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I'm having a problem with sizing treats. Daala is about 60 pounds now and and the size of a small Lab. Everything I have read says small treats, but I know no one makes them this small, my liver treats went over awesomely but in an attempt to not give the same treat every time I need more ideas. Do y'all just cut up chicken? How many people actually use/try small bread pieces? Is their anything really unconventional y'all have found that works for your dogs? OH. Although Daala is still having problems with lay and stay she has mastered a trick we call Dance, she stands on her back legs and paws at the sky, pretty awesome.
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Feb 10, 2011 06:06
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Some people just use regular kibble. I know lifeless sometimes gives entire meals through training sessions. You could try like sample size packed of a different kibble if they don't find their regular food to be motivating.
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Feb 10, 2011 06:19
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try cutting string cheese (or other cheese) into itsy bitsy pieces, same with hot dogs, chopped up chicken works well too and if you want to be messy you can smear a dab of peanut butter onto all the pieces, my dog works for bread it is the absolute best thing in the world to her so for very demanding things (like staying in her crate) she does get bits of bread. Make sure your dog doesn't have any allergies to wheat or anything if you're going to be using it. Get creative, anything that isn't actually bad for your dog can be a great training treat. Just remember to scale it appropriately and not go overboard. The sample packs of dog food is also a great idea. I have samples of grain free kinds and Moxie flips for them (not literally but maybe we should work on that)
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Feb 10, 2011 13:05
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Kerfuffle posted:Some people just use regular kibble. I know lifeless sometimes gives entire meals through training sessions. You could try like sample size packed of a different kibble if they don't find their regular food to be motivating. Just never teach them "leave it" with regular kibble  At any rate, you can also try getting soft training treats that you can cut up or tear up into smaller pieces. I've been using the Wellness treats like these: http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/product-details.aspx?pet=dog&pid=85&dm=snack#product You can easily tear them into smaller pieces with your fingers
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Feb 10, 2011 14:30
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Ridonkulous posted:I'm having a problem with sizing treats. The only almost-proper sized treats you can buy are Zuks Minis. But even then I still rip them in half/quarters before I give them to my dog. Lately I've been using Rollovers (they look like giant sausages) that I cut up into tiny pieces, and freeze dried tripe pucks, which I can crush and rip tiny pieces off. Liver treats are nice since you can normally break them into tiny pieces with your fingers. I also like using dehydrated lamb lung, but it can be tough to break apart without a knife. Pretty much if you want to be economical you should expect to spend at least a bit of time cutting the treats into more appropriate sizes. I mix kibble in with the other foods in my bait bag -- it's larger than anything else I use as rewards, just to give you a point of reference. It's fun to get creative and see what your dog really loves. Lunch meat, cheese, bread, chicken, cream cheese, etc are all products I have plenty of that my dog goes nuts for.
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Feb 10, 2011 14:35
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I just use leftover cooked meats (chicken, pork chop, beef roast) and sometimes cheese. Darla is pretty easy to please though and she is fine with kibble, but it doesn't go as far, she fills up on that pretty quick since she's only about 9 pounds.
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Feb 10, 2011 14:47
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a life less posted:Zukes Minis Where is the love for Charlee Bears? Do you have an opinion on them?
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Feb 10, 2011 15:40
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Levitate posted:Just never teach them "leave it" with regular kibble Um, I did this. Why not? The only thing we use that hasn't been said already is (plain) cheerios, which are kind of like bread I guess.
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Feb 10, 2011 17:11
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Just my experience...our pup seemed to jump to associating kibble with the leave it command...without the command. So if we set her food bowl down next to her she'd sniff it and then jump away like we told her "leave it". It's a little hard to tell if she might have just been being a little nutty and had maybe decided she wasn't a fan of the food or something, but we were about to change foods anyways so it didn't matter too much in the end. I fully admit that my dog could just be weird about that one.
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Feb 10, 2011 17:15
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I could see that happening. Eris won't touch any of the treats we used to teach her "leave it" if you set them on the floor in front of her.
