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Well RVD's problem is that he was at his zenith of popularity during the Invasion and HHH's Reign of Doom. He should have won the title in 2001-02, but despite the fact he was probably the most over guy on the show, well, he just wasn't "WWF/E-approved" yet. Maybe the weed use was a factor, but I doubt it. Mostly just the outsider factor for Vince. Same goes for Booker. They were the enemy even though he owned the competition.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:36
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ColeM posted:Why did it take so long for Booker T and RVD to become world champions? Both were super over and some of the hardest workers to ever step in the ring, which is why its puzzling. RVD did some cool moves, but he should never be confused with a hard worker.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:36
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sportsgenius86 posted:Booker T is black. Shane brings Booker in to meet Vince and introduces him as the WCW Champion, Vince grabs Booker by the arm and walks away with him. "What's the matter with you?" he asks,"Can't you see this man is a ni-" then notices it is Booker, apologizes, walks him back, grabs Shane, walks him away and asks,"What's the matter with you? Can't you see this man is a ni?" Anyways I am amused at the notion that Booker being a black champion was apparently so repugnant to Vince that he made a point of replacing him as champion with another black guy.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:36
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Wasn't he due to beat trips during THAT fued but once goldberg was coming in they nixed it and he just looked awful. King Booker was an amazing end for his wwe run although i'd love for him to come back at the rumble even if its for one night.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:37
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Jerusalem posted:Shane brings Booker in to meet Vince and introduces him as the WCW Champion, Vince grabs Booker by the arm and walks away with him. "What's the matter with you?" he asks,"Can't you see this man is a ni-" then notices it is Booker, apologizes, walks him back, grabs Shane, walks him away and asks,"What's the matter with you? Can't you see this man is a ni?"
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Jan 25, 2011 22:38
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Captain Charisma posted:Mostly just the outsider factor for Vince. Same goes for Booker. They were the enemy even though he owned the competition. I agree with this, I've never believed the,"Vince won't push guys he didn't make" line but I can fully see him thinking of Booker and RVD (Booker especially) as "the enemy" given how fresh WCW almost taking them out was in his mind. It's not logical and it's counterproductive but it's somewhat understandable (without endorsing the mindset). Captain Charisma posted:despite the fact he was probably the most over guy on the show I'd say you could argue he WAS the most popular guy on the roster in 2001, he was getting a bigger reaction than Steve Austin of all people, they should have jumped on that opportunity.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:39
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Oh yeah, and mostly unrelated to all this discussion, does anyone else remember the wonderful relationship between Booker and Shane when they were first in WWF together? They were like best buds who were just constantly touched at just how much the other guy liked them, buying presents for each other and things like that. I loved that poo poo.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:41
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Jerusalem posted:Shane brings Booker in to meet Vince and introduces him as the WCW Champion, Vince grabs Booker by the arm and walks away with him. "What's the matter with you?" he asks,"Can't you see this man is a ni-" then notices it is Booker, apologizes, walks him back, grabs Shane, walks him away and asks,"What's the matter with you? Can't you see this man is a ni?" Wasn't racism the reason why he left back in 2007? Or was that Lashley's reason for leaving?
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Jan 25, 2011 22:45
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Lashley left as he was dating one of the divas who got canned for not agreeing to be involved with a storyline. Think the story involved that teddy long wedding.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:47
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Jerusalem posted:I'd say you could argue he WAS the most popular guy on the roster in 2001, he was getting a bigger reaction than Steve Austin of all people, they should have jumped on that opportunity. Well, Austin was a heel, and they were playing RVD as the unwilling face member of the Alliance, opposed to Stone Cold, Stephanie, and Shane. Of course he was getting a bigger reaction. I don't know if he was getting the BIGGEST reactions, though, but I will say it was still up there with what Angle and Rock were getting at the time, and yeah, at certain points it WAS bigger.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:49
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Jerusalem posted:Oh yeah, and mostly unrelated to all this discussion, does anyone else remember the wonderful relationship between Booker and Shane when they were first in WWF together? They were like best buds who were just constantly touched at just how much the other guy liked them, buying presents for each other and things like that. I loved that poo poo. The bookends made from the table that Booker T put the Rock through was an especially nice touch.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:49
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I doubt RVD's drug use was an issue before he got busted since it was like the central part of his character in backstage promos and stuff. Wasn't he simply notorious for hurting people early in his WWE run?
