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^^^^ DUDE! The Battlemaster is a *sick* damage-dealing machine. Did you ever count up the damage they can do? It's pretty drat hefty. The most recent model is a crit-seeking nightmare too. And most importantly, if it was good enough for Hanse Davion it's drat well good enough for you. Tempest_56 posted:The head has a perfectly good open critical slot.
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Feb 10, 2011 02:51
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The Merry Marauder posted:In honor of Miller's Marauders, no doubt being mauled by some Clanner surats: I think the worst part of being in this thread with almost no knowledge of BattleTech/MechWarrior is that awesome posts like this are wasted on me... because I can't look at that mech without my brain automatically identifying it as a Zentradi command mech. 
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Feb 10, 2011 03:20
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W.T. Fits posted:I think the worst part of being in this thread with almost no knowledge of BattleTech/MechWarrior is that awesome posts like this are wasted on me... because I can't look at that mech without my brain automatically identifying it as a Zentradi command mech. You get used to it. I found an old Robotech toy at a garage sale a few years ago. My first reaction was 'Oh, awesome, a Warhammer!'. I can't even remember the non-BT name for it anymore without looking it up.
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Feb 10, 2011 03:25
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Tempest_56 posted:You get used to it. I found an old Robotech toy at a garage sale a few years ago. My first reaction was 'Oh, awesome, a Warhammer!'. I can't even remember the non-BT name for it anymore without looking it up. Excalibur 
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Feb 10, 2011 03:49
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Tomahawk. 
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Feb 10, 2011 03:52
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Arquinsiel posted:^^^^ I'm assuming this is directed at me. The Battlemaster is an excellent 'mech. But I stand by my statement that it's not a true 'assault' machine. It's optimized for leading heavies. A true assault 'mech is designed for one purpose: Blowing through anything and everything in front of it in order to take a heavily defended point. (Or to defend such strongpoints). This requires a design that is optimized to deal with other heavy units, whether armor or BattleMechs. See my previous analysis of the Stalker for a good example - exceptional firepower at all ranges. Or the Awesome with it's ability to lay down a continuous barrage of PPC fire. (Banshee-S and Atlas also qualify.) The only thing a Battlemaster can bring to bear at ranges beyond 9 is a single PPC. Now, this is backed up by an excellent close-in battery - 4MLs, an SRM6 and machine guns to clear out infantry - but the point still stands. Battlemasters should be used more like heavy 'mechs. It's a commander's machine - able to keep up with the main flow of battle while dishing out solid, non ammo dependent damage. (Note the deep magazine for the SRM6 - 30 rounds gives you a hell of a long time before you run dry.) Only thing the design could really use is a half-ton less MG ammo.
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Feb 10, 2011 04:14
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Don't know that I'd say the Atlas-7D has good long ranged firepower. All it has is that LRM-20. Up close the AC/20 ML and SRM combo is deadly, but it's not much at range. Please note that I want to contrast it with the Banshee-S, but won't because it's not fair. The particular Steiner the S stands for is, in this context, specifically Scott "Big Poppa Pump" Steiner, which means that the Banshee-S is a genetic freak and that there is nobody finer. Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Feb 10, 2011 |
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Feb 10, 2011 04:28
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Defiance Industries posted:Don't know that I'd say the Atlas-7D has good long ranged firepower. All it has is that LRM-20. Up close the AC/20 ML and SRM combo is deadly, but it's not much at range. True - but the Atlas is a giant pile of armor, and exists to soak up damage as the rest of the assault company closes. At 3/5, it can only be a pure assault machine.
