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Agent Interrobang posted:Did he? I was pretty sure it was just the typical Davion motivation. "What, has it really been ten years since we stomped a mudhole into the Liaos? Let's do it again for old times sake." They said his General Tso's Chicken would be there in 20 minutes, and it had been almost 30 when he declared war.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:54
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Agent Interrobang posted:Yeah, pretty much this. I like Battletech because no matter WHO you're rooting for, absolutely nobody is a 'good guy.' I don't like Hanse Davion because he's THE NICEST GUY NO REALLY HE JUST CONQUERS NATIONS WITH RANDOM BLITZKRIEGS AS A HOBBY, I like him because he's an entertainingly duplicitous and conniving bastard. Same reason I like Marthe Pryde. While there may be no Major House 'good guys' the Outworlds Alliance is most defenitely good guys. They have a European style Social Democracy and unlike the other major Periphery states they don't have a heriditary family that wins the presidential election every time. While they didn't have enough resources to have many social programs up until the 3050s once they did get trade agreements with people they reinvested the money in universal health care and education. However they don't have that many 'mechs since their primary defense force is their aerospace wing, which is one of the best in the 'verse. Basically they don't even want to fight ON the planet because that would hurt the people they want to stop your invasion before you even get to the planet.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:54
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Dominus Caedis posted:While there may be no Major House 'good guys' the Outworlds Alliance is most defenitely good guys. They have a European style Social Democracy and unlike the other major Periphery states they don't have a heriditary family that wins the presidential election every time. While they didn't have enough resources to have many social programs up until the 3050s once they did get trade agreements with people they reinvested the money in universal health care and education. However they don't have that many 'mechs since their primary defense force is their aerospace wing, which is one of the best in the 'verse. Basically they don't even want to fight ON the planet because that would hurt the people they want to stop your invasion before you even get to the planet. Later on they apparently merge with clan Snow Raven which means they have the biggest, best trained, and most baddassiest fleet in the known galaxy.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:59
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Zaodai posted:They used to be strong-ish, but after so many wars they're left with a crazy inferiority complex. The Laios want to be seen as equals, but they're living in a trailer park rather than a mansion. So they figure they need crazy schemes to take back all their occupied worlds, and then they get stomped even more and it repeats. And this doesn't sound like a condescending mid-20th century description of China? People still look down on the Chinese and act like it's silly that they want to be treated as an equal to the great Western powers, even as China roars back to world-power status. I guarantee you if the Capellan Confederation's backstory was rewritten today, based on common American views of China today as opposed to the mid 1980s, they would be portrayed as a far greater threat. Zaodai posted:They said his General Tso's Chicken would be there in 20 minutes, and it had been almost 30 when he declared war.  This just made me think, though, would anyone be caught dead ordering out for traditional English food? I think not! Take that Davions! Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 23:03
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Arglebargle III posted:And this a zillion times. As a student of Chinese history and culture it's painfully obvious that the Capellans are Fu-Manchu caricatures. I would really like to see a genuine future state based on the Chinese Empire. If the Capellan Confederation was a meritocratic bureaucracy under an Emperor obsessed with keeping the nobility down (like the Chinese Empires of history) it would be a genuinely interesting and different Successor State. Even having the Liaos obsessed with domestic distractions would lend them a little more genuine Chinese flavor. And it would make sense with the most densely populated state, too. I also always thought it was weird that the Capellan symbol is a guy holding a sword that looks either Japanese or Central Asian. The Chinese traditionally made straight swords. To be fair, which of the Successor States aren't painful caricatures? Kurita are a bunch of space samurais, Davion is TEAM AMERICA INNER SPHERE POLICE, Steiner are industrious mercantile Germans/Italians with all that implies, and Marik... well nobody cares about House Marik.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:04
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Well yeah that's true. We're not talking about literature here. But there are still cardboard cutout goodguys and cardboard cutout badguys, and nobody likes having to be the badguy. It's always kind of painful to go back and look at what pop culture was saying about Asia in the 1980s. With all the Japanese ubermenschen and whatnot running around. edit: tildeath you read my mind Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 23:07
