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Thanks for that link. Most of the leash issues we have with our dogs tend to be due to arousal as opposed to reactivity so I'm going to read this over.
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Feb 2, 2011 02:27
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I hope no one minds another installment of Major's progress dealing with severe travel anxiety. We're at 1 month since his visit with the behaviorist and he's moving along at a good pace. We still haven't moved out of the garage but its been weeks since he's shown stress signals after rides and he barely whines at all as long as he has something to do. We are up to 15 minutes with the engine on and the music playing and in the next week or two we're going to go up and down the driveway. Exciting! I think giving him something to do other than just lick or chew has really helped. I've trained him to push one of those "easy buttons" from Staples to get me to trigger the MannersMinder for some treats. I think having some control over his environment makes the whole travel thing a lot less anxiety provoking. In the house his anxiety and pacing has gotten so much better! Part of it is that he is finally just pooping whenever he needs to go instead of holding it until the planets align properly. Teaching him to go on command helped a lot but he also is just less anxious about the world in general. Having a specific relaxation spot and practicing relaxation every once in a while has helped him quite a bit too. Right now I took his DAP collar off and I'm seeing how much that has contributed. He needed a bath anyway. The MannersMinder also helped a ton and is an amazing tool and I love it. I live by myself and a lot of training games involve two people which I just don't have. With the MM I have another set of hands for recall games and to reward him for not worrying when I leave the room or I can treat him in his crate in the car. After a week of using it he sticks to his mat like glue. I forgot to release him when I called him to me once and he wiggled and waggled but didn't budge until I said "OK" and he exploded over to me for his treat. He goes to his mat when I'm cooking or eating or when he just feels the need to relax, even if the MM isn't set up there. There are definitely issues we are going to have to work through once we can finally go places like classes but I feel like we are slowly but surely getting there. 15 minutes sitting in a car and pooping like a normal dog doesn't seem like much but a month ago any time in the car was spend screaming and howling and he would spend up to 4 hours a day pacing because he needed to go but wouldn't.
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Feb 2, 2011 02:40
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smokmnky posted:I have a Houdini Dog with SA. Honestly from your description you've done your homework and are doing the right things. It just looks like you jumped on your successes too soon and pushed Gus beyond his comfort zone that you had built up. For a dog with SA there is a huge difference in going from 10-15 minutes by yourself to 3 hours. It is going to be a slow process and it is something you will have to desensitize him to over the course of several months. I would suggest you record Gus in his crate when you are gone with either a webcam or video camera so that you can see how he is behaving in the crate when you are gone and at what point he starts to get anxious. Hopefully you will see that he is comfortable for the entirety of the 10 or so minutes and you can use that as the starting point for slowly increasing the amount of time alone he is comfortable with. If you are not so lucky Gus will be like my dog Freya where the amount of time she is not anxious alone is measured in seconds rather than minutes. Supposedly if you can get the dog to be comfortable for a half hour you are home free but I can't vouch for the truth in that since we are no where near that with Freya. Dealing with SA is really difficult when both people are working and you have no choice but to leave him alone for long periods of time. If you can find a daycare or dogsitter for a decent price its worth considering both for the peace of mind and also to avoid pushing the dog to be alone too long too quickly. I would also continue to work on making Gus think the his crate is the best place ever where awesome things happen. The last thing you want is for him to develop a negative association with it like Freya did with her first crate. Sometime later I'll get around to typing up a post about Freya and the trials and tribulations we've had with her SA but I'm too tired to do it right now. Harry Lime fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Feb 2, 2011 |
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Feb 2, 2011 03:39
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A dumb thing that I was doing wrong for the past few days of noob clicker training: Darla is a little teeny tiny 9 pound dog, and I've been giving her these treats: They are about a cubic centimeter in volume and have a pretty great strong stink to them, and worked pretty well as a motivator. And then I watched this short vid on what kinds of treats Kikopup trains with: http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup#p/u/43/YJY8Hee7ewc For toy dogs, she recommends a treat the size of a pinhead. That is about 1/1000th the volume (yes, one one-thousandth) of the commercial treats I started with. I've switched over to very tiny cut-up pieces of leftover meats like pork chop and chicken and y'know, she works just as hard for these (harder actually because she isn't bloated after eating 10 of them). A small FYI for other noobs like me, I don't see this kind of thing really noted anywhere else (maybe I'm just a lot dumber than most other people about simple things like feeding huge chunks of food to tiny dogs).
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Feb 2, 2011 04:55
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smokmnky posted:escaping daschund If using carbiners or zip ties does not work to keep the door closed, you may want to consider a different kind of crate. An airline style plastic crate might be harder for him to break out of. What I have for Moxie (can't remember who here suggested it in the first place) is a kennel-aire crate. The wires are in a mesh pattern and the door has a screw shut latch. I'm pretty sure it could contain houndini. Otherwise I'd just keep doing what you're doing. Play crate games, constantly reward for being in the crate, and provide some non-destructible chew toys and cuddle toys in there for when you leave. I always leave Moxie with her kong stuffed with peanut butter and various goodies as well as her toy rabbit which she is obsessed with.
