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The pain is very real, hence why when Eddie Guerrero was still heavy on steroids and painkillers, he was considered "clean"
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Feb 6, 2011 04:44
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Thanks guys. Getting into wrestling a little bit has been satisfying. CM Punk pretty much rules.
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Feb 6, 2011 04:51
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McNutty posted:Thanks guys. Getting into wrestling a little bit has been satisfying. CM Punk pretty much rules. You are a smart man.
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Feb 6, 2011 04:52
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Smackdown was definitely the A show during 2009, particularly during Summer of Punk III.
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Feb 6, 2011 06:06
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bobkatt013 posted:Look at the 6 big ladder match wrestlers. Jeff and Matt? Well less said the better. Edge? Does not really work high risk style anymore. Same with Christian. Only ones that have careers that are not jokes Bubba and D'von? Just got fat to be fair Dvon is still jacked as all hell. Bubba was always chubby but yeah he's gotten fatter enough for both of them
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Feb 6, 2011 08:10
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MassRayPer posted:No. At first it was a big deal and drew more viewers than Raw so they would be crazy to see it as the be show. At best Raw was A and Smackdown was A-. As the ratings decline in the post Attitude era happened, Smackdown slipped more than Raw, and then was moved to Fridays where ratings got even worse. It would still draw the same number of viewers as Raw, but only rarely when Raw did a poor number. By the move to Fridays it was clearly a B show.
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Feb 6, 2011 11:14
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lexingtondisoro posted:Smackdown was definitely the A show during 2009, particularly during Summer of Punk III. Well, it was weather they wanted it to be or not.
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Feb 6, 2011 18:03
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Twisted Eye posted:Wasn't WWE's ECW the first WWE program on what is now-SyFy? I remember them either justifying the channel or parodying the channel (never could decide which I thought it was) for the first couple weeks with Sandman. Also, I think they brought in the Zombie for the Sci-Fi shows. Thinking about this, apart from the Undertaker and Kane, what supernatural or weird sf or other plainly-not-real gimmicks have ever actually gotten over in a major promotion? (The Ultimate Warrior may or may not count.) It seems this sort of thing almost never works, but it still pops up now and again...
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Feb 6, 2011 20:47
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I am not sure whether he was really over, but I do know when Papa Shango cast voodoo spells on Warrior I was loving terrified as a kid.
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Feb 6, 2011 20:49
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Maxwell Lord posted:Also, I think they brought in the Zombie for the Sci-Fi shows. I dunno, does Crow Sting count?
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Feb 6, 2011 20:53
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Vampiro and his blood thing, it killed everyone except Vince Russo.
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Feb 6, 2011 21:00
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:I dunno, does Crow Sting count? Gonna say yes.
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Feb 6, 2011 21:12
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DannoMack posted:I am not sure whether he was really over, but I do know when Papa Shango cast voodoo spells on Warrior I was loving terrified as a kid.  I think everyone has a "wrestling moments that scared us as kids" moments.
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Feb 6, 2011 21:53
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Atticus Finch posted:As a kid, I was always really afraid whenever Yokozuna went to the second rope and sat on people. I did as well - even moreso when it was someone like Bret Hart that I was a big fan of. Don't kill my favorite wrestler you bastard! I get a similar (but much less markish) reaction nowadays when I see someone do the 'get their back rammed into the ring apron' spot or anytime Alicia Fox uses her axe kick.
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Feb 6, 2011 22:04
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I think when I first kind of got into wrestling Jake the Snake was a heel so combine that with my dumb fear of snakes and I basically hated Jake. I remember the cobra biting Macho Man thing freaking me out when I was like 6.
Suben fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Feb 6, 2011 |
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Feb 6, 2011 22:14
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I also had that fear of snakes and hated Jake, so years later when I found out he was a good guy at times I was flabbergasted.
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Feb 6, 2011 22:17
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Atticus Finch posted:I also had that fear of snakes and hated Jake, so years later when I found out he was a good guy at times I was flabbergasted. Then found out that his entire life has sucked and he has series issues that you just feel pity for him.