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I thought Marik was TEAM AMERICA SPACE POLICE while Davion was Snobby-but-rather-kind (if you don't look at the slavery and military invasions in other places) British empire.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:08
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Arglebargle III posted:And this a zillion times. As a student of Chinese history and culture it's painfully obvious that the Capellans are Fu-Manchu caricatures. Yeah, but it's typical of the material from that period, and by that I mean the period in which FASA created this universe. That's why you see the Bushido Crisp stereotype for the (successful) Japanese nation. Back in the 70s and the 80s everyone thought China was poo poo and nobody was talking about the truly innovative and successful periods in Chinese history and, since everyone thought Japan was eating our breakfast, science fiction (along with all the other pop literature and culture) picked them to represent Asia in Space. The reality of the situation is that China has been the center of the world for most of history, whereas podunk nations like Britain and Japan are just little islands that happened to be successful over the last 300 years.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:09
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I keep  'ing this, hoping that our pilots have sent in their orders and that PTN's played out the next round of combat.Is BattleTech always this slow, or does it just seem slow because it's being done on a message board as opposed to on a tabletop or in Megamek?
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Jan 25, 2011 23:09
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I care about House Marik.  They were supposed to be sort of an American/European/Indian hybrid. They're the multi-culture pals. Arglebargle III posted:And this doesn't sound like a condescending mid-20th century description of China? People still look down on the Chinese and act like it's silly that they want to be treated as an equal to the great Western powers, even as China roars back to world-power status. I guarantee you if the Capellan Confederation's backstory was rewritten today, based on common American views of China today as opposed to the mid 1980s, they would be portrayed as a far greater threat. ... at which point he abused his power to take back lost Cappellan worlds. I think you're looking too far into the setting. They're all one dimensional, heavily stereotyped depictions of various groups, and they've all got their flaws.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:13
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W.T. Fits posted:I keep It is usually a lot faster, but obviously playing through a message board makes it take a while. Between waiting for all participants to send in orders and making up the post, things tend to take a while. Especially since I have no idea what kind of work schedule everyone has. As for me, I sent in my turn a few hours back. No clue what the status of everyone else is though.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:13
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W.T. Fits posted:I keep Battltech is a tabletop game so if it were really this slow you would probably either leave or punch the guy sitting across from you. Don't forget poptarts has to get moves from 4 different people. EFB Zaodai posted:I care about House Marik. I think what's annoying is that the capellans always (at least to my knowledge) seem to draw the short straws.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:13
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Arglebargle III posted:And this a zillion times. As a student of Chinese history and culture it's painfully obvious that the Capellans are Fu-Manchu caricatures. I would really like to see a genuine future state based on the Chinese Empire. If the Capellan Confederation was a meritocratic bureaucracy under an Emperor obsessed with keeping the nobility down (like the Chinese Empires of history) it would be a genuinely interesting and different Successor State. Even having the Liaos obsessed with domestic distractions would lend them a little more genuine Chinese flavor. And it would make sense with the most densely populated state, too. I also always thought it was weird that the Capellan symbol is a guy holding a sword that looks either Japanese or Central Asian. The Chinese traditionally made straight swords. If you read the old House Liao book, things are a bit different. Before being cut in half by the FedRats, the Capellan Confederation was a lot more reflective of it's roots. The north, centered around Tikonov, was strongly Russian flavored, with the south being much more Chinese. After the 4th, most of what remained of the CapCon was mostly Chinese, meaning that when Sun-Tzu went to work welding the tattered remains of his realm together, focusing on that culture to the exclusion of the others made sense. In this alternate universe, it's quite likely that Xin Sheng will never occur, which means that Liao mech design will be radically altered - if we don't lose Tikonov, we don't have to build our entire military out of the scraps we have left. . . I must think on this. Longinus00 posted:I think what's annoying is that the capellans always (at least to my knowledge) seem to draw the short straws. Not true - we got our time in the Author Fiat seat, getting back Tikonov for the most ludicrous reasons possible. I would have rather seen us expanding toward the Periphery (merging with the Magistracy and subjugating the Taurians) as a more sensible way for Liao to rebuild. Kenlon fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 23:15