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Feb 2, 2011 05:18
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Flesh Forge posted:For toy dogs, she recommends a treat the size of a pinhead. That is about 1/1000th the volume (yes, one one-thousandth) of the commercial treats I started with. I've switched over to very tiny cut-up pieces of leftover meats like pork chop and chicken and y'know, she works just as hard for these (harder actually because she isn't bloated after eating 10 of them). A small FYI for other noobs like me, I don't see this kind of thing really noted anywhere else (maybe I'm just a lot dumber than most other people about simple things like feeding huge chunks of food to tiny dogs). (Rho is actively weighing his options all the time, especially with recalls. He's a smart little dog.) Also, a small Pi update. It turns out I can praise him out of difficult situations. Yesterday I was out with both dogs at the same time (I know...) and Rho noticed an approaching dog. I praised him for keeping quiet, which let Pi know something's up. Pi scanned his surroundings, spotted the approaching dog and came to me to offer eye contact like a good dog  I think I will keep working with Look At That type of stuff in spite of Pi's handicap. His increased reactivity seems to be due to him not noticing stimuli until they're close enough for him to be surprised/alarmed.
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Feb 2, 2011 12:46
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Rixatrix posted:I think I will keep working with Look At That type of stuff in spite of Pi's handicap. His increased reactivity seems to be due to him not noticing stimuli until they're close enough for him to be surprised/alarmed. I have a 13 year old Shnauzer who is sadly losing a lot of her vision, not as bad as your guy but that sounds like a really good exercise for her. She's never been really trained beyond her name and basic housebreaking (which she never really fully mastered) and I'm going to try that with a different conditioning sound, the whole category of sharp pop noises scares the poo poo out of her.
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Feb 2, 2011 12:57
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Flesh Forge posted:A dumb thing that I was doing wrong for the past few days of noob clicker training: Darla is a little teeny tiny 9 pound dog, and I've been giving her these treats: Might check out Charlee Bears. They're a little large for toy dogs using Kikopups' advice, but they have a fair bit of air in the shell, so their outside volume is not their actual volume. They're freeze dried liver treats in a cracker shell. They're about the size of a dime, but they're only like 3 calories each, so they're fantastic for steady treat training. http://www.amazon.com/All-Natural-Dog-Treats-Resealable/dp/B0002XAFTG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1296657317&sr=8-1
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Feb 2, 2011 15:35
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my dog boyfriend!!! posted:Is it ever too late to train a dog with some mild behavioral issues? My sister and her husband got a puppy through an acquaintances-of-acquaintances sort of network after a coworker's neighbor found out her "I could've sworn she was fixed!" dog was due with puppies. The mother basically rejected the litter from the start, so the puppies were separated from their mom pretty early. I think you've already got the answers you're looking for, but I wanted to chime in. The beauty of a clicker is that the sound is the same no matter who is using it -- it doesn't differ from person to person like our voices do. The only difference I predict is that some people may be better with their timing at first. It's tough to get the timing right, especially when you're starting out. Most people click too late and reduce its effectiveness. Regarding "old dog new tricks?", on another dog forum I visit there's a poster there who trains dogs with one of the best reactive dog trainers in the country. She has a dog who came to her when he was 7 years old with an already-established pattern of biting. On top of that, all warning signs like growling and snapping had been punished out of him, so he seemingly attacked without warning. In 99% of situations, this dog would have been put down. But she adopted him, worked with him extensively and made amazing (but slow) progress. Now he's listed as one of the top Rally dogs in the country. With some dedication and some professional support you can make hugely successful improvements in just about any dog, regardless of age. Instant Jellyfish posted:I hope no one minds another installment of Major's progress dealing with severe travel anxiety. That's sounding like it's coming along really nicely. I didn't realize that you didn't have anyone else with whom you could work, so it makes the addition of the Manners Minder even more important. I smiled with the mental image of Major happily chilling out on his rug, watching the MM out of the corner of his eye. It really goes to show you that some aspects of dog behaviour are almost mathematical in their simplicity. Reward enough for being here, and it becomes an intrinsically enjoyable place to be even when rewards are removed. I wish I could meet that dog one day. Rixatrix posted:This is an excellent observation and might be something that's good to include in the OP if it isn't there already. For larger dogs I've heard that you should use treats about the size of a pea. However I find that for some "expensive" behaviors you need to have something better - if your dog performs a difficult recall in a distracting environment, give ten small treats instead of one, or a whole pig's ear or whatever. I'll definitely add it to the OP -- probably in the Tools//Treats section, but I may make mention of the sizes elsewhere too. I was working at the dog training school on Monday, and I was watching people feed their ~Cavachons~ whole Zuks minis, and their ~Chiweenies~ biscuits the size of their head. Then they remark how quickly they're going through treats and can't figure out why they're having trouble motivating their very very very full dog. I like to break my Zuks in half for Cohen (35lbs) so whole bits are definitely too large for a toy dog. [Note: the school is in a posh part of town, so you get some tiny irritating designer breeds, but you also get some awesome ones like Bloodhounds, Aussies , Dogue de Bordeaux, and more.]Dogs don't really care how much of something they're getting. It's more the act of being given something awesome that I think is the highlight of the rewarding process. I keep my treats tiny (the kibble I use is the largest reward I provide) and jackpot with 3, 5, 10 for exceptional work. I've been debating working on an emergency recall with a pigs ear reward, but I've just not gotten around to doing it. Regarding Pi and the Look At That game, that's great news. I'm not quite sure how I taught Cohen the game (I think it just arose naturally) but now I can say "look" and she'll swivel her head around to the most distracting thing in her environment (normally another dog, but sometimes a shelf full of dog treats). She tends to react out of excitement, so it's worked wonders at keeping her attention in distracting areas. I really, really like this behaviour. Keep it up!
