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themindisonfire posted:What breeds are this dog and Hrafn? I didn't see it mentioned anywhere. They're absolutely gorgeous! Hrafn is a Czechoslovakian Vlcak, and Warbadger's muttkins is like a Shepherd/Husky mix, IIRC? Yes, they're quite the pretty pups. 
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Jan 29, 2011 06:43
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themindisonfire posted:What breeds are this dog and Hrafn? I didn't see it mentioned anywhere. They're absolutely gorgeous! I mean.. PUREBREAD 99.98% EUROPEAN WOLF AND TUNDRAHOUND.
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Jan 29, 2011 06:46
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Kiri koli posted:Unfortunately a lot of times when a deterrent like a prong collar is removed, the dog is smart enough to notice the difference and can start old behavior again as up saw with the gentle leader. Just like the gentle leader, yes. My hope is that the prong collar can train him well enough so that I can correct him with the regular collar eventually. My other hope is that since he's only a year old (in fact his birthday is on Wednesday) he'll eventually grow out of it. Kiri koli posted:Did you try stopping or turning around and walking in the other direction when your dog pulls? Yes his response was "oh we're going this way now?" *pullpullpull* He doesn't really care which way he goes, he just wants to run there at full speed. Siochain posted:If you want to get around the "conditioning" aspect of it, do what I've started doing...regular collar and prong collar on. I randomly attach one to the leash. This is a good idea, thank you.
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Jan 29, 2011 22:58
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Why are you so set on using correction based training?
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Jan 29, 2011 23:41
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What's wrong with correction based training? I use what works. Sometimes rewards based training works, sometimes correction training works. What would you suggest?
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Jan 30, 2011 00:25
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Vino posted:What's wrong with correction based training? I use what works. Sometimes rewards based training works, sometimes correction training works. What would you suggest? The problem with correction based training is that a lot of the time people do not utilize it properly. If you correct a dog without showing it what it should be doing, then eventually you will merely suppress the dog's behavior through accumulated punishments. The dog hasn't learned anything and doesn't understand what it is doing wrong, but avoids the punishment in a very submissive sort of way. You can decide for yourself if you think this is traumatic for the dog. There are times when corrections can work, but I tend to try to exhaust all reward attempts first and I don't like to use pain. I do tell my dog No! when she barks and such. If your dog is just as happy to go in any direction (as mine is) then I suggest trying a dead stop when he pulls. Also, you could try finding an irresistible treat for walks. Remember that you need to start with no distractions and work up to things like squirrels and whatnot. You can even take your dog for walks around your home. I think the regular collar/prong collar idea is pretty novel and may work, but personally I don't think I would ever use a prong collar. It would definitely be detrimental to my dog, who is already reactive.
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Jan 30, 2011 02:21
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rivals posted:Why are you so set on using correction based training? Not sure if that's aimed at me or not, but in case it is, I'll explain why I'm doing what I'm doing and maybe someone has some ideas for me! Asa was doing AWESOME with heel's up until winter, all using positive reinforcement - aka treats. However, its now -30 Celsius or colder a lot of days, and I have to wear gloves. Have to. 30 minute or more walks without just do not work. As the cold winter months stretched by (aka since late sept/early oct), she really really quickly degraded back to her "pullpullchokegagpukepullpull" mentality. And I just cannot get treats out adequately to help the behavior - either she can gum all the treats out at once from my gloved hand, or I freeze my hand and, well, yeah. So, back to the prong collar. I tried doing heel work at home - in the house, she's a goddamn show-ring ready pooch. Step out the door... And we don't have any good indoor areas I can take her :/ Apparently one of the big indoor walky-arena places used to allow dogs...until too many idiots spoiled it. So if anyone has some decent ideas for how to positive reinforce a HEAVILY food motivated dog in -30 with thick gloves on - please feel free to fire away.