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Feb 10, 2011 17:17
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I've been working on recall with Diaz, attention/focus, and in general looking up how to teach new tricks. I realized that I don't have a clue how to start to train for a behavior she hasn't already really shown, apparently my training success with her was just "oh she's doing it YAY REWARD ok keep it up.." and it just..worked. Pretty well. We just moved so I'm taking advantage of the new environment by working on making her sit before going through doors (she doesn't bolt, but it'd be nice if I didn't have to push her back when we DO go through sometimes) and she's doing pretty awesome. Recall is a lot of work but we're getting there. Slowly. Tell me I'm an awful dog owner because I'm re-teaching her to say "marijuana". She speaks, and we used to have her trained to say marijuana, and now that it's just her and I it's become a mission to have her say words. Unfortunately that and "now" are the only ones she currently can do. >.o
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Feb 10, 2011 18:22
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This is a particular vid by Kikopup that teaches long-term behavior modification, to teach a hyper and excitable dog to be calmer in general: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wesm2OpE_2c It's a "big picture" training technique, not a trick - I wish I had seen this a lot earlier. I've been doing some of the things covered in the vid but there's a lot more, and delivered in better ways (e.g. don't click while the dog is asleep or just resting, because that actually makes them excited).
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Feb 10, 2011 21:49
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Kiri koli posted:Did you try being excited about the object and drawing his attention to it? Interacting can be as little at first as just looking or moving in the general direction of something. I guess he isn't doing that if he's staring at you. How long did you try waiting him out? I was mainly seeing how he would interact with it on his own. Definitely something to try tonight. Flesh Forge posted:Keep in mind that if he doesn't really know many tricks, he'll probably stick with stuff he knows works. If he knows that looking at you has gotten him treated consistently in the past and not much else, then that's the main thing he'll offer (not a bad thing at all imo). He does rotate through the list of standard tricks hoping for a result. Last night shaking a paw at the roller got him a click. The thing I am starting to think is that he has gotten the click = treat association, but doesn't seem to realize that repeating what he just did will get him another C/T. Is that something that just comes with time? Or is there a way for me to help him figure that out. And I know he is clever, the bastard figured out how to open a foot pedal garbage can, so he can figure poo poo out. Maybe I should make his reward tiny pieces of snotty kleenex.
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Feb 11, 2011 00:22
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Have you been teaching him verbal cues to associate to certain tricks? Or are you trying to teach something different? edit: never mind I realized what you meant (capturing new behaviors) and I have the same problem, I imagine many people do for certain tricks that are hard to lure, like roll over. Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Feb 11, 2011 |
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Feb 11, 2011 01:08
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Progress. It was a combination of two things. The first was better treats. Got a much better response with some cut up hot dog then with his treats. And secondly, I had accidentally trained him to sit and wait. So we sit for a minute looking at each other, then he starts stressing and panting, then a few seconds later he lays down. Took about 15 minutes to get a passable sit. Feels wonderful when he finally gets it. Edit: And in another 15 we almost have "dance" down. He was starting to get pretty worked up so we didn't get to the voice command part. I'm trying to figure out the best path for a drop it command. He loves tug, and I want to be able to take the toy away on my terms. Do I want to start with a toy that he isn't interested in and work from there? I feel that if I have a treat that is more exciting then his toy, then he won't be interested in the toy for long. Demon_Corsair fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Feb 11, 2011 |
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Feb 11, 2011 07:15
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I have a question about terminology and signals. In my puppy class, the trainer has certain phrases that she uses. Some of them are common and obvious ("Sit! Down! Stand!") but she uses different hand signals. I didn't think that was a problem, but then it turned out when she taught us "Touch" that you pretty much have to use the same gesture I was using for "Down." And then trainers in some of the videos I watch use "off!" for something I would call "leave it" and "out!" for something I would call either "drop it" or "give." Now I know it doesn't matter as long as each individual dog knows what its owner/trainer/handler wants (for instance, a friend of mine, instead of saying "no," says something like "Bwah!" which means I can't tell her dog to get off me because by the time I've remembered the command, she's already gotten the dog). But if I want to get into something like flyball or agility, it looks like it would be better to have standard commands. Rhymes With Clue fucked around with this message at 09:52 on Feb 11, 2011 |
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Feb 11, 2011 09:47
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MrFurious posted:Where is the love for Charlee Bears? Do you have an opinion on them? I love the Charlee Bears but my pup gets bored with them pretty quickly, and starts playing with them instead of eating them. This also means he stops paying attention. When I use little slivers of hot dog, he pays attention. In fact he really gets focused and becomes a good, good dog. And unlike hot dogs, Charlee Bears are a good thing to always have in the pockets, though, since there are some things he always gets a treat for, and he doesn't always need the primo treats--that is, once I've got his attention with a couple of flakes of hot dog, I don't mind giving him lesser treats every now and then.
