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Take me off the list. No time to participate. 
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Jan 29, 2011 18:36
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Agent Interrobang posted:The Word of Blake is more like a bunch of telecom repairmen deciding they worship the Internet, and declaring war on the entire world because they're tired of fielding tech support calls. You're some kind of a noted wit in your land, aren't you. I think this should be the canon definition for WoB.
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Jan 29, 2011 18:58
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I work for AT&T tech support and I assure you that would drive anyone to murderous rage if not government toppling insanity. protip: AT&T isn't responsible that your computer won't turn on 
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Jan 29, 2011 19:10
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Der Waffle Mous posted:
Your points are entirely fair on their production capacity and intelligence operations. That said, they also undermine the Word of Blake's entire stated modus operandi: they don't need to conquer the Inner Sphere by force, they ALREADY rule it from the shadows. Think about it. Every single government, business, and civilian organization in the entire Inner Sphere relies upon the HPG relay network. ComStar is the only group that can fix, maintain, and operate the HPG relays. They already have a total information monopoly, where everybody pays them for the right to send and receive information, which ComStar can look through freely. So what the hell does the Word of Blake GAIN by attacking anyone? All they do is drop themselves into a protracted war against entities whose entire history is predicated upon waging protracted wars. Sure, they MIGHT win, but they might lose too(which they did). And then nobody trusts them anymore, the sane members of ComStar boot them out so they can't gently caress with the HPG relays anymore, and they just turn into yet another failed proto-Successor State. My point is, the Word of Blake essentially traded unrestricted societal control over the entirety of the inhabited galaxy for a long, pointless war that left them worse off than when they started, a result which had to have been totally obvious from day one to any sane leaders within the faction. Even assuming they COULD have conquered everybody, it doesn't get them anything they didn't already have, besides fifty billion more logistical problems and a population who hates and mistrusts them.
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Jan 29, 2011 20:11
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about the Word of Blake
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The WoB attached a shitton of significance to the Star League. I think the jihad was originally going to be them wiping out the Clans to show the rest of the League how awesome they were now that they were members. Then it disbanded and they went nuts. WoB isn't, after all, a single group but actually a loose collection of crazy sects. As long as Blaine could keep control (with the whole Star League prophecy, most likely) they weren't too dangerous, but when the Star League that Blaine had hung his hat on went belly up, he lost his credibility and his control, and so Cameron St. Jamais stepped up. St. Jamais is crazy as gently caress. Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Jan 29, 2011 |
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Jan 29, 2011 20:25
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I thought the Jihad was about trying to return the world to the dark age of technology where ComStar was the only one that could produce advanced tech, and take over that way.
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Jan 29, 2011 23:40
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Axe-man posted:I work for AT&T tech support and I assure you that would drive anyone to murderous rage if not government toppling insanity. AT&T isn't responsible for a lot of things, and that's why they piss off a lot of sane, intelligent people too. I've had to do over the phone tech support myself, and yeah, there are a lot of idiots out there. But it still pisses me off when I have to call tech support, in general (usually because a warranty requires you to have tech support submit a ticket before you can get them to fix something, even if you know what's wrong already) they're very dismissive of you and treat you like an idiot. The worst was when I was dealing with Dell tech support when I worked at a computer repair shop. They required you to submit a ticket with tech support before they'd send a part out under warranty, even if you were a Dell certified repair center. So every time someone brought us something under warranty, we had to argue with an indian guy whose technical knowledge consisted of flipping through a binder they gave him and asking stupid, unrelated questions.
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Jan 29, 2011 23:44
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Gothsheep posted:I thought the Jihad was about trying to return the world to the dark age of technology where ComStar was the only one that could produce advanced tech, and take over that way. That's certainly what it became. Initially, though, a lot of those WarShips were intended as gifts I think. They were painted in Star League, not Word, colors.
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Jan 29, 2011 23:48
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Gothsheep posted:I thought the Jihad was about trying to return the world to the dark age of technology where ComStar was the only one that could produce advanced tech, and take over that way. Short version: The Wobbies were about to get a seat in the new Star League and were hoping to "restore the glorious days of yore" by kicking the crap out of the CLans with their secret army followed by getting their "rightful place" as the power behind the throne for the new Star League. Then the new Star League disbanded just after they were admitted membership. From that point on, what the Wobbies did was basically like a 5-year-old who goes on a rampage because you didn't give him his cookies. The more sane parts of the WOB might have come up with such plans while doing that, but at its heart, the Jihad was basically a bunch of religious extremists with a lot of firepower throwing a hissy fit at everyone for ruining their prophetic destiny.
