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PoptartsNinja posted:Then again, there may very well be a reason for the secondary objective. Perhaps even relating to the next mission. oh we are barely scratched we are going to take them out, the question is what location and who to target.
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Jan 25, 2011 17:29
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Axe-man posted:I'm not sure, i'm actually torn between falling back to pressing our advantage, right now they are mostly split up and focusing fire on lights usually works as effective as it does for tanks. Well you probably don't want to advance into them even with the current advantage you've got. The terrain in that area kind of sucks, and it looks like the Dragon should have clear field of fire into most of that area (because he's up on a high elevation hill, right?) Getting peppered with LRMs and letting the Dragon bring it's PPC into play while you muck around with the rest of the lance could lead to a lot of quick deaths. If you want to take out the entire lance, maybe pull back near that hill north of our 3 mechs (to roughly 1508), feigning retreat, move the Jenner to 1007, and use him as the hammer against the rest of the lance's anvil. That should neutralize a lot of the advantages the Dragon would have in providing overwatch, and make him choose between coming down off that favorable terrain or watching you butcher the rest of his lance.
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Jan 25, 2011 17:33
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'sup Foo And also, the Griffin is as /fast/ as the Dragon, but our Griffin has jump jets and the Grand Dragon does not IIRC. That gives it a significant comparative mobility advantage especially on rough terrain like this. As others have said, the terrain does not favor you slugging it out here. I have to reiterate that I think it's the best plan to pull everyone back into the NW corner. Let the Grand Dragon take his low-odds potshots from where he is or advance into broken terrain- he doesn't have jump jets so he's not going to enjoy getting through to you. Either way you'll be mostly free to concentrate on killing the lights, and if it goes bad, you can retreat off-map quickly.
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Jan 25, 2011 17:37
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To those suggesting we withdraw - you're missing the important fact that we can't. Their slowest mech goes 5/8. They can easily outrun the Blackjack, and keep up with the Griffin. Even the Jenner and Vulcan wouldn't escape, as that Hussar can easily keep up and pick it apart from range. There's no way to reasonably withdraw from this fight if they want to keep with us. We have to fight. Now, what I'd do? Griffin accepts the challenge and engages in a sniping duel with the Dragon. Don't fight to win, just gently caress around at long range and trade PPC fire to keep the Dragon occupied. He's a Snake, he'll adhere to his honor code for at least a little while. Blackjack and Vulcan swing south and gangbang the hostile Jenner, which is probably toast PDQ. Our Jenner retreats around that NW hill to minimize exposure to the Hussar until backup arrives. Should be able to evade for a turn or two until the Blackjack and Vulcan can support.
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Jan 25, 2011 17:38
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Even if they outrun you, what are they going to do? If you back up and start pulling away from the Dragon on the hill, you're still improving your odds and they're running INTO your guns. They don't have a great number of avenues of advance, and you guys could cover each other as you pull back. And then the Jenner is still there shooting them in the rear armor. Any distance you can move away from that Dragon to pull it off it's sniper's perch will be an enormous advantage against both it's lancemates and when it comes to actually killing it.
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Jan 25, 2011 17:44
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Zaodai posted:Even if they outrun you, what are they going to do? If you back up and start pulling away from the Dragon on the hill, you're still improving your odds and they're running INTO your guns. They don't have a great number of avenues of advance, and you guys could cover each other as you pull back. And then the Jenner is still there shooting them in the rear armor. I pretty much entirely agree with this. Fighting inside easy range of the Grand Dragon's long range weaponry is an extreme error, especially when there's an entire big chunk of the map where he either has to abandon his optimum perch or put up with massive to-hit penalties from being at the limit of his weapon range. Either way is a net improvement for you over the current situation, and will let you mass your three mediums+light against 3 lights with only either worrying about very lucky shots or a few rounds grace time while that heavy lumbers through forests and rivers.
