Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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HiddenReplaced: Apr 21, 2007; Yeah...
it's wanking time.

Baruch Obamawitz posted:

warhammerchat time:

am I too old to start playing

Yes.

You're the right age for Warhammer 40k, though.

# ? Jan 28, 2011 08:16

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 17:52

Hammer of Loki: Nov 29, 2005; Now get me some nails

Dallan Invictus posted:

You've come so far and still learned NOTHING. Go, cut the last chain and flee!

Actually, I agree with you; I'm really not enthused about doing it. But the parents will pay for all of the prep materials, and I won't have anything better to do in between my graduate school semesters, so meh might as well. Four more words I can add to a resume.

# ? Jan 28, 2011 08:19

Konstantin: Jun 20, 2005; And the Lord said, "Look, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.

I'd think twice, many non-legal people are afraid of hiring lawyers because they think they will get sued at the drop of a hat.

# ? Jan 28, 2011 08:41

Mr. Chupon: Nov 4, 2006; Wait, am I doing this right?

rsvandy posted:

You're not always dealing with some prolific inventor in some cutting edge R&D department. Seriously, the idea of patents is a lot more interesting than the actual experience of procuring a patent. I'd say that the work is pretty boring, but the work-life balance is fantastic. Unfortunately, patent work really is a grind and I'd say that most patent attorneys end up burning out and go in-house where they don't have to prosecute patents anymore.

I've always thought that even 40 hours a week is too much to do something miserable. Are you in (or past) the burnout stage? And is the work-life balance good even for an entry level attorney?

Baruch Obamawitz posted:

No, but the ones that issue aren't that bad, because either they're distinguished over the prior art that I can find, or I know what they need to do to distinguish from the prior art. The grind are the cases I'm never going to allow that they won't abandon.

This sounds just like being an engineer at a big tech company. I bet 25% or more of my time was spent working on projects that were cancelled altogether, and this was at a really profitable company.

Ersatz posted:

If you're interested in what Baruch does you can apply to work as a patent examiner when the next round of recruitment happens. Like Petey says, it's ridiculously cushy. It also pays well and you would gain some perspective into whether or not you really want to lock yourself in to becoming a lawyer.

Thanks for the link, this looks quite interesting. Are these really competitive jobs to get? I'd not heard of them before but they seem to all be in DC and I've never lived there.

What makes them so cushy? The flexible hours? Seems similar to working for some defense contractor.

# ? Jan 28, 2011 10:55

entris: Oct 22, 2008; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Baruch Obamawitz posted:

warhammerchat time:

am I too old to start playing

You can never be too old for the Emperor's service.

# ? Jan 28, 2011 11:43

tau: Mar 20, 2003; Sigillum Universitatis Kansiensis

http://www.abajournal.com/weekly/article/unemployed_editor-in-chief_of_chicago-kent_law_review_blames_book_author

quote:

... But it sounds like David Freedman has the imagination and drive to get where he wants to be sooner or later. Sent a free copy of The Curmudgeon's Guide to Practicing Law by author Mark Herrmann, who serves as Aon's chief litigation counsel, Freedman wrote back to complain that the book had gotten him excited about working and thus only making him more upset about his unemployed state, Herrmann recounts in an Above the Law column.

Admiring his spunk, Herrmann met him for coffee and has now taken Freedman under his wing and is trying to help him reach out to potential employers.

"I must say I was dumbstruck," the in-house counsel writes, "to learn that the editor-in-chief of the Chicago-Kent Law Review is having trouble finding a job, even in a terribly tough job market."

...

Seriously, write angry letter to author, get job. :what:

# ? Jan 28, 2011 14:02

Sulecrist: Apr 5, 2007; Better tear off this bar association logo.

I'm doing Innocence Project during the semester. I'm on an active investigation (a fresh one; we're the first group this guy has had) and it's hella fun and pretty disillusioning in a good way.

Also I'm playing D&D because I sold my space marines to buy textbooks and alcohol but I am tempted daily . . .

# ? Jan 28, 2011 14:16

CmdrSmirnoff: Oct 27, 2005; happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy

Baruch Obamawitz posted:

warhammerchat time:

am I too old to start playing

No, but try out the PC games first (best options are Dawn of War 1/2 and Blood Bowl). The tabletop is largely like the games but takes about a hundred times as long to play and is really not as fun, especially if your friends don't play and you have to deal with people who hang out at Games Workshop (the IRL equivalent of pubbies).

If you just want to paint or model or make armies to pretty up your nerdcave, go for it.