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Jan 30, 2011 00:20
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Defiance Industries posted:That's certainly what it became. Initially, though, a lot of those WarShips were intended as gifts I think. They were painted in Star League, not Word, colors. Right, I'm just saying, it follows an overall story arc. First was the fall of the Star League and the dark age of technology, when nobody but ComStar remembered how this stuff worked. ComStar grew more and more cult-like as their tech took on pseudo-mystical properties, until they're literally killing anybody who could end the dark age. Finally the Gray Death Legion pulls it off with the Helm Memory Core, and the Clan Invasion that follows forces ComStar into the role of defender of the Inner Sphere using their 'more advanced than the Inner Sphere but not quite as advanced as the Clans' technology. After that, the bulk of ComStar settles into the role of 'peacekeeper' in the Inner Sphere, becoming more worldly as their technology gets more widespread and understood, losing the mystical quality it had. Finally those who still cling to the 'old ways' start to say 'Man, life was way better back during the Dark Age. Let's make that happen again,' and bam! Jihad. As for their MO...Again, I've never actually read the books (or any BattleTech novels) but I thought they were kind of like the Shadows from Babylon 5, getting other people to start wars and using their tech mostly to make sure the wars were as destructive as possible. EDIT ^^^^ Oh. I guess the way they were explained to me made them seem a lot more sinister and a lot less childish.
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Jan 30, 2011 00:22
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Agent Interrobang posted:Yeah. Like how when the Ghost Bears conquered most of the Free Rasalhague Republic, after about 4 or 5 years they just said 'yeah, okay, we're opening up Freeborn Sibkos to anybody who wants to sign up, Clan-born or not.' Hell, their standing saKhan, and the Elected First Prince of the Free Rasalhague Republic, is Ragnar Magnusson, an Inner Sphere-born Rasalhague native. This is why Clan Ghost Bear is my favorite clan. Rather than being all crotchety and saying "If it was good enough Nicholas Kerensky, it's good enough for us and you drat Wardens get off my lawn!" they instead adapted to the situation. Even though they technically lost the fight that brought Ragnar Magnusson over from the Wolves In Exile, it was a net win having the former heir of a large chunk of the people you recently conquered become a high ranking officer. And having your militaries recruiting and manufacturing base surrounded by jealous neighbors with equal technology hundreds of light years from where the biggest chunk of your army is located is a dumb idea. Also, Kodiaks 
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Jan 30, 2011 00:37
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Bad Moon posted:This is why Clan Ghost Bear is my favorite clan. Rather than being all crotchety and saying "If it was good enough Nicholas Kerensky, it's good enough for us and you drat Wardens get off my lawn!" they instead adapted to the situation. Even though they technically lost the fight that brought Ragnar Magnusson over from the Wolves In Exile, it was a net win having the former heir of a large chunk of the people you recently conquered become a high ranking officer. And having your militaries recruiting and manufacturing base surrounded by jealous neighbors with equal technology hundreds of light years from where the biggest chunk of your army is located is a dumb idea. Yeah, the Nova Cats and Snow Ravens did similar things; and the Nova Cats upped the ante by adopting the emblem of the old Star League as their own as the ultimate "gently caress you" to the Clans that still claimed to want to reinstate it. So much assholery. But yeah, the integration of the clans into the Inner Sphere was a really neat story, and one that the Blake stuff seemed to cut off and marginalize. Which is another reason that part of the canon irks me a lot.