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Feb 6, 2011 22:18
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Maxwell Lord posted:Also, I think they brought in the Zombie for the Sci-Fi shows. There was The Brood an the "red liquid" they used to dump on people. I'm 99% certain the announcers sold that as a supernatural event. Granted, they eventually ended up in the Ministry, so that may not count as "aside from Undertaker and Kane."
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Feb 7, 2011 01:25
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Maxwell Lord posted:Also, I think they brought in the Zombie for the Sci-Fi shows. Define "got over". Wrestlecrap was full of supernatural gimmicks, some of which lasted quite a while.
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Feb 7, 2011 01:33
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The Boogieman Hornswoggle
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Feb 7, 2011 01:38
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I used to be mildly scared of Andre the Giant, but my younger cousin used to be loving terrified of Doink the Clown.
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Feb 7, 2011 03:27
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Another open ended question: Besides The Rockers and Steenerico, what are some other shocking/amazing tag team break up angles?
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Feb 7, 2011 05:42
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The A-Team Van posted:Besides The Rockers and Steenerico, what are some other shocking/amazing tag team break up angles? THE MEGA POWERS EXPLODE is the best of all-time as long as you pretend it ends at Mania V. Tag team breakup angles usually suck because either the partners don't want to be broken up or nobody cares (including the bookers).
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Feb 7, 2011 07:09
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jeffersonlives posted:Tag team breakup angles usually suck because either the partners don't want to be broken up or nobody cares (including the bookers). What could have been a really fun and entertaining breakup between Edge and Christian ended up happening during the Invasion. Shockingly, it didn't have the best of development, didn't get a lot of focus, and ended in a ladder match, which was the sixth ladder match that year.
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Feb 7, 2011 07:21
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Exhibit A: Cryme Tyme Exhibit B: Hart Dynasty ... Exhibit ZZZZZ:
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Feb 7, 2011 07:35
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Captain Charisma posted:Exhibit ZZZZZ: Hollywood Blonds
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Feb 7, 2011 07:41
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jeffersonlives posted:Hollywood Blonds Not enough  's in the world.
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Feb 7, 2011 07:44
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Web Jew.0 posted:The Boogieman Going back to the discussion about worst WM matches in the WWE thread, can someone explain this Brawl for All thing for me? I've heard it explained several times but I still don't understand what it was, which parts were shoot fights and which weren't and why Bart Gunn winning was bad. Sue Denim fucked around with this message at 09:46 on Feb 7, 2011 |
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Feb 7, 2011 09:40
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Edit: Double post, my bad.
Sue Denim fucked around with this message at 09:46 on Feb 7, 2011 |
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Feb 7, 2011 09:43
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Sue Denim posted:Going back to the discussion about worst WM matches in the WWE thread, can someone explain this Brawl for All thing for me? I've heard it explained several times but I still don't understand what it was, which parts were shoot fights and which weren't and why Bart Gunn winning was bad. The idea was put on a series of short boxing matches with wrestlers, with the overall goal being to put over Dr Death Steve Williams by having him box Butterbean at Mania in an exhibition match. However despite having a clear winner in mind, they decided to actually make the tournament matches legitimate, and Williams got knocked out in one of his matches (by Bart Gunn, I believe, who went on to win the whole thing). So they kind of had their hands tied, Bart Gunn was a pretty generic wrestler, the former half a tag team with Billy Gunn, and not somebody they were really interested in pushing, certainly not to a Wrestlemania Exhibition match - the guy really didn't have much in the way of flair, crowd interest or any "it" factor. So come Mania, they do the big pre-fight hooplah, put this poor bastard in the ring against the freakshow KO machine Butterbean and we all watched him get his head promptly smashed off and that was that.
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Feb 7, 2011 09:48
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Brawl 4 All was a take off on the popularity of MMA. Of course, this was done right as UFC started its steep decline due to John McCain being a total oval office/stooge of the boxing lobby. Participation was voluntary. Their hope was a guy like Shamrock would win it, but Shamrock wouldn't do it. So of those who entered the presumed favorite was Dr. Death and the guy they wanted to push coming out of it. The rules were basically boxing with takedowns. Once the fight hit the ground it was stood back up. So they took most of the interesting parts of MMA out of MMA. All of the fighters were shoots. The Butterbean fight with Bart Gunn was a later idea, it took place about 8 months after the tournament ended.