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Jan 25, 2011 22:51
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Sue Denim posted:When did people outside the industry become knowledgeable of Hogan's true character, in relation to the egotism, lying, exaggerating and politicking? Mainstream it would have been all of his lying and equivocating about steroids in the 1991-1993 area. The fan backlash was already starting as early as the Savage feud in 1989, and that's around the period where the sheets would have started hitting Hogan for such things.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:52
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El Duke posted:Well, Austin was a heel, and they were playing RVD as the unwilling face member of the Alliance, opposed to Stone Cold, Stephanie, and Shane. Of course he was getting a bigger reaction. I don't know if he was getting the BIGGEST reactions, though, but I will say it was still up there with what Angle and Rock were getting at the time, and yeah, at certain points it WAS bigger. That's why I used the word reaction, since it really did seem like people were louder and more excited for RVD. Also that was during the Alliance time where the crowd was somewhat split between booing Austin and cheering for him again (unlike the Two Man Power Trip where he was pretty successful in making people boo him), and RVD wasn't really playing an unwilling face, he was arrogant and smarmy but in a way that people liked. He didn't disagree with the policies of the Alliance at all, he was happy to have Austin as leader, but played up and encouraged the reactions and didn't feel the need to (kayfabe) apologize for getting a bigger reaction that Austin who was wonderfully playing up his paranoia and shaky grasp on his top spot. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 22:54
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Jerusalem posted:I agree with this, I've never believed the,"Vince won't push guys he didn't make" line but I can fully see him thinking of Booker and RVD (Booker especially) as "the enemy" given how fresh WCW almost taking them out was in his mind. It's not logical and it's counterproductive but it's somewhat understandable (without endorsing the mindset). I think it's the most likely explanation, given how the Invasion ended up. Vince couldn't accept the fact that he owned his competition and that burying them was burying what he owned. He had to get the last laugh, and he considered everyone from WCW and ECW the other.
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Jan 25, 2011 22:57
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Jerusalem posted:That's why I used the word reaction, since it really did seem like people were louder and more excited for RVD. Also that was during the Alliance time where the crowd was somewhat split between booing Austin and cheering for him again (unlike the Two Man Power Trip where he was pretty successful in making people book him), and RVD wasn't really playing an unwilling face, he was arrogant and smarmy but in a way that people liked. He didn't disagree with the policies of the Alliance at all, he was happy to have Austin as leader, but played up and encouraged the reactions and didn't feel the need to (kayfabe) apologize for getting a bigger reaction that Austin who was wonderfully playing up his paranoia and shaky grasp on his top spot. RVD was having meetings with Vince about jumping over to the WWF. He had a triple threat match for the title against Austin and Angle, in which, when both were laid out, he pensively had to decide who to Frog Splash. He frogsplashes Austin and Heyman loses his poo poo. RVD was always portrayed as kind of the outsider of the Alliance, partially because Austin didn't trust him due to "Paranoid Austin," but also because eventually he was a tweener between both factions. Also, yeah, the crowd really didn't know how to feel about Austin during this period, so the reactions were decidedly mixed and more subdued. Edit: As far as the RVD not getting the title stuff, I'm pretty sure I remember hearing about both Angle and Austin complaining about working with RVD during this period because he could be sloppy and too stiff, which is a bit concerning for two guys with bad necks. And once he smashed Triple H's windpipe I think he effectively delayed any title reign for a few years. El Duke Silver fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Jan 25, 2011 |
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Jan 25, 2011 23:00
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RVD was crazy over in 2001. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HseyWA8BQFQ (jump to about 4:20 lol) For reference, Jericho was arguably the second biggest face in the company behind Rock.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:02
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Captain Charisma posted:I think it's the most likely explanation, given how the Invasion ended up. Vince couldn't accept the fact that he owned his competition and that burying them was burying what he owned. He had to get the last laugh, and he considered everyone from WCW and ECW the other. What's interesting is that NWA/WCW did the exact same thing when they bought the UWF out. There was a seriously profitable angle available between remaining UWF talents coming in and being pushed against NWA talents. Very few guys got used properly or pushed. Everyone else got jobbed out and left to Japan.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:09
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The Croc posted:Lashley left as he was dating one of the divas who got canned for not agreeing to be involved with a storyline. Think the story involved that teddy long wedding.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:11
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Captain Charisma posted:I think it's the most likely explanation, given how the Invasion ended up. Vince couldn't accept the fact that he owned his competition and that burying them was burying what he owned. He had to get the last laugh, and he considered everyone from WCW and ECW the other. To be fair the real problem with the Invasion is that instead of paying to immediately bring in all the WCW stars for the invading force, he didn't bring in any of them except DDP and Booker T immediately, even though they all came in within the next two years. So the Invasion angle, which should have been the biggest thing ever, just turned into a new way to resuscitate the very stale McMahon vs. Austin and feudin' McMahons storylines.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:12