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Jan 30, 2011 00:40
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Bad Moon posted:This is why Clan Ghost Bear is my favorite clan. Rather than being all crotchety and saying "If it was good enough Nicholas Kerensky, it's good enough for us and you drat Wardens get off my lawn!" they instead adapted to the situation. Even though they technically lost the fight that brought Ragnar Magnusson over from the Wolves In Exile, it was a net win having the former heir of a large chunk of the people you recently conquered become a high ranking officer. And having your militaries recruiting and manufacturing base surrounded by jealous neighbors with equal technology hundreds of light years from where the biggest chunk of your army is located is a dumb idea. Also, Arcas.  Seriously, have I mentioned how much I loving love that thing? Plus Ragnar was always my favorite minor character from the Clan Invasion books anyway. I still think the bit where he and the rest of the Wolves-In-Exile just straight-up jack the ENTIRE Sixth Jaguar Dragoons Cluster in a Trial of Possession is the coolest usage of the Trials we ever get to see. "Sup, Jaguars? Guess what: you're in our army now. Hope you guys love working for Wardens who are about to completely annihilate your former Clan!  "
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Jan 30, 2011 00:54
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It's very classic use of dramatic irony that everyone who claims to want to restore the Star League has smashed and torn it down for 500 years. Just a nice bit of theme in the writing. It's very Homeric. Successor Lords? Obliterated the Inner Sphere's industrial base. ComStar? Maintained the Dark Age beyond its life expectancy. Clans? Raped and pillaged their way through 1/4 of what was once the Star League. Word of Blake? Plunged the Inner Sphere into a new dark age. When will they just kind of forget about the Star League? If they actually managed to get their poo poo together for 100 years they would probably start expanding again and then owning Terra would finally become truly meaningless.
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Jan 30, 2011 01:02
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Agent Interrobang posted:"Sup, Jaguars? Guess what: you're in our army now. Hope you guys love working for Wardens who are about to completely annihilate your former Clan! As far as the Clan warriors go, they probably do. Clan society is weird, but a bondsman tends to consider it more dishonorable to not jive with the attitude of your new leaders than to immediately turn on your old comrades and start those you fought side-by-side with.
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Jan 30, 2011 01:08
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Arglebargle III posted:It's very classic use of dramatic irony that everyone who claims to want to restore the Star League has smashed and torn it down for 500 years. Just a nice bit of theme in the writing. It's very Homeric. Then Devlin Stone basically did that and founded the Republic, which is awesome (I'm a sucker for any government that just identifies itself as 'The Republic', not especially representing any one national-ethnic identity).
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Jan 30, 2011 01:13
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Arglebargle III posted:If they actually managed to get their poo poo together for 100 years they would probably start expanding again and then owning Terra would finally become truly meaningless. From the few books I ever read, it always seemed like the only people who gave two shits about Terra were the naive cannon fodder. The actual leaders and influential people all seemed to disregard it completely.
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Jan 30, 2011 01:14
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Dolash posted:Then Devlin Stone basically did that and founded the Republic, which is awesome (I'm a sucker for any government that just identifies itself as 'The Republic', not especially representing any one national-ethnic identity). You've gotta admit, it's got some catch to it. That's probably why it was used a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. 
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Jan 30, 2011 01:16
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Veyrall posted:From the few books I ever read, it always seemed like the only people who gave two shits about Terra were the naive cannon fodder. The actual leaders and influential people all seemed to disregard it completely. Well, the Clans really wanted Terra. That was their ultimate goal.
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Jan 30, 2011 01:17
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Gothsheep posted:Well, the Clans really wanted Terra. That was their ultimate goal. Oh, well, okay. Cannon fodder and the Clans then. I almost want to get into the BT fiction, but I don't feel like tracking down each and every last novel. Are there omnibuses that compile them all together? I wanna say I've seen at least one. Also, are there any I can safely skip? Edit: Ahh, looks like most of them are listed as trilogies instead of omnibuses, which makes sense. I only hope I don't have to read ALL of them. I'd like to get up to speed at least a little before the thread ends. Veyrall fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Jan 30, 2011 |
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Jan 30, 2011 01:22
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I know there's an Omnibus for Blood of Kerensky, but I can't recall if there are any others.
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Jan 30, 2011 01:23
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Agent Interrobang posted:I know there's an Omnibus for Blood of Kerensky, but I can't recall if there are any others. IIRC there's one for the Warrior trilogy, too.
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Jan 30, 2011 01:32
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I enjoyed the Warrior Trilogy. It wasn't particularly good, but it was fun to read. Seeing Hanse be all  every other chapter never got old.I would've liked the Kell Hounds parts better if it wasn't basically Wolves on the Border with magic powers, though.