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Feb 7, 2011 09:54
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Bart Gunn was actually really, really over at the end of Brawl For All and I think he was a lot better than you're giving him credit for. There's all kinds of rumors about why they never gave him a chance, most of which circle back in some form into "they were really pissed he won instead of Williams." The idea also wasn't Williams vs. Butterbean, it was to build Williams as a legit shooter to feud with Steve Austin as Vince McMahon's new hired gun. The Butterbean thing was many, many months later after they'd buried Gunn and then yanked him from television. eta: Semi-beaten by MRP but I think we have slightly different takes.
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Feb 7, 2011 09:56
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MassRayPer posted:The Butterbean fight with Bart Gunn was a later idea, it took place about 8 months after the tournament ended. Ahh okay, I actually don't remember that much length between the initial fights and Mania but I guess I was just conflating a bunch of stuff together.
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Feb 7, 2011 09:57
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quote:Brawl 4 All was a take off on the popularity of MMA. Of course, this was done right as UFC started its steep decline due to John McCain being a total oval office/stooge of the boxing lobby. This is getting off on a side discussion but I recall UFC in general being mostly retarded for a while. Like, "OK we will get a few serious fighters and have them KO these fat guys and shrimpy motherfuckers" and other circus poo poo. Also "We will create a rulebook as we go" which led to things like a guy winning a match by rabbit punching his opponent's groin.
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Feb 7, 2011 10:06
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Brawl For All also had the usual Vince Russo problem where by saying "THIS IS REALLY REAL" you're breaking the fourth wall and reminding everyone that everything else is fake and unimportant. And while 90% of the audience knows that wrestling is fake, it's generally not good form to keep hammering it home in the middle of the show.OneThousandMonkeys posted:This is getting off on a side discussion but I recall UFC in general being mostly retarded for a while. Like, "OK we will get a few serious fighters and have them KO these fat guys and shrimpy motherfuckers" and other circus poo poo. Also "We will create a rulebook as we go" which led to things like a guy winning a match by rabbit punching his opponent's groin. We've talked about this a bit in the MMA questions thread, but MMA doesn't really come together with a cohesive rules set that looks pretty much like what we know now until the late-90s. The original idea for UFC was basically just an infomercial for Gracie BJJ, and things like Shooto and Pancrase were still relatively in their infancy and not really A Big Deal until UFC was already underway, so they were making it up as they went along. Rules changed from promotion to promotion and even show to show within the major promotions, it was unregulated, etc. oldfan fucked around with this message at 10:10 on Feb 7, 2011 |
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Feb 7, 2011 10:07
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:This is getting off on a side discussion but I recall UFC in general being mostly retarded for a while. Like, "OK we will get a few serious fighters and have them KO these fat guys and shrimpy motherfuckers" and other circus poo poo. Also "We will create a rulebook as we go" which led to things like a guy winning a match by rabbit punching his opponent's groin. Well the original idea was to have as close to no rules as possible with every style of martial arts competing. But over time this was shown to be a bad idea. So slowly things like groin strikes and small joint manipulation were banned, weight classes were added, etc. Then the Unified Rules came about and we got the weight classes and rules we have today. Slowly the joke martial arts and the bar room brawlers were weeded out as well. Every sport's rules evolve. Baseball has changed a lot over the last 100 years, and they have less fat unathletic people now too! That isn't to say the UFC's original owners were very savvy. But it wasn't supposed to be a long running thing. They wanted to do a tournament, and then maybe a second if the first one did well enough. So there wasn't a lot of forward thinking.