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Agent Interrobang posted:Did he? I was pretty sure it was just the typical Davion motivation. "What, has it really been ten years since we stomped a mudhole into the Liaos? Let's do it again for old times sake." It's all in The Sword and the Dagger, the second Battletech novel published.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:16
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Agent Interrobang posted:Did he? I was pretty sure it was just the typical Davion motivation. "What, has it really been ten years since we stomped a mudhole into the Liaos? Let's do it again for old times sake." ...Uh, Operation Doppelganger? The part where Max Liao tried to replace Hanse Davion with a brainwashed body double so he could rule the Federated Suns from the shadows and was about a half-inch from success? I'd call that fairly reasonable reason. e: so totally beaten.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:17
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So, basically we're just consolidating, no firing? (On C's end)
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Jan 25, 2011 23:18
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Arquinsiel posted:Max kind of surgically reconstructed someone to look like Hanse, wiped the dude's memory and managed to replace Hanse with him at a critical point in the Davion-Steiner negotiations, very nearly costing the FedCom it's existance, killing Hanse and his friend Ardan Sortek and incidentally ruling the Federated Suns via a puppet. Huh, that's all news to me. Freaky. How have I not heard of such amazing ludicrousness before? I thought I was well-read on this poo poo.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:18
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W.T. Fits posted:I keep I present you a typical flowchart of a Battletech game to explain:  Click here for the full 600x1000 image.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:18
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Longinus00 posted:I think what's annoying is that the capellans always (at least to my knowledge) seem to draw the short straws. They don't "always" draw the short straw. If they had, they wouldn't have been a Great House to start with. They've just drawn the short straw more recently, so it appears that way. And like I said, they had the first First Lord, which is hardly a short straw. Kenlon also made a good point, too.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:20
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Agent Interrobang posted:Huh, that's all news to me. Freaky. How have I not heard of such amazing ludicrousness before? I thought I was well-read on this poo poo.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:20
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Zaodai posted:Also, I wish PTN would keep his mech listing up to date then if he's going to keep changing the opposing mech and the loadout. It's hard to plan strategy when poo poo is changing every turn. In the most recent turn it's listed as a Grand Dragon, with a Dragon variant loadout for an entirely different variant. It was a typo. It was fixed on my master document, and then decided to unfix itself. I've said repeatedly in posts that it is a DRG-1N Dragon. The typo has been fixed. In the future, if my information is conflicting, it's generally safe to assume that a listed weapon's loadout is correct, especially if that loadout has been used. Tarquinn posted:17 years to go then (unless PTN speeds things up). I wouldn't really call that "just before". They're invading this year. Tarquinn posted:PoptartsNinja, what's Kurita's stance (and policies) regarding mercenaries? A necessary evil, They'd prefer not to use them but they're good for hunting pirates and risky, potentially suicidal missions. They really, really hate the Kell Hounds, but also really, really respect them, so defeating a Kell Hound in an honorable duel is worth the risk of betrayal to some of the more conservative Bushido practitioners. And yes, I have plans for the Capellans. Notice, they're actually doing really well in their war with the Free Worlds League.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:20
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Agent Interrobang posted:Huh, that's all news to me. Freaky. How have I not heard of such amazing ludicrousness before? I thought I was well-read on this poo poo. It was part of the first series of novels ever published about Battletech, and was out of print for a long time. Plus, the quality was pretty poor even compared with the schlockiness of any given BT novel.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:22
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PoptartsNinja posted:And yes, I have plans for the Capellans. Notice, they're actually doing really well in their war with the Free Worlds League. I assume this would be because Justin is actually leading the Maskirova, and not loving them up, da?