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Jan 30, 2011 01:34
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Yeah, Blood of Kerensky and the Warrior trilogy both jumped out and have been added to my wishlist. Will those two work to give a pretty decent knowledge of the era, or are there any other stories that might be enlightening/fun to read? Edit: Oh hey, it turns out I have and old copy of Twilight of the Clans 3! Handy. Edit 2: Stumbled across this little entry while I was combing Amazon. "Hit Animated Series" indeed. Veyrall fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Jan 30, 2011 |
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Jan 30, 2011 01:35
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^^: Twilight of the Clans was a pretty important series of books, but takes place a decade after BoK. Also there's like 12 of them. After that you get into the FedCom civil war books.Veyrall posted:Also, are there any I can safely skip? If you only read a handful of books, make it the Blood of Kerensky trilogy. There are quite a few books that don't fit into the central narrative 'trunk' (Milan's Camachos Caballeros books, for instance, or the ones about Jeremiah Rose, etc) but BoK is pretty much everything you need to know about the setting in 3 handy paperbacks. The thing with 'important' (trunk) BattleTech books is that a lot of them are basically told from Victor Davion's perspective, which makes the FedCom the de facto 'good guys'. But Stackpole wrote all the trunk books when he did BT stuff, so that's just the way it shook out. WarLocke fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Jan 30, 2011 |
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Jan 30, 2011 01:37
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The Jade Phoenix trilogy is also available in Omnibus form, though I don't recall whether it was worth reading or not. I just see it sticking out from my bookshelf. It's a shame I can't remember which of the ones I liked and which I didn't, because they just all kind of run together in my head. I've got the whole stack sitting on the bookshelf above my computer, so if I could remember any of them specifically, it'd be easy to make recommendations.
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Jan 30, 2011 01:40
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Zaodai posted:The Jade Phoenix trilogy is also available in Omnibus form, though I don't recall whether it was worth reading or not. I just see it sticking out from my bookshelf. Eh, Aidan Pryde was as much a mary sue as Victor or Kai; although IIRC Joanna gets introduced in there somewhere so it's worth it for her. I'm in the same boat as far as needing to re-read the books because my memory's getting fuzzy, but I want to say I remember Bred for War and Assumption of Risk as being a couple of really good books. Edit: Also, I'd like to remind everyone that no matter how silly BattleTech can get, it has nothing that compares to this WarLocke fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Jan 30, 2011 |
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Jan 30, 2011 01:42
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The Jade Phoenix trilogy was the first Battletech novel I found, so it has a special place in my heart. Horse owns 
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Jan 30, 2011 01:49
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Arglebargle III posted:When will they just kind of forget about the Star League? If they actually managed to get their poo poo together for 100 years they would probably start expanding again and then owning Terra would finally become truly meaningless. Despite what Focht (for some really confusing reason) will tell you, Terra's worth way more than just a symbolic planet. Most planets only have one valuable world. Terra has Mars, Luna, Terra itself, the Asteroid Belt and Titan. It's got a shitton of mech, tank and ASF factories, and not only DropShip AND JumpShip yards, but completely self-contained WarShip yards. It's like getting a Hesperus II and a Galax and a Luthien all at once. Second, Terra is the central hub of the HPG network. Controlling it allows you to control every other HPG in existence. That is kind of a big deal. Also, the place is stocked to the brim with pristine equipment hidden in giant warehouses under the bottom of the ocean floor and poo poo. Terra's got a LOT of practical purpose.
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Jan 30, 2011 01:54
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Yeah, you know how it's a big loving deal when mercs find, like, eight Lostech Star League mechs in an underground hangar somewhere? Terra has like a thousand of those places, plus manufacturing facilities. With the ability to bring in outside resources, Terra is basically a gigantic factory waiting to churn out war machines.
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Jan 30, 2011 01:56
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Hey, what was the one that took place on Solaris? That was a pretty good one, though it didn't particularly expand the universe. There was Davion vs Steiner vs Clans dynamic in some of the stable fights, and the stuff that happens at the end of the book, but it's not like there is anything that spans a bunch of worlds. Just good old fashioned giant robot fights for profit. Regarding DI's post: Terra has a lot of practical purpose, but it's not particularly easy to capture for a lot of the reasons you mentioned, and it would be hard to take all that stuff in tact if you're fighting a war over it. Plus, Terra is just one planet, it's just that the Sol system happens to have all that stuff within it's confines. The shipyards you can probably combine into Terra proper, but Mars, Titan and the rest are not "Terra". Strictly speaking.