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Feb 2, 2011 16:06
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MrFurious posted:Might check out Charlee Bears. Thanks, I'll look into those. I need something that can be tossed and then found so those are probably much better than tiny bits of soft meat. Are they stinky? I think I've reached a pretty cool milestone this morning of day 5 of clicker training Darla: When I am teaching her, she's very motivated by treats I have in my hand (the tiny bits of leftover meat) but when I accidentally drop a piece she usually will ignore it and stay focused on me. Obviously she likes the food, but she seems to be much more rewarded by me GIVING it to her than just the eating it part. I've done some really basic obedience training with food in the past but I've never had a dog stay so focused on me like this before where they'll ignore loose food like that, it feels awesome. When we're done with a training session she'll go back and pick up all the little bits she missed earlier, so she does seem to be aware of them, just the stuff in my hand is much more interesting.
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Feb 2, 2011 16:12
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a life less posted:The beauty of a clicker is that the sound is the same no matter who is using it -- it doesn't differ from person to person like our voices do. quote:Regarding "old dog new tricks?", ... With some dedication and some professional support you can make hugely successful improvements in just about any dog, regardless of age. That's really reassuring, my poor old schnauzer (Romy) isn't nearly that bad off - she's just a bit old and occasionally crabby - so hopefully I can help her. The vet counter-conditioning the "blow in the face fiend" Jack Russell Terrier makes me hopeful, although she's really slow to take food when you hand it to her so I can't do it quite like that. I found an article on this particular problem on 4pawsu that has numerous other articles linked in it: http://www.4pawsu.com/fireworks.htm
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Feb 2, 2011 16:26
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Regarding treat size, I'll give Moxie (40 lbs) the teenist little bit of treats. Usually I break up zuke's mini sized treats into like four for more pieces. Basically whatever bit I can break off with my fingernail is what she gets. She'll work for treats way smaller than you would think. I can't imagine how quickly we would go through treats if I even just gave her small whole ones all the time.
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Feb 2, 2011 16:34
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Flesh Forge posted:Thanks, I'll look into those. I need something that can be tossed and then found so those are probably much better than tiny bits of soft meat. Are they stinky? Not at all. They have a distinct odor, but it's not even remotely unpleasant. They just smell like a dried food product, similar to dog food.
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Feb 2, 2011 16:55
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We are having an extremely difficult time house-training our pup. He is about 11 weeks old now, and we have had him for two weeks. He has about 4-5 accidents a day, and it's not getting better. These are not excited or submissive accidents. It's just random pissing/crapping (crapping accidents are relatively rare as you can catch him in time, but he gives no signals that he's going to piss). Like, for instance, this morning, we woke up, took him out, he pissed/poo poo, we brought him back in, fed him, and he pissed about five minutes later. He never pisses in the same spot, and usually he does it right in front of us. It's done so quick that is basically impossible to startle or stop him in the act. It can be as little as 20-30 minutes after he had pissed outside, so he doesn't really have to go. He just doesn't get that you are supposed to piss outside, not inside, and I'm not sure how to make him realize that.
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Feb 2, 2011 17:04
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gvibes posted:We are having an extremely difficult time house-training our pup. He is about 11 weeks old now, and we have had him for two weeks. He has about 4-5 accidents a day, and it's not getting better. There are lots of posts on house training in this thread and the puppy thread. What breed is the dog? How old is it? What is your regiment currently for trying to housetrain? How are you reacting when the dog has an accident? Apartment? House? Are you crate training? This is all relevant.