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ColeM posted:Wasn't racism the reason why he left back in 2007? Or was that Lashley's reason for leaving? Booker left because he failed a drug test and they had the audacity to suspend him. He was also mad they passed him over for the developmental deal, but he was never actually promised that. I would take issue with the initial premise that Booker is one of the hardest working guys out there. He works up to the level of his opponent and his push. If he doesn't give a drat it is blatantly obvious in the ring.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:15
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jeffersonlives posted:To be fair the real problem with the Invasion is that instead of paying to immediately bring in all the WCW stars for the invading force, he didn't bring in any of them except DDP and Booker T immediately, even though they all came in within the next two years. So the Invasion angle, which should have been the biggest thing ever, just turned into a new way to resuscitate the very stale McMahon vs. Austin and feudin' McMahons storylines. That said there is a lot to be said about the enormous financial and morale cost of buying out the guaranteed payment contracts and bringing in the "top" stars of a failed promotion, many of whom were known for politicking, some of whom had left WWF years earlier and almost put it out of business. Some have argued that WWF guys would have/should have/could have sucked it up because the angle being done properly SHOULD have made them all so much money that it wouldn't have been an issue, but we all know that this doesn't happen in the real world, let alone the incredible carny world of pro-wrestling. Just for clarity's sake, I'm not pretending the Invasion angle was done right or the best way it could have been (though I do think it was better than a lot of people give it credit for) but the idea of "just pay millions upon millions of dollars for Goldberg, Hogan, Nash, Hall and Sting and buyrates would have doubled and the ratings would have hit the 10s!" (yes I know that is hyperbole) is simplistic and not realistic.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:20
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Goldberg and Sting would've been enough, honestly. Goldberg/Austin was the ultimate dream match back in the late 90s/early 2000's and it was absolutely stupid to not buy out his contract considering the return they would've made for the match itself.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:28
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Jerusalem posted:Oh yeah, and mostly unrelated to all this discussion, does anyone else remember the wonderful relationship between Booker and Shane when they were first in WWF together? They were like best buds who were just constantly touched at just how much the other guy liked them, buying presents for each other and things like that. I loved that poo poo. Jerusalem posted:Anyways I am amused at the notion that Booker being a black champion was apparently so repugnant to Vince that he made a point of replacing him as champion with another black guy. Of course, this is only speculation.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:29
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Jerusalem posted:That said there is a lot to be said about the enormous financial and morale cost of buying out the guaranteed payment contracts and bringing in the "top" stars of a failed promotion, many of whom were known for politicking, some of whom had left WWF years earlier and almost put it out of business. There is something to be said for this argument since I think the WWF was being hugely short sighted at the time, and the reasoning is short sighted. I'm not saying it is bad reasoning, it is valid over the short term. But the problem with not bringing these guys in is it cost more in the long run. I used to think that was just a hindsight is 20/20 thing, but then I listened to old Wrestling Observer Lives from the time of the WCW buyout. Meltzer keeps getting asked "So who is being brought in..." "Well probably not Goldberg, Hogan, Nash or Sting. They have guaranteed deals and Vince isn't going to upset his contract structure. But if he doesn't, in a year or two these guys are going to have all of the leverage and will get exactly what they want anyway." Which is exactly what happened. He was wrong about Flair though, he thought Flair would come in right away and that didn't happen. Now, you NEVER, EVER should try to sign all of them at once. But they needed Flair. If Flair was involved it would give the whole thing legitimacy. When you see Flair you think WCW. Or bandaid. On top of that ideally you get one other guy, either Sting or Goldberg. Both present their own problems, but you can break the bank for one. Remember, Vince offered Big Show so much money in early 99 that ERIC BISCHOFF told him to take the deal because he could never match it. Bringing in Big Show for that much didn't cause a talent revolt, nor did paying Tyson millions. So you could get away with it for one guy. (I say one because Flair is insane and wanted it so bad he wasn't going to require a crazy downside to sign, and he would have anyone grumbling about it loving him in 10 seconds.) By not doing that they gave up so much leverage in 2002 and 2003 that it ended up being the worst of both worlds. They paid these guys off in the end, and left them on the open market so a start up with lots of cash could buy them out and bring them in. That ended up being really long and verging on fantasy booking, especially when I don't really think you are wrong.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:45
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Atticus Finch posted:Shane responded with "I know Booker T is near!" Never mind that poo poo, here comes Mongo!