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Feb 10, 2011 05:03
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Kenlon posted:Strong battlefield role doesn't mean single engagement ranges, though. Take the venerable Thunderbolt. The LRM-15 starts hitting the enemy at long ranges, supplemented by the Large Laser, then dropping the Large to bring the battery of mediums to bear at 6's, then moving to Large, mediums and the SRM at point blank, dropping out weapons individually to manage heat. The T-bolt is an amazing anvil precisely because of it's all range threat - you can't afford to ignore or bypass it without paying for your temerity. I love the Thunderbolt all to pieces, but I prefer the ELH variant that adds jump jets instead of the anti-infantry suite. That leaves the 3 MLAS to swap in for the LRMs up close, which is a practical and uncluttered arrangement, unlike the Stalker profile. I'd rather have increased mobility than a tertiary range band. Kenlon posted:You're failing to classify the [/i]Stalker[/i]'s range bands correctly. That is an excellent analysis of the Stalker's capabilities, but you are giving something up for that enormous (some would say excessive) flexibility. For one thing, being 3/5 means your ponderous advance to short/medium is going to be impeded by slopes, trees, or Blake-forbid, trees on slopes. Why not leave the close-in brawling to the heavy-leaders like Battlemasters who have the extra mobility to close and let the Stalker kick rear end inexorably from range befitting its sloth with something like 2xPPC+8HS in lieu of the LLAS and short range suite? Given that last, it'll probably not surprise you to hear that I think the Awesome is the best 3025 assault, but I concede some flexibility is a fine thing. Kenlon posted:It has less to do with new equipment than with a return to old style design, with 'mechs being designed around range banding and heat management rather than being alpha babies. The realization that 4/6 XL machines are a liability in most cases is also a big deal. (XL is perfectly suited for the new breed of heavy cav machines, though, such as my beloved Lao Hu.) Excellent point about the XL engines, though I think that can still be linked to Clan envy.
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Feb 10, 2011 05:11
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Part of the move away from XL engines can be attributed to the Light engine. It gave designers an alternative (though for a while, only Steiner and WoB engineers).
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Feb 10, 2011 05:25
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The Merry Marauder posted:I love the Thunderbolt all to pieces, but I prefer the ELH variant that adds jump jets instead of the anti-infantry suite. That leaves the 3 MLAS to swap in for the LRMs up close, which is a practical and uncluttered arrangement, unlike the Stalker profile. I'd rather have increased mobility than a tertiary range band. The Eridani T-bolt is a solid machine, but the LRM10 doesn't group nearly as nicely as the LRM15 on the cluster table. Plus, you give up your ability to deal with infantry - and under the Total Warfare ruleset, that's a serious liability for an all-rounder like the Thunderbolt. The Merry Marauder posted:That is an excellent analysis of the Stalker's capabilities, but you are giving something up for that enormous (some would say excessive) flexibility. For one thing, being 3/5 means your ponderous advance to short/medium is going to be impeded by slopes, trees, or Blake-forbid, trees on slopes. Why not leave the close-in brawling to the heavy-leaders like Battlemasters who have the extra mobility to close and let the Stalker kick rear end inexorably from range befitting its sloth with something like 2xPPC+8HS in lieu of the LLAS and short range suite? If your enemy stays out, you hit them with LRM barrages while moving in on whatever they are trying to protect. If they come in at you to get their weapons to bear, you are ready to greet them with laser death. Given that the proper role of true assaults is to take objectives rather than try to destroy the enemy's forces directly, the Stalker fits the bill nicely. If you're picking your targets correctly, the enemy will still have to try to stop you regardless, letting your slower machines still come to grips with them. (The concept of a pin applies in more than just chess.) The Merry Marauder posted:Excellent point about the XL engines, though I think that can still be linked to Clan envy. A large part of it actually had to do with the oversinked nature of the designs - large XL engines were used to hide more DHS off the crit chart. Try taking something like the AWS-9M and making it 3/5 with a standard engine. (Of course, this is due to overuse of newtech weapons, too).
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Feb 10, 2011 05:31
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WarLocke posted:- Most heavily armored section This seems perfectly sensible, but it's not. An ammo hit in the center torso will automatically kill a Mechwarrior. An ammo hit in any other location (except the head, that's also an instant kill) will not.