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Feb 2, 2011 17:09
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MrFurious posted:There are lots of posts on house training in this thread and the puppy thread. What breed is the dog? How old is it? What is your regiment currently for trying to housetrain? How are you reacting when the dog has an accident? Apartment? House? Are you crate training? This is all relevant.
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Feb 2, 2011 17:11
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11 weeks old is an infant. I doubt it's possible to startle a puppy that young into stopping his pee/poo (I don't know if it's possible at all, I've certainly never been able to do that with any dog). What has always worked pretty well for me is just bring the dog out immediately even if they're still going (much easier to wash your clothes than it is to clean the carpet so if he can't stop then just keep going and hurry out) and if there's even a little bit of pee/poo that is dropped outside, PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE (and if you're clicker training, click/treat). Clean up the mess as quick as you can and as thoroughly as you can. A dog door has always been immensely helpful for me, if you have a secure yard.
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Feb 2, 2011 17:12
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a life less posted:That's sounding like it's coming along really nicely. I didn't realize that you didn't have anyone else with whom you could work, so it makes the addition of the Manners Minder even more important. I smiled with the mental image of Major happily chilling out on his rug, watching the MM out of the corner of his eye. Not having anyone to train with made a lot of the work I needed to do with him really challenging. Reaching back to treat while driving is kind of dangerous and once he got to the point where he needed to be covered it just became impossible. For treats I mostly use his daily meals but if I use treats they are never bigger than my pinky fingernail even though he's a 75 lb dog. He's also super motivated by smelly/birdy things so his emergency recall was taught with a dried pigeon wing I found on the beach and I just ordered him a tug wrapped in real rabbit fur to use a reward. We're working on LAT too because Major has decided certain dogs are Bad Dogs. The Control Unleashed book really doesn't do that great of a job of explaining how to teach it and I've yet to see a good video about it. We're working on just looking at a neutral object now and not trying to touch it. He really likes touching things.
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Feb 2, 2011 17:31
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Instant Jellyfish posted:The Control Unleashed book really doesn't do that great of a job of explaining how to teach it and I've yet to see a good video about it. We're working on just looking at a neutral object now and not trying to touch it. He really likes touching things. I'm not quite sure on how to generalize the behavior though, or how to incrementally make it more difficult. It seems to me that going from neutral object to a live dog (no matter how far away) is a huge leap.
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Feb 2, 2011 18:06
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Rixatrix posted:Do you have the CU DVD? On the seminar DVD they taught it with a stuffed animal. Leslie had it behind her back, then showed it to the dog and C&T for looking at it, then hiding it again behind her back before the dog was done with the treat. She was standing, so I guess that'll make it easier for the dog not to touch it. I don't have the dvd, just the book. I've been using a piece of paper with an x on it in a similar way. I put him on his mat so he knows he shouldn't be moving off to touch things. The book says if you use an X (she suggested tape on a wall) that then you can put a tape X on other things to generalize but I don't know of any dogs that would put up with me taping Xs to them. Maybe start with a neutral dog and have them look at that? You have two so maybe you can start getting them to look at each other then build up to different dogs?
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Feb 2, 2011 18:11
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Instant Jellyfish posted:I don't have the dvd, just the book. I've been using a piece of paper with an x on it in a similar way. I put him on his mat so he knows he shouldn't be moving off to touch things. The book says if you use an X (she suggested tape on a wall) that then you can put a tape X on other things to generalize but I don't know of any dogs that would put up with me taping Xs to them. Maybe start with a neutral dog and have them look at that? You have two so maybe you can start getting them to look at each other then build up to different dogs? I would probably build a LAT through capturing. If something catches his eye that won't send him over threshold I would click it, which should orient him back to you for a treat. Maybe at that point give a release word and see if he orients back to the distraction. If so, that's great. If not, it'll just take a bit longer to have him clue in on the game. Capturing can be slow, but I think that's how I ended up doing it successfully.
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Feb 2, 2011 18:18
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Harry Lime posted:reassurances I'm doing something right Thanks for the info, I'll continue to work on the crate games stuff. I ended up pulling everything but his Kong out of the crate and we put a towel down on the floor to keep from scratching and yesterday after lunch to evening when I came home to let him out he hadn't moved or made any attempts to get the towel. I'm hoping his Kong was distracting enough. He was extremely whiny and thirsty when I let him out though. Cassiope posted:If using carbiners or zip ties does not work to keep the door closed, you may want to consider a different kind of crate. An airline style plastic crate might be harder for him to break out of. What I have for Moxie (can't remember who here suggested it in the first place) is a kennel-aire crate. The wires are in a mesh pattern and the door has a screw shut latch. I'm pretty sure it could contain houndini. The carabiner ended up working pretty well. When I got home last night he had again popped open the latch of the door but the latch at the bottom of the crate and the carabiner held and he was still in there. If it holds up the rest of the week then I think I should be ok. So I have another question, should I put his bed and blanket back into the crate in an attempt to make him like it during the times we are home? Right now since he's been stuck in the crate and doesn't have the blanket or bed he's been jumping straight to the couch and the back of the sofa (normally something we've allowed) whereas before when I first got the crate and put his bed in he took to it fairly quickly. I'm just worried about "ruining" the crate and turning it into something that he only see's as "The place he goes when his family leaves".