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Jan 25, 2011 23:24
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Kenlon posted:If you read the old House Liao book, things are a bit different. Before being cut in half by the FedRats, the Capellan Confederation was a lot more reflective of it's roots. The north, centered around Tikonov, was strongly Russian flavored, with the south being much more Chinese. Hah, I had forgotten all about the quotes. Gengis Khan and so can we! —Tikonov graffiti, ca. 2170 Kenlon posted:Not true - we got our time in the Author Fiat seat, getting back Tikonov for the most ludicrous reasons possible. I would have rather seen us expanding toward the Periphery (merging with the Magistracy and subjugating the Taurians) as a more sensible way for Liao to rebuild. I think that was more about keeping the status quo. Zaodai posted:They don't "always" draw the short straw. If they had, they wouldn't have been a Great House to start with. They've just drawn the short straw more recently, so it appears that way. And like I said, they had the first First Lord, which is hardly a short straw. I'd consider them drawing the short straw ever since they first formed. What benefit did becoming the first lord actually have for the Capellans? PoptartsNinja posted:And yes, I have plans for the Capellans. Notice, they're actually doing really well in their war with the Free Worlds League. Part of the reason I eagerly await your updates! Longinus00 fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 23:25
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Kenlon posted:I assume this would be because Justin is actually leading the Maskirova, and not loving them up, da? Justin's loyalties are still questionable in my book. This is why nobody likes turncoats, if they can turn once they can turn again. And he may or may not be a spy. Maybe.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:27
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Longinus00 posted:I'd consider them drawing the short straw ever since they first formed. What benefit did becoming the first lord actually have for the Capellans? It gave them control of a vast military organization that let them conquer hundreds of worlds with someone else's troops? No, you're right, that's probably bad for the Confederation. Languishing in mediocrity would have been a much better option. =P Though I imagine the reason they're going to do well in this LP is because they did get beat up so much in canon BT.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:31
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Zaodai posted:It gave them control of a vast military organization that let them conquer hundreds of worlds with someone else's troops? I've said earlier that I'm not a lore buff but the inner sphere maps don't really show the CC expanding all that much by the time the jihad happens. It looks like they just returned to post 4th war status quo. Longinus00 fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 23:34
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Longinus00 posted:I'd consider them drawing the short straw ever since they first formed. What benefit did becoming the first lord actually have for the Capellans?
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Jan 25, 2011 23:38
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Longinus00 posted:I've said earlier that I'm not a lore buff but the inner sphere maps don't really show the CC expanding all that much by the time the jihad happens... Yeah, we only reclaimed St. Ives, pretty much. Though the Jihad was pretty much nothing but being loving  for the CCAF. Nuke us, motherfuckers? We'll nuke your asses back. 