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Feb 10, 2011 05:38
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PoptartsNinja posted:This seems perfectly sensible, but it's not. Well, this is only because they made Ejection rules optional under Total Warfare. Sigh. Previously, Autoeject would make it less suicidal, and given that it was the 3025 Marauder under discussion, it's a fair point. I'm not familiar with the exact wording of the rule, absent CASE, if the LT ammo explodes with enough carryover to vaporize the CT as well, does the Mechwarrior die? (I play with autoeject rules in 3025) \/ It's a beast, true enough! The Merry Marauder fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Feb 10, 2011 |
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Feb 10, 2011 05:58
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The Merry Marauder posted:I love the Thunderbolt all to pieces, but I prefer the ELH variant that adds jump jets instead of the anti-infantry suite. That leaves the 3 MLAS to swap in for the LRMs up close, which is a practical and uncluttered arrangement, unlike the Stalker profile. I'd rather have increased mobility than a tertiary range band. Thunderbolts are probably one of my favorite mechs. Particularly the TDR-5SS. PPC, 3 med lasers, an SRM-6 and a flamer. It's a Battlemaster Jr.
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Feb 10, 2011 06:06
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Kenlon posted:Engines exploding, period. Fusion reactors can't do that, as the reaction would cease pretty much immediately after containment is lost. Which amusingly enough they now admit to in-universe thanks to a rather nice piece of fluff in the new Tech Manual on Battlemechs (has a nice sidebar calling it out specifically). BT fusion engines have enough heat shielding that once the fusion reaction hits the walls of the reactor (which instantly kills the reaction from temperature drop) the left over residual heat would barely scuff the reactor wall. Mechs "going nuclear" are just having their reactor penetrated and sucking in a lot of air which gets superheated and bursts back out in a fireball (and since any damage that can go that far in usually wrecks the center torso said fireball is accompanied by the Mech falling apart in an "explosion"). Kai's trick was retconned as him superheating the reactor so he could get a (non-nuclear) explosion because the heat was actually high enough to get through the reactor shielding once he screwballed the thing. Not a big boom, but enough to set off the nearby charges. They still have the Stackpole rules listed, but at least it's accompanied by an introductory statement saying "this wouldn't actually work, but people thought it was cool so...". Other entertaining fluff of note; apparently most IS mech designs are designed with rather roomy cockpits under the assumption they might spend weeks in the field. This includes a toilet to boot (since the Mech is designed to crack the water for hydrogen, they can even "refuel" the engine that way). Clan mechs on the other hand, being made for short Trials, tend to use small cockpits in the name of "efficiency". Thus for the aforementioned waste disposal issues, Clan warriors "depend on bottles, baggies, or self-discipline. Think on that concept for a while, and you may see why the Clans come off as such an irate people"  .PoptartsNinja posted:This seems perfectly sensible, but it's not. That doesn't make any sense; they have an auto-eject that goes off when ammo blows (it can be disabled, but unless you have CASE or would rather die than be Dispossessed no one does). I don't recall the auto-eject coming "after" the explosion; that would make it useless since by definition an ammo explosion kills the Mech by transferring enough excess damage to the CT to destroy it. You still get the feedback damage to the pilot but the auto-eject puts him outside the Mech before the ammo explosion kills him. Can't speak to the head thing, but that should permit ammo in the CT. Unless you have CASE, in which case (pun intended) you should leave it in the side torso so the Mech doesn't die. EDIT: Re: Marauder's question, auto-eject on ammo explosion rules still exist (Tactical Operations).
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Feb 10, 2011 06:16
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Sair posted:Thunderbolts are probably one of my favorite mechs. Particularly the TDR-5SS. PPC, 3 med lasers, an SRM-6 and a flamer. It's a Battlemaster Jr. That reminds me, with the embargo on non-macross unseen designs gone, a bunch of folks on the Battletech forums raised some money to finance a new sculpt based on old TDR from Iron Wind. Hopefully it'll look better than the old mini. Also, I think that introductory university lecture from the Tech Manual might be one of my favorite vignettes from the current rulebooks. Which I quite enjoy, like the one mentioned a while back about a bunch of farmers trying to fight off a bandit urbanmech, or the one in TW about some poor schmuck who keeps getting captured as a spy, mindwiped, and released as a decoy in the next successor state over.