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Feb 2, 2011 18:56
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Definitely avoid only putting him in the crate when you leave. If he doesn't tear up blankets and bedding while you're there I don't see a problem with putting them in there as long as you can supervise. I tried in vain to find something Moxie could not destroy in her crate that would be soft enough to lay on with no luck. Came across a couple of things though you might want to give a try if you're looking for something you can always have in the crate. Primo Pads: http://primopads.com/ Dura-Beds: http://www.cushionguy.com/Titan_Bed_System.html Like I said I haven't tried either product out, if you do I'd like to hear a review!
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Feb 2, 2011 19:19
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You folks dealing with SA might be interested in this book Patricia McConnell mentioned in her blog this week, Don't Leave Me! (what is it with dog books and exclamation points?). Its supposed to be really thorough about going through all kinds of treatment options like DAP and anxiety wraps but she says it should emphasize CCing things like picking up your keys or putting on your shoes more. I know I'm always looking for new reading material so I thought some of you might want to look into it.
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Feb 2, 2011 19:26
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Instant Jellyfish posted:You folks dealing with SA might be interested in this book Patricia McConnell mentioned in her blog this week, Don't Leave Me! (what is it with dog books and exclamation points?). Its supposed to be really thorough about going through all kinds of treatment options like DAP and anxiety wraps but she says it should emphasize CCing things like picking up your keys or putting on your shoes more. I know I'm always looking for new reading material so I thought some of you might want to look into it. Actually a coworker who I have been talking about this with just dropped this book off for me to check out this morning. I read the first 2 chapters and so far it seems to point to a lot of other material I've read online as well. It starts off with the whole "tape your dog while you're gone" idea that I'm going to try tomorrow.
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Feb 2, 2011 20:06
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Useful article on living with dogs that have herding behavior built into them: http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=99&A=1959&S=1
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Feb 2, 2011 20:36
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Kiri koli posted:She has a Watch command that I need to work on more, but I think it bores her. Are there any fun focus games that people know of? If I understand what you mean by focus (attention?) I've been doing this "touch" trick in rapid succession for two days now and Darla really likes it, she'll go about 7-10 steps of it in a row between treats and while it holds her interest, it doesn't get her too aroused/excited, just very attentive. It also seems to be helping with her ongoing playbiting problem (which I caused in the first place).
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Feb 2, 2011 22:42
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smokmnky posted:He was extremely whiny and thirsty when I let him out though. If he is very thirsty when you get back it means either he is barking constantly when you are gone or drooling excessively due to nerves. Or if he is like Freya, both. If the crate is on a hardwood floor your worry will not be scratches but water damage. Last night we noticed moisture under Freya's brick bed(an idea shamelessly stolen from Cassiope) in her crate moved it to investigate. What we found was that her drool had seeped through the cracks of the concrete tile and collected under the crate. We now have a patch of heavily water damaged floor that will cost us a fair bit when we stop renting in our current apartment.
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Feb 2, 2011 23:27
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Flesh Forge posted:If I understand what you mean by focus (attention?) I've been doing this "touch" trick in rapid succession for two days now and Darla really likes it, she'll go about 7-10 steps of it in a row between treats and while it holds her interest, it doesn't get her too aroused/excited, just very attentive. It also seems to be helping with her ongoing playbiting problem (which I caused in the first place). Basically I want to be able to get and hold her attention in chaotic situations. She's really curious and really intent on watching things. Her focus on things often escalates into getting upset and then barking/growling. Pulling her focus back before it escalates would really help us change her behavior. On a more basic level though I just noticed that whereas other people's dogs will stare at them for directions/treats during things like rally, my dog utterly ignores me and it kind of hurt my feelings.  I was hoping for a really fun game to play that would help it move along, but really I just need to work on it more in a variety of situations.