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Jan 25, 2011 17:49
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So the Dragon thinks he can take me on, does he? Consider me amused. I think we need to press the attack. We have a lot of advantages right now. The Dragon is the only true threat and I can probably keep him away from you guys for as long as it takes. I am slightly banged up, but have the armor to spare to engage in a long range match.
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Jan 25, 2011 17:51
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Also, Tai-i is a company commander's rank. Meaning this clown in the Grand Dragon isn't just a lance leader, he's the commander of multiple lances. He is probably better than you are. Especially since the 9th Dieron is a good, veteran unit. These guys gave the Davion Heavy Guards fits last time they tangled, I am willing to bet that we are giving up skill to these guys. Which just makes it all the more important that you not give him an easy sniping position (move out of his middlin' range) and concentrate in one area to best focus fire on one mech at a time.
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Jan 25, 2011 17:57
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KnoxZone posted:So the Dragon thinks he can take me on, does he? Consider me amused. Lets do both - we can A) Accept the challenge B) Pull back our forces away from the Dragon, in line with Zaodai's plan This forces the dragon to get off the hill and come down and mix it up with us, and will enable us to suck all their forces into a destructive conflict on our turf AND if poo poo starts going sour we can run away.
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Jan 25, 2011 17:57
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:Lets do both - we can We accept the challenge and pull back to the ridge behind us, so while we deal with the other mechs that come toward us, if the dragon gets close enough we light him up too, but the griffin is going to have to be fast on his feet and try to make every shot for him as hard as possible
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Jan 25, 2011 18:03
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One modification to Zaodai's plan - we should withdraw west. This reduces my chance of getting cut off from the rest of you, and also uses the forests to keep blocking the dragon for another few turns.
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Jan 25, 2011 18:07
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Axe-man posted:We accept the challenge and pull back to the ridge behind us, so while we deal with the other mechs that come toward us, if the dragon gets close enough we light him up too, but the griffin is going to have to be fast on his feet and try to make every shot for him as hard as possible That sounds like a reasonable plan of action. I'd prefer rejecting the challenge, so the Griffin could contribute its heavy hitters to "Skin The Jenner" fun and games, but I can see the rationale in having the Grand Dragon tied up attacking the heaviest-armored mech you have. p.s. I recommend that, every single turn, the Griffin do this.
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Jan 25, 2011 18:09
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accept the challenge, then double cross them and everyone attack their commander.
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Jan 25, 2011 18:18
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:One modification to Zaodai's plan - we should withdraw west. This reduces my chance of getting cut off from the rest of you, and also uses the forests to keep blocking the dragon for another few turns. Well the reason I suggested north rather than west is that it's easier for the "anvil" group to keep their guns trained on the enemy light assets while still drawing them away from the Dragon (and with their backs to our Jenner). I'm not against moving west, I just thought moving north to around that hill would be close enough to where you are that it doesn't reek of being a trap and yet far enough back you're not fighting their lance in rough terrain with the eyes of a (apparently highly skilled) Dragon looking down on you. As long as you're not moving towards them though, the same general idea behind my suggestion should work fine.
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Jan 25, 2011 18:19
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Mukaikubo posted:That sounds like a reasonable plan of action. I'd prefer rejecting the challenge, so the Griffin could contribute its heavy hitters to "Skin The Jenner" fun and games, but I can see the rationale in having the Grand Dragon tied up attacking the heaviest-armored mech you have. Well, I most certainly don't have to adhere to the challenge if a target of opportunity appears before me. I am a merc, not a clanner  e: 1303 looks like a likely destination for me this turn. Won't be able to escape the AC/5 this turn, but will certainly make the shot near impossible.
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Jan 25, 2011 18:23
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Zaodai posted:Any distance you can move away from that Dragon to pull it off it's sniper's perch will be an enormous advantage against both it's lancemates and when it comes to actually killing it. I think we're in agreement there, actually. Even if it was just him on that perch, we'd be under serious threat. I'm just saying that accepting the duel is the best way, since it reduces the chance he'll open up on our more fragile mechs and leash him to the Griffin.