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Jan 25, 2011 23:50
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Jerusalem posted:Just for clarity's sake, I'm not pretending the Invasion angle was done right or the best way it could have been (though I do think it was better than a lot of people give it credit for) but the idea of "just pay millions upon millions of dollars for Goldberg, Hogan, Nash, Hall and Sting and buyrates would have doubled and the ratings would have hit the 10s!" (yes I know that is hyperbole) is simplistic and not realistic. The problem is that by bringing in none of them, the WCW guys had no credibility and the actual WWF vs. WCW part of the angle bombed horribly and lasted like three weeks before it was co-opted as the second stage of the Steve Austin heel debacle, complete with McMahons. I know your gimmick is to find the positive in everything but it cost Vince enormous money in the long run not to be able to do any of those dream matches immediately or a real dream feud. Much, much more than it would have cost to bring in Flair and Goldberg, so your analysis is abjectly horrible. And that's not even counting the enormous, still-continuing nosedive in business after the Invasion debacle, which has to be in part a side effect.
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Jan 25, 2011 23:56
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Sugar Blaster posted:I doubt RVD's drug use was an issue before he got busted since it was like the central part of his character in backstage promos and stuff. Wasn't he simply notorious for hurting people early in his WWE run? He injured Triple H pretty good, when at Survivor series 2002 he went for the 5 star frog splash and his knee landed on Triple H's throat. He busted Regal's mouth open during their match at Wrestlemania 18, as well. I'm sure countless others, too.
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Jan 26, 2011 00:00
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Saying RVD was depushed for being a botch machine in a company that regularly attempts to push green steroid monsters who can't even run the ropes to the moon is a bit myopic.
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Jan 26, 2011 00:03
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jeffersonlives posted:Saying RVD was depushed for being a botch machine in a company that regularly attempts to push green steroid monsters who can't even run the ropes to the moon is a bit myopic. Hurting yourself is a-okay because then you can get a nice pop when you return! 
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Jan 26, 2011 00:05
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jeffersonlives posted:Saying RVD was depushed for being a botch machine in a company that regularly attempts to push green steroid monsters who can't even run the ropes to the moon is a bit myopic. Well given that he wasn't a steroid monster and therefore didn't have people backstage saying "Well yeah he can't wrestle BUT LOOK AT THAT BODY!!" it is understandable. It's retarded, but understandable.
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Jan 26, 2011 00:05
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jeffersonlives posted:I know your gimmick is to find the positive in everything It's more that I try to see the (possible) reasoning behind a decision as opposed to a kneejerk and silly,"But Vince didn't do this because he hates money," statement as is often used. I think where everyone agrees is that the Invasion and the Alliance both had absolutely incredible potential and both were squandered.
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Jan 26, 2011 00:07
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Captain Charisma posted:Well given that he wasn't a steroid monster and therefore didn't have people backstage saying "Well yeah he can't wrestle BUT LOOK AT THAT BODY!!" it is understandable. It's retarded, but understandable. Well yeah but he was really depushed for being a small guy with a non-WWE gimmick that didn't wrestle generically enough. WWE doesn't give a poo poo about botches and drugs if you've got the paint-by-numbers WWE superstar kit.