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Feb 3, 2011 01:21
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I need some help. My terrier/"something" pup Darla, although extremely smart when in training sessions, has developed what seems to be some pretty strong herding behavior with our other dog, a 13 year old miniature schnauzer (Romy) who is not well socialized herself and is reacting really poorly. Darla has been showing some of this behavior (heel nipping when walking behind a person) really since we took her in but I didn't recognize it because I've never lived with a herding dog before, but after some of the reading I've been doing it seems pretty obvious that's what it is: - Fairly constant heel nipping when walking behind a person; mistakenly I had thought this was the same set of behavior as her playbiting, which I've almost cured her of. The playbites can sometimes be fairly hard, but the heel nipping is just her bumping her mouth against your foot or the tiniest of nips with no pressure. - She also does the heel nipping to our schnauzer, and when I watch this happening I always interrupt it as quickly as possible, but I can see from Darla's posture that she's just excited, not being aggressive (quick movements, limbs are bent, the front of her body is in the "play bow" pose, her teeth aren't bared, tail is wagging etc). - When Romy doesn't respond, because it's pissing her off, Darla starts barking at Romy. These barks aren't like her "I'm startled" or "Stranger!" barks, they're pretty controlled and measured (if that makes any sense). If I haven't identified this behavior correctly, please tell me what else it might be, but it seems to fit the bill. The problem is that the schnauzer keeps getting more pissed, and she freezes, which makes Darla frustrated because she seems to really want Romy to just MOVE SOMEWHERE, so she barks more and nips more - which makes Romy angrier, and it escalates until she lunges at the pup pretty aggressively and it goes downhill from there. This wasn't a big deal at first because I was exercising them a lot together, but the neighbors behind us have an enormous male pit bull. The pit bull is a really nice dog and not aggressive, but the drat schnauzer will lunge at him aggressively too (chainlink fence), and although he didn't react badly at first, after a few times like this he almost came over the fence to get at her. She also can't really keep up physically due to her age. I have a pretty hard time getting Darla's attention when she gets on a roll, although I'm working on some calming stuff in general and trying to get her "down" a lot more consistent and immediate. Right now I'm mostly just separating them when this scenario pops up and working on getting Darla to be generally more calm. What can I do to discourage the herding behavior? Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Feb 3, 2011 |
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Feb 3, 2011 01:45
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Kiri koli posted:Basically I want to be able to get and hold her attention in chaotic situations. Yeah this is the same problem I have right now. She's perfectly attentive while we're doing the exercise, but when she goes off on a compulsive barking binge I have a lot of trouble getting her attention away from that. I don't have any real experience with solving that, although I think (hope) this technique will help with enough time and reinforcement.
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Feb 3, 2011 01:48
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I need some major help with my dog. He's a 18-month old beagle mix (Wally) who we rescued about a year ago. Today my wife found a stray Boxer-mix with no collar on in the middle of a blizzard who she brought home. We took her (we named her Roxy) to the vet today and she's not chipped so we've decided to try to keep her. She's been great this first night but the real problem is Wally. He just doesn't like other dogs, especially dogs that are bigger than him which Roxy is. We kept them both on leases and tried to let them sniff butts but as soon as Roxy as much as even moves her head slightly towards Wally he will jump and lunge at Roxy. We separated them with a dog gate and Wally flares his lips and barks very aggressively at Roxy. So far Roxy seems like an amazing dog but if we can't fix how Wally treats Roxy then we'll have to give her away. I hope someone has some good advice for us.
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Feb 3, 2011 05:04
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Turns out there are some pretty intense caveats to herding behavior, I think I understand how Darla ended up as a stray: http://www.bcrescue.org/bcwarning.html Excerpt: quote:Why do so many Border Collies end up in rescue? Not that I think my mutt is a BC but this seems pretty applicable to herding behavior in general, which she does show. I had no idea this was such a challenge to deal with, I bet most other people don't either. edit: expanded the quote ah ... not trying to teach my grandmother to suck eggs or anything, I'm sure this isn't "breaking news" to a lot of experienced dog handlers, but I wouldn't call this common knowledge either. Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Feb 3, 2011 |
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Feb 3, 2011 15:32
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MinorApplicator posted:I need some major help with my dog. He's a 18-month old beagle mix (Wally) who we rescued about a year ago. Today my wife found a stray Boxer-mix with no collar on in the middle of a blizzard who she brought home. We took her (we named her Roxy) to the vet today and she's not chipped so we've decided to try to keep her. She's been great this first night but the real problem is Wally. He just doesn't like other dogs, especially dogs that are bigger than him which Roxy is. We kept them both on leases and tried to let them sniff butts but as soon as Roxy as much as even moves her head slightly towards Wally he will jump and lunge at Roxy. We separated them with a dog gate and Wally flares his lips and barks very aggressively at Roxy. I have no experience with this sort of problem whatsoever, so I am just spitballing here, but this seems like a good opportunity for some pretty classic counter conditioning. What about getting some really high value treats -- something with actual meat would be a good example. You should probably do this in tandem with your wife, so that neither dog gets jealous. Put Roxy on one side of the gate and have your wife stay over there just being calm and hanging out with her. Use the treats as a lure to slowly get Wally closer to the gate, while maintaining focus on you. Make sure that you ONLY treat when she is focused on you and being calm at this stage. The goal is to get Wally next to the gate and in close proximity to Roxy. Whenever he is being calm and not showing any signs of aggression (things like ears flat, mouth tightly closed, stiffening of stance, etc), you treat him with these high value treats. This may take a while, but eventually Wally should associate Roxy with some totally bitchin' treats, and will want to hang out with her. If Wally starts to have a poor reaction, block in front of him to try and break his focus and get him focused on you. Wait for him to calm down, or try to help him calm down, and then treat him again. His "bubble" is going to start off big, but you can condition it into being small. You can find more info about counter conditioning on Dr. Sophia Yin's website (https://www.drsophiayin.com) and here's a video that gets linked frequently as a good example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI13v9JgJu0 Timing is critical. You want to make sure that you are treating and marking when you get the behavior you are looking for. Also, I hope this is a needless question, but Wally is fixed right?