# ? Jan 28, 2011 14:34

Ainsley McTree: Feb 19, 2004

When I bought Dawn of War I heard something rattling around inside the box so I was all "oh boy, maybe it's a free miniature or something" but it turned out the disc just came loose in the jewel casing and got scratched so I had to return it

# ? Jan 28, 2011 14:36

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

CmdrSmirnoff posted:

No, but try out the PC games first (best options are Dawn of War 1/2 and Blood Bowl). The tabletop is largely like the games but takes about a hundred times as long to play and is really not as fun, especially if your friends don't play and you have to deal with people who hang out at Games Workshop (the IRL equivalent of pubbies).

If you just want to paint or model or make armies to pretty up your nerdcave, go for it.

i really like dawn of war so there's that

but yeah i don't know anyone who plays and i went to the local games workshop once and it smelled like nerd

# ? Jan 28, 2011 15:01

CmdrSmirnoff: Oct 27, 2005; happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy happy

Baruch Obamawitz posted:

i really like dawn of war so there's that

but yeah i don't know anyone who plays and i went to the local games workshop once and it smelled like nerd

Never bring a woman into the store.

Never bring a woman into the store.

Anyway just playing the art side of warhams is awesome, and can be done without ever setting foot in the store if you use online dealers. They're cheaper too. I like the Warstore, personally.

# ? Jan 28, 2011 15:19

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

comedy I could play with my wife

# ? Jan 28, 2011 15:37

entris: Oct 22, 2008; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Baruch Obamawitz posted:

i really like dawn of war so there's that

but yeah i don't know anyone who plays and i went to the local games workshop once and it smelled like nerd

Baruch in all seriousness, I would play with you if I could ever bring myself to spend money and buy an army. I have friends who play and it looks like an awesome experience.

Also, I'm terrible with paint so that's a big barrier to entry for me.

I am also terrible at strategy games.

# ? Jan 28, 2011 17:21

quepasa18: Oct 13, 2005

Ainsley McTree posted:

There's a good documentary about (maybe by?) the Innocence Project called After Innocence. I remember this one scene where the guy was talking about a DA who was trying to make a statute of limitations case, and the judge was like "so your position is that even if everything the defendant says is true, and he's factually innocent, he should stay in prison because of the statute of limitations?" and the DA says "yes, that is my position".

Reassuringly the judge was appalled

It's on netflix instant watch if you're interested.

This has been my vaguely law related post for the month. I'll be back when you're talking about warhammer again

I show this documentary in my criminal law class, and my students always find it interesting. So I'll second Ainsley's recommendation to watch it.

# ? Jan 28, 2011 17:30

Petey: Nov 26, 2005; For who knows what is good for a person in life, during the few and meaningless days they pass through like a shadow? Who can tell them what will happen under the sun after they are gone?

Mr. Chupon posted:

And is the work-life balance good even for an entry level attorney?

bleeheehee

quote:

What makes them so cushy? The flexible hours? Seems similar to working for some defense contractor.

After a certain number of years you get to work from home while still getting a six figure salary and great benefits. Many people start up their own businesses on the side doing it.

If you have an engineering background, and you want to be involved with patents, become a patent examiner, you don't need a law degree.

# ? Jan 28, 2011 18:13

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

entris posted:

Baruch in all seriousness, I would play with you if I could ever bring myself to spend money and buy an army. I have friends who play and it looks like an awesome experience.

Also, I'm terrible with paint so that's a big barrier to entry for me.

I am also terrible at strategy games.

gently caress you spend money and let's play

# ? Jan 28, 2011 20:04

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

Petey posted:

After a certain number of years you get to work from home while still getting a six figure salary and great benefits. Many people start up their own businesses on the side doing it.

If you have an engineering background, and you want to be involved with patents, become a patent examiner, you don't need a law degree.

I've been an examiner for three years and last year I made $120k.

I'm contemplating starting a mobile phone app company in my free time.

# ? Jan 28, 2011 20:05

remote control carnivore: May 7, 2009

Today I had to go through a V's DVD collection to assess how much of what he claimed was there for the purposes of restitution.

It was all hentai. :stare:

Needless to say I washed my hands immediately afterwards.

# ? Jan 28, 2011 20:21

Petey: Nov 26, 2005; For who knows what is good for a person in life, during the few and meaningless days they pass through like a shadow? Who can tell them what will happen under the sun after they are gone?

Baruch Obamawitz posted:

I've been an examiner for three years and last year I made $120k.

I'm contemplating starting a mobile phone app company in my free time.

and yet you don't have time to respond back to the draft of our paper

i hate you

# ? Jan 29, 2011 00:02

Chewbacca Defense: Sep 6, 2009; High speed, low drag.