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Jan 25, 2011 23:39
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Longinus00 posted:I've said earlier that I'm not a lore buff but the inner sphere maps don't really show the CC expanding all that much by the time the jihad happens. It looks like they just returned to post 4th war status quo. These two maps show roughly what the Confederation gained between the time Sun-Tzu Liao became First Lord and after he got voted out. Before After Sure, it doesn't make them as big as everybody else, but that was a lot of worlds they would otherwise not have.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:42
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Arquinsiel posted:There's also sentient aliens in that book and aerospace fighters carry drop-tanks so you can fly them aaaaaaaaaaaaaaall the way to the jump point. Oh god, ahahahahaha. Alright, I did not remember the MANCHURIAN AGENT DOPPEL-HANSE bit, but I do know that book.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:43
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I remember someone saying that the CC isn't as small as it looks because it occupies a corridor of very densely-settled space.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:43
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Zaodai posted:These two maps show roughly what the Confederation gained between the time Sun-Tzu Liao became First Lord and after he got voted out. Now compare that to What they had before the 4th succession war. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:Inner-sphere-3025.jpg It looks to me like the writers are just trying to restore status quo more than give Capella "a break" if you will. Arglebargle III posted:I remember someone saying that the CC isn't as small as it looks because it occupies a corridor of very densely-settled space. Yea, they're packed in there. http://iscs.teamspam.net/povray/iscs_3025.20020918.jpg VVV I guess I'd consider them more fortunate if they actually won any land instead of losing less? Longinus00 fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 23:44
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Oh lord. So unless they surpass their high water mark for all of their recorded history, it doesn't count as being fortunate? gently caress that. There's no way I can make any kind of rational argument under those asinine limitations. I give up. Everybody hates the Capellans because their Mathletics team is totally badass and it makes them all look stupid so it's a big conspiracy to put them back in their place, building railroads. Which nobody use, because it's the era of interplanetary travel. But they need those Space Chinamen to be doing something constructive.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:49
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Zaodai posted:I give up. Everybody hates the Capellans because their Mathletics team is totally badass and it makes them all look stupid so it's a big conspiracy to put them back in their place, building railroads. Which nobody use, because it's the era of interplanetary travel. But they need those Space Chinamen to be doing something constructive. Everyone hates the Capellans because their leaders are literally the worst in the Sphere. Even worse than Takashi Kurita or Katherine Steiner.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:56
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WarLocke posted:Everyone hates the Capellans because their leaders are literally the worst in the Sphere. Even worse than Takashi Kurita or Katherine Steiner. Nah, everyone hates the Cappies because Sun-Tzu doesn't even pretend to give fucks about anyone else. As a result he has no friends among anyone who's not a Capellan. Also? Takashi Kurita fell victim to the Curse of the 4th Succession War, where before he was a capable and dangerous enemy that could go toe-to-toe with Hanse Davion and see through his plans, and then right before the 4th War he had a stroke and suddenly he ignored taking territory from the FS entirely in favor of just trying to fight Wolf's Dragoons. In his favor, afterward he was smart enough to realize his stroke had compromised his judgement and only his son Theodore was man enough to tell him off, so he promoted the guy. That's why 3039 wasn't a total unmitigated disaster. If you want an example of awful Kurita leaders, you should look at Takashi's father Minoru, or the Star League-era Coordinator Leonard Kurita, who sort of accidentally created the Clans.
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Jan 26, 2011 00:32
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quote:I guess I'd consider them more fortunate if they actually won any land instead of losing less? Their controlled territory grew in size. Therefore, they won land. You are aware that every faction gains and loses territory, right? They can't all be at their high point forever. It's an enormous logical fallacy to consider any ground they gain from their low point to not be any kind of progress because it is less than what they had a full century ago. Zaodai fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Jan 26, 2011 |
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Jan 26, 2011 00:48
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Mukaikubo fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Jan 26, 2011 |
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Jan 26, 2011 00:55
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The Capellans have leadership that's considered 'bad' because they tend to be very self-contained. Even Maximillian Liao was successful in stopping the slow destruction of his realm (which had been losing pretty constantly to the Mariks and Davions for over 200 years). Max Liao stopped that by forming several elite units and reorganizing his military into something a little more proactive. Capellans do not have bad leadership. They do have problems, militarily, because their officers do not act without orders. That has been the major crippling factor for the Capellan Confederation, and it's something Sun Tzu eliminated pretty much entirely. I don't want to have to add a new corrolary to Rule Omega. It's fluff for a game, it's polarizing. Discussions are fine, but it's nothing worth getting angry about. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Jan 26, 2011 |
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Jan 26, 2011 00:56
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PoptartsNinja posted:I don't want to have to add a rule Triple Omega. It's fluff for a game, it's polarizing. Discussions are fine, but it's nothing worth getting angry about. My God, a rule that overrides even the Prime Rule, and shuts down all computers in pursuit of a normal mission! 
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Jan 26, 2011 01:00
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