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Feb 3, 2011 15:51
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MrFurious posted:
Wally is fixed. Roxy isn't but we're taking care of that in about 3 weeks. I'll look into that technique and probably try it out tonight. Thanks!
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Feb 3, 2011 16:08
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MinorApplicator posted:I need some major help with my dog. He's a 18-month old beagle mix (Wally) who we rescued about a year ago. Today my wife found a stray Boxer-mix with no collar on in the middle of a blizzard who she brought home. We took her (we named her Roxy) to the vet today and she's not chipped so we've decided to try to keep her. She's been great this first night but the real problem is Wally. He just doesn't like other dogs, especially dogs that are bigger than him which Roxy is. We kept them both on leases and tried to let them sniff butts but as soon as Roxy as much as even moves her head slightly towards Wally he will jump and lunge at Roxy. We separated them with a dog gate and Wally flares his lips and barks very aggressively at Roxy. First off, I would probably make attempts to find that dog a home for at least a week before you claim it as your own. Not everyone chips their pets, and some pets are chipped but they migrate and aren't always picked up by the scanner. Post a found dog notice on Craigslist, put up signs and ask local vet clinics and dog shelters if anyone has reported a missing dog. It would break my heart if my dog somehow got out and someone picked her up, missed her chip, and decided to keep her that day. Anyways, Wally sounds like he's scared of larger dogs, or just dogs in general. He acts out aggressively to preempt the aggression he's sure these larger dogs are going to visit on him, a sort of "Ima hurt you before you hurt me" approach. He has negative emotions tied with the presence of other dogs, so it's now your job to change these negative emotions into positive ones. First off, this is a VERY SLOW process. You don't want to rush it, since it's VERY IMPORTANT as well. I would guess it would take several weeks for you to do it properly. You're going to approach this via counterconditioning (CC). CC isn’t about training anything, it’s about pairing a very low intensity stimulus that evokes fear with a high intensity stimulus that evokes a positive emotion. For example, a dog afraid of strangers would be CC’d by having a visitor stand outside the door (low intensity because they don’t enter the house) and toss pieces of chicken (high intensity). Over time, and lots of repetitions, the dog’s emotional response to the food becomes attached to the visitor as well. Dogs are slightly more difficult to control than visitors, but you want to approach it the same way. Have Roxy's presence act as the on/off switch for Wally's treats. Have her on the other side of the room, far enough away so Wally doesn't immediately react, and start shoving treats into his mouth. When she leaves, the treats stop. You're NOT going to allow these dogs to be in the presence of the other without you being there to countercondition. Keep them in separate areas of the house. Over the days, gradually move the dogs closer and closer together, but again never close enough for Wally to freak out. You're reducing Wally's threshold, and he's understanding that if the other dog is there he gets food, and if the other dog is not there, he gets nothing. Pretty soon the good, food-related emotions will also be associated with the new dog. I went over to my boyfriend's parents house with my dog last week. They have three rear end in a top hat Chihuahuas who hate everything. I just set 'em all up in the kitchen and started passing food to one dog at a time, mine included. I could keep my dog pretty close since they could easily focus on the food with her sitting next to them. I only had a brief period that night to work on their reactivity, and even just with that their behaviour improved considerably. It would reset each time we took a break and re-introduced my dog, which is why you have to set aside several weeks to really really create this emotional association. Flesh Forge posted:I need some help. My terrier/"something" pup Darla, although extremely smart when in training sessions, has developed what seems to be some pretty strong herding behavior with our other dog, a 13 year old miniature schnauzer (Romy) who is not well socialized herself and is reacting really poorly. Your job in this instance is to encourage Darla to ignore your Schnauzer. Your older dog has every right to be ignored, and a puppy's rude energy will grate on just about anyone's nerves. So in this situation I would train what I wanted instead (ie, have a really good recall when your dog is excited) or train a really nice "crate up" where you can encourage your dog to go into a crate (with a stuffed kong or something) when she's getting excited. Eventually you'll be able to preempt her excitement and she'll have less opportunities to practice being "bad". A lot of the "herding" behaviour you're seeing is also just standard dog behaviour. Owning a herder myself, I find the best way to manage it is to manage my dog's level of excitement. Work on a calming cue, try not to rile her up, and start asking for incompatible behaviours if she does act up. A dog can't nip at heels if she's sitting, heeling, etc.