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Jan 30, 2011 02:35
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Vino posted:What's wrong with correction based training? I use what works. Sometimes rewards based training works, sometimes correction training works. What would you suggest? Kiri koli covered a lot of it, but to me it sounds like your dog just doesn't know what he's supposed to be doing. I would highly recommend going all the way back to step one and starting off in an area with zero distractions whatsoever. I'm fairly certain I've seen a life less write this out in full a poo poo ton before so I'll just give an overview, but the training megathread should have it somewhere. Basically start off on leash inside the house. Get him into a heel position and treat him for being there. Keep doing that (you can even shape it if you need to) until he understands that that is where he wants to be because awesome things happen when he's there. Then start off slow, one step at a time. You take a step and he follows while still being in a heel position? GREAT, click and treat. Keep building on that until he's good around the house. Then move to a familiar area with some distractions (backyard is great, if not then somewhere you walk him often like right in front of where you live) and keep doing the same. It takes a long loving time but it's well worth it. When he does start pulling just stop moving, wait until he's back in a heel position (or call him and lead him into the correct position) and then continue once he's focused and calm. My Husky was the exact same way you describe, turning around never did a loving thing because he'd just pull in that direction. Now if he ever gets tight on the leash, I stop moving, he walks back into heel position and sits then focuses on me (a great time to have a solid watch command) and when he's calm we start going again. It's taken many months and a poo poo ton of patience but we're finally having walks where I don't need to stop a single time. If you need any clarification or help or anything please check out the training megathread as I'm almost positive there's a lot of loose leash walking tips in there, and feel free ask if there isn't. Siochain posted:Not sure if that's aimed at me or not It wasn't.
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Jan 30, 2011 03:02
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Kiri koli posted:The problem with correction based training is that a lot of the time people do not utilize it properly. No worries, my friend. I never hurt the dog and only use a correction at the very instant when he's doing something he's not supposed to do to make sure he understands the connection. It's not used when I want him to do something, only when I want him to stop doing something. I don't even use words like "No" but rather I've taught him that snapping means disapproval, and usually that's enough to get him off whatever he's doing. Then other times I'll use treats or affection to encourage behaviors, like where he should sleep, what he can chew, how to behave around food, tricks, yadeya. Corrections sound harsh but it's really not the way I use them. If snapping doesn't work, a soft poke to the chest or ribs lets him know I mean business. There's never any pain involved for the dog or anger involved on my part. I like to give myself as many tools as possible to get a job done, so if corrections work (and don't hurt the dog) there's no reason not to use them. I tried dead stops for a while and it worked for about five seconds after I started moving, and then he'd be off running again in one direction or another. They're also tough for me because usually my walk with the dog is actually a run. I still use them though if the pulling gets really bad, if only to give him a chance to calm down. @rivals I like what you've described. We did this when he was a 3 month puppy and he seemed to respond to it well. When he was smaller and he couldn't outrun me, he'd obviously never pull, he grew into it later. I never thought to go back and try that exercise again. It's food based and he doesn't react very well to that but it's worth a shot, maybe I can make it work. Thank you for the help. I may have seen that post you're talking about by a life less where she links a video with her training her two dogs and drops the leashes at the end. Is that the one you mean?
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Jan 30, 2011 14:34
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Vino posted:I tried dead stops for a while and it worked for about five seconds after I started moving, and then he'd be off running again in one direction or another. They're also tough for me because usually my walk with the dog is actually a run. I still use them though if the pulling gets really bad, if only to give him a chance to calm down. My guess is that you've not had success with using positive reinforcement to encourage loose leash walking is because either a) you're not using exciting enough rewards, b) you're not reinforcing often enough or quickly enough, c) you're moving too quickly and haven't laid the ground work in moderately distracting environments (went from no distractions to lots) or d) you're not exciting enough to your dog. Don't be afraid to use boiled chicken, pizza, peanut butter, etc as rewards -- they tend to be very high value for dogs. Life rewards can also be very motivating to a dog: walk nicely with me and I'll let you sniff that tree, sit and focus on me and you'll get to greet that dog. And don't be afraid to use stupid voices and erratic movements to keep your dog's focus on you. You'll look a bit odd to your neighbours, but it should help. Check out this article by Susan Clothier about proper prong collar use: http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/53/97/. She no longer uses prongs in her own training, but has reposted that article to give people some insight into how to properly use one. Corrections should not be given with the prong -- snapping the leash quickly to cause pain is not acceptable, etc. I like the idea to use a leash attached to a flat collar while the prong is still on the dog -- it sounds like a good way to wean a dog off. Another idea is to put on the prong, but flip it around so the prongs are pointing outwards. I don't have a particular problem with prongs as long as they're being used correctly (that said, I never recommend their use). They're not a crutch -- they're a training tool. I feel like they should be paired with positive reinforcement to show the dog that it's immensely reinforcing to walk beside you. I see too many people just slap one on their dog and call it a day, but the dog is merely being managed, not trained. Finally, I personally have never had success with teaching loose leash walking with corrections. The dogs I've had just never really got it. I've had huge success using positive reinforcement, however. I honestly believe that it's just a more effective way to both teach and learn. a life less fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Jan 30, 2011 |
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Jan 30, 2011 15:59
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Vino posted:
This was my problem too. It was very frustrating for both me and Moxie. The first time I tried dead stops I gave up pretty quickly. However after another month or two of walks with her pulling and me trying other things I went back to square one with the dead stops. It seriously took fifteen minutes to walk up to the corner and back because she would pull the second we started moving again. But I would stop every.single.drat.time. We'd go about a step and a half in between stops. But you know what? She finally got it. She doesn't return to a sit and focus or anything, but it's been a week or so of consistently stopping and she really has improved. We still stop a lot on walks but now we can actually have a walk where neither of us is frustrated and where she actually gets a bit of exercise. I can see her pause for a step or two when the leash gets tight. Maybe dead stops are worth another go. The challenge is having the patience for it until the dog understands that yes, every single time they pull they end up stopped.
