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Chairman Capone posted:I'm positive it won't happen but it would be pretty cool if they cast the same actor in The Stand and The Dark Tower. Which is a real shame 
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Feb 1, 2011 06:00
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But Flagg is supposed to be constantly shifting appearances - using the same actor in both kinda goes against the nature of the character.
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Feb 1, 2011 06:09
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fishmech posted:But Flagg is supposed to be constantly shifting appearances - using the same actor in both kinda goes against the nature of the character. Also true I suppose.
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Feb 1, 2011 06:42
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Ideally the two would swap some notes on a few key shared mannerisms/vocal cadences/postures to create a fundamental link between the two so that viewers of both subconsciously recognize the connection (works better if they'd not both named Flagg, and isn't Flagg in DT named something else for a long while?). That
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Feb 1, 2011 08:45
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mind the walrus posted:isn't Flagg in DT named something else for a long while?). Walter O'dim/Marten Broadcloak/Maerlyn, yeah.
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Feb 1, 2011 09:31
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Come on, movie industry, when are we getting an Eyes of the Dragon movie?
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Feb 1, 2011 10:57
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Ensign_Ricky posted:Walter O'dim/Marten Broadcloak/Maerlyn, yeah. There's an argument to be made that he's also John Farson though it's less clear and fairly disputable
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Feb 1, 2011 13:33
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Fallon posted:There's an argument to be made that he's also John Farson though it's less clear and fairly disputable The comics actually make it pretty clear that he isn't. Although I was convinced he was for the longest time.
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Feb 1, 2011 17:01
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Fallon posted:There's an argument to be made that he's also John Farson though it's less clear and fairly disputable I thought he manipulated John Farson by being his advisor or something.
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Feb 1, 2011 17:11
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I've been listening to Under the Dome on audiobook, and while I really like it (Jim Rennie is possibly the most infuriating villain I've ever read, and the narrator's voice for him is amazing), there's one thing that's sort of bugging me. Bear in mind that I'm not that far into it yet (the army hasn't launched the cruise missile yet): The Meth Lab plot device really seems out of place. I have no trouble buying that Jim Rennie is a monster just based on his interactions with and manipulation of the towns people and his general delusions of grandeur. His embezzlement of town funds would even be enough to make him and outright criminal. But on top of that he's running a meth factory? I don't know, it strikes a little like trying to hard on King's part to make him deplorable from all possible angles, when his personality alone accomplishes that.
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Feb 2, 2011 21:31
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fishmech posted:I thought he manipulated John Farson by being his advisor or something. Yes, this happened. But you also have stuff like: "The real Wizard steps forward. It's Roland's ancient nemesis, Marten Broadcloak, known in some worlds as Randall Flagg, in others as Richard Fannin, in others as John Farson (the Good Man)." From Wizard and Glass. And the foreword to Wolves of the Calla says it outright. But Dark Tower VII implies they're not the same, and the comics just retcon it to always being different people. Maybe King just changed his mind? Or maybe in-universe they were confused for one another, despite being seperate.
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Feb 2, 2011 22:47
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Strange Matter posted:I've been listening to Under the Dome on audiobook, and while I really like it (Jim Rennie is possibly the most infuriating villain I've ever read, and the narrator's voice for him is amazing), there's one thing that's sort of bugging me. Bear in mind that I'm not that far into it yet (the army hasn't launched the cruise missile yet): It'll be clear, but I can't get into it without spoiling you, so 
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Feb 3, 2011 04:57
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Fallon posted:Yes, this happened. But you also have stuff like: I guess you could interpret it to mean that in some other universes he is John Farson, just not necessarily this one. But more likely it's just an inconsistency.
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Feb 3, 2011 05:44
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For someone who really hasn't read the Stand or Dark Tower (and to be honest have no real inclination to) what exactly is it that Flagg has done that makes him such a reviled/iconic/beloved/famous villain? All I've ever turned up looking through Google and Wikipedia is "he's a master manipulator and shapeshifter, and is basically the word 'bastard' personified." What does he actually do that's so bad?
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Feb 3, 2011 06:45
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mind the walrus posted:For someone who really hasn't read the Stand or Dark Tower (and to be honest have no real inclination to) what exactly is it that Flagg has done that makes him such a reviled/iconic/beloved/famous villain? Jack poo poo. *edit* No really, he's a villain that gets a huge buildup and then it's just the standard King anticlimax where he dies offscreen or something like that and it was all a waste of time. *edit2* I think he actually did misc evil stuff in The Stand, but it's been a while since I read that... I do remember the huge anticlimaxes though. The Stand: Flagg: "I am so badass" King: "This guy is so badass and evil" Random Ne'er-do-well: "Holy crap this guy is badass" Prophesy: "Badass evil incoming!" Random Ne'er-do-wells: "I am jealous of how evil and badass Flagg is" Prophesy: "Waaaaiit for it..." Prophesy Chick: "Flagg is badass" Prophesy: "Nevermind" Deus Ex Machina: "Nevermind" King: "He Dead" The Stand: "The End." King: "Or IS he? Tune in later in more books!" Locus fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Feb 3, 2011 |
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Feb 3, 2011 06:52
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mind the walrus posted:For someone who really hasn't read the Stand or Dark Tower (and to be honest have no real inclination to) what exactly is it that Flagg has done that makes him such a reviled/iconic/beloved/famous villain? He's basically one guy who gets reincarnated multiple times as an evil dude. In Eyes of the Dragon he's trying to take control of a kingdom, in the first few Dark Tower books he's basically the main bad guy, in the Stand he leads Las Vegas, etc.