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Feb 11, 2011 09:50
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Rixatrix posted:I think I will keep working with Look At That type of stuff in spite of Pi's handicap. His increased reactivity seems to be due to him not noticing stimuli until they're close enough for him to be surprised/alarmed. We saw our regular vet yesterday and she couldn't find anything wrong. We have an appointment with the eye doc on Tuesday morning. I'm hoping I can convince her to do the surgery as soon as possible. On the last visit a month ago she thought Pi should still have enough sight left to do ok in normal life, but it's clear to me he's not coping very well. I'm worried that if he has a chance to "practice" aggressive behavior patterns too much before the surgery, he might not turn back into his old self again after his eyes have been fixed. Any suggestions are welcome, though it seems to me this is turning more into a management issue than a training issue.
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Feb 11, 2011 11:15
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Demon_Corsair posted:I'm trying to figure out the best path for a drop it command. He loves tug, and I want to be able to take the toy away on my terms. Do I want to start with a toy that he isn't interested in and work from there? I feel that if I have a treat that is more exciting then his toy, then he won't be interested in the toy for long. Cohen has a marvelous drop which I taught her when she was just a few months old. I did it this way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9mPoWuvnLg Re: Kikopup saying that you need to be careful of your dog's arousal, to start out that might be true, but if you're doing advanced sports (agility, flyball, dock diving, etc) you want your dog pretty crazy for that toy and in a high state of arousal. The key is, in my opinion, training a really solid drop that your dog understands regardless of its state of arousal. Rhymes with Clue posted:I have a question about terminology and signals. In my puppy class, the trainer has certain phrases that she uses. Some of them are common and obvious ("Sit! Down! Stand!") but she uses different hand signals. I didn't think that was a problem, but then it turned out when she taught us "Touch" that you pretty much have to use the same gesture I was using for "Down." My guess is your cue for Down is pointing at the ground? That's a pretty natural way to teach it, and if my dog is close to me I'll still point at the ground for a down (I also don't have a physical signal for a touch, just a verbal). But the proper sign for a Down is you standing straight, your arm raised level with your shoulder and out to the side, with your forearm pointing up. It's kind of militaristic in its appearance. All basic hand signals are performed above the waist. Historically, out in the field there would be brush obscuring the bottom portion of the handler if the dog was out at a distance -- you would have difficulty getting your dog to down if you were pointing down but were obscured. Your signals can be whatever you want, really. Having everyone using the same signal makes training classes easier, and some conventions are conventions because they work. If you want to change, for instance, your dog's hand signal for down I would first get him to the point where he's responding to the verbal, then start adding the new hand signal in. Dogs normally learn the "pointing at the ground means down" then "the word down means down" then "when he or she points up and says the word down it means down" and finally if you want to do a command wordlessly "pointing up means down". I hope that makes sense. My "out" cue is a bit different than the "leave it/drop it" cue, but it's pretty much situational. And my "off" cue is to get off an obstacle. As long as you remember the words your using for your dog, you're good. As for not being able to manage other people's dogs, that's unfortunate, but it's just kind of how it happens. Try your best to say what you mean physically -- like turning your back if the dog jumps.) Agility and Flyball don't have that many standardized cues. The cues tend to come from body gestures and movement, and many of the obstacles and behaviours are shaped. But if you have any questions about specific cues and the corresponding word/gesture ask away! Rixatrix posted:Any suggestions are welcome, though it seems to me this is turning more into a management issue than a training issue. It sounds like it might be time to turn to chemicals. Have you considered DAP diffusers or collars? Maybe talk to your trainer/vet about some other options. I would be similarly worried -- that the aggressive behaviour is patterning and may continue after his sight is improved. Do your best at pushing his surgery date up. In the mean time, manage manage manage. Has Rho caught on to what might be up? I know some dogs can be super helpful with blind dogs as far as guiding and helping them. Any behaviour changes with your younger guy?