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Jan 25, 2011 18:28
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"Huh. That Jenner just gave me a back-shot because I'm dueling his commander. Welp."
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Jan 25, 2011 18:28
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Mukaikubo posted:He is probably better than you are. LT's a better gunner than the Dragon pilot (PTN shows their skills in the calculations) which means a lot more at long range than it does at medium range. Despite my flipping the skill values, the basic setup of a 2d6 hit system is the same, which means you get disproportionate returns on your bonuses at long range. As far as Piloting goes, LT probably doesn't want to take 20+ pts of damage per turn given his 6 Piloting skill, and the Dragon driver is probably a better pilot.
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Jan 25, 2011 18:28
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E: Nevermind, I'm a dummy.
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Jan 25, 2011 18:28
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So it's decided? The duel is accepted, the rest of us focus fire their mechs down, when they're down, or mostly, one of the lights (or me even) will leap behind the dragon every round and shoot/kick it in the back abusing the whole initiative thing.
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Jan 25, 2011 18:55
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Pladdicus posted:So it's decided? The duel is accepted, the rest of us focus fire their mechs down, when they're down, or mostly, one of the lights (or me even) will leap behind the dragon every round and shoot/kick it in the back abusing the whole initiative thing. So... you're not going to pull back out of easy weapons range, and also you're going to provoke the Grand Dragon pilot into abandoning the one on one duel whose point is to let the rest of you focus on taking out his escorts? Edit: Ohhhh, NOW I see what you were saying, never mind Mukaikubo fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 18:59
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I think in the long term view you guys should refuse the duel and look like cowards (which you can exploit) vs accepting the duel and then gangbanging their company commander. You're going to draw a disproportionately large response on a strategic scale if you accept the duel and then functionally murder their commander through deceit. Moving away from the Dragon should make it enough of a non-issue that you don't have to rely on using the Griffin to tie it up. Once the light assets are down, having pulled the Dragon out of position by making him move forward into less favorable terrain to try and continue his overwatch of the lighter mechs, then you can fully exploit your increased mobility and bring him down in a hail of gunfire from every direction. Though it suddenly occurs to me if you refuse the duel, once you start killing his lancemates, he might just bolt which would forfeit the secondary objective. They're big on honor, but I dunno if they're stupid enough to have 1 heavy against 3 meds and a light.
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Jan 25, 2011 19:02
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here is the visualization of the plan Click here for the full 1139x1317 image. The griffin can go either way, allowing it to either get some + movement to it or regroup with us , then we will be a compact group and when the lights come we will pounce them.
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Jan 25, 2011 19:15
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^^^: That looks pretty good to me. Force them to come at all of us at once; if they don't want to do that then we're in a good position to retreat.Zaodai posted:I think in the long term view you guys should refuse the duel and look like cowards (which you can exploit) vs accepting the duel and then gangbanging their company commander. You're going to draw a disproportionately large response on a strategic scale if you accept the duel and then functionally murder their commander through deceit. In broad strokes, this is what I suggest: The Griffin should accept the duel. This (hopefully) keeps the Dragon from targeting our light units. The Griffin is our best-equipped choice to tangle with a Dragon. However, try to lure him down from his perch while you're doing this. Your objective is not to take him out (yet), but to keep him busy and hopefully maneuver him into a worse position. The rest of the lance, while the duel is keeping the Dragon busy, should gang up on the OpFor's light mechs one by one (suggested order: Hussar, Spider, Jenner[1]) and once they are dealt with can help with the Dragon which will hopefully be in a closer/less advantageous position. [1]: Two reasons to do it this way - We're targeting the lighter-armored ones first to knock them out early, and the lighter-armored ones are also the faster ones which would make disengagement and withdrawal hard if it comes to that. I think the secondary objective is worth going for at this point, but we need to keep our options open for a fighting withdrawal.