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Jan 30, 2011 16:26
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a life less posted:
First, awesome article, just skimmed it now but a full read is in order after a cold-assed-mother-loving trip to the dog park for Asa (yay 38 below celcius with the wind). Second - I'm glad my flat collar + prong approach seems to have merit with you. It was something I came up with that just...seemed to make sense, heh. I'll let you all know how it keeps going.
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Jan 30, 2011 16:45
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a life less posted:Finally, I personally have never had success with teaching loose leash walking with corrections. This is another thing I forgot to make a point of. Anecdotal, I know, but I know a lot of dogs who were leash trained using solely corrections and it never actually lasted.
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Jan 30, 2011 17:58
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I have a ~question~ This came up in another thread Captain Foxy posted:Also seconding get him on a good food. Spitz benefit from fish-based diets in particular; try Orijen 6 Fish or Fromm's Salmon Recipe. Is this from several spitz breeds having origins in asian countries near the ocean? (and thus were given the same food that the people ate) I've heard a few theories about this but didn't know exactly what to think of it. It makes sense in theory anyway. Forgive me if the answer is buried somewhere in the massive OP, I may have missed it. 
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Jan 30, 2011 23:16
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Mark me up as curious about this as well.
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Jan 30, 2011 23:17
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Kerfuffle posted:I have a ~question~ Honestly, I've heard the same things, though for those reasons, and I have no idea how based in fact they are. v  v I've just never really bothered to try and research this, I guess, and I'm not really sure where to start looking, but I do say that I kind of like that idea. I do have a lot of people who feed fish-based diets to their spitz (mostly Shibas, since that's what I'm most active and familiar with) because they wanted to "keep it regional." I've also seen (also anecdotal) that a lot of spitz tend to be sensitive to the red dyes in red meat foods or to the red meats themselves, and a lot of Shibas at least seem to have a running theme of a poultry allergy. So, for me, at least, it makes sense that Koji is on a (mostly) strictly fish-based diet. He does pretty well on the lamb and doesn't seem to have problems with duck that he does with turkey or the dreaded chicken, but he just really really likes the fish the best, so that's what we go with. But a friend of mine that rescues in SoCal is convinced that the best diet for a Sheeb is one based on fish, and that's what she always starts with, especially at any sign of allergic reaction. I like what it does for Koji's coat and it doesn't give him raging farts. His breath does smell like a Port O' Call, though.  I don't think they're going to fall apart or not do as well on another diet. There was someone ITT whose dog seems to hate fish, and that's cool, it'll just vary from dog to dog. I have heard from Dr. Harvey, though, that it is apparently important to change up and rotate proteins for your dog, though. So if they've been eating fish for a while, it's a good idea to change to another type of meat for a term. Dr. Harvey said that every protein source has different amino acids, so it’s best to switch the proteins that you use. Do I? Not really. Koji loves his fish. But I do give him duck treats, bully sticks, and lamb chewies, so I feel like it all evens out in the end, really.
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Jan 30, 2011 23:35
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^^ I'm with pfox. Didn't mean for this to be so interesting since I don't have much to back it up besides personal anecdotes, but oh well! My breeder mentioned it when I first got Keeper, and a few other breeders have mentioned it since, but I haven't seen any research done on it aside from crazy pom lady spiel about 'Northern settlers only fed their dogs fish so it is their natural diet'. My vet has made comments about how nice it appears to have made his coat (although his breath is like OCEAN OF DEATH) and said basically the same thing as my breeder; fish is good for Spitz, you're doing the right thing blahblah etc. The only thing is its quite high in fat, so you gotta watch your portions; he isn't too chubby, so that's good. I guess it makes sense to me on a very basic level, and that level is this: fish oil = good for coats Spitz = double-coated fish-based food = good for Spitz coats I haven't seen any evidence to show that all Spitz would languish on a chicken or beef based diet, but allergies are prone to the breed/type, and Keeper's allergic to both. Of course he also gets all kinds of other meaty goodies as well, but I tend to stick to fish and stuff like lamb/rabbit/venison/etc. Captain Foxy fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Jan 30, 2011 |
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Jan 30, 2011 23:49
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That makes sense. I'm always surprised that between Kaidan and Eris, Eris ended up being the one with all of the terrible food allergies (all poultry, can't have much beef). Kaidan kind of lucked out in that aspect because we want to feed them the same food to keep things simple so fish based is the way we go.