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Feb 11, 2011 15:17
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a life less posted:Has Rho caught on to what might be up? I know some dogs can be super helpful with blind dogs as far as guiding and helping them. Any behaviour changes with your younger guy? Rho seems to be mostly confused about Pi's behavior. He's less active around Pi (not initiating play as much etc) and seems a bit intimidated by him. Outside when Pi barks/growls at random things, Rho will spin around and look for whatever it is that he should be worried about and then settles to bark at the general direction Pi is looking. This morning when we got closer to the trash can of doom, Pi was suddenly ok with it (he probably identified it then), but Rho was still unsure. He only settled when he got close enough to sniff and touch it.
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Feb 11, 2011 16:54
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a life less posted:Cohen has a marvelous drop which I taught her when she was just a few months old. I did it this way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9mPoWuvnLg Clearly, I should spend more time digging through her videos. I bookmarked a bunch, but missed that one. I've never really looked into dog sports for Monty. He is pretty lazy and usually the most he will run is 15-20 feet then he decides that he has enough of that. Even if he is chasing a squirrel or bird. Is there a list of these hand signals anywhere? Also, I think the thread title should be changed to "How do I train my dog to...[clicker training is goddamn magic]"
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Feb 11, 2011 17:41
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Rixatrix posted:I've been skeptical about the DAP stuff, but I guess it can't hurt to try. Thanks for reminding me about it, I'll pick some up tomorrow. If the surgery is going to be postponed a lot, I'm going to ask the vet about psychopharmaceuticals. Pi seems really unhappy at times, crawling into crates on his own and such, which he never usually does. I hate to see him like that.  We sympathize with your and Pi's growing problems. It's always hard when the dog is spooked by otherwise inane things because you just want to explain to them that there really is no possible threat there. My husband reported that this morning Psyche climbed a mountain of snow and was spooked by her own shadow on the other side. It's both silly and serious at the same time.I don't know if you saw my post on prozac a while back, but I do recommend trying it if you're considering prescription drugs. After Psyche was on it for about four weeks, we really noticed a change (and her trainer and classmates did as well) and it was all positive. She's still a rambunctious little puppy, very hyper and playful, but it is a lot easier for her to relax after being spooked. Small things set her off less and this is on a minimal dose. So if your vet recommends it, I think it's worth a try. My vet told me and everything I've read suggests that side effects are very uncommon.
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Feb 11, 2011 17:53
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Demon_Corsair posted:Is there a list of these hand signals anywhere? I couldn't find a list of hand signals that I liked. This one is the only one that I felt came close (though they say point at the ground for down, not the raised hand -- it's more logical, but for some reason it's just not how it's done). The official signals as I know them are like this: Come: Arm out to your side, bring it in to your opposite shoulder. Stay: Open palm passed over your dog's line of sight, or if the dog is at a distance, out like you're stopping traffic. Heel: Left arm bent at the elbow and held against your body. (If I want my dog to get into heel position I'll open my left hand while it's at my side.) Sit: Hand brought up to your chest, closed fist. Down: Either pointing at the ground, or arm out to the side, bent at wrist, forearm pointing up, hand open. Stand: Palm up, lifted up in a sort of "get up" motion. I was at the beach a few days ago and I called Cohen to me and had her sit with signals while I talked to a woman. I didn't want to stop the conversation, so I just did the signal without verbal. This woman was oddly impressed -- she asked which school I went to. Signaling your dog silently seems to impress a lot of people. The funny bit is that dogs respond to signals much more readily than voice.
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Feb 11, 2011 18:18
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a life less posted:I couldn't find a list of hand signals that I liked. This one is the only one that I felt came close (though they say point at the ground for down, not the raised hand -- it's more logical, but for some reason it's just not how it's done). haha, yea, I've heard that as well, so there has always been a hand signal involved with commands. From that site, this blurb seems off. quote:4. Dogs are not always nearby. If your dog runs off, if you are running an agility course, or if you are hunting in the field, your dog may not hear your verbal command. Don't most dogs have much better hearing then vision? I guess a key component of this is training him so that when he hears his name to focus on you. Would definitely be nice to be able to command him with hand signals when he is at the other end of the dog park.
