emergency Fund
a. $1,000 (the Dave Ramsey approach. Small, but can handle most unexpected expenses, especially for a single guy)
b. 3-6 months of expenses (the "fully-funded emergency fund". Good if you aren't quite so confident in getting a job right away, though this would be much much less if you're living with your parents. I would really recommend doing that until you get a job. It'll save a ton of cash!)

2. Pay off debts (INCLUDING any car that you're driving. If you're paying towards something monthly that isn't a service, pay it off. I would lump your student loans in here)

3. If you didn't fully fund your emergency fund from step 1, do it here, otherwise start your retirement funding.

While it's true that you will miss out later from the compounding interest of your investments now, you're still really young, and the amount you save from the student loans (financially, by freeing up your income, and mentally) will be worth it.

NativeAlien
Feb 7, 2008
I don't HAVE to get the car, as I can always decide to buy a cheaper one when the time comes. It depends on how many miles I put on this one before the lease is up. Also, I know I can count on my dad for an interest free loan of a few thousand if I needed it, so I'm taking that into consideration. Nevertheless, the car isn't the highest priority by any means. Thanks for all the advice, I'm going to concentrate on my debts first.

DTaeKim
Aug 16, 2009

My parents just received two Chase Freedom credit cards. However, neither of them applied for a credit card recently. From what I can tell, they had a Chase credit card that expired in 2007 since their last payment was back then.

Neither of them asked for a new credit card from Chase. Are companies known to send a new credit card if the account has been inactive for a number of years?

anitsirK
May 19, 2005

DTaeKim posted:

Are companies known to send a new credit card if the account has been inactive for a number of years?

I had a company send me a new credit card when the old one expired, even though I hadn't used it in years. The first time I tried to use the new card, it didn't work, because they'd deactivated the account. So, yeah, they're perfectly willing to send new cards to inactive accounts (and they don't reactivate the account just because you called to activate the card).

DTaeKim
Aug 16, 2009

anitsirK posted:

I had a company send me a new credit card when the old one expired, even though I hadn't used it in years. The first time I tried to use the new card, it didn't work, because they'd deactivated the account. So, yeah, they're perfectly willing to send new cards to inactive accounts (and they don't reactivate the account just because you called to activate the card).

Thanks for the response. My parents just cut the card up and tossed it.

My Q-Face
Jul 8, 2002

A dumb racist who need to kill themselves

alariens421 posted:

I owe student loans to AES in the amount of $17000. Last month I called and had the minimum payments reduced to the lowest amount.

However, last week I got a surprise when I found I owe money to dl.ed.gov to the tune of $13000. Not only that, but they apparantly started accumulating interest 68 days ago. LUCKILY I was able to pay off the $460 without a late fee.

My question is who do I talk to about consolidating both these student loans and then lowering the minimum payments. I can list more details if it helps.

I owe student loans to AES to the tune of $8000 right now. I started in the high 20s, and my monthly bill was something in the neighborhood of $200 (I think. I never actually paid attention to it). I have made on-time payments for the life of the loans. (In actuality I haven't, Native Alien, Pay Attention I paid several thousand at once and had several months of $0 due, followed by paying 2-3x what my monthly payment would be, followed by several months of $0 due. I was still accruing interest, but my monthly payments were nil and I didn't have to worry about missing one if I couldn't afford it that month. Use any hiring bonus or found money (Or USAA Career Starter Loan at 2.5% :ninja: ) to make a dent and you'll never fall behind in payments as long as you have a job and make a token effort. Putting several times your monthly payments will put you way out ahead of what your monthly payments will be. I know of no other loan that acts this way.)

Because I technically made on-time payments for 36 months, I got a discount: the interest rate on all but two (of 10) of my loans is .47%. (those two are at 4%, for reasons I'm not clear on. Perhaps because I went over the Undergrad credit limit that semester, they're the only one with a fixed interest rate, all the others have an Adjustable. Or maybe that's the other way around)

If you can afford the minimum payments, I doubt you'll find a consolidation loan that will beat .47%. Unless you've already been late on payments, as missing your first payment will disqualify you for that discount.

Ernie McCracken
May 13, 2010
So apparently the fucks at Capital One cleverly decided to start charging annual membership fees to a previously no-annual-fee account I suspended (but foolishly did not close immediately) several years ago. This, obviously, seems shady on multiple fronts. Calling the indian customer service line is obviously non-productive. Do I have any recourse other than bitching on the internet?

qirex
Feb 15, 2001

Ernie McCracken posted:

So apparently the fucks at Capital One cleverly decided to start charging annual membership fees to a previously no-annual-fee account I suspended (but foolishly did not close immediately) several years ago. This, obviously, seems shady on multiple fronts. Calling the indian customer service line is obviously non-productive. Do I have any recourse other than bitching on the internet?

They did this to me years ago, I managed to get them to reverse the fees but when I said "if you don't put my card back to no fee I want to close my account" I ended up closing my account. They were horrible anyway, they didn't even have online balance checking and bill pay in like 2005.

LorneReams
Jun 27, 2003
I'm bizarre
They have to refund the fee if you close in 30 days.

shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010

Fun Shoe
Guys, I owe no man nothing in this world and would like to put away some money for the long term. My income is pretty variable and my expenses are negligible, it's a weird situation but I have that side of it taken care of on my own. Living on the road I have learned to place a severely decreased value on personal belongings, and about $3k I earmarked over the last couple months for some purchases that I decided were foolish are just sitting in checking. Right now I am still trying to work out my long-term life plan but I am not saving for a house or college or school or anything in particular so we will call this a generic mid-range investment because I am sure I will want one of those things within the next decade and am not looking to invest for retirement.

So I guess my question is, is $3k extra more than I should have sitting around in checking doing nothing for me, and if so where should I stick it? I have other savings but this is the money I want to put somewhere.

modig
Aug 20, 2002

shovelbum posted:

Guys, I owe no man nothing in this world and would like to put away some money for the long term. My income is pretty variable and my expenses are negligible, it's a weird situation but I have that side of it taken care of on my own. Living on the road I have learned to place a severely decreased value on personal belongings, and about $3k I earmarked over the last couple months for some purchases that I decided were foolish are just sitting in checking. Right now I am still trying to work out my long-term life plan but I am not saving for a house or college or school or anything in particular so we will call this a generic mid-range investment because I am sure I will want one of those things within the next decade and am not looking to invest for retirement.

So I guess my question is, is $3k extra more than I should have sitting around in checking doing nothing for me, and if so where should I stick it? I have other savings but this is the money I want to put somewhere.

It's common to recommend saving a few months expenses and having it in a easily accessible place. So $3k isn't way too much to have sitting in your checking account.

You could get some small returns and keep it available in a savings account.

If you want to hide it away for a long time (like retirement or for a house) you should open a Roth IRA and put it in there. This is an investment account, so you'll still need to buy investments. A solid choice is to invest in an index fund, which tries to track the overall US market. You can do this through a mutual fund like VTSMX or an ETF (like a stock share of a mutual fund) like VTI. The benefit of the Roth IRA is that earnings aren't taxed. (A normal IRA is better if you make more money, there is a cutoff at like $60k a year or so)

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a_pineapple
Dec 23, 2005


My current employer offers a 401k plan. I do not expect to be working with this employer in 2 more years.

Should I open a 401k with them right now?
Will my current employer's 401k transfer to my next employer's 401k?
If my next employer does not offer a 401k, what happens to the money in the account?

edit: I am single and my income is around $30k. I don't plan to completely retire until I'm 60-something.

a_pineapple fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Jan 23, 2011

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