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Jan 30, 2011 01:57
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Seems to me that the name of the primary planet in a given system is usually synonymous with the entire star system itself.
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Jan 30, 2011 02:08
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Zaodai posted:Hey, what was the one that took place on Solaris? That was a pretty good one, though it didn't particularly expand the universe. There was Davion vs Steiner vs Clans dynamic in some of the stable fights, and the stuff that happens at the end of the book, but it's not like there is anything that spans a bunch of worlds. That was Assumption of Risk if I'm remembering correctly. It's a Kai-centric book, takes place in 3054 or something, Kai goes back to Solaris to defend his father's place as champion or something along those lines while also doing cloak and dagger junk for Victor (IIRC) although the specifics elude me. I do remember at one point he ends up fighting in a Penetrator and the other side has a Goliath; I remember that because they make a big deal about the other dude being a great pilot/gladiator but he's in such a lovely mech I have no idea how he got that far in Solaris.
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Jan 30, 2011 02:12
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Yeah- from the impressions that I've got, the Terra system if it were an independent political entity would be behind only the Successor States/MAJOR Clans as powers; and whether or not it'd be behind every one of the successor states is up for debate. Also, Joanna rules.
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Jan 30, 2011 02:13
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Mukaikubo posted:Also, Joanna rules. Hells yeah. I always found it awesome that Joanna is basically the Clan ideal in terms of warriors, but because she's seen as an old, washed-up warrior nobody gives her any real respect. Because they've forgotten what they supposedly believe in. Joanna  (we need a :jadefalcon: smiley like that)
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Jan 30, 2011 02:17
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WarLocke posted:That was Assumption of Risk if I'm remembering correctly. It's a Kai-centric book, takes place in 3054 or something, Kai goes back to Solaris to defend his father's place as champion or something along those lines while also doing cloak and dagger junk for Victor (IIRC) although the specifics elude me. That also is the one where I think Katrina Steiner goes from harmless social butterfly to I Don't Give A gently caress power monger. WarLocke posted:Joanna Horse and Joanna. Friends forever because nobody will give them the sweet release of death. Its Rinaldo fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Jan 30, 2011 |
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Jan 30, 2011 02:21
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Well aside from hardware, I think all the Successor States that truly want to revive the Star League see it as the ultimate prestige item. The Star League was created by Terrans and ruled from Terra, and of course Terra is the origin of humanity. Any ruler who wants to genuinely claim lordship over the entire human race would need Terra as a symbol of legitimacy. But if the Inner Sphere went through another period of geometric expansion, there would be no point. Terra is so vitally important because it's at the geographic, political, technological and social center of the human race. Hell the Inner Sphere itself is defined by Terra's location. If humanity spread out enough, though, they would lose that connection and other places would become truly independent regional centers. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Jan 30, 2011 |
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Jan 30, 2011 02:25
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WarLocke posted:That was Assumption of Risk if I'm remembering correctly. It's a Kai-centric book, takes place in 3054 or something, Kai goes back to Solaris to defend his father's place as champion or something along those lines while also doing cloak and dagger junk for Victor (IIRC) although the specifics elude me. Nah, not that one. There's one that just follows some nobody in (I believe) Blackstar Stables. And then poo poo got real. [EDIT] Found it by looking up Blackstar Stables on the wiki. The book is Illusions of Victory.
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Jan 30, 2011 02:31
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Arglebargle III posted:Well aside from hardware, I think all the Successor States that truly want to revive the Star League see it as the ultimate prestige item. The Star League was created by Terrans and ruled from Terra, and of course Terra is the origin of humanity. Any ruler who wants to genuinely claim lordship over the entire human race would need Terra as a symbol of legitimacy. Like the that place vaguely based off reconquista era spain that may or may not be made up of lost Clan Wolverine members, or the Jarnsfolk, or the ominous-sounding RWR Outpost that appeared in a single Comstar-centric book and never again afterwards.
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Jan 30, 2011 02:44
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Don't forget the planet with bird aliens that worship a Locust 
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Jan 30, 2011 02:55
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