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Feb 10, 2011 06:29
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Der Waffle Mous posted:That reminds me, with the embargo on non-macross unseen designs gone, a bunch of folks on the Battletech forums raised some money to finance a new sculpt based on old TDR from Iron Wind. If 3rdCrucisLancers is reading this thread: take a bow, Ed. Or you will never see that bouncy castle.
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Feb 10, 2011 06:34
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Sair posted:Thunderbolts are probably one of my favorite mechs. Particularly the TDR-5SS. PPC, 3 med lasers, an SRM-6 and a flamer. It's a Battlemaster Jr. I don't particularly like the aesthetics of the T-Bolt, but yeah it's a pretty awesome all-around machine. I still think the original Centurion design is one of the most kick-rear end looking mechs in canon, though. And the 3025 weapon mix is pretty good for a 50-tonner. AC/10, LRM10, 2 ML (even if one is 'wasted' being rear-mounted). Stick that rear laser underslung on the left arm and it'd be just about perfect IMO.
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Feb 10, 2011 06:38
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The Merry Marauder posted:Given that last, it'll probably not surprise you to hear that I think the Awesome is the best 3025 assault, but I concede some flexibility is a fine thing. I agree after this last Match i think alot more people agree with me 
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Feb 10, 2011 06:43
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Still waiting on a turn 3 action. Please stand by.
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Feb 10, 2011 06:50
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PoptartsNinja posted:Still waiting on a turn 3 action. Please stand by. I sent in my final decision, if that's what you're waiting on.
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Feb 10, 2011 06:52
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My bad. Was mulling over my decision
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Feb 10, 2011 06:57
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Never hesitate. Always be decisive! The Death Commandos could be murdering hostages while you guys lollygag about
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Feb 10, 2011 07:02
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MadDogMike posted:cockpits Can you imagine the smell of a used mech cockpit? Weeks of sweat, solvents, overheated electronics, toilet breaks... I imagine real mech jocks have to take a shower or two before they're ready to be adored by the masses after their latest victory. *shudder* It would smell so bad in there. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 07:25 on Feb 10, 2011 |
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Feb 10, 2011 07:22
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Kenlon posted:The MAD-3R is one of the true classics - a heavy mech capable of engaging almost any other machine with a good chance of success. The twin PPCs and AC/5 give the ability to engage at long range, with the medium lasers for close in work, letting the mechwarrior cut his heat buildup while still providing roughly equivalent firepower. The trouble with the Marauder is that while it's all very well and good fluff-wise as one of the most well-renowned 'Mechs in history, it has a fatal flaw in the left torso ammo. With zero other components in the section\, ANY critical hit becomes a virtual instant kill. Combine that with the fact that the Marauder's side torsos are proportionally the weakest-armoured sections on the entire 'Mech... Attack it from the left side until you get a torso breach, then pour in the SRMs. In all of the occasions where I've run a battle involving a stock Marauder, they've gone down to an ammo explosion about 80% of the time, mostly when they otherwise still had plenty of fight left in them. tl;dr: The person who designed the MAR-3R's daddy is like the Inner Sphere 'Tech who placed a captured Clan ballistic weapon in a location that didn't include CASE: he shoulda used protection before mounting that HAG.