The Arsteia posted:

Hey has anyone here done JAG? What was your experience with it like?

My only experience with JAG so far has been being rejected for their 2L summer internship program. Now, I had expected this to happen, because I'm already an officer with an educational delay, and the internships are generally used to get civilians interested in JAG. Nor do I think that already being in the military entitles me to an internship. But when I saw their list of selectees and saw that there that TWO of the fifty or so were from TOURO COLLEGE SCHOOL OF LAW, my mind began alternating between anger, despair, and nausea. I go to a top-40 school, so even people from the top 100 get selected over me for this program would be fine with me. But Touro is too much.

I could have gone active duty, and had a nice, well paying, fulfilling job. Sure, I would have to deploy, but that never deterred me. Historically, ed-delays like myself were all but asssured to get selected for active duty JAG. Last year they only took twelve of the twenty four our so graduating ed-delays. Now I'm facing the prospect of not getting active duty JAG, something for which I have been training for over five years, and trying to find a civilian job (yipee). Or maybe I will have to do something for the active duty Army that is completely unrelated to law and not get the loan repayment that I was counting on. Or maybe I will be an unemployed Army reservist.

So yea, if you want to go JAG get the highest grades you can and "wow" your interviewer. But it is still a lot of chance. They take people with really good grades from the T14, and people with bad grades.

Chewbacca Defense fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Jan 29, 2011

# ? Jan 29, 2011 00:19

Abugadu: Jul 12, 2004; 1st Sgt. Matthews and the men have Procured for me a cummerbund from a traveling gypsy, who screeched Victory shall come at a Terrible price. i am Honored.

CmdrSmirnoff posted:

Never bring a woman into the store.

Never bring a woman into the store.

Anyway just playing the art side of warhams is awesome, and can be done without ever setting foot in the store if you use online dealers. They're cheaper too. I like the Warstore, personally.

Anytime I bring my wife into a Gamestop/board game store she starts doing that "NEEEEERRRRRDS" thing that Ogre does in Revenge of the Nerds, just loudly enough for the nearest person to hear and feel ashamed.

# ? Jan 29, 2011 04:20

Mattavist: May 24, 2003

That would be you, right?

# ? Jan 29, 2011 04:49

zynga dot com: Nov 11, 2001; wtf jill im not a bear!!!

A dossier and a state of melted brains: The Jess campaign has it all.

How long does the patent bar take to study for anyway - on par with a state bar or worse? I might be able to wring some use out of this degree yet.

# ? Jan 29, 2011 04:52

Ersatz: Sep 17, 2005

Flashdance posted:

How long does the patent bar take to study for anyway - on par with a state bar or worse? I might be able to wring some use out of this degree yet.

In terms of difficulty the patent bar is more like the MPRE than a state bar. I spent around 40 hours studying for it and I think that was probably more than was necessary. Take some practice exams and learn to search the MPEP and you'll be good.

# ? Jan 29, 2011 05:50

Elotana: Dec 12, 2003; and i'm putting it all on the goddamn expense account

Flashdance posted:

How long does the patent bar take to study for anyway - on par with a state bar or worse? I might be able to wring some use out of this degree yet.

Elotana posted:

Here's how you pass the patent bar y'all (Linguica put this in the OP):

1. Be a nerd under the age of 30 who knows how to use google and can search using strings and phrases, if you are old or not a computer nerd ask one to help you (they don't need to know anything about patents or whatever) (also what are you doing on this forum)

2. Download the MPEP (individual PDFs for each chapter) and Acrobat 5 (it's what Prometric uses) and make your screen resolution tiny so your interface will be similar to what it is on the exam
3. Go here and spend a few hours walking through the 2003 repeats so you can be and answer instantly when they give you a recognizable repeat question, this will also get you familiar with what to search for each subject

4. Take the patent bar: Congratulations you've passed!

Note the complete absence of "prep course" or "patent electives" or even "knowing jack poo poo about law and/or engineering" in this method.

# ? Jan 29, 2011 05:54

Macnigore: Aug 9, 2008

So what is the proper title when you adress a US lawyer ?

In France people call lawyers "Ma�tre", literally "Master". It's a little odd at first but you quite get used to it :smug:

# ? Jan 29, 2011 10:29

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Macnigore posted:

So what is the proper title when you adress a US lawyer ?

In France people call lawyers "Ma�tre", literally "Master". It's a little odd at first but you quite get used to it

Mr./Ms./Mrs.