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Feb 3, 2011 07:00
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fishmech posted:He's basically one guy who gets reincarnated multiple times as an evil dude. In Eyes of the Dragon he's trying to take control of a kingdom, in the first few Dark Tower books he's basically the main bad guy, in the Stand he leads Las Vegas, etc. What does he actually do that's evil? He sounds antagonistic as hell, but what has he ever done that's unequivocally evil? mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Feb 3, 2011 |
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Feb 3, 2011 07:07
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mind the walrus posted:What does he actually do that's evil? In The Stand, he crucifies people and basically tries to nuke the survivors who won't follow him so that he can become the sole dictator of the remaining survivors. Also I think one of the Dark Tower books it's implied that he's the one who released the superflu in the first place. In The Dark Tower he basically uses his influence to lead a campaign that destroys the entire civilization of Mid-World and culminates in the fall of Gilead and the Affiliation of Baronies and the death of all Gunslingers save Roland. Although most of this is offscreen, it is true that in the actual depictions that happen, other than the crucifixions not as much is shown.
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Feb 3, 2011 07:13
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mind the walrus posted:What does he actually do that's evil? Well: -He ordered the crucifixions of anyone who broke his rules in Las Vegas -In Eyes of the Dragon, gave a king a poison cocktail that would incinerate him from the inside out, then framed the prince for it. -Orchestrated the assassination of Roland Deschaine's father, and repeatedly banged his mom (ok, that one kinda falls under being a bastard). -Was going to cut off the foot of Roland's son to use as a key to the Dark Tower before said son ate his face off and killed him. -After one of his Vegas minions screws up, he bites him to death. Those are some of the highlights.
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Feb 3, 2011 07:13
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Also he rapes someone using his terrifying and presumably lovecraftian junk.
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Feb 3, 2011 07:25
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Locus posted:Also he rapes someone using his terrifying and presumably lovecraftian junk. Yes, also that.
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Feb 3, 2011 09:40
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mind the walrus posted:What does he actually do that's evil? But if you want an answer more grounded in "reality", Flagg is like Hitler. He wins the hearts and minds of people, and convinces them to do evil things. Just like Hitler didn't directly kill any Jews, Flagg rarely gets his hands dirty.
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Feb 3, 2011 10:47
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No, Bobby Terry tried to say, but nothing came out. "HEY, BOBBY TERRY, YOU SCROOOOWED IT UP!" the dark man bellowed, and fell upon the hapless Bobby Terry. There were worse things than crucifixion. There were teeth.
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Feb 3, 2011 14:19
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In The Stand Randall Flagg also controls a pack of Wolves he sends to eat The Kid after The Kid sodomizes Trash Can Man with a pistol in the extended version.
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Feb 3, 2011 16:50
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I always thought that the reason Randall Flagg folded so easily when confronted was mostly because he just 'seemed' powerful. If he could keep tricking people into believing he had power, then he could do these horrible reprehensible things. But if 'the White' was able to get enough of an opposition to him, then his entire schtick fell apart, because they could see how the trick worked or something.
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Feb 3, 2011 17:11
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Ninja_Orca posted:I always thought that the reason Randall Flagg folded so easily when confronted was mostly because he just 'seemed' powerful. If he could keep tricking people into believing he had power, then he could do these horrible reprehensible things. But if 'the White' was able to get enough of an opposition to him, then his entire schtick fell apart, because they could see how the trick worked or something. It's an element of King's vision for the Dark Tower cycle changing over the course of the decades it took him to complete it. When he started he was inspired by epic, heroic fantasy, but in the later books he tries to subvert the tropes of that genre instead of glorifying them.
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Feb 4, 2011 00:34
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Strange Matter posted:It's an element of King's vision for the Dark Tower cycle changing over the course of the decades it took him to complete it. When he started he was inspired by epic, heroic fantasy, but in the later books he tries to subvert the tropes of that genre instead of glorifying them. I really enjoyed the tropes.
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Feb 4, 2011 00:45
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While I do appreciate people trying to subvert established genres and such, I don't think Stephen King CAN write huge epic confrontations between good and evil well at all, so it seems like a cop-out. Also you wouldn't know it by my recent posts, but I still really like King's books as a whole.  And I wouldn't be so mad about Dark Tower and The Stand if I hadn't gotten emotionally invested reading them, so there's some indication of quality.