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Jan 31, 2011 00:32
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Captain Foxy posted:(although his breath is like OCEAN OF DEATH) OMG I'm really glad I'm not the only one. I can't compare to my friends' dogs since they don't seem to have the same problem, but JESUS, Koji smells like someone didn't clean out the seafood aisle when he burps in your face. And he will. Especially right after a meal. Thanks, dog. I'm also glad it's not just the Shiba community. I actually feel better it's being passed around with Poms and other spitz doggles.
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Jan 31, 2011 01:24
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Elsa just drops stinky farts from time to time. She's a shiba with OK breath as far as I'm concerned.
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Jan 31, 2011 01:44
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I've heard it's the protein that makes the difference in the food, specifically speaking with huskies, though. Since they're bred for such high endurance and a high metabolism, red meats can be too heavy or harsh on their stomachs when they're used to eating light while working. Of course this varies by dog, but I've seen it a general rule to cut out the red meat first when you husky is having stomach issues, and a lot of the time that alone works. That said, we feed Bud a mostly white meat diet with supplements of red meat to balance out his protein sources a bit. Like everything, it depends on individuals. Edit: Reading back at the last few posts, I just wanted to give my take on all this training stuff. I know I've said this before, and I know I'm in the minority, but I just don't understand why it sounds like people are terrified of correcting their dog. A correction doesn't have to mean, "You did wrong, so here's a bit of pain so you won't do it again." A correction can be as simple as a slight tug on a leash or a tap on the dog's side just to get their attention. It's not meant as a "dominance" thing, it's breaking your dog's focus and getting them back on task. I refuse to believe that a tap on the shoulder is going to scar my dog for life. There's a difference between, "You didn't sit, now I need to pop you collar," and "Hey you, over here, remember?" Of course if you're using something like a training collar (in this case a pinch) to get that attention, you're going to need to phase it out once your dog learns to focus better, but I guess I just don't understand the mentality that it's a faux pas to use corrections even in a mild manner like this. v v
WolfensteinBag fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Jan 31, 2011 |
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Jan 31, 2011 02:11
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Thought there would be the greatest number of sled-breed folks here. {Nasty stuff ahead} I just heard the most nauseating report of a massacre (no other word) of 100 commercial/tourist sled dogs in Whistler, British Columbia. Apparently, last April, when tourism had slowed down after the Olympics, a local outfit found itself 100 dogs in excess (of 300 at the time.) When half-assed efforts at adopting out the dogs failed (no poo poo!) a staffer found himself executing the dogs--his words, in fact. Why is this news now? Because according to the CBC, the SPCA only found out about it after the guy's workers comp claim was approved. For PTSD. From the fact that he took a shotgun and a knife to 100 scared dogs, IN FRONT OF THEIR PACKMATES, and botched the job to the extent that there were dogs running around with their faces half-blown off, he took to slitting their throats, and that several of the dogs crawled out of the mass grave he had dug. After being thrown in, taken for dead. The SPCA rep I heard said that she considered it to be criminal-code level cruelty, and that they would be pressing charges. ( It is the SPCA which handles cruelty investigations in BC.) Anyone have any more info? A caller-in from a rescue (her words) said that the man should have called her, as "any dog can be rehabilitated." The SPCA rep as well as said that they would have to have been euthed. Thoughts?
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Jan 31, 2011 23:07
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Holy gently caress. I hadn't heard about that but that is disgusting and depressing 
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Jan 31, 2011 23:10
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Well, you know how it is. It's like when you go to the bank to deposit your paycheck and then all of a sudden you find yourself running out with 100 grand in a bag after shooting the teller in the face. Whooops! Seriously though, that story is so hosed up I'm having a hard time feeling anything right now. PTSD, whatever... If that person isn't already a serial killer it's only a matter of time before they end up with a freezer full of bodies.  I don't advise reading the story. EDIT: I should re-emphasize, do NOT read the story if you don't want to hear very explict details of the event. SmuglyDismissed fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Jan 31, 2011 |
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Jan 31, 2011 23:40
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SmuglyDismissed posted:
For those of you not from the area, Intrawest is THE developer/manager/big cojones of Whistler and other resorts. You can bet your rear end that the owner of the sled dog parent company, the "Scion of Intrawest", will have his nose kept clean, because Whistler can't afford it any other way. There won't be a paper trail, and it will just be the blood-covered dog killer who is charged--no systemic investigation of sled tours and their management, etc. Sigh. It's hard to fathom all those dogs having died horribly, and, I'm betting, in vain.