Technically, you could argue that it could be Dr. (Juris Doctorate), bt you'd be a douchebag.
Similarly, Mr. X, esq. is proper (and somewhat common), but that also makes you look like a douche bag.

# ? Jan 29, 2011 10:48

A Fistful of Dicks: Jan 8, 2011

Macnigore posted:

So what is the proper title when you adress a US lawyer ?

In France people call lawyers "Ma�tre", literally "Master". It's a little odd at first but you quite get used to it

There really isn't one. In court, the judge may refer to one as "counselor X", but otherwise, it's really just "Mr./Ms. Whoever".

I haven't been reading the thread/above the law/any other legal news since early last fall; is it safe to assume that the legal employment market for newly-minted grads is still pants-shittingly bad in all respects, including government?

# ? Jan 29, 2011 10:48

zynga dot com: Nov 11, 2001; wtf jill im not a bear!!!

A dossier and a state of melted brains: The Jess campaign has it all.

Thanks guys, that sounds a lot less intensive than I had thought. I was skeptical I'd be able to do it during school but it sounds maybe feasible now.

# ? Jan 29, 2011 11:36

Solomon Grundy: Feb 10, 2007; Born on a Monday

A Fistful of Dicks posted:

I haven't been reading the thread/above the law/any other legal news since early last fall; is it safe to assume that the legal employment market for newly-minted grads is still pants-shittingly bad in all respects, including government?

Yes for the rank and file. T14 seems to be recovering a little.

# ? Jan 29, 2011 12:48

Mattavist: May 24, 2003

Old people call me "Attorney" a lot and it's weird to be like "Hey just call me Matt".

# ? Jan 29, 2011 15:01

Napoleon I: Oct 31, 2005; Goons of the Fifth, you recognize me. If any man would shoot his emperor, he may do so now.

Using Mr. and Esq. at the same time is a serious faux pas.

# ? Jan 29, 2011 15:22

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

Petey posted:

and yet you don't have time to respond back to the draft of our paper

i hate you

it's almost like warhammer requires less attention than reading our dumb paper

# ? Jan 29, 2011 15:30

Feces Starship: Nov 11, 2008; in the great green room
goodnight moon

Solomon Grundy posted:

Yes for the rank and file. T14 seems to be recovering a little.

Totally just a data point but it seems things are remarkably better at Columbia, but still not close to as good as it used to be.

# ? Jan 29, 2011 16:31

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

Petey posted:

and yet you don't have time to respond back to the draft of our paper

i hate you

In all seriousness, I've been working ten hour days all week and have been kinda burnt out from thinking. I'm going to get to the paper tomorrow.

entris posted:

Baruch in all seriousness, I would play with you if I could ever bring myself to spend money and buy an army. I have friends who play and it looks like an awesome experience.

Also, I'm terrible with paint so that's a big barrier to entry for me.

I am also terrible at strategy games.

Jesus christ, spend $90 and let's do this thing

# ? Jan 29, 2011 17:39

gvibes: Jan 18, 2010; Leading us to the promised land (i.e., one tournament win in five years)

Baruch Obamawitz posted:

In all seriousness, I've been working ten hour days all week and have been kinda burnt out from thinking. I'm going to get to the paper tomorrow.

I dream of 10 hour days. I just spent three days working basically 8 am to 3 am. I slept ten hours last night and am still a zombie.

# ? Jan 29, 2011 18:14

Ainsley McTree: Feb 19, 2004

Napoleon I posted:

Using Mr. and Esq. at the same time is a serious faux pas.

Does anyone ever use "esquire" out loud (unironically)? I don't think I've ever heard it.

# ? Jan 29, 2011 19:07

Phil Moscowitz: Feb 19, 2007; If blood be the price of admiralty,
Lord God, we ha' paid in full!

pretty much just bill and ted

# ? Jan 29, 2011 19:22

TheImmigrant: Jan 18, 2011

Ainsley McTree posted:

Does anyone ever use "esquire" out loud (unironically)? I don't think I've ever heard it.

Not that I know of. I only use it when addressing other attorneys in print.

And yes, using both mister and esquire is very belt-and-suspenders.

# ? Jan 29, 2011 19:51

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 17:52

10-8: Oct 2, 2003; Level 14 Bureaucrat

Baruch Obamawitz posted:

In all seriousness, I've been working ten hour days all week and have been kinda burnt out from thinking.

Does the patent office have credit hours for these situations? If I work an 11-hour day, I get three credit hours that are essentially extra annual leave to be used whenever I want. It essentially protects us from ever having to work any unpaid overtime.

# ? Jan 29, 2011 20:20

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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