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Feb 4, 2011 01:34
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Strange Matter posted:That's sort of the theme of The Dark Tower, and in a sense is a theme carried on in a lot of King's work. Evil in these settings takes it power from fear and distance, and when confronted it falls apart instead of overwhelms its opposition. The same thing happens when they finally meet the Crimson King. Even though King's anticlimactic endings are one of the main beefs most people have with his books, I actually like them for this reason. I mean, I didn't necessarily like the way the Crimson King scene was handled (or all of the Mordred stuff), but I liked the idea of evil overreaching itself and bringing about it's own downfall. And I still contend that the ending of The Stand fits perfectly along the lines of the book's theme of a dark, Old-Testament-style Christianity.
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Feb 4, 2011 01:52
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Thanks for the illustration everyone, that does seem consistent with what I know--very little--of Stephen King. The whole "Evil is mostly just the serpent convincing Adam and Eve to do wrong" theme is a good one. It's consistent with the end of IT actually, because in spite of IT's undoubtedly great power it's still able to be defeated by seven basically ordinary people with no special combat or survival training. Like 90% of IT's power comes from manipulation (Richie) or Smoke and Mirror tricks. That Flagg would fit into that mold seems about right, and the list of villainy is pretty despicable.
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Feb 4, 2011 06:15
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And a lot of it might be the unknown quality as well. We admittedly don't know a lot about what Randall Flagg can do at the beginning of The Stand. But as he's more defined, more of who he truly is gets laid out, he in a sense becomes less and less dangerous. It's like King himself says in Danse Macabre. When we're shown the seven foot monster behind the door, we always breath a sigh of relief. "I thought it would be eight feet tall." Same principle might apply here.
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Feb 4, 2011 06:27
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I think Subgenius has a point though. Subverting tropes makes for good storytelling, but tropes exist for a reason, because they form the foundations of genres. The Dark Tower began as an epic fantasy and ends up as something else entirely, and a lot of people (myself included) sort of wish that he'd stuck with the epic fantasy angle. So much of the series is fascinating and original that it doesn't really need King turning it on its head to keep the reader's interest. The closest thing that the Dark Tower has to a proper climax is the battle at Algul Siento, and pretty much as soon as it ends the book goes flying off the rails.
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Feb 4, 2011 16:47
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Is Randall Flagg based off of the bad guy from the short story Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?
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Feb 4, 2011 19:01
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Strange Matter posted:I think Subgenius has a point though. Subverting tropes makes for good storytelling, but tropes exist for a reason, because they form the foundations of genres. The Dark Tower began as an epic fantasy and ends up as something else entirely, and a lot of people (myself included) sort of wish that he'd stuck with the epic fantasy angle. So much of the series is fascinating and original that it doesn't really need King turning it on its head to keep the reader's interest. I don't think I'm unique in that I was propelled through the entirety of The Dark Tower series based on how much I really liked "The Gunslinger". I loved that book. It drew from a lot of familiar themes and images, but it put them together in a really unique way while managing to remain engaging. By the time I was into the fifth book, I didn't really know what to think about the series. I still enjoyed the characters, but the story and setting was weird and haphazard. The series started feeling like a set of episodic short stories rather than an epic journey. That being said, it was interesting to observe how King's style changed over the course of the seven books. Interesting, but not necessarily enjoyable. There was something about "The Gunslinger" that made it seem like a timeless tale that had been told over countless generations with no one person being the author, but there is no mistaking the later books for anything other than Steven King books. Subgenius fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Feb 4, 2011 |
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Feb 4, 2011 20:52
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Just finished the extended edition of The Stand. Anybody mind telling me what's added to the original edition?
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Feb 11, 2011 06:03
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Soul Glo posted:Just finished the extended edition of The Stand. Anybody mind telling me what's added to the original edition? I'm pretty sure the very first chapter with Campion waking his family and taking off wasn't in the original, and I know for sure the epilogue with Flagg wasn't. There's a lot more of Trashcan Man's journey in the extended edition, I'm pretty sure the entire bit with The Kid is missing in the original. There's also a lot more with Fran and her family before the plague in the extended version. The extended is also set about a decade later than the original and he never changed some details to coincide with this, so some of the scenes where the prices of things are discussed seem kinda weird if you think about it.
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Feb 11, 2011 06:29
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Soul Glo posted:Just finished the extended edition of The Stand. Anybody mind telling me what's added to the original edition? Also the entire section in the middle of the book talking about people that survived the flu but died because of other reasons.
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Feb 11, 2011 17:48
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Wiggly posted:Also the entire section in the middle of the book talking about people that survived the flu but died because of other reasons. That entire section made it worthwhile.
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Feb 11, 2011 17:54
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Wiggly posted:Also the entire section in the middle of the book talking about people that survived the flu but died because of other reasons. That has always been one of my favorite chapters in a King novel.
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Feb 11, 2011 19:59
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Soul Glo posted:Just finished the extended edition of The Stand. Anybody mind telling me what's added to the original edition? It's set in 1978 or something. As said above The Kid is missing completely. The awesome chapter about random people dying in stupid ways is missing. Fran's fight with her mother is missing. It starts with Campion crashing into the gas pump; the lead up to it is missing. There's less Nick Andros (Nick is AWESOME!) and as said above the epilogue with Flagg isn't there. I think that's it . . .
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Feb 11, 2011 21:01
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