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Jan 26, 2011 00:07
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This is probably a double post but I feel like it deserves its own post and not a ninja edit soooJerusalem posted:It's more that I try to see the (possible) reasoning behind a decision as opposed to a kneejerk and silly,"But Vince didn't do this because he hates money," statement as is often used. Vince does almost everything to make money. The problem, which has been shown over and over and over again, is that he has a pretty narrow and largely inflexible conception of what makes money. WWF/WWE has destroyed every invasion angle they've ever done within one or two major shows, including ones like the WCW invasion and the Nexus that started out amazingly hot and looked like huge business. I'm pretty sure the problem is with WWE booking mentality because other promotions, hell even other sports, have done wildly successful invasion angles that have led to amazing business. More specifically, I don't think Vince understands that a successful invasion angle has to start with the invaders going over for a long, long time. The invaders need to be established as not just at the level of your top guys but actually above them, and WWE won't push anything as legitimately better than their protected Approved Top Stars at any given time. There's no real threat, and thus no real heat, if your Booker Ts or DDPs are perceived as immediately being pegged lower than The Undertaker and The Rock. Real top WCW guys - not WWE "turncoats" - had to go over the big stars for titles for the Invasion to work. WCW had to win, a lot. And that's where you needed Goldberg and The Outsiders and Sting and Hogan and Flair (or at least some of them). Booker T and DDP weren't the stars that WCW created when it was actually hot and not in the death throes and Booker T and DDP weren't guys that Steve Austin and The Rock were going to lose feuds to.
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Jan 26, 2011 00:17
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The Croc posted:Lashley left as he was dating one of the divas who got canned for not agreeing to be involved with a storyline. Think the story involved that teddy long wedding. Was there even anything offensive about that storyline? I didn't watch Smackdown.
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Jan 26, 2011 00:21
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Role Play McMurphy posted:Was there even anything offensive about that storyline? I didn't watch Smackdown. Wasn't it Kristal getting married to Teddy? And then either her or Vickie giving him a special blue pill that gave him a heart attack?
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Jan 26, 2011 00:23
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Jerusalem posted:It's more that I try to see the (possible) reasoning behind a decision as opposed to a kneejerk and silly,"But Vince didn't do this because he hates money," statement as is often used. Why do you break character for poor Roderick Strong 
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Jan 26, 2011 00:23
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jeffersonlives posted:More specifically, I don't think Vince understands that a successful invasion angle has to start with the invaders going over for a long, long time. The invaders need to be established as not just at the level of your top guys but actually above them, Yeah, the nWo worked because they were seen as WWF guys and they came in and they dominated, it actually made for compelling viewing because they did seem like an unstoppable force of outsiders. Of course WCW then had the opposite problem of the angle being so successful they decided to just keep it going.... and going.... and going and going and going..... MassRayPer posted:Why do you break character for poor Roderick Strong Roddy knows what he did, and if he doesn't..... well that just makes things worse!
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Jan 26, 2011 00:31
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Going back to the question about RVD/Booker, they started mid 2001 and became champions in mid 2006. Eddie and Benoit started in early 2000 and became champions in early 2004 so that's not bad considering they established four big stars for the future (Cena/Batista/Orton/Rey) in the meantime. Jerusalem posted:Shane brings Booker in teet Vince and introduces him as the WCW Champion, Vince grabs Booker by the arm and walks away with him. "What's the matter with you?" he asks,"Can't you see this man is a ni-" then notices it is Booker, apologizes, walks him back, grabs Shane, walks him away and asks,"What's the matter with you? Can't you see this man is a ni?" Unless you count the ecw title he hasn't seriously pushed another black guy since Web Jew.0 fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Jan 26, 2011 |
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Jan 26, 2011 01:21
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Web Jew.0 posted:Unless u count the ecw title he hasn't seriously pushed a black guy since Bobby Lashley was in the middle of an extremely big push when he quit (though he was also built like Brock Lesnar which probably overshadowed any other thought in Vince's mind).
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Jan 26, 2011 01:23
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