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Jan 25, 2011 19:15
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Guys, I just had the most terrifying thought: The unknown is a clan mech.  I know it makes no sense, which is what makes it seem possible.
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Jan 25, 2011 19:51
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Geeze, some of you guys are thinking about this a little too hard. 3 light mechs (spider, hussar, jenner) shouldn't scare 2 mediums and a light (blackjack, vulcan, jenner). The only mech to worry about really is the Jenner. If the Griffin accepts the duel with the dragon then he can easily get partial cover/go to max range to force the dragon to waste ammo firing at long range since he has a +1 gunnery advantage. His weapons won't be that useful in the knife fight that's going to happen with the light mechs anyway. The Kurita light mechs are at a +1 gunnery disadvantage and likely have a +1 piloting disadvantage. Coupled with the initiative problem you could probably just bum rush their jenner and end up winning. For a group of mercs in better mechs with better pilots and with initiative advantages you guys sure are acting like wusses. Longinus00 fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 19:52
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Mahoshonen posted:Guys, I just had the most terrifying thought: We already have a visual ID on the unknown. It is a Hussar. A 300-D to boot. vvv Word. I for one am looking forward to taking a Dragon as salvage. KnoxZone fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 20:10
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Longinus00 posted:Geeze, some of you guys are thinking about this a little too hard. 3 light mechs (spider, hussar, jenner) shouldn't scare 2 mediums and a light (blackjack, vulcan, jenner). The pilots aren't acting like wusses! It's our peanut gallery!
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Jan 25, 2011 20:10
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God forbid we get in the habit of good tactical planning, minding mech threats' weapon ranges, figuring out how to use terrain effectively, keeping our options open, et cetera, while we're still facing forces that will not annihilate us if we goof. The horror, the horror.  Besides, if he's a company commander, do we really know there's not another recon lance inbound? e: wait, you really think these Kurita pilots are skill 5/6?
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Jan 25, 2011 20:16
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Mukaikubo posted:God forbid we get in the habit of good tactical planning, minding mech threats' weapon ranges, figuring out how to use terrain effectively, keeping our options open, et cetera, while we're still facing forces that will not annihilate us if we goof. The horror, the horror. My post was directed more at the people who were advocating a pull out. The dragon is 4/x and the spider is 5/x so it's very likely the other pilots are either 4/x or 5/x unless poptarts decides to make the battle winnable for kurita (and even with crack pilots it would be an uphill fight without some luck)
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Jan 25, 2011 20:21
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Longinus00 posted:My post was directed more at the people who were advocating a pull out. Fair enough, but most of those people were just advocating sticking near the edges so that they could pull out if things started to go bad- like me. Just takes a few unlucky rolls and we're in a world of hurt- that's Battletech. Never hurts to be prepared. And I don't know, I think that these other two pilots are likely to be pretty good. Again, the Dierons are a good line regiment- I'd expect some pretty decent pilots. The recon mechs with their light armament probably 5/4, 4/4, or better; admittedly piloting is only really useful in a prolonged fight after taking damage.
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Jan 25, 2011 20:25
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with me its hard to not be very aggressive with this battle, i'm use to fighting against people with better equipment and usually with clan tech. but i certianly don't want to be the only guy out front shooting up a jenner while the other two mechs swarm me... i'm surprised people aren't asking if we keep what we kill type them going on 
Axe-man fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 20:27
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It isn't really surprising that this first battle is chock full of advantages for the good guys. This is basically a tutorial, not only for us, but for the rest of the soon-to-be pilots on the list. I imagine the next couple battles will really start ratcheting up the difficulty once PTN knows he can trust us enough to not need to pull his punches. Looking forward to the future where our reinforced company finds itself facing a clan Binary. If we can't get a true victory in the very first battle we might as well go home now
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Jan 25, 2011 20:30
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KnoxZone posted:If we can't get a victory in the very first battle we might as well go home now We've already won, mind. Now it is a question of how much we'll win. Going maximum leeroy isn't a good idea even here, but fighting with a sensible game plan should work fine. Barring unforeseen hostility from the dice.