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Feb 1, 2011 00:01
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...Holy poo poo that is depressing.
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Feb 1, 2011 00:44
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Sock Weasel posted:...Holy poo poo that is depressing. I don't know if you read the story (sorry if you didn't), but this is an unbelievable understatement. Depressing is that probably a majority of dogs don't get their emotional/physical needs met or truly find a happy/loving existence. Hell, depressing is that 12-15000 animals get euthanized at just one of the local kill shelters each year. This is utter horror.
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Feb 1, 2011 01:37
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That....was the worst thing I have ever read, oh my god.
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Feb 1, 2011 05:33
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I just read that. Holy poo poo. Words can't even describe.
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Feb 1, 2011 05:35
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I warned you not to read it.. We can only hope that the PSTD workman's comp application process will end up revealing some incriminating evidence that will reach people responsible beyond the perpetrator. SmuglyDismissed fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Feb 1, 2011 |
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Feb 1, 2011 06:07
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SmuglyDismissed posted:I warned you not to read it.. I think the best that will emerge is evidence of a cover-up. They've had a very long time to make stuff disappear. Commercial ventures involving animals almost always end up harming the animals in some way, IMHO. Oh holy hell, those poor dogs.
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Feb 1, 2011 06:42
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That is the worst thing ever. Gonna go cuddle Moxie and tell her she can be anything she wants to be when she grows up, except a sled dog. Those poor dogs I hate those people so much.
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Feb 1, 2011 14:36
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Cassiope posted:That is the worst thing ever. Gonna go cuddle Moxie and tell her she can be anything she wants to be when she grows up, except a sled dog. Absolutely this. After reading that, I hugged Roxy tight and cried into her fur.
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Feb 1, 2011 16:14
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Ugh. The GBS thread about this is going pretty much as expected. I just want a list of names of all those involved so that I can make sure not a loving penny goes their way (I went on an Outdoor Adventures-sponsored trip last year).
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Feb 1, 2011 17:31
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... In an attempt to bring some happy to this thread, Hrafn took a visit to see his mum and dad again today. Raf and dad Fergus. Brick camo   (mum Kaya)   "How do I get down? "Thankfully they get along great and all had a blast! The last time they spent a proper day together (aside from walks) was way back when Raf was 15 weeks old.
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Feb 7, 2011 18:57
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Those dogs are seriously loving awesome. And I am seriously jealous. Fo sereez. Hahah, such a gorgeous monster. Amazing pictures as well! We need more...in case they all...ummmm...explode. Yes. Explode.
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Feb 7, 2011 21:16
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But... he's too old for EPS now, right? 
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Feb 7, 2011 21:27
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Hrafn is permanently at risk of EPS. I am sorry to inform you of this.
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Feb 7, 2011 22:41
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Hrafn has this great, regal face... right up until the moment when something confuses him in the slightest, and then he's instant megaderp.
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Feb 8, 2011 00:37
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We've been looking for a new boarding place in the area just for day care for Eris and Kaidan and we found a place nearby that does temperament tests and seems to have a nice facility. I was nervous about Kaidan's test for reasons I've gone into before and because it's worse in smaller groups, in large groups he tends to just not care and go wander around on his own. I was at work so I wasn't there but apparently it's really awesome. Eris did amazingly, and Kaidan did decent. They took each dog separately and they took them into a room why a shy dog who didn't care about other dogs, then the same thing with an outgoing dog who liked other dogs, then let them down in the yard. Apparently Kaidan did his normal walk up to their face and stare at them during the 1 on 1's but just ran/wandered around the yard on his own when let out. The head trainer said she wants to work with him personally and on days we bring him in she'll kennel him a little with a peanut butter kong and introduce him slowly to new dogs since we told them that we really want them to get some socialization. They also employ solely positive reinforcement techniques. I'm really excited about this because our resources for getting them socialized have been severely limited since we stopped going to dog parks. I mentioned this on IRC but I finally booked Kaidan with a (supposedly) really great orthopedic specialist nearby for next Friday. A little nervous, but it should be good. I've been getting worried since his hips seem to be doing a little worse overall lately.
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Feb 11, 2011 03:50
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