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Feb 3, 2011 16:11
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MrFurious posted:Whenever he is being calm and not showing any signs of aggression (things like ears flat, mouth tightly closed, stiffening of stance, etc), you treat him with these high value treats. Actually, it doesn't matter what Wally is doing as long as he's able to take treats. Ideally you want to keep him under threshold, but classical conditioning does not rely on how a dog is behaving (operant conditioning does). You can keep tossing him treats regardless of whether he's behaving or not. Some people think that if you do this you're "rewarding" bad behaviour, but it doesn't work like this in the dog's head. Classical conditioning is not contingent on a dog's reaction to be fed. Operant conditioning relies on the dog's reaction to be supplied with a reward.
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Feb 3, 2011 16:15
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a life less posted:Actually, it doesn't matter what Wally is doing as long as he's able to take treats. Ideally you want to keep him under threshold, but classical conditioning does not rely on how a dog is behaving (operant conditioning does). You can keep tossing him treats regardless of whether he's behaving or not. Some people think that if you do this you're "rewarding" bad behaviour, but it doesn't work like this in the dog's head. I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification.
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Feb 3, 2011 16:17
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quote:A lot of the "herding" behaviour you're seeing is also just standard dog behaviour. Owning a herder myself, I find the best way to manage it is to manage my dog's level of excitement. Work on a calming cue, try not to rile her up, and start asking for incompatible behaviours if she does act up. A dog can't nip at heels if she's sitting, heeling, etc. Dammit, you spoiled my dream that Darla is a little dwarf border collie cross  Thanks for the advice, I realize I can't expect overnight results and this is going to be a long term process. I've only had her a month and she's a very young dog so yeah I suppose it's mostly that she's just being a normal playful puppy. I've been working on her attention span and calming activities pretty much continuously for the past several days, broken up into ~15 minute training sessions with frequent breaks, along with 2-3 walks on the leash (she really enjoys that and will offer tricks for me when she sees the leash) and some free play and running in the back yard to burn off some of her abundant go-juice. Getting her attention when she's very excited is the main problem, and I guess I understand how to approach that (the "Lowering Arousal" article earlier). Fortunately I work from home and can supervise both dogs 24/7 so I'm not worried the situation will get out of control, and in any situation where I'd absolutely have to leave them alone for a long period I can just keep them separated (actually since Darla is so tiny I can often just take her with me, which I often do). I really doubt I'll try to crate train her because frankly it doesn't really benefit me or her too much, I never travel and there's almost never any occasion where either dog will be left alone for more than about fifteen minutes. quote:First off, this is a VERY SLOW process. You don't want to rush it, since it's VERY IMPORTANT as well. I would guess it would take several weeks for you to do it properly. The OP might want to stress that there should be a big difference in expectations between teaching a new behavior (short span of time) and behavior modification (very slow process). quote:I just set 'em all up in the kitchen and started passing food to one dog at a time, mine included. I could keep my dog pretty close since they could easily focus on the food with her sitting next to them. I only had a brief period that night to work on their reactivity, and even just with that their behaviour improved considerably. It would reset each time we took a break and re-introduced my dog, which is why you have to set aside several weeks to really really create this emotional association. I've been doing this also with Darla and Romy and it has helped Romy relax a lot (most of the time). I was hesitant to give advice about that particular problem because I'm a noob but the "Jack Russell Terrier blowing fiend" video from the OP really impressed me. Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Feb 3, 2011 |
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Feb 3, 2011 17:23
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Harry Lime posted:If he is very thirsty when you get back it means either he is barking constantly when you are gone or drooling excessively due to nerves. Or if he is like Freya, both. If the crate is on a hardwood floor your worry will not be scratches but water damage. Last night we noticed moisture under Freya's brick bed(an idea shamelessly stolen from Cassiope) in her crate moved it to investigate. What we found was that her drool had seeped through the cracks of the concrete tile and collected under the crate. We now have a patch of heavily water damaged floor that will cost us a fair bit when we stop renting in our current apartment. Yeah, this happened to me too. I posted briefly about it but did not think to try to find you and warn you. I've moved her crate into the kitchen since it has linoleum instead of hardwood. Also, after a few months of having brick bed her elbows and chest were getting rubbed raw. I don't know if Freya does this but Moxie will tear up anything soft we put in there. With the move to the kitchen I went ahead and put a new plastic liner just up on top of the bricks and hoped really really hard that she would not chew it. So far (and it's been a few weeks) it seems to have worked. I guess having bricks broke the pattern of behavior with her chewing the liner. Also the new liner has no remnants of the apparently delicious bitter apple spray we put all over the other one.
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Feb 3, 2011 19:18
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