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Jan 25, 2011 20:33
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Mukaikubo posted:Fair enough, but most of those people were just advocating sticking near the edges so that they could pull out if things started to go bad- like me. Just takes a few unlucky rolls and we're in a world of hurt- that's Battletech. Never hurts to be prepared. And I don't know, I think that these other two pilots are likely to be pretty good. Again, the Dierons are a good line regiment- I'd expect some pretty decent pilots. The recon mechs with their light armament probably 5/4, 4/4, or better; admittedly piloting is only really useful in a prolonged fight after taking damage. The average damage output of the kurita lance is so low vs. the average kell hound armor that the only thing you have to worry about this through armor criticals. Going to the sides of the map means being at a disadvantage terrain wise and initiative wise. (if you always remain in the same place then what's the benefit of going last?) VVV The dragon doesn't have a ppc. The dragon can also easily be tied up by a challenge so it's effectively out of the fight. The dragon would also easily lose to the light mechs because it has mobility problems and has WORSE short range firepower than the spider. Longinus00 fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 20:34
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Longinus00 posted:The Kurita light mechs are at a +1 gunnery disadvantage and likely have a +1 piloting disadvantage. Coupled with the initiative problem you could probably just bum rush their jenner and end up winning. For a group of mercs in better mechs with better pilots and with initiative advantages you guys sure are acting like wusses. You know a good way to lose your advantage? Suicide it away by assuming your advantage is so great you don't need to employ any sort of tactical plan. Pulling back and drawing them into your guns (and avoiding more LRM and a PPC the Dragon has) is not so much cowardice as it is realizing that the terrain advantage the Combine troops currently have dwarf our alleged superior mech advantage. Especially when you factor in that Dragon being able to shoot at anybody that charges in to that little corridor. Lightly armed and armoed as the light mechs facing us are, they're unlikely to go down anywhere nearly as easy as the J. Edgars. I'm probably giving the Dragon too much credit as a threat, but it really shouldn't have a problem raping the ever-loving poo poo out of our lighter mechs, especially if they're already engaged with the Combine light assets. [EDIT] Longinus00 posted:The average damage output of the kurita lance is so low vs. the average kell hound armor that the only thing you have to worry about this through armor criticals. Going to the sides of the map means being at a disadvantage terrain wise and initiative wise. (if you always remain in the same place then what's the benefit of going last?) You'd get the benefit of making them come to you, and the big benefit of not having a Heavy sitting in a perfect sniper's perch taking pot shots at you while you fight their light mechs. And through armor criticals are just a roll away. Zaodai fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 20:36
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Longinus00 posted:The dragon doesn't have a ppc. Oh, but it does. DRG-1G (the variant we're facing) has three medium lasers, an LRM-10, and a PPC.
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Jan 25, 2011 20:42
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I think you should go for it. There's no harm in taking down the Jenner while simultaneously humoring the honorable Tai-i. Even a couple hits will hurt the Jenner badly. I guess it would be impolite of me to list hexes so I shan't, but there are a couple really tempting spots you could move into. Someone noted the Dragon stands in an excellent sniping spot. This is true, but as things stand closing the distance would play in favor of the Dragon. Unfortunately the reasoning doesn't fit in the margin.
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Jan 25, 2011 20:43
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Cythereal posted:Oh, but it does. DRG-1G (the variant we're facing) has three medium lasers, an LRM-10, and a PPC. That's a mistake, poptarts said he changed it to a 1N.
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Jan 25, 2011 20:44
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Cythereal posted:Oh, but it does. DRG-1G (the variant we're facing) has three medium lasers, an LRM-10, and a PPC. If you notice the last turn, the Dragon took a potshot at me with an AC/5, not a PPC.
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Jan 25, 2011 20:45
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