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Feb 11, 2011 18:48
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Kiri koli posted:We sympathize with your and Pi's growing problems. It's always hard when the dog is spooked by otherwise inane things because you just want to explain to them that there really is no possible threat there.  I'm definitely going to ask about the Prozac if we can't get the surgery soon. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
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Feb 11, 2011 22:20
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Had a pretty cool training moment with the "Touch" trick I've been doing with Darla for some time (touch your nose to my finger) - she's gotten pretty flexible about what she'll do the trick with, e.g. if it's a different hand, different finger or thumb, different position of the finger etc. I put my hands behind my back, left my face near her and said "Touch" and she touched her nose to my nose. While it's pretty hypoglycemic, it was also pretty cool that she generalized "huh, no fingers ... well I guess that's kinda like a finger *touch*"
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Feb 11, 2011 22:25
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Rixatrix posted:Then again, it seems I've invited a lot of people to comment on my skills as "alpha" or a leader to Pi ("He wouldn't have to be afraid if he thought he could trust you!") (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 11, 2011 22:26
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How can I polish up Darla's "Roll Over"? Right now she very consistently does it, but it's tied to her having a toy in her mouth - she was rolling onto her back all the time anyway when playing with a toy because she loves to have me rub her tummy while she's chewing on a toy. I've hosed up somewhat because I already put a command word on it ("Roll over!") but how can I get her to do it without the prop? Mental note to not assign a command word until I have the behavior nailed down.
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Feb 12, 2011 02:42
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I'd just start over without the toy and use a treat lure (have her lay down, bring the treat around her shoulder/back so she follows it with her head. She should start rolling over, etc) Might want to not use the word for it until she starts catching on to what you're doing, but I'm not sure if that matters too much...just might confuse her at first if she's really attached to the toy aspect. a life less would probably have a better idea with that. But yeah I'd just break it down to the basics again, I bet she'll catch on quick
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Feb 12, 2011 02:50
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Thanks, that sounds pretty practical, I'll try that. I wish I was 20 years younger and comfortably wealthy, I think she'd be an awesome sports dog if I had the stamina to keep up with her and full time to train her and travel to events. She's running really tight little figure eights around the saplings out in the back yard, fast as poo poo. I'm probably gonna rig up a chase toy on a fishing pole so she can run full bore and I won't have a heart attack.
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Feb 12, 2011 03:00
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Will she not do the roll over at all without the toy? Or just won't complete it? I mean you might just be able to build off what she's doing without the toy, have her complete the action and then click and treat and she'll catch on
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Feb 12, 2011 03:03
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I don't think she'll do it at all without the toy, but I haven't tried too hard to go forward with that yet. I asked a few times without a toy, from Sit and Down poses and she started to get frustrated so I left it alone until I could get some advice.
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Feb 12, 2011 03:18
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Yeah I'd probably just start over from scratch. She sounds like she picks things up quickly so it won't be that bad. Do you know the method I was talking about? I can probably dig up a youtube link about it or something
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Feb 12, 2011 03:20
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I think I can figure it out but a vid wouldn't hurt - I can look for it myself though, don't worry about it. I don't really have anything to compare to because I've never properly trained a dog before but she sure seems smart to me. I actually think I need to start using an alternate sound to the clicker because she's so drat perceptive she almost always catches me getting ready to fire it, whether because she sees my hand going into my pocket, sees the clicker in my hand, or sometimes just because she can't see both of my hands and figures something must be up. Trying to think of something with a precise sound that I can trigger without my hands, I dunno what. Thanks for the advice 
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Feb 12, 2011 03:29
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Flesh Forge posted:
I agree that you probably need to teach roll over again to Darla, it seems the toy in her mouth has become part of the cue for that trick. Teaching it again should be easier, because after all, she's familiar with how to do it now
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Feb 12, 2011 08:57
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Great Thread! Lots of useful information in here. Not sure I saw the trick mentioned here, but I taught my GSD to jump into the bathtub on command. Makes giving him a bath a breeze. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_EA54t51S4 Stay and touch are all the groundwork you need for getting him to do it. In the beginning I put him in a stay (already in the bathroom), then with the touch command, make him touch my hand near the bathtub. If your dog has bad memories of the bathtub, or just hates it, start farther away from the tub. Repetition is all it takes, gradually move closer and closer to the tub. Once he/she is reliably touching, then move your hand where the dog has to jump into the tub to touch. Reward...then repeat. Then repeat some more, and add the command "bath". Repeat with just the hand signal for touch, with teh bath command. Repeat repeat repeat. Now stop using the hand signal for touch, and only the voice command. Repeat and you should have it now. I started this with Panzer (My black GSD) when he was really young (like 12 weeks, after which he already knew the sit/down/stay/touch) he picked it up pretty quickly.