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Feb 10, 2011 08:31
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Breetai posted:The trouble with the Marauder is that while it's all very well and good fluff-wise as one of the most well-renowned 'Mechs in history, it has a fatal flaw in the left torso ammo. With zero other components in the section\, ANY critical hit becomes a virtual instant kill. Combine that with the fact that the Marauder's side torsos are proportionally the weakest-armoured sections on the entire 'Mech...  you're not correct. There's also two Heat Sinks in that left torso location.That said, there's a simple fix: Open up the Marauder MAD-3R in your mech editing program of choice. Relocate that ton of ammo to the empty HD slot. While you're at it, you may as well remove those heat sinks - you can put them in the right torso to give your AC/5 a 2/6 chance of not getting blown up if you take RT crits, or you can put them in the legs to give your precious actuator joints another ablative heat sink. You could also add them to the CT to give your precious engine and gyro a chance to not get hosed on a CT crit. Personally, though, I favor stripping off the AC/5 and the AC ammo altogether, maximizing the armor, adding a large laser to the CT, those two heat sinks from before to the legs, and the extra heat sink to the head. Yes, this can generate far more heat than you can actually dissipate, but if you can resist the temptation to alpha (which will shut you down after its done,) you should be pretty good. Can't put damage out as fast as the 3R, but it's not nearly as vulnerable.
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Feb 10, 2011 09:27
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I don't think it's so much a matter of wanting to 'min-max' the Marauder's setup as it is kind of weird that the ammo isn't in the same location as the weapon. Surely that would make more sense from a design point of view, and it has the secondary benefit of not making the machine (quite) as prone to ammo explosions since the ammo would no longer be the only thing in the crit table.
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Feb 10, 2011 09:38
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WarLocke posted:I don't think it's so much a matter of wanting to 'min-max' the Marauder's setup as it is kind of weird that the ammo isn't in the same location as the weapon. Surely that would make more sense from a design point of view, and it has the secondary benefit of not making the machine (quite) as prone to ammo explosions since the ammo would no longer be the only thing in the crit table. With no criticals used in the section, all left torso crits would just transfer straight into the center torso and cripple the Marauder anyway. I mean, yeah, it's still a stupid choice when they could've just dumped a heat sink in there and called it a day.
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Feb 10, 2011 09:47
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:If you can resist the temptation to alpha I always always alpha without fail.
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Feb 10, 2011 09:50
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:
Nope. Heat Sinks: 16 - Single (12 in engine) 6.00 Heat Sink Locations: 2 LL, 2 RL
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Feb 10, 2011 09:51
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Battlemasters, while being relatively inefficient have the best short-range weaponry in all of 3025 going for them. 4 ML and SRM6 is an unequaled battery that remains competitive throughout all the rulesets. It's light at 8 tons, relatively low heat at 16 points, packs a heavy punch with 28 average damage and 8 average hit locations. Of course double heat sinks kind of spoil it since you get to double the package. 8 ML and 2 SRM6 is nothing to scoff at. Too bad the efficiency of energy weapons was never really fixed. They were the best pick since 3025 and every new set of equipment made them better. Thank god for stock designs which had all sorts of bad ideas in them; they made the actual gameplay interesting. Like Shadow Hawk: if you against all odds hit with every weapon and roll max hits on every missile table, you do exactly 19 points of damage. And let's not even go to "proof of concept" mechs like Charger or "Terror of Amaris" which had to be able to take out a company of battlemechs alone. To accomplish this it was fitted with 30 medium lasers and a bunch of PPCs.
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Feb 10, 2011 10:23
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Well, there's the iHGR. That thing is a cockfucking hellcannon. Also, the Plasma Rifle is stupid good in most cases. Other than that it's basically energy weapons all the way to the bank.
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Feb 10, 2011 10:32
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Eh, the PPC category aside, I've never really been a fan of the newer energy stuff. For the most part you're paying a *lot* of extra heat for a modest increase in range, or in the case of the pulse lasers, being able to only shoot up to medium range for an increase in accuracy at point blank. There's something about the standard medium laser that just strikes me as right. Now PPC's, I love all of the new stuff. So much.
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Feb 10, 2011 10:38
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Defiance Industries posted:Well, there's the iHGR. That thing is a cockfucking hellcannon. Also, the Plasma Rifle is stupid good in most cases. What about the LB10-X? It's pretty much the perfect ballistic weapon.