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Feb 7, 2011 10:11
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MassRayPer posted:Well the original idea was to have as close to no rules as possible with every style of martial arts competing. But over time this was shown to be a bad idea. So slowly things like groin strikes and small joint manipulation were banned, weight classes were added, etc. Then the Unified Rules came about and we got the weight classes and rules we have today. Slowly the joke martial arts and the bar room brawlers were weeded out as well. Every sport's rules evolve. Baseball has changed a lot over the last 100 years, and they have less fat unathletic people now too! The point I'm getting around to is that a literally Anything Goes Fighting Tournament with no regulations is bad and dumb and probably deserves a senator to hound it. I wish senators would get more on WWE's poo poo. And stuff like no weight classes is just completely stupid. You can't just say "Oh we're learning as we're going" when your starting point is no regard for safety, responsibility or logic.
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Feb 7, 2011 10:23
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:The point I'm getting around to is that a literally Anything Goes Fighting Tournament with no regulations is bad and dumb and probably deserves a senator to hound it. I wish senators would get more on WWE's poo poo. And stuff like no weight classes is just completely stupid. You can't just say "Oh we're learning as we're going" when your starting point is no regard for safety, responsibility or logic. In what way? If you put today's fighters in a no rules environment, yes it would be very dangerous. But anyone who thinks that No Holds Barred fighting was particularly dangerous for a combat sport did not actually watch early UFCs. The fights were either over quickly or obscenely long, boring lay and pray sessions where no one could possibly get hurt. As dangers appeared, they were outlawed. This is how it works in every sport. Look at how long it took for the NFL to try and stop shots to the head. You cannot come up with a perfectly safe sport from day one. And No Holds Barred fighting with the submission/TKO/corner stoppage system they had in place was fine for avoiding dangerous injuries. No weight classes wasn't stupid at all since THE FIRST UFCS WERE DOMINATED BY THE SMALLEST DUDE IN THE TOURNAMENT. The entire reason the Gracies wanted to do these tournaments was so Gracie Jiu Jitsu could be shown to be the most effective martial art. They did this by having Royce, the small babysitting Gracie go in and dominate. There weren't any skilled giant fighters who would pose a health risk due to their size. That was A. the idea, and B. the reality. These things didn't exist in the early UFCs because there was literally no need for them. You can bitch about it in retrospect, but in the early days of the sport things simply weren't evolved enough for it to be a problem. Hell, to this day the only really serious injury caused due to a lack of weight classes is Ninja's brain damage in in the 04 Pride Openweight GP. The lack of rules and the lack of weight classes was a loving gimmick with no real practical application other than "oh no, some dude is getting punched in the groin!" "Oh no, the little dudes are beating the big dudes every time we put this type of match on!" McCain's crusade against UFC was an utter joke not at all based in the reality of the situation, and coming from a man who has seen boxers die in the ring in front of him. Regulation for UFC is a good thing, but his solution of trying to ban the loving sport is retarded, and demanding comprehensive rules for something in its infancy is impossible and retarded. Every single sport evolves, they do not spring from the womb fully grown. Edit: The main point is, the entire nature of MMA is what makes it safer than most other combat sports. The referee is de jure and de facto empowered to stop fights when it gets dangerous. There are no counts for a concussed fighter to get back up and keep going. So even if some super dangerous technique evolved out of no where before it could be outlawed, unless someone invents a bullshido death blow the referee can just end the fight before anyone's life is at risk. MassRafTer fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Feb 7, 2011 |
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Feb 7, 2011 10:38
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:The point I'm getting around to is that a literally Anything Goes Fighting Tournament with no regulations is bad and dumb and probably deserves a senator to hound it. I wish senators would get more on WWE's poo poo. And stuff like no weight classes is just completely stupid. You can't just say "Oh we're learning as we're going" when your starting point is no regard for safety, responsibility or logic. well there were no weight classes in the beginning because the point was that styles trumped any other factor. but I see where you're coming from and agree
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Feb 7, 2011 10:40
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McCain was going after UFC because he's very closely tied to the boxing promoters and beer companies and it was hurting their business, not for any good reason. Although in general I think regulation has been good, there are certainly also significant aspects of regulation of MMA (athletic commissions that don't understand the sport, 12-to-6 elbow strikes, Adelaide Byrd, grounded knees, Cecil Peoples) which are very bad.
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Feb 7, 2011 10:47
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