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Feb 12, 2011 13:37
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This morning I gave Darla a ham bone, and it seems she has a healthy streak of resource guarding in her - she's very calm around me, at my feet right now gnawing it, and I can touch her and she won't react. Our schnauzer walked past though and Darla ran her off from the bone in a way that wasn't playful at all (tail down, different bark). While not a substitue for the full-length book, I found this article that draws from the book "Mine!" referred to in the reading section of the OP: http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/resource-guarding/ When I get a little more spare cash I'll be picking that book up.
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Feb 12, 2011 17:24
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We've been having a big of a begging problem, and I'm hoping to find the best way to address it. When we adopted our cattle dog, Ginny, she was a fat little thing, weighing in at over fifty pounds. It became immediately apparent that she was used to being fed from the table-- she went absolutely bonkers when I opened up a can of soup her first afternoon home. She would bark at us, whine, put her front paws on the table, and cause a general ruckus. Over the past three months, we've been treating it by completely ignoring the behavior. No eye contact, no scolding, no touching-- when she barks at us while eating we turn away, when she tries to take food from our plates we just slide the plates away so she can't reach. And it was working really well. After a week or so she started tuning down the barking to whining, then grumbling, and finally just big, sad sighs. Up until last night I thought we had our problem just about solved-- she's taken to lying calmly under the table at dinner time. Then, last night, she completely and totally forgot all of that. We made enchiladas, and were sitting in a slightly more relaxed pose at the dinner table, chairs pulled out slightly, not on guard at all, which I kind of blame for what happened next. Ginny suddenly leapt up right into my boyfriend's lap (all forty-three pounds of her) and snatched his enchilada right off of his plate. He grabbed most of it right back, as she's not food-aggressive and doesn't resource guard at all, but she still made off with a big chunk of tortilla and a whole lot of cheese. My question is... how badly did this set us back? She's gone three months without ever getting a scrap of food from the table, and then last night she hit the jackpot. Are we going to be starting over at square one with the barking and begging? Is there something better we should be doing to curb this behavior other than ignoring it?
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Feb 12, 2011 18:42
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Ginny Field posted:My question is... how badly did this set us back? She's gone three months without ever getting a scrap of food from the table, and then last night she hit the jackpot. Are we going to be starting over at square one with the barking and begging? Is there something better we should be doing to curb this behavior other than ignoring it? Ignoring it will work but its going to take a really long time. What I've done instead is teach my dog that if I'm doing something food related that he needs to be on a mat away from the table/kitchen counters. First I taught him that the mat was an awesome place to be and how to go there on cue (here's a kikopup video explaining that). Then while I was eating he would get lots of awesome rewards for standing on the mat instead of standing with his nose on my plate. Eventually I raised criteria to having his head down and relaxing instead of fixating on my food. After a month or so of practice now he'll often fall asleep on his mat during meals.
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Feb 12, 2011 21:13
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Instant Jellyfish posted:Ignoring it will work but its going to take a really long time. What I've done instead is teach my dog that if I'm doing something food related that he needs to be on a mat away from the table/kitchen counters. First I taught him that the mat was an awesome place to be and how to go there on cue (here's a kikopup video explaining that). Then while I was eating he would get lots of awesome rewards for standing on the mat instead of standing with his nose on my plate. Eventually I raised criteria to having his head down and relaxing instead of fixating on my food. After a month or so of practice now he'll often fall asleep on his mat during meals. Thanks for the tip! I am going to start working on that technique with her. I was happy that tonight she didn't immediately revert to bossy barky begging mode, but was fairly calm and laid at our feet the way she's been doing for the past month or so. I really wonder if she just saw an opening last night because we were sitting back from the table and not at all ready for her to spring into action. But, that said, I don't want to spend every single mealtime from now on hunched protectively over my plate in case she gets it into her head to leap up and swipe my dinner, so training her to rest calmly somewhere that isn't right next to all the delicious food sounds like a great idea.
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Feb 13, 2011 03:28
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