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Feb 10, 2011 11:02
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Breetai posted:Nope. Huh. That's different from the version that's displayed in The Drawing Board. I can be lazy. Still, putting the ammo in the LT is like they deliberately introduced a design flaw to give the Marauder an Achilles heel.
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Feb 10, 2011 11:04
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Defiance Industries posted:Well, there's the iHGR. That thing is a cockfucking hellcannon. Also, the Plasma Rifle is stupid good in most cases. The plasma rifle's an energy weapon actually. It's just a very strange one that uses ammunition. Also, the machine gun is an amazing ballistic weapon in giant banks. It's a ballistic weapon that uses ammo, but with 200 shots a ton and .5 tons per MG and zero heat, they are a surprisingly credible, low BV short range battery. In fact, I would say that most melee designs would not suffer much if you tore out their melee weapon and replaced it with a giant brace of machine guns and a half-ton of ammo. As a bonus, if you're a member of the Draconis Combine, a large MG bank makes atrocities much easier to commit due to tearing through civilians like butter! So yeah, don't underestimate the lowly machine gun-it just needs to, like the Small Laser, be used in absolutely absurd amounts. Other good but underestimated ballistic weapons: Light Gauss Rifles (8 damage doesn't seem like much, but you get plenty of ammo, they're very long-range, and if you have a nice C3 network you can put a lot of accurate fire downrange and those hits add up) MJ12 fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Feb 10, 2011 |
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Feb 10, 2011 11:21
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Breetai posted:What about the LB10-X? It's pretty much the perfect ballistic weapon. In which situation would LB10-X outperform energy weapons of equal weight? A light mech would be better served with ER PPC and 6 medium lasers in practically all situations.
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Feb 10, 2011 11:49
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Hob_Gadling posted:In which situation would LB10-X outperform energy weapons of equal weight? A light mech would be better served with ER PPC and 6 medium lasers in practically all situations. That's only because you're using the 10 'free' heatsinks that come with the engine. When you factor in the heatsink costs of the weapons, however; LB10-X with 2 tons ammo + enough heatsinks to fire it: 14 tons. ERPPC plus 5 medium lasers, plus enough heatsinks to fire just the medium lasers: 22 tons. Even the ER PPC alone is 14.5 tons (allowing for half a double heatsink for the 15th point of heat) Plus the LB10-X is able to fire cluster munitions at longer ranges. It's like having an SRM-10 system that can hit at 18 hexes. Plus there's the flack bonus against VTOLs, and the +1 bonus against all targets when using cluster rounds. It provides a hole-puncher at range, as well as a crit seeker, also at range. What's there not to like? Yes, a light 'Mech would be better off with the energy weapons. But on heavier designs when you can have more than one large weapon and start generating enough heat to use all of the 10 'free' heatsinks you get with your engine, the LB10-X is an excellent weapon. Put it another way: say you have 20 tons to play with. You can mount 2 ER PPCs and the heatsinks to fire them while running without generating heat. OR, you can mount one ER PPC, plus one LB10-X with one ton of normal and one ton of cluster rounds. While the first option has a little more range on one of the weapons, the second option allows you to greatly improve your chances of scoring criticals at long range (as well as a nice little bonus to to-hit), as well as being the terror of any vehicle. Cluster rounds cripple non-'Mech armour.
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Feb 10, 2011 12:17
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Kenlon posted:I'm assuming this is directed at me. Der Waffle Mous posted:That reminds me, with the embargo on non-macross unseen designs gone, a bunch of folks on the Battletech forums raised some money to finance a new sculpt based on old TDR from Iron Wind. ShadowDragon8685 posted:That said, there's a simple fix:...
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Feb 10, 2011 12:24
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Hob_Gadling posted:In which situation would LB10-X outperform energy weapons of equal weight? A light mech would be better served with ER PPC and 6 medium lasers in practically all situations. What it really comes down to though is that any mech with ammunition is worthless if you factor in flavour. Battles that last for days? The cost efficiency of using lasers compared to LRMS and Autocannons is hilarious. You never run out of ammunition.
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Feb 10, 2011 12:28
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